SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[Cactus Pete]

If we do Sailing-Masonry after CS-Slingshot, GLH should come 7 turns after CS - that's revolt on turn T, Sailing finished on T+4, whip lighthouse without penalty on T+5, and chop GLH on T+6. Understood. Presume you are suggesting Construction be delayed for this.

There's one time where the returns diminish, but after that, they're constant for a long time. After Currency, we get 4 trade routes per city. In my practice games, I had a hard time getting foreign trade routes for all my cities, due to knowing only 2-3 other AI. We're killing Shaka, so we're starting at 0 known foreign cities. By the time we have 6 cities, we want to know 24 foreign cities. That's at least four additional civs within pre-Astronomy sailing limits. How likely is that? The point, I guess, is that we gain considerably for every one that we can find, and the sooner, the bigger the gain.

Well, we wont be able to build a galley til we have Sailing, and that's about 25 turns away. And GLH takes priority over a galley, I assume. GLH is in only one city, but the point is well taken: it will be awhile before we can build a galley. We could, however, build a workboat (our second, and it already has a few hammers in it) immediately after a second axe is completed in PHcity, and I prefer that tactic.

What if we use the spear to fortify next to the copper; the axe roams the forests south of Ulundi to stop workers from chopping or roading (and if he's built a city next to the horse, axe can still stop the horse hook-up); one warrior goes to pop the hut, if it's still there, and continues to explore that peninsula; the warrior that is currently guarding the copper explores the land west of Ulundi.

That covers all the bases, but it leaves absolutely no margin for untoward events, such as the axe or spear being attacked by multiple archers or the warrior exploring west of Ulundi blundering into an archer and leaving that base uncovered long term.

This decision on whether to build an axe or workboat next in PHcity seems pretty important, so I'm not going to continue play until I know that I can't win the arguement. My Saturday morning just got freed up, anyway.

 

[ShannonCT]

Understood. Presume you are suggesting Construction be delayed for this.

We need the time between CS and Construction to build the required axemen anyway.

That's at least four additional civs within pre-Astronomy sailing limits. How likely is that? The point, I guess, is that we gain considerably for every one that we can find, and the sooner, the bigger the gain.

Exactly. Since the rate that we find AI cities isn't likely to keep pace with the number we need to maximize trade route income, finding AI earlier has significant value.

We could, however, build a workboat (our second, and it already has a few hammers in it) immediately after a second axe is completed in PHcity, and I prefer that tactic.

The immediate part is a problem. Putting two more units in the field right now increases our total maintenance to -2, which is manageable. Putting the third additional unit in the field when our total population is 7 or 8 makes our maintenance jump to -4.

Getting to a total population of 9 gives us 1 additional free unit on the maintenance side. On the unit supply side, population doesn't matter. Unit supply kicks in with the 7th unit in the field. 2 axes + 2 warriors + 1 spear + 2 workboats = 7. If we could get one of our warriors out of the field, it would be easier to bear a 2nd axe and a 2nd workboat. And after the workers outside our borders complete their current roads, they should try to stay within our borders.

 

[Cactus Pete]

We need the time between CS and Construction to build the required axemen anyway. Follow that.

Exactly. Since the rate that we find AI cities isn't likely to keep pace with the number we need to maximize trade route income, finding AI earlier has significant value. And that.

The immediate part is a problem. Putting two more units in the field right now increases our total maintenance to -2, which is manageable. Putting the third additional unit in the field when our total population is 7 or 8 makes our maintenance jump to -4.

Getting to a total population of 9 gives us 1 additional free unit on the maintenance side. On the unit supply side, population doesn't matter. Unit supply kicks in with the 7th unit in the field. 2 axes + 2 warriors + 1 spear + 2 workboats = 7. If we could get one of our warriors out of the field, it would be easier to bear a 2nd axe and a 2nd workboat. And after the workers outside our borders complete their current roads, they should try to stay within our borders.

Are you sure that it doesn't kick in at six and eight, rather than 5 and 7? I'm going to look at the save in an hour or so and see if there's a way to get the axe out soon followed by a workboat and still stay within a maintenance of -2 (at least most of the time). Might, for instance, put hammers into both without finishing them or getting them out of cultural border until can control maintenance. Would that allay most of your concern? Really appreciate your input.

 

[rrau]

I vaguely seem to remember that you want to keep even numbers in the field for maximum gold efficency.....Not sure where I rember that from, but it would suggest to me that maintenance rises on the odd numbers?

 

[killercane]

Tech speed is the key to this game= workboat.

Research outline:

Math->Myst->Meditation (or Poly if possible)->Priesthood->Code of Laws->CS (free)->Sailing->Masonry->Construction->Aesthetics (if no foreign AIs met and we research poly; Poly research if we take med early; Currency if we meet several AI, and then Alphabet to get gold via trade to keep research high)->Literature->Paper or Metalcasting depending on when we get a scientist for Education.

Remember if we find another AI turn ALL SPY POINTS TO THEM and not Shaka.

 

[ShannonCT]

You guys are right. Unit supply goes up on even numbers. So putting a 7th unit in the field doesn't raise unit supply cost. Building the extra unit raises unit maintenance. So we probably can't afford both the 2nd wb and the 2nd axe until total pop reaches 9. Can the 2nd axe wait that long?

 

[Cactus Pete]

You guys are right. Unit supply goes up on even numbers. So putting a 7th unit in the field doesn't raise unit supply cost. Building the extra unit raises unit maintenance. So we probably can't afford both the 2nd wb and the 2nd axe until total pop reaches 9. Can the 2nd axe wait that long?

Or, can the second workboat wait that long? I'm going to have a look at the save and see how many turns to pop9.

 

[ShannonCT]

Or, can the second workboat wait that long? I'm going to have a look at the save and see how many turns to pop9.

It's hard to know when/if the second wb would meet another AI. So I can't say that we need a second wb by turn X.

What about the second axe? Is there a point where it becomes necessary to have it in Zululand?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Looked at the save. We will complete an axe next turn and there is agreement that we should begin a workboat in the capital, which will complete in six turns -- giving us nine units. Whether we build a workboat or an axe in PHcity, it will complete in 5 to 6 or 7 turns, so, regardless, at the end of six or seven turns we will have 10 units. We won't get to pop9 until 8 turns (actually we'll get to 10 about then -- Does 10 further reduce maintenance?). By the time we get another unit (either wkbt or axe) built in PHcity, we will have pop10. Seems we're going to incur unit maintenance costs of two gold for one or two turns, whatever we build. Regarding supply costs: I can keep that at 0 until we are at pop9/10 by halting the capital wkbt inside our northern cultural border for one turn.

In sum, I think the maintenance costs are manageable. The question remains whether to build a second axe in 7 turns and a wkbt in 3 more or to build a wkbt in 5 and an axe in 5 more.

Since that decision didn't have to be made until the first axe is completed next turn. I went ahead and finished the turn -- starting a wkbt in the capital and completing the axe -- just in case something significant happened. Nothing did, other than an archer coming east out of Ulundi again to glare at our warrior, now fortified on the forested hill. We are the sixth (out of 8) most powerful civ in the world. Skaka is fourth.

Would like to finish my set in about 8 hours. Understand that gold from trade income for research is critical, but taking out Shaka quickly and efficiently is too. I'm still for axe>wkbt. Would add to my argument that we won't have six cities for a while, so we won't need max AIs for a while, and there's no guarantee they're available to wkbt exploration, but Shaka's potential to slow us down is a more real and present problem.

 

[Cactus Pete]

It's hard to know when/if the second wb would meet another AI. So I can't say that we need a second wb by turn X.

What about the second axe? Is there a point where it becomes necessary to have it in Zululand?

Again, hard to know, and, like the wkbt, there's a possibility it could turn out to be a luxury, so necessity is not what I'm arguing. However, I want it ASAP as both a backup for untoward events occurring and to gain knowledge of what Shaka is up to. In addition, there's the possibility of popping the hut, exploring our continent, and meeting continental AIs.

Got to sleep. Would like input from as many as possible before I resume playing.

 

[leif erikson]

Again, hard to know, and, like the wkbt, there's a possibility it could turn out to be a luxury, so necessity is not what I'm arguing. However, I want it ASAP as both a backup for untoward events occurring and to gain knowledge of what Shaka is up to. In addition, there's the possibility of popping the hut, exploring our continent, and meeting continental AIs.

Got to sleep. Would like input from as many as possible before I resume playing.

I think the immediate need of Shaka and potential contingencies outweighs the future possibilities of meeting other civs. Axe first and then Work Boat for me.

However, I think the need to meet other civs is important enough to send the western most Warrior to pop the hut, if it is still there, and then on to recon for other civs. If the hut is popped, then we know someone else has to be out there so we can go and find them.

Hope you had a restful ...

 

[ShannonCT]

I'm ok with axe first. Just avoid letting gpt go below -3.

Next free unit comes at total pop of 13.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Okay, think I can keep maintenance at -2 or below unless barbs or some random event shows up.

Playing now. Will post if events dictate.

 

[Cactus Pete]

SGOTM08 REPORT FOR TURNS 51-60 On track for Academy on 66 and Oracle on 71, but not home free.


51: Start axe in PHcity and continue with roading west and development plan

IBT: Archer retreats again and Ulundi grows to 5

52: Move warrior onto forested hill 2S of Ulundi and find no improvements. [Now, strongly suspect existence of Zulu city to the NW.]

IBT: Math comes in; Ulundi slaved to size 3 [guessing a settler]

53: Begin Mysticism

54: No surprises; continue moving units west.

IBT: Myst comes in, begin Med

55: Unfettered progress

IBT: “Floods wash out routes near Ulundi.”

56: Wkbt finishes in capital, begin barracks; move axe adjacent to Ulundi and find 3 archers there

IBT: Now 4 archers in Ulundi

57: Sail wkbt north; decide things in Zululand are under control, so switch from axe to wkbt in PHcity

IBT: Med comes in, begin Priesthood; PHcity grows to 3; capital to pop 7

58: Move axe and warrior to forested hill west of Ulundi and see cultural borders of Zulu city to NW, also evidence that two forests have been chopped; change capital build to settler

59: No problems

IBT: Priesthood researched, begin CoL

60: Fogbust with the worker from cows (might want to do this every turn for a while); wkbt completed in PHcity and switch back to complete axe despite maintenance concerns (but, of course, we could choose to begin Orcle immediately); move axe north and discover 2nd Zulu city . . . interesting, see save below:

There are no Zulu units operating in the fog east of Ulundi. I have left three of our units around Ulundi unmoved this turn, pending discussion.

Here is the save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=191098&stc=1&d=1223742834

Queries:
Can we tell or estimate when, or if, Shaka researches Sailing and is able to build impis in Ulundi?
How much will it slow us to run research at 90% so we can incur higher maintenance costs?

 

[rrau]

We've got to take out UMgungundlovu ASAP. It's on copper.

 

[Cactus Pete]

We've got to take out UMgungundlovu ASAP. It's on copper.

Hard to do that anytime soon. Archers in a hill city are extremely difficult to kill with axes. Enough to do the job would raise maintenance costs through the roof and jeopardize our development.

 

[ShannonCT]

Hard to do that anytime soon. Archers in a hill city are extremely difficult to kill with axes. Enough to do the job would raise maintenance costs through the roof and jeopardize our development.

Right now, it's "archer" (singular). Looks like there's another archer on its way to the copper city that could be picked off by our axe if it leaves the forest. If we can get a CR1 axe and our spear to the city before he gets a second unit there, we'd have a good chance to raze it. The warriors can guard the copper and horse near Ulundi. We might as well make a move that way. Shaka will start whipping axes/impis if we do nothing. The axe about to be built in PH City can block the land bridge and make sure no impis get through. And we'll have good advanced warning if Shaka tries a naval maneuver.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Recent history suggests that the archer will not move toward our axe, but, if he does and moves onto the rice, then if we choose to attack, aren't we likely lose our axe on the next turn, even if we kill the archer? If we lose that axe soon, it will be difficult to keep both the horses from getting hooked up and a new mine from being built on the copper hill.

What will the odds be of our axe against the hilltop archer and, again, can we know anything about Shaka's research on Sailing?

 

[ShannonCT]

Recent history suggests that the archer will not move toward our axe, but, if he does and moves onto the rice, then if we choose to attack, aren't we likely lose our axe on the next turn, even if we kill the archer? If we lose that axe soon, it will be difficult to keep both the horses from getting hooked up and a new mine from being built on the copper hill.

Yes, we shouldn't attack the archer if he is next to several other archers. If the archer goes for the tile adjacent, we attack. If the archer goes to the rice, we can move to the forest to give him a clear path to the copper city, and then attack him when he's on the plains south of the city. The spear, and perhaps the westernmost warrior can start moving toward the copper city. If Shaka builds an axe in the capital, we don't want our spear sitting next to the capital. There are several blips on Shaka's recent power graph that could be Sailing.

What will the odds be of our axe against the hilltop archer...?

Without any promos, the axe will be ~15% to kill the archer - not worth the risk IMO. But with the spear and warrior backing him up, the odds are in our favor.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Yes, we shouldn't attack the archer if he is next to several other archers. If the archer goes for the tile adjacent, we attack. If the archer goes to the rice, we can move to the forest to give him a clear path to the copper city, and then attack him when he's on the plains south of the city. Concur. The spear, and perhaps the westernmost warrior can start moving toward the copper city. If Shaka builds an axe in the capital, we don't want our spear sitting next to the capital. Yes, and our warriors are pretty helpless against either an axe or an impi. If we keep either warriors or spears in Zululand, they may soon need to be paired with an axe.There are several blips on Shaka's recent power graph that could be Sailing. Not pleased to learn that.

Without any promos, the axe will be ~15% to kill the archer - not worth the risk IMO. Concur. But with the spear and warrior backing him up, the odds are in our favor. QUOTE] You've worked this out? At 15%, I'd expect there to be a fairly high probabilty that not much damage would be done. Like to know just what the odds are with and without the addition of the warrior. An alternate course of action would be to try to prevent horse hook up and chariots and to try to minimize impi production by denying some chopping and delaying the mining of the copper hill. We would need the axe (and the new one) to accomplish that. [/