SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[Cactus Pete]

If you can just harass Shaka from a forest hill that should buy us time. I cant see any screenshots but pillaging and losing the warrior does not do any good. Glad we stole that worker! Now we just have to keep him from building anything other than archers for the next 30 some odd turns and we will be on easy street.

That's a tall order, but will try.

Playing now, will post before retiring.

 

[Cactus Pete]

SGOTM08 REPORT FOR TURNS 44-50BC The AI is puzzling.


44: After consultation, warrior moved 1N

IBT: Archer moves out of city again, but -- as SCT suggested might be the case – not wisely. He moved due east of the city, which will allow our warrior to move onto the copper hill and pillage it (perhaps sacrificing himself as a result).

45: Warrior to copper, revealing three clams (all operating with fish nets) and rice (farmed) within his fat cross. [Suspect our administrator has intentionally given Skaka the ability to use slavery to great effect.] Two archers and a worker in the city of pop 4. Seeing three archers and a worker already in position, knowing our warrior is unlikely to remain standing, and fearing Shaka’s potential impi and worker factory, I alter plan and delay growth of PHcity one turn in order to get axe out ASAP.

IBT: Archers all remain in city; Shaka’s worker sent to road rice.

46: PHcity produces warrior (sent west to fog bust) and begins workboat; capital grows to pop5, completes library and begins warrior (for future MP duty), and begins running a scientist; warrior pillages copper mine, gaining 12 gold (which will be needed if we build extra military units).

IBT: Archer moves NW out of city, pinning warrior down.

47: Warrior move SE onto forest where he will have a better chance of survival; copper hooked and PHcity (having expanded) switches to axe, while two workers pasture cows.

IBT: Archer retreats back into city (Isn’t Shaka aggressive?).

48: Fortify warrior in place to monitor situation (anticipate worker with archer escort will begin roading to copper hill next turn); cows pastured;

IBT: Archer again moves out of city, but alone and due east, challenging our warrior.

49: Move warrior to forested hill (and wonder where Shaka’s worker has gone)

IBT: Archer again retreats into city.

50: Capital produces spearman (to be quickly replaced as MP by fog-busting warrior, so he can move toward Zululand or act as more powerful fogbuster) and grows to pop6 -- now running two scientists;

Getting late, so will stop in mid-turn and invite consultation, especially regarding:
1) what to build in capital (considering wkbt, barracks, and axe)
2) how to deploy our two warriors in Zululand
3) what to build in PHcity after the axe (continue wkbt, axe, or barax)
BTW, there is no worker on the copper unless he disembarked from a galley. I am suspicious that he has been roading toward the horses for the last two turns.

Here is the save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=190963&stc=1&d=1223617679

 

[ShannonCT]

Everything seems to be going swimmingly CP. Ulundi is going to make a fabulous GP farm, especially with so many forests for chopping GLib and NE.

1) Capital should build a workboat I think. With the axe coming from PH City and the spear about to be freed up, we have enough units to stifle Shaka. The workboat is overdue.

2) Since the axeman can be on the horses in 8 turns or on the copper in 9, I suggest we send the second warrior toward the horses, and if Shaka hasn't started a road down that way, the warrior should explore west. If he has started a road, wait long enough for the axe and spear to get there. Keep an eye on unit supply cost. If unit supply goes above zero, we have too many workers outside our borders.

3) I'd say a workboat here as well. There are many directions to explore. The only negative is that unit maintenance/supply are going to start creeping in. Once we have the axe and spear guarding the copper and horses, can we move the warrior back home?

 

[Mad Professor]

Everything seems to be going swimmingly CP. Ulundi is going to make a fabulous GP farm, especially with so many forests for chopping GLib and NE.

I think I'm about to be quite agreeable in this post. Let's start here. I agree! We're still fairly well on target for the slingshot, and developing the coutryside quickly because of our nice worker force, and we're looking fairly optimistically at keeping Shaka hobbled. Nicely done, CP.

1) Capital should build a workboat I think. With the axe coming from PH City and the spear about to be freed up, we have enough units to stifle Shaka. The workboat is overdue.

Yes. We need at least one workboat somewhere very soon, and as long as we can keep Shaka hooking the horses and copper, we have enough units to hassle him.

Has he settled a second city yet? Need to watch it if so. Don't want him hooking something we don't know about yet, or something we're not watching, and getting a nasty surprise in the form of a chariot running our axe into the gutter of some road in Zululand... (for example)

2) Since the axeman can be on the horses in 8 turns or on the copper in 9, I suggest we send the second warrior toward the horses, and if Shaka hasn't started a road down that way, the warrior should explore west. If he has started a road, wait long enough for the axe and spear to get there. Keep an eye on unit supply cost. If unit supply goes above zero, we have too many workers outside our borders.

It's a real shame we lost that scout. The warrior going west might help our lack there. Not a bad idea. And this also gets us another look at those horses. I want to know what that Zulu worker is doing. Reduces the chances of the kind of surprise I was talking about above.

3) I'd say a workboat here as well. There are many directions to explore. The only negative is that unit maintenance/supply are going to start creeping in. Once we have the axe and spear guarding the copper and horses, can we move the warrior back home?

How urgent is the second workboat? Yes, we do need to explore much. It's good to be talking about the financial effects of the decisions we make. We can't afford to slow off the Oracle date. Let's make sure we keep rolling towards that as quickly as practical.

 

[leif erikson]

Looking Good CP!

We have free support for 9 units and we have 8 currently, with 20 turns to our target date for Oracle and 42 gold to use. Looks like we'll make it OK.

Getting Work Boats out scouting is a great idea. On deploying forces, I think the Axe to sit on the copper and the Spear to the hill next to the Horses. One Warrior watches Horses until Spear arrivers and then goes on recon. The other Warrior can back up the Axe on the Copper, or return home for MP duty while we sends another Axe to Ulundi area?

Ulundi sure looks like a nice place to take! With all that food, he'll be able to pump out Archers for defense. Looks like taking Ulundi should be a priority after the CS sling. Should we prioritize Iron Working after Masonry and Sailing, or, if we meet some other civs, Alphabet and try to trade?

Keep up the good work.

 

[ShannonCT]

How urgent is the second workboat? Yes, we do need to explore much. It's good to be talking about the financial effects of the decisions we make. We can't afford to slow off the Oracle date. Let's make sure we keep rolling towards that as quickly as practical.

We do want to explore as much as possible now - not only for the long-term strategic advantages, but for the financial advantages as well. Great Lighthouse is worth a lot more if we have open borders with some off-continent AI.

I looked at unit cost a bit more. With a total population of 8, we can support 3 warriors, 1 spear, 1 axe, 4 workers, and 1 workboat for free (no unit maintenance). With a population of 9, we can support 1 more unit. So it's important to keep both of our cities growing. At a total population of 8-10, we have free unit supply for 5 units. So if we had 2 warriors, 1 spear, 1 axe, and 2 workboats outside of our borders, it would cost us 1 gpt. This is confirms my earlier suspicion that we should try to bring a warrior back home after we have the axe and spear in place.

 

[ShannonCT]

Ulundi sure looks like a nice place to take! With all that food, he'll be able to pump out Archers for defense. Looks like taking Ulundi should be a priority after the CS sling. Should we prioritize Iron Working after Masonry and Sailing, or, if we meet some other civs, Alphabet and try to trade?

Construction will allow us to take down Shaka the quickest. While we're teching Sailing-Masonry-Construction, we can build 4-6 more axes. Combined with 3-4 cats, we'll have enough to take out Shaka's archers.

 

[killercane]

Well this is really starting to look nice. Shaka's capital really makes our strategy easy IMO through turn 100. Assuming we take out Shaka, from turns 85-100 we can concentrate on:

Ulundi can build Pyramids, National Epic, and Great Library and handle our short to mid term scientist needs. If it pops an engineer, great!

PH city can build Shwedagon Paya at some point to give us Pacifism in Ulundi.

The capital can build merchant producing wonders like Lighthouse and Colossus.

We also will need to expand to at least 6 cities asap for Oxford.

I also think we should build a couple workboats immediately to find some more AI.

 

[leif erikson]

Construction will allow us to take down Shaka the quickest. While we're teching Sailing-Masonry-Construction, we can build 4-6 more axes. Combined with 3-4 cats, we'll have enough to take out Shaka's archers.

OK, I agree with you. In , Cats are not as powerful as they are in the other versions. My other thought was that if we can get some melee units with some City Raider experience, they will make great Maces and Grenadiers, should we get that far in the tech tree.

It will be nice to get to Paper, and map trading, so we cna see where Wonders have been built and whether we need Astronomy, or not. Given our quick research to Civil Service and the relatively inexpensive Paper, we should consider this after we secure Ulundi?

 

[ShannonCT]

OK, I agree with you. In , Cats are not as powerful as they are in the other versions.

We just need to bring enough non-cats to kill all of the defenders in the first round of the fight. 6-8 axes/spears (total) feels like the right number.

It will be nice to get to Paper, and map trading, so we cna see where Wonders have been built and whether we need Astronomy, or not. Given our quick research to Civil Service and the relatively inexpensive Paper, we should consider this after we secure Ulundi?

Yes, Paper will be a fairly high priority, being the prereq for Education. A few techs that probably need to come first are Aesthetics/Lit, Monotheism, Monarchy (unless we build Mids), and maybe Currency.

Map trading would certainly prove useful in forming our exit strategy, if we find AI that are willing map traders.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Really appreciate the input. Agree with most of it, but I'm not on board for all the workboats. Will do as team decides, of course, but here's my argument:

If we go with Construction, Sailing, Masonry (not necessarily in that order, and I'm interested in Iron Working as well, in part because I fear Shaka's getting it and in part because swordsmen would really facilitate conquest of Ulundi), then it will be a long time before we get to Alphabet, which (along with the GLTHS -- also many turns away) will be needed before knowledge of additional AI becomes critical. A galley with a scout aboard is a far better means of exploration, since it allows popping of huts and exploration of the interior lands, and we are going to need to build at least one soon anyway to setttle marble city. If we at least scratch the wkbt from PHcity, that will allow us to build another axe, which I'd really like to have. There are many possible contingencies that would make an additional unit critical and there is much unknown. Shaka, for instance, could (as MP has noted) have founded another city with a metal or horses to hook up, and he can turn out workers rapidly in abundance to hook up and chop units. An axe(s) instead of a workboat(s) would not increase our unit costs; indeed, it might allow a little remunerative pillaging and even a go at that hut with a warrior. I practiced with unit costs of two gold for long periods and was still able to get the Oracle in 70 turns. It's probably going to take 71 now, but that's doable with good micro-managing even with supply costs. Surely assuring Shaka stays strategic-resource-free and his forests unchopped is not something we want to put at unnecessary risk.

I'd like to be playing again in about 11 hours, so hope this discussion will continue during the interim.

 

[ShannonCT]

Really appreciate the input. Agree with most of it, but I'm not on board for all the workboats. Will do as team decides, of course, but here's my argument:

If we go with Construction, Sailing, Masonry (not necessarily in that order, and I'm interested in Iron Working as well, in part because I fear Shaka's getting it and in part because swordsmen would really facilitate conquest of Ulundi), then it will be a long time before we get to Alphabet, which (along with the GLTHS -- also many turns away) will be needed before knowledge of additional AI becomes critical.

The earlier benefit of knowing more AI is the more valuable trade routes from the GLH. Domestic trade routes are only worth 1 commerce, but foreign intercontinental trade routes start at 3 each. AI that we meet by turn 75 will have 3 cities presumably, so that's 6 more commerce per AI met to begin with. The first intercontinental AI we meet gives the most benefit, because those trade routes will go to the capital with the Bureaucracy bonus and library/academy. Not knowing any intercontinental AI by the time we build GLH costs us at least 15 beakers per turn. As we build and capture more cities, we want to continue finding more AI to open borders with. Two workboats gives us a better chance than one.

A galley with a scout aboard is a far better means of exploration, since it allows popping of huts and exploration of the interior lands, and we are going to need to build at least one soon anyway to setttle marble city.

Yes, a galley with a scout would be useful too. But we won't be able to do this until after we've built the GLH. Workboats now would give us ~25 turns of a head start.

If we at least scratch the wkbt from PHcity, that will allow us to build another axe, which I'd really like to have. There are many possible contingencies that would make an additional unit critical and there is much unknown. Shaka, for instance, could (as MP has noted) have founded another city with a metal or horses to hook up, and he can turn out workers rapidly in abundance to hook up and chop units. An axe(s) instead of a workboat(s) would not increase our unit costs; indeed, it might allow a little remunerative pillaging and even a go at that hut with a warrior.

With 2 warriors, an axe, and a spear in Zululand by turn 60, I'm feeling pretty confident in our ability to stop Shaka from hooking any metal or horse, without sending an additional axe. He can't have iron in Ulundi's fat cross. If he ends up with iron somewhere else in his borders, he's going to have a hard time hooking it with only archers to attack our sentries.

My vote is for two workboats.

 

[leif erikson]

I understand CP's argument and can see the merit in it. I am always a big advocate of recon. Perhaps there is another way to accomplish this?

The first intercontinental AI we meet gives the most benefit, because those trade routes will go to the capital with the Bureaucracy bonus and library/academy. Not knowing any intercontinental AI by the time we build GLH costs us at least 15 beakers per turn. As we build and capture more cities, we want to continue finding more AI to open borders with.

Given the importance of the first contact, perhaps we can send one Work Boat out scouting. The Axe we build can replace one of the Warriors in Shaka's territory, freeing up a Warrior to go west and pop the hut and perform recon mission. I know a Warrior is slower, but not as slow as waiting for a Galley to be built and the transport time to get them anywhere.

It is going to be very important for us to determine whether or not Astronomy will be needed, specially if we decide to play for the shorter game Fred talked about.

I think we can meet the requirement by going with an initial Work Boat and a Warrior and then we can decide if another Work Boat is needed, or even a Galley with a Scout. Given a Big and Small Map, until we know where Big is, not sure how much we get from a Scout. We may have Explorers and Caravels by that time..

 

[Cactus Pete]

The earlier benefit of knowing more AI is the more valuable trade routes from the GLH. Domestic trade routes are only worth 1 commerce, but foreign intercontinental trade routes start at 3 each. AI that we meet by turn 75 will have 3 cities presumably, so that's 6 more commerce per AI met to begin with. What turn do you estimate we get the GLHS, assuming we attack Shaka with cats and axes, as you've suggested? The first intercontinental AI we meet gives the most benefit, because those trade routes will go to the capital with the Bureaucracy bonus and library/academy. Not knowing any intercontinental AI by the time we build GLH costs us at least 15 beakers per turn. Good point that also makes the point that there is a law of diminishing returns to consider. As we build and capture more cities, we want to continue finding more AI to open borders with. Two workboats gives us a better chance than one. Yes, it's a trade off. I'd rather take a chance on finding an AI with one wkbt than with loosing the advantage against Shaka and being set back turns in obtaining Ulundi with all the forests intact.

Yes, a galley with a scout would be useful too. But we won't be able to do this until after we've built the GLH. Why not? I'm definitely missing something again. Workboats now would give us ~25 turns of a head start. You don't think we'll build a galley for 25 turns?

With 2 warriors, an axe, and a spear in Zululand by turn 60, I'm feeling pretty confident in our ability to stop Shaka from hooking any metal or horse, without sending an additional axe. He can't have iron in Ulundi's fat cross. If he ends up with iron somewhere else in his borders, he's going to have a hard time hooking it with only archers to attack our sentries. Understand that iron doesn't appear in forests, but perhaps within another city to the west. We don't have enough sentries to monitor that too or perhaps even to safely learn of its existence quickly.

My vote is for two workboats.

You've convinced me of the wisdom in one (I'd go with in the capital), especially appreciate now the advantage of meeting an off-continent AI. Still argue for another axe in PHcity. Among other things it may allow us to send a warrior west (as leif suggests) to scout that area and hopefully pop the hut. Knowledge of our own continent and AI's there is important as well.

 

[leif erikson]

Why not? I'm definitely missing something again. You don't think we'll build a galley for 25 turns?

There is no way we will build a Galley in the next 25 turns. We are at turn number 50 now.

To get the CS sling, we're looking at Oracle around turn 70 to 71. There is no time to research Sailing during that time. Once the CS sling is completed, we need a turn to revolt to Slavery and Bureaucracy. Then we research Sailing and our first build, with a chop, must be Lighthouse. Following Lighthouse, we immediately need to build The Great Lighthouse, or we shall miss it. I think our target for GLHouse is around turn 78 or 9? That is beyond 25 turns already.

 

[Mad Professor]

There is no way we will build a Galley in the next 25 turns. We are at turn number 50 now.

To get the CS sling, we're looking at Oracle around turn 70 to 71. There is no time to research Sailing during that time. Once the CS sling is completed, we need a turn to revolt to Slavery and Bureaucracy. Then we research Sailing and our first build, with a chop, must be Lighthouse. Following Lighthouse, we immediately need to build The Great Lighthouse, or we shall miss it. I think our target for GLHouse is around turn 78 or 9? That is beyond 25 turns already.

I certainly wouldn't vote for slowing up the oracle (particularly) and the GLH to build a galley first. If there's a way of doing it without slowing the wonders, great, but I think that getting the wonders is going to be the more important priority. Particularly the CS slingshot with oracle. That's worth big bikkies to us.

 

[ShannonCT]

What turn do you estimate we get the GLHS, assuming we attack Shaka with cats and axes, as you've suggested?

If we do Sailing-Masonry after CS-Slingshot, GLH should come 7 turns after CS - that's revolt on turn T, Sailing finished on T+4, whip lighthouse without penalty on T+5, and chop GLH on T+6.

Good point that also makes the point that there is a law of diminishing returns to consider.

There's one time where the returns diminish, but after that, they're constant for a long time. After Currency, we get 4 trade routes per city. In my practice games, I had a hard time getting foreign trade routes for all my cities, due to knowing only 2-3 other AI. We're killing Shaka, so we're starting at 0 known foreign cities. By the time we have 6 cities, we want to know 24 foreign cities.

"Yes, a galley with a scout would be useful too. But we won't be able to do this until after we've built the GLH." Why not? I'm definitely missing something again. "Workboats now would give us ~25 turns of a head start." You don't think we'll build a galley for 25 turns?

Well, we wont be able to build a galley til we have Sailing, and that's about 25 turns away. And GLH takes priority over a galley, I assume.

Understand that iron doesn't appear in forests, but perhaps within another city to the west. We don't have enough sentries to monitor that too or perhaps even to safely learn of its existence quickly.

What if we use the spear to fortify next to the copper; the axe roams the forests south of Ulundi to stop workers from chopping or roading (and if he's built a city next to the horse, axe can still stop the horse hook-up); one warrior goes to pop the hut, if it's still there, and continues to explore that peninsula; the warrior that is currently guarding the copper explores the land west of Ulundi.

 

[Mad Professor]

I leave Australia tomorrow (a bit more than 24 hours from now). Internet access in western Kenya will be intermittent at first, but I'll still be avidly following the game and commenting where I can.

There's a plan to install satellite based internet access near where I'll be living but in Africa, "I'll believe it when I see it" is an appropriate attitude for such things. Such plans usually happen eventually, but very rarely on schedule Meanwhile I'll be driving a short distance to get at the internet. Hopefully still often enough

 

[leif erikson]

I leave Australia tomorrow (a bit more than 24 hours from now). Internet access in western Kenya will be intermittent at first, but I'll still be avidly following the game and commenting where I can.

There's a plan to install satellite based internet access near where I'll be living but in Africa, "I'll believe it when I see it" is an appropriate attitude for such things. Such plans usually happen eventually, but very rarely on schedule Meanwhile I'll be driving a short distance to get at the internet. Hopefully still often enough

Good Luck!

Hope you have a safe and enjoyable trip. We'll see you when you can get access.

 

[Cactus Pete]

If we do Sailing-Masonry after CS-Slingshot, GLH should come 7 turns after CS - that's revolt on turn T, Sailing finished on T+4, whip lighthouse without penalty on T+5, and chop GLH on T+6. Understood. Presume you are suggesting Construction be delayed for this.

There's one time where the returns diminish, but after that, they're constant for a long time. After Currency, we get 4 trade routes per city. In my practice games, I had a hard time getting foreign trade routes for all my cities, due to knowing only 2-3 other AI. We're killing Shaka, so we're starting at 0 known foreign cities. By the time we have 6 cities, we want to know 24 foreign cities. That's at least four additional civs within pre-Astronomy sailing limits. How likely is that? The point, I guess, is that we gain considerably for every one that we can find, and the sooner, the bigger the gain.

Well, we wont be able to build a galley til we have Sailing, and that's about 25 turns away. And GLH takes priority over a galley, I assume. GLH is in only one city, but the point is well taken: it will be awhile before we can build a galley. We could, however, build a second workboat immediately after a second axe is completed in PHcity, and I prefer that tactic.

What if we use the spear to fortify next to the copper; the axe roams the forests south of Ulundi to stop workers from chopping or roading (and if he's built a city next to the horse, axe can still stop the horse hook-up); one warrior goes to pop the hut, if it's still there, and continues to explore that peninsula; the warrior that is currently guarding the copper explores the land west of Ulundi.

That covers all the bases, but it leaves absolutely no margin for untoward events, such as the axe or spear being attacked by multiple archers or the warrior exploring west of Ulundi blundering into an archer and leaving that base uncovered long term.