SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[ShannonCT]

Ok. Plan so far:

I want to whip caravels in Stoneville and horseville before hitting enter and then switch civs to CS and Pacifism. Then have Stoneville work on the harbor instead of wealth.

I think the best use for Stoneville is to switch 2 citizens from coast to merchants. Growing Stoneville and working more coastal tiles isn't of much use. Every 1 population growth in Stoneville adds .62 maintenance per turn, so at 50% research, each pop growth nets only .38 gold and 1.25 beakers. Switching to merchants now helps us raise our tech rate.

Change Yasodharapara to work the furs for extra gold instead of the forest and change it's name to Furville.

Good idea. Furville will be a productive city with workshops later, so let's get the population growing with those sheep as well.

Leave the galley in our borders to be upgraded then send it back to explore SW passage - possibly detouring to drop off the scout in the purple or black border city that we can spy the edge of. (galleons have 4 movement points, so should be able to get there quicker even though it's sitting around)

Yes, we know exactly where Roman borders are, so head straight there and try to get open borders, maps, gold, techs, etc... Gift the Roman techs if he wont trade. If you can get his map, leave the scout on the galleon, and if not, drop off the scout to explore.

After angor wat, a scout to load on a the caravel from Horse city as it passes by Ulundi

Just to reiterate, Ulundi needs to maximixe scientists. It can stop building Wat, take it out of its queue, and let X-ville build it after Colossus. Ulundi can work on a harbor or a cat. It should hire 6 scientists and 1 engineer. If the GP about to be born in Ulundi is a GS, I guess it should settle in X-ville (payback time for a settled GS is ~45 turns). If it's a GA, GE, or GP, save it.

Next turn move the stack of units to barb city and start bombarding, but won't attack until the ballista and currently building HA can come for support.

Barb city has nothing to bombard. Hopefully 2 cats, 2 ballistas, 2 HAs, axe, and spear are enough to kill 3 archers.

Finish researching Astronomy then start nationalism....Where do we want Taj to be built?

Somewhere where we don't care about contaminating the GP pool. Furville would be fine. But there's no rush. The AI should be nowhere near Nationalism yet. So granary and courthouse first.

One thing to consider after nationalism: Economics and save the GM for either gold or a corporation. (I think corporations count in our wonder totals)

Economics requires Feudalism-Guilds-Banking. I think we should be able to trade for Feudalism and Guilds eventually, and maybe Banking. AI shouldn't be close to Education yet, so no rush for Econ.

Let the current wonders complete, then start building units and upgrade galleys so army is ready to go when we find the wonder cities. (this will slow down research though, so may need to wait, depending on what the group says)

Looks like we just need to upgrade a couple galleons now for exploration, one in the west and one in the east.

 

[ShannonCT]

Some city suggestions for rrau:

X-ville can finish Colossus, then build Wat, then build an observatory. X-ville won't benefit much from growing more population, so let Marbleville have the fish.

Marbleville can grow to Pop10 with the fish, and then hire 7 merchants. The extra gold from Marbleville alone gets us to 60% research.

Ivoryville can get a few more hammers. It should take Pigville's mine (Pigville can take a cottage from Ivoryville), work the workshops (which will give an extra hammer in CS), and work the plains cottage. That should help it pump out the ballistas faster.

Pigville could build a harbor after the cat.

Canalville can now use the mine it is sharing with Ulundi and finish the Parthenon in 10 turns. Specialists in Canalville should be merchants instead of scientists.

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Good discussion so far about the military actions. It seems we have some consensus that Ivoryville should build ballistas and Horseville should build maces. Some CR3 maces would be good for taking coastal cities later. It doesn't look like we'll need suicide cats to take on Portugal, as they still lack longbows. Joao has hooked iron, but I only saw a couple axes/swords during my turnset, no spears.

Joao should have a road built to Santorem. I saw a lot of worker activity there during my set. If we build a road to Santorem, we'll have good mobility into his territory. Galleons would be faster, but not so much to justify the expense right now. Our land route can include the razing of Santorem, the capture of Braga, and then the possible splitting of forces to capture Oporto and Coimbra.

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Another task that we need to start worrying about is the production of workshops. A couple workers can start prechopping forests around Furville, and a couple can get Jute up and running, but most should start building workshops around all of our cities except Marbleville, Stoneville, and Pigville. We can start with unimproved tiles, and then move on to prebuilding them on top of farms and cottages (to be finished later).

Building Hagia in X-ville would give our workers a useful productivity bonus. If we can trade for Theology, we should definitely do so.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think the best use for Stoneville is to switch 2 citizens from coast to merchants. Growing Stoneville and working more coastal tiles isn't of much use. Every 1 population growth in Stoneville adds .62 maintenance per turn, so at 50% research, each pop growth nets only .38 gold and 1.25 beakers. Switching to merchants now helps us raise our tech rate. Makes sense.

Good idea. Furville will be a productive city with workshops later, so let's get the population growing with those sheep as well. Yes, let's pasture the sheep and then quarry the marble.

Yes, we know exactly where Roman borders are, so head straight there and try to get open borders, maps, gold, techs, etc... Gift the Roman techs if he wont trade. Especially CoL. If you can get his map, leave the scout on the galleon, and if not, drop off the scout to explore. Concur.

Just to reiterate, Ulundi needs to maximixe scientists. It can stop building Wat, take it out of its queue, and let X-ville build it after Colossus. Ulundi can work on a harbor or a cat. Like cat then harbor -- getting culture down means fewer lost units. It should hire 6 scientists and 1 engineer. If the GP about to be born in Ulundi is a GS, I guess it should settle in X-ville (payback time for a settled GS is ~45 turns). If it's a GA, GE, or GP, save it. Wish I had a better idea for a GS, but I don't.

Barb city has nothing to bombard. Hopefully 2 cats, 2 ballistas, 2 HAs, axe, and spear are enough to kill 3 archers. Suggest attacking with one cat and holding the other back unless the first survives. Might want to explore a bit with one of the HA -- could be a barb city to raze.

Somewhere where we don't care about contaminating the GP pool. Furville would be fine. But there's no rush. The AI should be nowhere near Nationalism yet. So granary and courthouse first. Concur.

Economics requires Feudalism-Guilds-Banking. I think we should be able to trade for Feudalism and Guilds eventually, and maybe Banking. AI shouldn't be close to Education yet, so no rush for Econ. Gunpowder after Astro and Nationalism?

Looks like we just need to upgrade a couple galleons now for exploration, one in the west and one in the east.

Do we need a galleon to explore east, given the caravel and scout available? If the caravel does not contact an AI quickly, we should consider sailing those eastern galleys west.

Guess we wait on upgrading galley(s) hoping for contact and gold from a trade.

 

[ShannonCT]

Do we need a galleon to explore east, given the caravel and scout available? If the caravel does not contact an AI quickly, we should consider sailing those eastern galleys west.

Guess we wait on upgrading galley(s) hoping for contact and gold from a trade.

We don't need a galleon exploring east, although it would be nice if we had the money. I guess it depends on how readily we can get maps from the AI we meet. Some AI will trade them freely and others require Pleased or Friendly relations. (Of the Romans, Augustus will trade maps at Cautious and Julius at Friendly.) If our caravel is making slow progress, maybe consider upgrading a galleon and sending it NE.

I can't imagine that we wouldn't find an AI within a reasonable to the east. With our best unit producer closer to the east coast, it should be easier to launch invasions from that side. If we have many units left over in the west after finishing with Joao, we could always chop some galleons in a captured coastal city.

 

[leif erikson]

We don't need a galleon exploring east, although it would be nice if we had the money. I guess it depends on how readily we can get maps from the AI we meet. Some AI will trade them freely and others require Pleased or Friendly relations. (Of the Romans, Augustus will trade maps at Cautious and Julius at Friendly.) If our caravel is making slow progress, maybe consider upgrading a galleon and sending it NE.

Let's start with the Caravel, hoping to meet someone soon. A trade or two later, perhaps we will have the gold for upgrading our Galleys to Galleons. I think they are 90 gold each?

I can't imagine that we wouldn't find an AI within a reasonable to the east. With our best unit producer closer to the east coast, it should be easier to launch invasions from that side. If we have many units left over in the west after finishing with Joao, we could always chop some galleons in a captured coastal city.

Agreed. Let's just hope it is our cultured friend with several religious shrines...

 

[Cactus Pete]

We don't need a galleon exploring east, although it would be nice if we had the money. I guess it depends on how readily we can get maps from the AI we meet. Some AI will trade them freely and others require Pleased or Friendly relations. (Of the Romans, Augustus will trade maps at Cautious and Julius at Friendly.) If our caravel is making slow progress, maybe consider upgrading a galleon and sending it NE. Not clear what you have in mind here. By the time 'slow progress' is evident, wouldn't caravel still be best way to proceed?
I can't imagine that we wouldn't find an AI (that we want/need to attack) within a reasonable to the east. With our best unit producer closer to the east coast, it should be easier to launch invasions from that side. I can imagine it, but if not, certainly agree that it's more efficient to attack east.If we have many units left over in the west after finishing with Joao, we could always chop some galleons in a captured coastal city.

Not a great many chops available in coastal cities, so perhaps we should keep option of moving galleys open.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Some city suggestions for rrau:

X-ville can finish Colossus, then build Wat, then build an observatory. X-ville won't benefit much from growing more population, so let Marbleville have the fish. Marbleville can grow to Pop10 with the fish, and then hire 7 merchants. The extra gold from Marbleville alone gets us to 60% research. Okay, but do we then still move archer in Marbleville down to fog bust when scout boards caravel?

Ivoryville can get a few more hammers. It should take Pigville's mine (Pigville can take a cottage from Ivoryville), work the workshops (which will give an extra hammer in CS), and work the plains cottage. That should help it pump out the ballistas faster. Like that.

Pigville could build a harbor after the cat. Yes.

Canalville can now use the mine it is sharing with Ulundi and finish the Parthenon in 10 turns. Specialists in Canalville should be merchants instead of scientists. Concur.

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Good discussion so far about the military actions. It seems we have some consensus that Ivoryville should build ballistas and Horseville should build maces. Some CR3 maces would be good for taking coastal cities later. It doesn't look like we'll need suicide cats to take on Portugal, as they still lack longbows. Joao has hooked iron, but I only saw a couple axes/swords during my turnset, no spears. He will build spears. Perhaps we can unhook the iron.

Joao should have a road built to Santorem. I saw a lot of worker activity there during my set. If we build a road to Santorem, we'll have good mobility into his territory. Galleons would be faster, but not so much to justify the expense right now. Our land route can include the razing of Santorem, the capture of Braga, and then the possible splitting of forces to capture Oporto and Coimbra. Is good plan (which, as the generals are fond of saying sagely, will probably need to be adjusted as soon as we commence battle).
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Another task that we need to start worrying about is the production of workshops. A couple workers can start prechopping forests around Furville (would like to see several tiles there improved before chopping) , and a couple can get Jute up and running (same here), but most should start building workshops around all of our cities except Marbleville, Stoneville, and Pigville. We can start with unimproved tiles, and then move on to prebuilding them on top of farms and cottages (to be finished later).

Building Hagia in X-ville would give our workers a useful productivity bonus. If we can trade for Theology, we should definitely do so. Sure.

Might be helpful if rrau listed cities and plans for each.

 

[killercane]

Just to reiterate, Ulundi needs to maximixe scientists. It can stop building Wat, take it out of its queue, and let X-ville build it after Colossus. Ulundi can work on a harbor or a cat. It should hire 6 scientists and 1 engineer. If the GP about to be born in Ulundi is a GS, I guess it should settle in X-ville (payback time for a settled GS is ~45 turns). If it's a GA, GE, or GP, save it.

Xville needs to build units after Colossus.

That makes no sense to me -- rather build cheap chariots as MPs (though I doubt MPs will be needed for a while) and utilize the promoted maces, especially for coastal cities if you're worried about their movement limitation.

That is not what I am saying. Maces=slow; curassiers=fast. Elephant at 50% health upgraded= strength 9ish, enough to take a archer defended city. Maces will be getting to the front when we are already moving on. They can take city 1 or 2, but are not any help past turn 170 or so once we have made an initial attack. All they are good for then is a 70 hammer MP.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"That is not what I am saying. Maces=slow; curassiers=fast. Elephant at 50% health upgraded= strength 9ish, enough to take a archer defended city But they will often be badly wounded afterwards, and their next promotion is not assured.. Maces will be getting to the front when we are already moving on. They can take city 1 or 2, but are not any help past turn 170 or so once we have made an initial attack. All they are good for then is a 70 hammer MP." Aside from dismissing the important fact that we will not have to upgrade maces, you're assuming no spears in high culture cities, plus a wide continent to conquer. We may be able to do much of the conquering by moving maces by galleon. Flexibility in our present state of ignorance would seem appropriate.

 

[rrau]

plan version 3

Switch to CS and Pacifism

Ulundi: stop wat. build cat then harbor then hire 6 sci and 1 eng. Since won't be working wonders there will pull the worker NW down to road to Santarem (joao)

X ville: Finish colossus then Wat then obsevatory. Donate fish to marbleville

Ivoryville: finish HA then ballistas. Take mine from pigville. Work workshops
and plains cottage

Pigville: Cat then harbor.

Canalville. Take mine from Ulundi. Finish Parthenon. Change specialist type to merchant

Furville: Work furs, pasture sheep then quarry marble. Finish granary then start courthouse

horseville: Finish rax then maces.

Stoneville: hire merchants. Build scout to fog bust since the one there will be shipping out.

Marbleville. Take fish from Xville and hire merchants

War prep: Take Jute (keep). Gather forces in West.

Explore: load scout onto caravel and go east. Upgrade galley in 5 turns (4 plus 1 anarchy) if we have gold. May need to turn off research for a turn and get it in 6 turns. Then send galleon and scout to meet Romans. Try to get maps in trade.

Um.....We have 7 workers and 9 cities (soon to be 10)....maybe we need at least 2 if not 3 more?

 

[killercane]

"That is not what I am saying. Maces=slow; curassiers=fast. Elephant at 50% health upgraded= strength 9ish, enough to take a archer defended city But they will often be badly wounded afterwards, and their next promotion is not assured.. Maces will be getting to the front when we are already moving on. They can take city 1 or 2, but are not any help past turn 170 or so once we have made an initial attack. All they are good for then is a 70 hammer MP." Aside from dismissing the important fact that we will not have to upgrade maces, you're assuming no spears in high culture cities, plus a wide continent to conquer. We may be able to do much of the conquering by moving maces by galleon. Flexibility in our present state of ignorance would seem appropriate.

I am not going to argue any further. A strength 12 unit crushes spears, heals more quickly in comparison (50% faster), and will win the contest for us. Upgrading a unit is not a have to, it is an extra strength of the particular unit.

I am still angry at myself for forgetting to go into anarchy. It really takes the fun out of the game knowing that it adds a turn on to our end date. But if we are going to build wonders in the capital when we need units, build slow units, scouts, caravels, and such things then I will just retire from the game.

 

[ShannonCT]

I am not going to argue any further. A strength 12 unit crushes spears, heals more quickly in comparison (50% faster), and will win the contest for us. Upgrading a unit is not a have to, it is an extra strength of the particular unit.

Yes, we want a lot of Cuirassier at the end. Macemen are better than ballistas because of their bonuses against melee and because Joao wont be able to counter them with X-bows. So a few macemen now makes sense from the standpoint of conquering Joao sooner. But after those few macemen, unit-building cities should build a stables if they dont have one already, and then build ballistas/cuirassiers.

The leftover macemen and cats will be good for establishing a bridgehead on another continent. Speed doesn't help for a bridgehead. Then cuirassier can strike other cities from the bridgehead with support from airships.

I am still angry at myself for forgetting to go into anarchy. It really takes the fun out of the game knowing that it adds a turn on to our end date. But if we are going to build wonders in the capital when we need units, build slow units, scouts, caravels, and such things then I will just retire from the game.

Don't do that. You are right to set us back on track in X-ville. We need units more than shiny wonders that only give us a couple GPPs. Wat is not needed in X-ville right now. We only need 2 more Prophets max and we have the Blessed Seas quest to fall back on at the end. After Colossus, maybe a cat or two and then a stables?

I notice our score graph is 8-10 turns ahead of the nearest competitors (OSS and CRC) and Murky's score is also falling behind. We are in good position to take the gold this time. We need to be coming up with competing ideas and arguing about them to figure out the best way forward.

 

[leif erikson]

I am still angry at myself for forgetting to go into anarchy. It really takes the fun out of the game knowing that it adds a turn on to our end date. But if we are going to build wonders in the capital when we need units, build slow units, scouts, caravels, and such things then I will just retire from the game.

Playing as a team can be difficult at times for any of us. We will never always agree with each other 100%. I think it is inappropriate to threaten to leave if things are not done your way. We are fortunate to have many talented players on this team, each of whom bring their own style and habits. The game is a process of working together, to work through problems that come up and to try to convince each other of the merits of the course we would choose. The mouse holder has the final say but should certainly listen to what others are saying.

In the final analysis, you may be right and we may be wrong. But we can't know that until the game ends and the scores are tallied. It was your choice to join and it is yours to decide whether you remain or leave. While you are here, we must respect each other enough to roll with the decisions of the group and live or die by them.

It does no good to beat ourselves up. Please try to make the best of the situation as we move forward.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Yes, we want a lot of Cuirassier at the end. Macemen are better than ballistas because of their bonuses against melee and because Joao wont be able to counter them with X-bows. So a few macemen now makes sense from the standpoint of conquering Joao sooner. But after those few macemen, unit-building cities should build a stables if they dont have one already, and then build ballistas/cuirassiers." Let's take a look at the map and see what we're confronted with before deciding how many additional stables we want. Often speed does kill, and we should win a majority of battles and gain promotions.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Version 3 of the plan looks real good, rrau. Hate to stop growth and defer needed builds to add worker(s) right now. We should be getting a few from Joao. Have you noted SCT's comments regarding getting started on workshops?

 

[killercane]

Playing as a team can be difficult at times for any of us. We will never always agree with each other 100%. I think it is inappropriate to threaten to leave if things are not done your way. We are fortunate to have many talented players on this team, each of whom bring their own style and habits. The game is a process of working together, to work through problems that come up and to try to convince each other of the merits of the course we would choose. The mouse holder has the final say but should certainly listen to what others are saying.

In the final analysis, you may be right and we may be wrong. But we can't know that until the game ends and the scores are tallied. It was your choice to join and it is yours to decide whether you remain or leave. While you are here, we must respect each other enough to roll with the decisions of the group and live or die by them.

It does no good to beat ourselves up. Please try to make the best of the situation as we move forward.

I realize all of your points. I have limited time at the moment, so yeah Im retiring for a number of factors. I hope you guys pull in the gold.

 

[leif erikson]

I realize all of your points. I have limited time at the moment, so yeah Im retiring for a number of factors. I hope you guys pull in the gold.

I am sorry to hear of your decision. You have been a valuable member of the team and I hope you will continue to contribute. Should you reconsider, you are always welcome here.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Are we allowed to have less than five players?

 

[leif erikson]

Are we allowed to have less than five players?

Some teams in the past have finished with 2 or 3.

I think it is up to us? As long as we are willing to charge ahead, let's do so.

 

[ShannonCT]

Smurkz only had 3 active players at the end of SGOTM07, and they did alright.

Let's just remember Leif's sig: "no one is thinking if everyone is thinking alike."

I'd like to focus the discussion on KC's point about X-Ville. Is it better to build Wat and observatory there or units? Wat doesn't do much good if X-ville doesn't have the surplus food to hire preists (and it wont if Marbleville is using the fish). The observatory would bring in about 20 beakers per turn after it's built and maybe an average of 25 over the rest of the game. On the other hand, building units in X-ville soon will help us take Joao's cities faster.