SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[ShannonCT]

Been reading a bit and found a couple of things. First, and most important, every civ must have representation, by having the Apostolic Palace religion in at least one of their cities, before a Diplo Victory vote can happen. As Augustus' religion is Hinduism, I am assuming that Hinduism is the religion of the AP. Joao does not have a Hindu city that we know of and we would have to acquire one to be included in the vote. This is another good reason to leave Joao alive and with a few cities. I am unsure how Vassalization affects this formula.

Good catch Leif. If Joao has no Hindu city, Rome can't get a victory vote. I don't think it should matter whether Joao is our vassal or not.

Been reading up on this as well. Please see this strategy article on Vassals. It is written for Warlords but later does talk some about What it does not do is explain the conditions under which a civ will voluntarily become another civs vassal seeking protection from being destroyed by a more powerful civ, like us. It does explain, later in the thread, that the cities that the vassal has are counted as our cites to calculate number of cities maintenance costs. It seems that is the increased cost of maintenance, another reason to consider signing cease fire and not taking on a vassal.

The empire size maintenance increase from 2-3 vassalized cities shouldn't be much to deter us, but signing ceasefire with Joao and finishing him later when we need to pop and land for domination sounds like a good idea as well.

I see in the XML that Joao needs to be Pleased or higher to peacefully vassalize itself to another civ. I assume that includes the situation where Joao is at war with us. Joao is -2 and Cautious with Augustus right now, so maybe we're safe.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks for the AP vote analysis, SCT.

"I don't think it's worth continuing the war against Joao to get his last few junk cities when we can vassalize him and get half of that population and land without all of the maintenance. So all of the Portugese cities that are visible now (Implying that you do not view any of these as junk cities?) , we can keep. If there is a point where we need a couple turns for units to heal and dont have any healthy units to march toward Evora and Guimares, we could consider a ceasefire for a couple turns. If we have healthy units to escort cats to bombard those cities right away, then by all means press the attack." Sounds good to me.

With the concern that Joao will become Caesar's vassal, wouldn't it make sense to capture Joao's last two non-junk, or even three, cities on the same turn, then sue for cease fire or peace/capitulation?

 

[leif erikson]

EDIT - Almost missed it - 5,000th Post.

And time to put on Mistfit's creation - My Christmas Avatar

With the concern that Joao will become Caesar's vassal, wouldn't it make sense to capture Joao's last two non-junk, or even three, cities on the same turn, then sue for cease fire or peace/capitulation?

During the next ten turns, I think Coimbra, Lisbon and Lagos are doable. I'm not sure we have sufficient forces to take Lagos, Evora and Guimaraes in the same turn? I am not sure what units will be in his cities. I expect to find at least two Longbows and a Spear. You mentioned seeing a some Horse Archers appearing from time to time.

If I can get the three mentioned, including his capital (Lisbon), then we should be able to take the last two on the same turn. Perhaps after a short cease fire?

If SCT is correct and Joao will not accept becoming a vassal to Augustus unless he is Pleased or higher, the faster we can take his remaining good cities, the less time Joao has to get to Pleased? Actually, as Joao's worst enemy, a resource trade will drive them farther apart, wouldn't it. And we have decided to trade Sheep to Augustus and Wheat to Gandhi. That may add a -1 to Joao's relationship with Augustus...

 

[Cactus Pete]

EDIT - Almost missed it - 5,000th Post. Congratulations on time so well spent.

And time to put on Misfit's creation - My Christmas Avatar Well, at least you waited until after Thanksgiving.

During the next ten turns, I think Coimbra, Lisbon and Lagos are doable. I'm not sure we have sufficient forces to take Lagos, Evora and Guimaraes in the same turn? Perhaps not. We will sufffer some losses. I am not sure what units will be in his cities. I expect to find at least two Longbows and a Spear. You mentioned seeing a some Horse Archers appearing from time to time. Yes, he's been sending out cats and HAs with regularity (which is certainly better than stacking longbows).

If I can get the three mentioned, including his capital (Lisbon), then we should be able to take the last two on the same turn. Perhaps after a short cease fire? Makes sense.

If SCT is correct and Joao will not accept becoming a vassal to Augustus unless he is Pleased or higher, the faster we can take his remaining good cities, the less time Joao has to get to Pleased? Actually, as Joao's worst enemy, a resource trade will drive them farther apart, wouldn't it. And we have decided to trade Sheep to Augustus and Wheat to Gandhi. That may add a -1 to Joao's relationship with Augustus...

Your idea of ordering the axe on board the galleon with the cat and WE sounds good.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Had a look at the save!!

Tech speed is indeed impressive and faster than I assumed in my earlier simulations. Primarily thanks to the merchant growing strategy that should allow a tech rate around 80%-90% . If we can get Radio with Liberalism this suggests that We can get MM in 30 turns and Corporation in 15 i.e. we would have E(t)=5*47 at T210 rather than T228 as in my simulation. E(t)/t would be 45/195=1.15 for a direct beeline to MM and 47/210=1.12 after Corporation. I'm afraid this also suggests that the bottleneck is not beakers but hammers since it seems very difficult to win the game within 45 (not to mention 30) turns knowing that in the last 30 turns we need to produce around 10000 hammers for Wonders alone. Note, that a Wonder like Wall Street has an effective hammer cost of 6*200+600=1800 hammers because 6 banks (and maybe even a few markets) need to be constructed also. If Corporation is researched last we need to be able to build WS very fast - perhaps by whipping banks in 6 large cities and then chopping/Cash rushing WS. But is it at all feasible to end the game in 45 turns? I think this is an important issue to clarify - maybe by making some estimates of hammers per turn compared to expected build gap.

If hammers are indeed the bottleneck this calls for saving hammers when possible and increasing the hammer production. Thus it seems reasonable to build only units, Wonders and buildings required to build Wonders in this last phase of the game. I would cancel the Harbor build. Another possibility is to build a few workers in hammer poor cities in order to speed up building workshops. Researching Guilds and Chemistry also deserves consideration when we have many workshops built.

Miscellaneous thoughts:

Not sure about researching Engineering. We are basically giving away 1500 beakers by not waiting 10-20 turns and trading for it. Postponing the time when ToA and GLib go obsolete by 2-3 turns is worth only a couple of hundred beakers. The fact that hammers are most likely the bottleneck doesn't mean that beakers are not important. The more beakers we can produce the less E(t)/t will go down after we reach MM. Best argument for sacrificing some beakers would be if we gain some hammers in return and I don't see how Engineering helps here. Will Trebs be a big bonus in the warfare or are they simply obsolete after we get Airships in not so many turns?

I'm slightly confused about the AP discussion . Jute is Hindu and so is probably the unknown Portuguese city. Both Joao and we are listed as voting members of the AP! So I guess Augustus could propose a diplomatic victory if he wants. Or are there additional rules I don't know of? What are the risks involved with the AP? We could eliminate it by researching MM and then capturing Rome thus making it obsolete.

Since we would want to end the game by researching a tech that enables a Wonder and then build that wonder immediately (e.g. Wall Street) I would suggest that we preserve a substantial number of forests in at least one city. Could be Fur City, I suppose the Taj can be built in time elsewhere?

I'm still very busy with work and other stuff, but it looks better in the new year. Anyway I will check in every now and then and see how you are doing in this game .

 

[ShannonCT]

During the next ten turns, I think Coimbra, Lisbon and Lagos are doable. I'm not sure we have sufficient forces to take Lagos, Evora and Guimaraes in the same turn? I am not sure what units will be in his cities. I expect to find at least two Longbows and a Spear. You mentioned seeing a some Horse Archers appearing from time to time.

If I can get the three mentioned, including his capital (Lisbon), then we should be able to take the last two on the same turn. Perhaps after a short cease fire?

It will depend on the conditions on the ground, but I wouldn't discount the possibility of capturing 5 Portugese cities in the next 10 turns. We have several Cuirassiers on the way to the area and we can upgrade several Ballistas/HAs in a few turns as well. For cities like Lagos, Evora, and Guimaraes, we should be looking to drop off cats and a defender (mace or Cuir) by galleon next to these cities and soften them for our Cuirassiers to rush in by land or sea. Don't hesitate to send unescorted Cuirassiers through Portugal. Promoted to Combat2 (better than Shock), they will be heavy favorites against attackers. They will also be heavy favorites against defenders in bombarded cities, so I hope we can preserve enough cats in the first couple battles to bombard other cities quickly. No need, for instance, to suicide a cat against Lisbon when we will have several Cuirassier ready to attack soon.

 

[ShannonCT]

Had a look at the save!!

Tech speed is indeed impressive and faster than I assumed in my earlier simulations. Primarily thanks to the merchant growing strategy that should allow a tech rate around 80%-90% . If we can get Radio with Liberalism this suggests that We can get MM in 30 turns and Corporation in 15 i.e. we would have E(t)=5*47 at T210 rather than T228 as in my simulation. E(t)/t would be 45/195=1.15 for a direct beeline to MM and 47/210=1.12 after Corporation. I'm afraid this also suggests that the bottleneck is not beakers but hammers since it seems very difficult to win the game within 45 (not to mention 30) turns knowing that in the last 30 turns we need to produce around 10000 hammers for Wonders alone. Note, that a Wonder like Wall Street has an effective hammer cost of 6*200+600=1800 hammers because 6 banks (and maybe even a few markets) need to be constructed also. If Corporation is researched last we need to be able to build WS very fast - perhaps by whipping banks in 6 large cities and then chopping/Cash rushing WS. But is it at all feasible to end the game in 45 turns? I think this is an important issue to clarify - maybe by making some estimates of hammers per turn compared to expected build gap.

We certainly wouldn't want to research Corp last because of this exact reason. Rather, we want to research something like Refrigeration last, because the wonder can be built immediately with a Great Person. The best order looks like beeline to MM, then Communism, then Bio, then Corporation, then Refrig. Slight deviations may be called for, like if we are in danger of losing the free Merchant from Econ, or if we want to complete Chem after we've partially bulbed it with the free GS from Physics. Since we need hammers more than we need beakers, Guilds, Chem, and Communism will all be priorities.

Not sure about researching Engineering. We are basically giving away 1500 beakers by not waiting 10-20 turns and trading for it. Postponing the time when ToA and GLib go obsolete by 2-3 turns is worth only a couple of hundred beakers. The fact that hammers are most likely the bottleneck doesn't mean that beakers are not important. The more beakers we can produce the less E(t)/t will go down after we reach MM. Best argument for sacrificing some beakers would be if we gain some hammers in return and I don't see how Engineering helps here. Will Trebs be a big bonus in the warfare or are they simply obsolete after we get Airships in not so many turns?

Engineering gives us a significant advantage in war. Extra movement gets units to the front faster, even for the war with Portugal. Trebs bombard faster than cats. Trebs and Airships serve different purposes. Airships can't bombard, only attack units and take 20% of their HPs. Since many of the remaining cities we want to take are coastal, trebs have significant value.

I'm slightly confused about the AP discussion . Jute is Hindu and so is probably the unknown Portuguese city. Both Joao and we are listed as voting members of the AP! So I guess Augustus could propose a diplomatic victory if he wants. Or are there additional rules I don't know of? What are the risks involved with the AP? We could eliminate it by researching MM and then capturing Rome thus making it obsolete.

You might be right about Joao having a Hindu city. I guess we can find out when we get peace/capitulation with Joao and get his map.

It doesn't really change my previous analysis: Gandhi will vote for himself until we knock him out of second place. If we knock him out of second place in one large blow, giving ourselves 25%+ of Hindu population, Rome can't win a religious victory. I don't think we need to plan for an attack on Rome right now.

Since we would want to end the game by researching a tech that enables a Wonder and then build that wonder immediately (e.g. Wall Street) I would suggest that we preserve a substantial number of forests in at least one city. Could be Fur City, I suppose the Taj can be built in time elsewhere?

We can save some forests in Fur city because there's no rush with Taj. Partially chopping a wonder and cash rushing or whipping the rest of it is a possibility.

 

[leif erikson]

It will depend on the conditions on the ground, but I wouldn't discount the possibility of capturing 5 Portugese cities in the next 10 turns. We have several Cuirassiers on the way to the area and we can upgrade several Ballistas/HAs in a few turns as well. For cities like Lagos, Evora, and Guimaraes, we should be looking to drop off cats and a defender (mace or Cuir) by galleon next to these cities and soften them for our Cuirassiers to rush in by land or sea. Don't hesitate to send unescorted Cuirassiers through Portugal. Promoted to Combat2 (better than Shock), they will be heavy favorites against attackers. They will also be heavy favorites against defenders in bombarded cities, so I hope we can preserve enough cats in the first couple battles to bombard other cities quickly. No need, for instance, to suicide a cat against Lisbon when we will have several Cuirassier ready to attack soon.

I like your ideas of using Cats to reduce Culture and Cuirassier to attack the defenders. You do know that Horse Archers will not upgrade to Cuirassier until we get Guilds? The Ballista's will upgrade.

I agree that there is value in Engineering. Another argument for it is that without Engineering, there will be no bulb of Chemistry. And with Chemistry, we can also build Frigates to assist in bombarding culture in coastal cities.

EDIT - btw, Airships have a range of 8 tiles so it looks like we'll need to get established on the other continent to use them effectively. The only city on our content in range of another city will be Lagos. From it, Airships can reach Arpinum, but that is all. We'll need Trebs to safely get ashore on the other continent...

Just checked the Victory Conditions screen and I do not see Joao listed as a voting member? So I do not think he has Hinduism in any city yet. He has only known Augustus for a short time and has no trade routes and does not have Open Borders. As long as this remains true, there can be no Religious Leader victory vote.

 

[leif erikson]

We can save some forests in Fur city because there's no rush with Taj. Partially chopping a wonder and cash rushing or whipping the rest of it is a possibility.

Shall we leave the forests in Furville then?

 

[ShannonCT]

I like your ideas of using Cats to reduce Culture and Cuirassier to attack the defenders. You do know that Horse Archers will not upgrade to Cuirassier until we get Guilds? The Ballista's will upgrade.

I don't think this is true. Knights upgrade to Cuirassier, so HAs can skip right over the knight upgrade and go directly to Cuirassiers.

Shall we leave the forests in Furville then?

I'd say chopping 4 forests seems about right. That would give us Taj in ~20 turns. A 12 turn golden age from Taj + another from 2 GPs gives us a golden age from turn 185 to 209. That seems like exactly the time where we want a long golden age for building the big wonders quickly.

Jute – complete Harbor and then Barracks and then Stable.

Agree with Fred that we can nix the harbor here. Jute will need an MP very soon, so maybe a longbow and then barracks and stables?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Great to have Fred's continuing contribution, but I, too, disagree with him on the value of Engineering. The harbor, on the other hand, can be aborted.

Concur with SCT's GA projections.

You look good to go from my perspective, leif.

 

[leif erikson]

I don't think this is true. Knights upgrade to Cuirassier, so HAs can skip right over the knight upgrade and go directly to Cuirassiers.

If you get a chance, please open the save and go to Oporto. In the city, which is connected to the trade network, is a Horse Archer with one movement point remaining. When I select that unit, there is no option to upgrade him. When I checked the Civlopedia, it says that Horse Archers upgrade to Knights and that Knights upgrade to Cuirassier. The game will not give the option to upgrade him however. The only thing I can figure out is that we must have Guilds in order to upgrade the Horse Archer. I didn't believe it either, but it will not allow us the option to upgrade...

EDIT - I just realized Horses are not connected. Perhaps that is why the upgrade is prevented.

I'd say chopping 4 forests seems about right. That would give us Taj in ~20 turns. A 12 turn golden age from Taj + another from 2 GPs gives us a golden age from turn 185 to 209. That seems like exactly the time where we want a long golden age for building the big wonders quickly.

There are 4 forests left in the fat cross. Can I take the two workers up to improve Jute? Should we use a couple of Farms to irrigate the Wheat and then build Work Shops on the other Plains tiles?

Agree with Fred that we can nix the harbor here. Jute will need an MP very soon, so maybe a longbow and then barracks and stables?

That sounds good to me.

Planning to begin playing in a hour or so. Will also be monitoring the thread.

 

[ShannonCT]

There are 4 forests left in the fat cross. Can I take the two workers up to improve Jute? Should we use a couple of Farms to irrigate the Wheat and then build Work Shops on the other Plains tiles?

I'd say yes, only 1 worker is needed to chop forests in Furville. Jute would be a good place for workshops. I don't think we need to spend time building 2 farms for 1 more food on the wheat. We have 3 flood plains in Jute that will give enough food to work a lot of workshops.

 

[leif erikson]

I'd say yes, only 1 worker is needed to chop forests in Furville. Jute would be a good place for workshops. I don't think we need to spend time building 2 farms for 1 more food on the wheat. We have 3 flood plains in Jute that will give enough food to work a lot of workshops.

CP was building a Work Shop on the third flood plain. I had planned to complete it. Or should we use it to provide more food to work more Work Shops?

 

[ShannonCT]

CP was building a Work Shop on the third flood plain. I had planned to complete it. Or should we use it to provide more food to work more Work Shops?

complete it

 

[leif erikson]

complete it

Starting now.

EDIT - @SCT - You were correct, Horse Archers upgrade to Cuirassier, once the Horses are hooked up...

 

[leif erikson]

Have played three turns. Joao is ready to capitulate and he has become Pleased with Augustus. My fear is that he will Capitulate to him on the turn change.

Horse Archers have been a pain...

I'll attached the save below.

The Log thus far:
Turn 165 – 1050 AD
Change build in X-ville to Ballista
Change build in Ivoryville to Cat.
Change build in Jute to Longbow.
Go to Espionage Screen and change the weight of Boudica to zero and both Augustus and Gandhi to 1.
Halt the two Workers chopping the Forest near Furville.
Near Braga, load the Great Prophet and the 4.4/8 Ballista and load them onto the Galleon. Move Galleon next to Coimbra.
Dial up Augustus and trade Sheep to him for 6 gpt.
Dial up Gandhi and trade him Wheat for 6 gpt.
Change research objective to Engineering and increase research to 60% to get Engineering in 2 turns.
Upgrade Galley to Galleon for a cost of 110 Gold, near Marbleville.
Here we go!

IBT
Horse Archer moves into Coimbra.
Our Spear is attacked near Furville and defeats the Barb Spear.
See a War Elephant in Roman territory.
There is an Apostolic Palace Election and Augustus wins with 320 votes out of 435.

Marbleville Theater => Wealth

Turn 166 – 1060 AD
Position Caravel and Galleon to transport Great Merchant due soon.
With Engineering due next turn, land Cuirassier from Galleon near Horseville.
Load Cat onto Galleon near Oporto
Battle of Coimbra.
Bombard with Accuracy Cat, defenses to 0%.
Promote Cat to CR2 and decide to unload Galleon and go back for another Ballista and the Axe.

Take a look into Lisbon and find:
Longbow with City Garrison 1
Horse Archer with CBT1 and Flanking1
Horse Archer with CBT1 and 2
Sword with CBT1
Axe with CBT1
Spear with CBT1
Cat with Barrage1

Change build in X-ville to Cat.

IBT
A Cat attacks our Maces and Cat stack outside of Lisbon and dies.
Another Horse Archer enters Coimbra
An Axe leaves Libon and heads for Oporto.
Charlemagne comes calling and wants us to declare on Boudica, I refuse.
We discover Engineering and continue with Scientific Method, increase research rate to 80%, due in two turns.
Ivoryville Cat => Treb.

Turn 167 – 1070 AD
Offload Cat and Cuirassier near Lisbon.
Cuirassier from Oporto attacks and kills the Axe.
Battle of Coimbra.
CR2 Cat attacks and withdraws from combat.
Unpromoted Cat attacks and dies.
CR2 Mace attacks at 95.3% and kills LB.
CR1 Mace attacks at 95.9% and kills a Horse Archer.
Accuracy Cat attacks at 89% and withdraws from a Horse Archer.
Unpromoted Cat attacks at 97.6% and withdraws from a Spear.
Wounded Ballista attacks at 93.4% and kills a LB.
Ballista attacks at 99.9% and kills a Spear.
Wounded Ballista attacks from Galleon at 99.9% and kills a Horse Archer, taking Coimbra and 114 Gold. Coimbra has a Courthouse but needs a Granary.
We lost one Cat.
Galleon sails in and drops off the Medic Axe and the Great Prophet.
The Great Prophet builds The Dai Miao.

We begin to bombard Lisbon.

Start Pasturing our Horse tile.

Braga expands culture and we reassign citizens
Joao is now Pleased with Augustus.

IBT
A Cat moves out of Lisbon towards Coimbra while a Chariot moves into Lisbon.
I saw some Workers last turn that we could have stolen, all three have disappeared.
Horseville Cat => Cuirassier
X-ville change build to Cuirassier.

Turn 168 – 1080 AD
Move all units near Coimbra into city to heal.
Upgrade a Horse Archer to Cuirassier for 170 gold in Oporto.
Upgrade a Ballista to Cuirassier for 140 gold in Coimbra.

Continue to bombard Lisbon.

Check on Joao and he is ready to Capitulate. Decide to stop, save and post for comments.

 

[ShannonCT]

The main objective of this Portugese campaign is to give ourselves enough cities to achieve our hammer goal. We haven't achieved that yet, so I don't see any good reason to stop the war. If Joao capitulates to Augustus and we have to declare on Augustus, it's not a big deal. He can't touch us until he gets Astro, and we can buy peace when we've finished with Joao. I say fight on!

And you don't need to wait for cats to heal to start bombing Lagos or Guimaraes.

 

[rrau]

I agree. Press onward. We need hammers.

 

[leif erikson]

The main objective of this Portugese campaign is to give ourselves enough cities to achieve our hammer goal. We haven't achieved that yet, so I don't see any good reason to stop the war. If Joao capitulates to Augustus and we have to declare on Augustus, it's not a big deal. He can't touch us until he gets Astro, and we can buy peace when we've finished with Joao. I say fight on!

I agree as well. Just wanted to check.

And you don't need to wait for cats to heal to start bombing Lagos or Guimaraes.

Yes, they will be loaded onto the Galleon and moved to Lagos next turn.

I've also set up a ship chain to move Cats and a few Trebs to Guimaraes to wear it down while we take Lisbon.