SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[ShannonCT]

Before we can plan this we need AlanH to confirm that wonders built in the IBT before the turn where victory is declared count. He never responded to that.

Actually, wonders completed in the IBT are counted in the turn log as being completed on the earlier turn. So if we whip a wonder on turn 213 (or have a wonder within 1 turn of completion on turn 213) and get victory on turn 214, that wonder will show up in the turn log as completing on turn 213.

Are there any reasons to doubt that we can get the Diplomatic victory? Is Augustus the only possible opponent? And are our vassals forced to vote for us?

Augustus will be our opponent as long as he has more population than any other AI. That seems highly likely right now. Vassals are forced to vote for us. I've tested this, and have read other threads saying as much. The one thing we have to pay attention to now is not having too much population ourselves. The victory vote option will not come up if we have enough votes to get victory win our votes alone. We'll be whipping hospitals in 2-3 turns and that will reduce our population. On turn 212, we need to make sure we have less than 60% of world population. We can reduce our population by liberating cities to our vassals.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Actually, wonders completed in the IBT are counted in the turn log as being completed on the earlier turn. So if we whip a wonder on turn 213 (or have a wonder within 1 turn of completion on turn 213) and get victory on turn 214, that wonder will show up in the turn log as completing on turn 213.

In that case it would indeed be strange not to count these wonders. Iterpreting the rules like this would also mean that the final wonder count can be found directly from the final save. Only thing AlanH would need to check is that no corporations or shrines have been built during the victory turn since this is obviously possible. I suppose that victory is also announced in the turn log so the simple rule could be that the turn log indicates the exact timing of victory in relation to build timing of Wonders. Should we propose to AlanH that he clarifies this?

Augustus will be our opponent as long as he has more population than any other AI. That seems highly likely right now. Vassals are forced to vote for us. I've tested this, and have read other threads saying as much. The one thing we have to pay attention to now is not having too much population ourselves. The victory vote option will not come up if we have enough votes to get victory win our votes alone. We'll be whipping hospitals in 2-3 turns and that will reduce our population. On turn 212, we need to make sure we have less than 60% of world population. We can reduce our population by liberating cities to our vassals.

Seems like this speaks against capturing any other cities than Rome, Cumae and Antium.

 

[leif erikson]

In that case it would indeed be strange not to count these wonders. Iterpreting the rules like this would also mean that the final wonder count can be found directly from the final save. Only thing AlanH would need to check is that no corporations or shrines have been built during the victory turn since this is obviously possible. I suppose that victory is also announced in the turn log so the simple rule could be that the turn log indicates the exact timing of victory in relation to build timing of Wonders. Should we propose to AlanH that he clarifies this?

I'm missing something in this issue? Is it that, with Diplo victory, the game declares victory for us before the builds are counted for the next turn? Or is it something else?

I thought his guidance to us was clear, the wonders are counted when victory is declared. If the game counts builds late in the IBT, then we need to allow for an extra turn to ensure builds count.

If the issue is something else, please help me to understand?

Seems like this speaks against capturing any other cities than Rome, Cumae and Antium.

Should we find The Great Wall in Cumae, is there even a need to take Antium?

And Fred, sorry I forgot the Settler in Coimbra. I thought that once we had Satricum, that was one less Settler that was needed. See what I get for thinking...

And thanks again for all the hard work on builds.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I'm missing something in this issue? Is it that, with Diplo victory, the game declares victory for us before the builds are counted for the next turn? Or is it something else?

I thought his guidance to us was clear, the wonders are counted when victory is declared. If the game counts builds late in the IBT, then we need to allow for an extra turn to ensure builds count.

If the issue is something else, please help me to understand?

The issue is that say we whip some Wonders in the turn before victory e.g T213. Then we press enter and Victory is announced. So what happened first: Finishing the Wonders or Victory? Since Wonder completion according to SCT is mentioned in the turn log as belonging to T213 I guess the issue is settled. There is no doubt that the Wonders will be counted in the final T214 save.

It would be nice to have this confirmed and also confirmation that building shrines or coporations in the victory turn (T214 in the example) is disallowed.

 

[leif erikson]

It would be nice to have this confirmed and also confirmation that building shrines or coporations in the victory turn (T214 in the example) is disallowed.

If AlanH hasn't commented by this evening, I'll send him a PM and ask.

It seems like a game mechanics issue. Is there any way to test this to see how the game behaves?

Got to go to a meeting. If this is unresolved, perhaps I can try to set up a test this evening to see when the game records different events. Might be fun as I have never built a Corporation before!

 

[ShannonCT]

Seems like this speaks against capturing any other cities than Rome, Cumae and Antium.

Yes, I dont think we need to capture any more cities. It looks like we'll have enough wealth to run 100% research for the rest of the game.

Should we find The Great Wall in Cumae, is there even a need to take Antium?

Antium has Ankor Wat.

The issue is that say we whip some Wonders in the turn before victory e.g T213. Then we press enter and Victory is announced. So what happened first: Finishing the Wonders or Victory?

Finishing the wonders happened first (on T213). Victory turn is counted as T214.

It would be nice to have this confirmed and also confirmation that building shrines or coporations in the victory turn (T214 in the example) is disallowed.

I think Alan already confirmed that we can't build a corp or shrine after Victory has been declared. The game calculates your score (including wonder score) before you have the chance to do anything on T214. The score gets recorded in your personal Hall of Fame. The game gives us the option to play one more turn. The game is over. We make the final save and submit it. Nothing we do on T214 or after counts toward our official score.

 

[ShannonCT]

A couple calculations I did today:

1. We can found our final 4 cities to complete Blessed Seas on turn 210 if we build a settler in Ivoryville. I will take Ivory's archer along for a ride in case there is a barb on an island. Guimaraes's settler will be accompanied by an axeman. We get our Prophet on T211 and chain him to Hun to build the shrine on T212.

2. I'd like to try to get all of our hospital finished on T209. Cash rushing a hospital with no hammers invested costs 600 gold. Whipping a hospital with no hammers invested in a city getting at least a 35% bonus costs 5 pop. I propose we whip hospitals in Vijay, Tolosa, Oporto, and Pigville, and chop one in Aachen. We can build one in X-ville in one turn by maximizing overflow from the settler and by converting the towns to workshops on T207 and T208. I've taken into account the loss of hammers from the end of the golden age and the switch out of CS for one turn.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Appreciate all the effort being expended to make everything coincide. Like our chances.

Is there any possible harm to our plans that could result from having to reject an AP resolution at this point?

SCT, you have no history of getting these things wrong; nevertheless, double checking your calculations (if you haven't already) would seem wise. If gold gets tight, you can pillage a bit.

 

[ShannonCT]

Is there any possible harm to our plans that could result from having to reject an AP resolution at this point?

If we defy a resolution (like to stop the war), our Hindu cities will get some unhappiness (+5 I believe). Bibracte is the only city that would be affected, because all other Hindu cities have at least 5 surplus happiness. And it would only effect our beaker rate there, not any key builds. Jute is the only Hindu city building a wonder, and it has plenty of leaway in finishing Versailles and National Park (it can whip National Park after building it for only 1 turn).

SCT, you have no history of getting these things wrong; nevertheless, double checking your calculations (if you haven't already) would seem wise. If gold gets tight, you can pillage a bit.

Don't worry. I don't trust my own calculations either, at least when it comes to calculating how whipping works. So I've been testing everything in WB. X-ville can easily build RC enough to whip it on T213. Wall Street in Horseville is a much trickier endeavor, but I think I've found a way to get it done. Finish UN this turn. Build the bank to within 1 hammer of completion next turn. Then maximize hammer overflow going into T209 when Corp is completed and use the overflow in WS. Including hammers lost after the GA is done and hammers lost for being out of CS for 1 turn, I calculate we can get 332 hammers into WS by T213. And I've tested that this is enough to whip the rest for 8 pop. Someone can double check this.

And yes, we can use pillaging and razing cities to raise cash if we need it.

 

[ShannonCT]

Ran some tests on when various wonders can be whipped:

National Park can be whipped in Jute after 58 hammers are invested.
Wall Street can be whipped in Horseville after 315 hammers are invested.
Hollywood can be whipped in Ulundi after 735 hammers are invested.
Red Cross can be whipped in X-ville after 240 hammers are invested.
Broadway can be whipped in Lisbon after 683 hammers are invested.

With these numbers, we can calculate how much we can afford to turn hammers into beakers and still be able to whip all of these wonders on T213. A city like Ulundi can afford to build beakers for 2-3 turns and whip its wonder. Everything hinges on getting Medicine on T208 and Corp on T209.

 

[Frederiksberg]

1. We can found our final 4 cities to complete Blessed Seas on turn 210 if we build a settler in Ivoryville. I will take Ivory's archer along for a ride in case there is a barb on an island. Guimaraes's settler will be accompanied by an axeman. We get our Prophet on T211 and chain him to Hun to build the shrine on T212.

Last time I checked there were no barbs on the two one tile islands north of Ulundi so we can put unguarded settlers there.

2. I'd like to try to get all of our hospital finished on T209. Cash rushing a hospital with no hammers invested costs 600 gold. Whipping a hospital with no hammers invested in a city getting at least a 35% bonus costs 5 pop. I propose we whip hospitals in Vijay, Tolosa, Oporto, and Pigville, and chop one in Aachen. We can build one in X-ville in one turn by maximizing overflow from the settler and by converting the towns to workshops on T207 and T208. I've taken into account the loss of hammers from the end of the golden age and the switch out of CS for one turn.

I agree that whipping is the way forward.

Have you factored in the loss of ~150 bpt (from the towns around X-ville that are destroyed) when estimating our tech speed. To me it appears as if we learn Refrigeration in T214 and need to postpone victory to T215 e.g.

T206 Current turn
T208 Medicine discovered.
T210 Corporation discovered. Civilized Jewelers and Sid's Sushi founded.
T214 Refrigeration discovered. Cereal Mills founded.'
T215 Diplomatic Victory

Can you save a turn by MM'ing? Learning corporation (4 turns) will decrease our science output due to fewer trade routes and the end of the golden age (2 turns) will mean around 15% reduction in number of beakers per turn. Delhi coming out of anarchy (5 turns) will work in our favor because we get 70 gpt from the shrines alone!!

I know very little of corporations so I have a few questions: Can we found the corporations in any city or do they require special resources? And can we found two corporations in the same city or should we move one of the merchants to a different city than X-ville?

I some places where workshops are currently being built on top of towns we should abort the action. This is because cities with science multipliers are better off getting 5-6 commerce that are multiplied with 1.5 than 5-6 hammers that are multiplied with 1.10 or 1.35.

 

[Frederiksberg]

With these numbers, we can calculate how much we can afford to turn hammers into beakers and still be able to whip all of these wonders on T213. A city like Ulundi can afford to build beakers for 2-3 turns and whip its wonder. Everything hinges on getting Medicine on T208 and Corp on T209.

Interesting... Corp in one turn looks very hard indeed given that the golden age has ended by then.

 

[ShannonCT]

Have you factored in the loss of ~150 bpt (from the towns around X-ville that are destroyed) when estimating our tech speed. To me it appears as if we learn Refrigeration in T214 and need to postpone victory to T215 e.g.

Based on my previous post, I think we can keep some of X-ville's towns. We need 240 hammers in RC to whip it, and if we go full-bore with workshops, we'd have more than 400 hammers by T213.

We can MM for more beakers (building them and more scientists) and aim for Corp on T209, Refrig on T213. We can earn gold from war and pillage rather than our cities.

I know very little of corporations so I have a few questions: Can we found the corporations in any city or do they require special resources? And can we found two corporations in the same city or should we move one of the merchants to a different city than X-ville?

Any city, except Sushi and Cereal cant be in the same city.

I some places where workshops are currently being built on top of towns we should abort the action. This is because cities with science multipliers are better off getting 5-6 commerce that are multiplied with 1.5 than 5-6 hammers that are multiplied with 1.10 or 1.35.

Got it.

 

[ShannonCT]

Interesting... Corp in one turn looks very hard indeed given that the golden age has ended by then.

I will try to give a more convincing calculation tonight.

 

[leif erikson]

Great work. Sounds like we're nearly ready to take this game to its finish.

Anything you need done?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Should we consider hedging our bets by getting some Greek and Roman cities down to one defender in case we are forced to delay 6 turns and need to go for Conquest?

 

[Frederiksberg]

Should we consider hedging our bets by getting some Greek and Roman cities down to one defender in case we are forced to delay 6 turns and need to go for Conquest?

Let's see what SCT can come up with. If we are not certain that we can win in T214 I would prefer to postpone Diplomatic Victory to T215.

 

[ShannonCT]

OK, I MMed all of our cities for research. Have a look at the save. Beakers per turn is at 2389. With the 20% prereq bonus, that number is really 2866 bpt. Two turns at that rate gives 5732, and I estimate a 1960 beaker overflow from the previous tech. So in two turns, we have 7692 beakers. Medicine requires 6727 and Corp is 2392 (6727 + 2392 = 9119). So we would need 1427 beakers on the third turn to get Corp on T209. The end of the golden age certainly wont cause bpt to go down 50%. I think we should delay the one-turn slavery switch to T209, after corp comes in. Switching to slavery on T208 would reduce workshop output, and whipping all those hospitals would further reduce research at the critical time.

The way I have things MMed right now, we are losing 500+ gpt. We can sustain that loss for 2 turns. We could pick up another 400-500 gold within 2 turns by capturing Cumae and razing Ravenna. We might be able to raze Knossos too. And we can pillage the towns in former Indian territory that we wont be able to use in a timely manner.

 

[DJMGator13]

Originally Posted by leif erikson
Should we find The Great Wall in Cumae, is there even a need to take Antium?

Antium has Ankor Wat.

Here's a look at Cuma & the U of Sankore:



Next is Rome & the AP:




Finally we stop at Antium & the Angkor Wat:



Great Wall should be in the city of Rome, doesn't it center around the city it is built from? Besides the Wonder list tells us the U of Sankore is in Cumae so it should list any other wonders there also.

 

[DJMGator13]

Switching to slavery on T208 would reduce workshop output, and whipping all those hospitals would further reduce research at the critical time.

Don't we need to change out of State Property also for corporation to work?