SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[killercane]

I just tried this. Turns out workboats dont break a coastal resource connection, even when the capital only has 1 coastal tile.

It might also be the river . Who knows. Oh well. I just hate to have an unsuccessful attack on a hill city at this time. In terms of hammers, how many more hammers will it take to dislodge some axes rather than archers down the road? 2 cats overall?

 

[Cactus Pete]

It might also be the river . Who knows. Oh well. I just hate to have an unsuccessful attack on a hill city at this time. In terms of hammers, how many more hammers will it take to dislodge some axes rather than archers down the road? 2 cats overall?

Attacking the copper-hill city is attractive if, and only if, we only have only one archer to defeat. It's not just trading archers for axes down the road. It's eliminating the production of an additional city and the accelerated production in Ulundi if the copper gets mined again, plus the probability that Shaka will produce another settler and worker instead of military, not to mention the bit of gold we'd obtain from the city and the survival of forests for us to chop.

 

[ShannonCT]

It might also be the river . Who knows. Oh well. I just hate to have an unsuccessful attack on a hill city at this time. In terms of hammers, how many more hammers will it take to dislodge some axes rather than archers down the road? 2 cats overall?

I took away the river and gave him Sailing and coastal access at his capital.

 

[killercane]

Attacking the copper-hill city is attractive if, and only if, we only have only one archer to defeat. It's not just trading archers for axes down the road. It's eliminating the production of an additional city and the accelerated production in Ulundi if the copper gets mined again, plus the probability that Shaka will produce another settler and worker instead of military, not to mention the bit of gold we'd obtain from the city and the survival of forests for us to chop.

I dont think he will produce any settler until he has 4-5 units in the capital. And then he wont send it out til he has more units built. It should be time for our stack at the very least when he can do all of that. Certainly I would want him to build a worker or two to capture when we come gallivanting in.

No forests should be chopped by him if we have units in the appropriate places I would think.

The 4 (copper on PH?) hammers per turn over 30 turns is just 3-4 units produced. Better to keep him pinned down than risk a total disaster in losing all our choke units. He is really a minimal threat at the moment.

 

[rrau]

OK. Goal check: Are we trying for a medal? If so, I think we need to take risks and attack and get a city site for us to build wonders........Or since Shaka won't build wonders for us: We need to make nice and go find other civs to conquer that will build wonders. I don't want us to lose sight of the forest for the trees in this game like we do in so many others.

 

[ShannonCT]

Since Shaka has no worker in Ulundi right now, and since we will have another axe on the scene in a few turns, is there any reason not to send all 4 units toward the copper city, if we decide to attack it?

I'd like to see what Shaka does with that wandering archer next turn. If he sends it NW, the axe can attack it and the strength he has remaining would give us a better idea of our odds. And we could move the spear/warrior pair W and other warrior NW to get them closer to copper city.

OK. Goal check: Are we trying for a medal? If so, I think we need to take risks and attack and get a city site for us to build wonders........Or since Shaka won't build wonders for us: We need to make nice and go find other civs to conquer that will build wonders. I don't want us to lose sight of the forest for the trees in this game like we do in so many others.

Since we don't know where any other AI are right now, the best we can do right now is to capture Ulundi as early as possible. Successfully razing copper city before Shaka can produce any axemen will make that easier.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I lack time and motivation for playing at the moment so I suggest that I'm redefined to "lurker" (same as MP ). I'll see if I can give my 2 cents every now and then but don't expect me to play any sets.

 

[leif erikson]

I lack time and motivation for playing at the moment so I suggest that I'm redefined to "lurker" (same as MP ). I'll see if I can give my 2 cents every now and then but don't expect me to play any sets.

Sorry to hear this as we miss your insights and your excellent play!
Hoping that you can return to play status soon.
Thanks for letting us know.

 

[leif erikson]

OK. Goal check:

Thank you for the reality check.

The goal of taking Ulundi as a premier site for wonder building and great people production is certainly important. There are some competing goals as well. The goal to set up for fast research, via Oracle with CS sling, TGLighthouse with added commerce and TGLibrary with its research bonus.

I am still trying to figure out how all this comes together, as well as Fred's earlier posts concerning trying to win by Divine Right and Military Tradition versus a longer run to Mass Media. And we need to figure out if Astronomy will be needed.

I think we need to keep in mind all these things as we move forward and work on balancing them in concert with one another.

Having written that, we do need to make taking down Shaka as easy for ourselves as possible and it looks like the odds are in our favor regarding an attack on copper city. Why would we not wish to make one?

 

[killercane]

Having written that, we do need to make taking down Shaka as easy for ourselves as possible and it looks like the odds are in our favor regarding an attack on copper city. Why would we not wish to make one?

Losing a couple of units that choke Shaka will make the whole situation harder. I dont trust combat enough to get too risky. It is not when you take out Shaka, it is taking him out in an orderly fashion to enable Ulundi to get up to speed in due time. Copper city has no food so it should be razed.

The only reason to destroy it now is so that Shaka cannot build a few axemen. Impis do not matter much as they are not good city defenders. Axes are formidable city defenders vs. our future force of cats and axes. In other words, losing all our units now vs. the hilled copper city will endanger a medal greatly whereas being cautious will keep us in fine time for medals if we keep research up up up.

I suppose our consensus is to send the units up there to the copper city and attack with the axe first and assess the damage done. If relatively unsuccessful we can resume choke. It is the middling ground of a 2.0 archer that is most troubling. Hopefully the RNG makes it easier one way or the other to decide the proper course of action .

 

[ShannonCT]

The only reason to destroy it now is so that Shaka cannot build a few axemen. Impis do not matter much as they are not good city defenders. Axes are formidable city defenders vs. our future force of cats and axes. In other words, losing all our units now vs. the hilled copper city will endanger a medal greatly whereas being cautious will keep us in fine time for medals if we keep research up up up.

Axes are what we really have to worry about. Not only will axemen be tougher defenders, but they will make our warriors and spear ineffective choke units. If we knew that Shaka would only build impi for the next 25 turns, the preemptive strike now would seem less attractive. After all, we have a good map for defending against the mobility of impi.

Edit: just ran a test with Shaka having copper. He built 2 impi, followed by 4 axemen and an archer, over the course of 20 turns.

I suppose our consensus is to send the units up there to the copper city and attack with the axe first and assess the damage done. If relatively unsuccessful we can resume choke. It is the middling ground of a 2.0 archer that is most troubling. Hopefully the RNG makes it easier one way or the other to decide the proper course of action .

Another thing that would make it easier to decide would be if we could attack the wandering archer next turn. If, for instance, we killed the archer with so little damage taken that the axe was fully healed 5 turns later, the extra promotion would tip the scales further in our favor. Or if the axeman took a lot of damage so that he would have less than 4.5 strength 5 turns later, it would be less prudent to attempt an attack.

So, if Leif is up, perhaps he can play one turn to see what the archer does.

 

[leif erikson]

Axes are what we really have to worry about. Not only will axemen be tougher defenders, but they will make our warriors and spear ineffective choke units.

They also will endanger our Axes as he will probably have more than we will. Two Axes on one is never a good thing, when we have the one!

Edit: just ran a test with Shaka having copper. He built 2 impi, followed by 4 axemen and an archer, over the course of 20 turns.

Not surprised by this.

So, if Leif is up, perhaps he can play one turn to see what the archer does.

There are other unmoved units. Do we start moving our Warrior and Spear towards Cu City?

Also, as we come up on the Oracle and GLHouse, are there are pre-chopped forests? Seems like we should gte some ready?

 

[ShannonCT]

There are other unmoved units. Do we start moving our Warrior and Spear towards Cu City?

They need to move this turn to get to Copper City in time. There is no margin of error on the timing. On the turn the spear and warrior would get to the grass hill, the western warrior and axe need to be blocking the two plains tiles so that Copper City would have no hammer tiles to work for 1 turn.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Very disappointed to lose Fred. Hope he returns next game.

Axes are what we really have to worry about. Not only will axemen be tougher defenders, but they will make our warriors and spear ineffective choke units. He may pasture the horses and get chariots too, which will make it difficult even for an axe to prevent his chopping.If we knew that Shaka would only build impi for the next 25 turns, the preemptive strike now would seem less attractive. After all, we have a good map for defending against the mobility of impi. I'm worried about his building an impi in Ulundi -- before we are able to attack -- and coming after our forces dispersed to minimize hammers.

Edit: just ran a test with Shaka having copper. He built 2 impi, followed by 4 axemen and an archer, over the course of 20 turns.

Another thing that would make it easier to decide would be if we could attack the wandering archer next turn. If, for instance, we killed the archer with so little damage taken that the axe was fully healed 5 turns later, the extra promotion would tip the scales further in our favor. Or if the axeman took a lot of damage so that he would have less than 4.5 strength 5 turns later, it would be less prudent to attempt an attack.

So, if Leif is up, perhaps he can play one turn to see what the archer does.

I'm on board for a turn to see what the archer does. Also the possibility that he will remain in place, blocking our attack route. If we can't take out the copper-hill city, let's consider peace soon and perhaps settling next on the horse/fish site.

BTW, do we want to send both warriors after the city, or send one west or send one back home?

 

[ShannonCT]

BTW, do we want to send both warriors after the city, or send one west or send one back home?

The western warrior needs to move toward Copper City for the tile blocking to work. The other warrior would give us a marginally higher chance of razing Copper City. There's not much use in sending him home. He should either join the war party or explore west.

To minimize the chances of an impi from Ulundi killing the western warrior, he can hook up with the axeman next turn, both move to the forest near copper city, and then split off to block both plains for a turn. So he's only at risk for 1 turn, and the impi wont be able to reach him in 1 turn anyway.

 

[leif erikson]

BTW, do we want to send both warriors after the city, or send one west or send one back home?

Looks to me as though we will need all four, at least to block Cu City from getting any hammers for a turn.

 

[Cactus Pete]

The western warrior needs to move toward Copper City for the tile blocking to work. The other warrior would give us a marginally higher chance of razing Copper City. If we are not going to send a warrior home, and a second warrior only improves our chances marginally, why wouldn't we send the western warrior west?There's not much use in sending him home. Not sure I agree with that, though I'm not advocating strongly for sending him home. Having him home would decrease maintenance cost problems, plus -- once the axe moves west -- we will have no unit readily available if barbs show up on our peninsula. He should either join the war party or explore west

To minimize the chances of an impi from Ulundi killing the western warrior, he can hook up with the axeman next turn, both move to the forest near copper city, and then split off to block both plains for a turn. So he's only at risk for 1 turn, and the impi wont be able to reach him in 1 turn anyway.

Sounds good, but a lot of things are going to have to go right for this to work.

 

[leif erikson]

Sounds good, but a lot of things are going to have to go right for this to work.

Given our history of RNG fortune, we're in deep trouble!


Better start on those haka's ...

 

[killercane]

Also, as we come up on the Oracle and GLHouse, are there are pre-chopped forests? Seems like we should gte some ready?

Well with 4 workers we should be able to road and prechop all the forests I think .

 

[ShannonCT]

Well with 4 workers we should be able to road and prechop all the forests I think .

The two forests currently in PH City's workable area (check the city screen) can be chopped now that we're starting Oracle next turn. PH City can't complete Oracle in time with just one chop. Two chops is plenty, and will allow us to work the ivory or lake on the last few turns and speed population growth. Alternatively, we can chop one of the forests into Oracle on the turn before we want to complete it so as to maximize the overflow into barracks.

I think we can plan on finishing Oracle and CoL IBT69/70. As long as we can keep research at 100% for 10 more turns, we'll be a few beakers short of getting CoL IBT69/70 given our current citizen allocation. But a little MMing in the capital on the last few turns will get us CoL 1 turn sooner.