SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[ShannonCT]

Yes it does look ok. Wouldnt be too bad; I dont know quite where to place it exactly. It would acquire the deer at some point so I dont think that is essential in having it in the BFC. But if you put it on the forestless plains for fish sheep it has poor production. If you put it closer east to the hills it has production but less in food and forests will be worth less chopping.

Getting the furs early is the name of the game. The deer are nearly useless. The plains site to grab sheep and fish would have a marble quarry, a plains hill mine, and some plains forests for production. And again, workshops makes it a possible late-game wonder producer.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Okay, then when and where do we produce a settler for the SE of barbville site (and I'd locate it for maximum forest chopping)? The silence I think I'm going to hear is an indication of the need for such an additional production city.

Good point regarding workshops for the Portugese cities.

Couple other queries:

Don't recall any discussion of the Parthenon. Given our intent to produce a multitude of GPs, shouldn't that be on the agenda now?

SCT's analysis of the value of a GM's gold in beakers would also seem to hold true for the cost of stealing Philosophy -- meaning that such a theft is not as good a deal as it appears. Would it make sense to wait and extort it when we attack Joao? If not, and stealing it soon is essential, aren't we too dependent on the success of just one spy?

 

[ShannonCT]

Okay, then when and where do we produce a settler for the SE of barbville site (and I'd locate it for maximum forest chopping)?

And the corrollary: when do we produce a couple more units for taking Jute? In ~7 turns, our workers will have nothing much left to do but chop jungle. With workers freed up, we will have the means to improve two new cities quickly, and that's what we need so that they don't drag down our economy. Should we have Ivoryville build a unit or two immediately after the Uni? Or Horseville after MoM? Then maybe a settler in X-ville after Oxford?

Don't recall any discussion of the Parthenon. Given our intent to produce a multitude of GPs, shouldn't that be on the agenda now?

It would be of decent value. And I think it will go to the AI rather slowly. All the marble seems to be on our side of the map. Fastest place to build it would be X-ville, but that would pollute the GP stream. Canalville wont have any important build after Uni, but would take 20+ turns there. It could be chopped in the future fur city.

SCT's analysis of the value of a GM's gold in beakers would also seem to hold true for the cost of stealing Philosophy -- meaning that such a theft is not as good a deal as it appears. Would it make sense to wait and extort it when we attack Joao? If not, and stealing it soon is essential, aren't we too dependent on the success of just one spy?

You're absolutely right that the higher our civ-wide beaker bonus gets, the less advantage there is in turning commerce into EPs for stealing techs. Now with the EPs we already have accumulated against Joao, it makes sense to steal 1 tech from him, even if we need to convert some commerce to EPs to make up the difference.

I don't see any essential steals that we need soon. But yes, if we are going for an essential steal, having 2 spies ready eliminates most of the risk of failure.

 

[Cactus Pete]

And the corrollary: when do we produce a couple more units for taking Jute? In ~7 turns, our workers will have nothing much left to do but chop jungle. With workers freed up, we will have the means to improve two new cities quickly, and that's what we need so that they don't drag down our economy. Should we have Ivoryville build a unit or two immediately after the Uni? Inefficient before completing the HE, but perhaps so -- depends on timing.Or Horseville after MoM? I think we've considered MOA there, but additional cities may be more important. Then maybe a settler in X-ville after Oxford? Sure would like to get it started somewhere else sooner. Like to get a market and forge in X-ville for long-term use.

It would be of decent value. And I think it will go to the AI rather slowly. All the marble seems to be on our side of the map. Fastest place to build it would be X-ville, but that would pollute the GP stream. Canalville wont have any important build after Uni, but would take 20+ turns there. It could be chopped in the future fur city. Wouldn't that chop be about twenty turns away too, especially if we chop a granary and courthouse first? If so, I'd opt for Canalville.

You're absolutely right that the higher our civ-wide beaker bonus gets, the less advantage there is in turning commerce into EPs for stealing techs. Now with the EPs we already have accumulated against Joao, it makes sense to steal 1 tech from him, even if we need to convert some commerce to EPs to make up the difference. That makes sense. Then let's get the espionage accomplished quickly, if we are going to do it, especially if we make contact with another civ. It will probably be a bad use of funds to try to build up enough EP to steal a second tech. We would want to move all our intelligence to that new civ as soon as possible after we meet it.

I don't see any essential steals that we need soon. But yes, if we are going for an essential steal, having 2 spies ready eliminates most of the risk of failure.

May not be essential but am arguing above that we still may want to get it done ASAP.

 

[Mad Professor]

Mad Professor - Where oh where is he now?

Oh - I'm here. Again. Occasionally. I'm passing through Kisumu again. There are rumours of a satellite dish in Maragoli sometime in the next few months and then I'll be able to get online each day. That I will believe when I see it. Until then, when I pass through Kisumu, I get to catch up the reading!

You guys are doing well. Keep up the good work.

 

[leif erikson]

If we fire the two Merchants in Stoneville, a Settler requires 15 turns. If we start now, we should be able to whip it once we switch back to Slavery/OR, around turn 128? We should probably send an MP unit that way on the galley that picks up the Settler. We should have some temporary vacancies once we whip away some pop for those Universities?

Oh - I'm here. Again. Occasionally. I'm passing through Kisumu again. There are rumours of a satellite dish in Maragoli sometime in the next few months and then I'll be able to get online each day. That I will believe when I see it. Until then, when I pass through Kisumu, I get to catch up the reading!

You guys are doing well. Keep up the good work.

Nice to hear from you MP.
How long before you return to Australia?
Hope all is well. You must have been reading all night?

 

[killercane]

Getting the furs early is the name of the game. The deer are nearly useless. The plains site to grab sheep and fish would have a marble quarry, a plains hill mine, and some plains forests for production. And again, workshops makes it a possible late-game wonder producer.

Now THAT is a bad city. Er wait, now that I have the game open I see what you mean: there are furs! at the fishmarblesheep site. How great is toggle all resources? I never saw them otherwise; I was thinking you were suggesting some tundra city.

The addition of the furs and markets makes that a great site CP! Good call.

 

[killercane]

May not be essential but am arguing above that we still may want to get it done ASAP.

Horseville can grow while building units after finishing mom; it doesnt need a barracks at all yet, sinc eit builds 3 archers for the 3 cities in need of mps; it can then build a ballista or horse archer or chariots. Stoneville works for building a settler ok per LE (but doesnt it only have 1 or 2 real tiles to work?). Both of those are non uni cities and can start on their business soon.

Canalville could probably build a settler or Parthenon, either one depending on Stoneville.

We dont need to chop a granary and courthouse in Furville. It needs to save those for Taj.

What about the adoption of early Communism vs. saving lib for Radio? Like soon through Liberalism and not wait for Radio? The advantage is Kremlin is built asap, we get the 10% hammers bonus, dont have to worry about courthouses for conquering, get a great spy to pair with another artist or scientist for the 3rd golden age etc, etc.

 

[ShannonCT]

If we fire the two Merchants in Stoneville, a Settler requires 15 turns. If we start now, we should be able to whip it once we switch back to Slavery/OR, around turn 128? We should probably send an MP unit that way on the galley that picks up the Settler. We should have some temporary vacancies once we whip away some pop for those Universities?

Nice idea Leif. You might have found a way to make Stoneville useful. If the galley could pick up a scout near Horseville/Jute/Furville and deliver it to the South Pole, that would be double trouble!

What about the adoption of early Communism vs. saving lib for Radio? Like soon through Liberalism and not wait for Radio? The advantage is Kremlin is built asap, we get the 10% hammers bonus, dont have to worry about courthouses for conquering, get a great spy to pair with another artist or scientist for the 3rd golden age etc, etc.

Early Communism certainly sounds attractive, especially with the power it gives workshops. Communism requires Liberalism and Scientific Method. If by the time we get to SM (don't want to burn GSs on this as it obsoletes GLib), we have 6 GSs, it's probably better to burn 3 on Physics and 3 + free 1 on Electricity and take Radio with Liberalism. Communism is ~4800 beakers cheaper than Radio, and Radio is not easy to bulb.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Nice idea Leif. You might have found a way to make Stoneville useful. If the galley could pick up a scout near Horseville/Jute/Furville and deliver it to the South Pole, that would be double trouble! Enthusiastic about this plan.

Early Communism certainly sounds attractive, especially with the power it gives workshops. Communism requires Liberalism and Scientific Method. If by the time we get to SM (don't want to burn GSs on this as it obsoletes GLib), we have 6 GSs, it's probably better to burn 3 on Physics and 3 + free 1 on Electricity and take Radio with Liberalism. Communism is ~4800 beakers cheaper than Radio, and Radio is not easy to bulb.

Sounds good. Hope we have all those options.

 

[killercane]

Nice idea Leif. You might have found a way to make Stoneville useful. If the galley could pick up a scout near Horseville/Jute/Furville and deliver it to the South Pole, that would be double trouble!



Early Communism certainly sounds attractive, especially with the power it gives workshops. Communism requires Liberalism and Scientific Method. If by the time we get to SM (don't want to burn GSs on this as it obsoletes GLib), we have 6 GSs, it's probably better to burn 3 on Physics and 3 + free 1 on Electricity and take Radio with Liberalism. Communism is ~4800 beakers cheaper than Radio, and Radio is not easy to bulb.

Well you have to bulb Biology before Electricity (insert my emphasis on National Park site here). We can either wait to get Sci Method or grab it and immediately grab Physics and Biology to mitigate the loss of TGL, Parthenon, et al.

Waiting to get SM means going ahead and grabbing Corporation. This gets us into the highly micromanaged endgame where we have to balance research with buying out wonders. Biology earlier means we have more specialists earlier to bulb/research with Representation. We really need radio to start doing the switch to and from Rep/Uni Sufferage however. So it is really early Radio to get Redentor vs. earlier workshops and things with Communism, and I think we will probably research like heck towards Electricity and Radio.

 

[ShannonCT]

Well you have to bulb Biology before Electricity (insert my emphasis on National Park site here). We can either wait to get Sci Method or grab it and immediately grab Physics and Biology to mitigate the loss of TGL, Parthenon, et al.

You can bulb Electricity before Bio by avoiding Engineering-Chemistry. That would be a typical strategy for a Diplo win. But if we can find a good site for National Park, maybe Bio first is better.

I've added changes to my pre-play plan. I can play through turn 127 tonight since there doesn't seem to be any question about what we need to do up to that point.

 

[killercane]

You can bulb Electricity before Bio by avoiding Engineering-Chemistry. That would be a typical strategy for a Diplo win. But if we can find a good site for National Park, maybe Bio first is better.

I've added changes to my pre-play plan. I can play through turn 127 tonight since there doesn't seem to be any question about what we need to do up to that point.

Well who knows. I usually trade for engineering so if we follow the plan the AI might not have it for trade. We certainly will use the road movement at some point.

Go ahead and play. I think you could go to T130 really.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Your good to go here.

 

[rrau]

Good luck!!

 

[leif erikson]

Looks good to me!

If you haven't started yet, please do.

 

[ShannonCT]

OK, starting now.

 

[leif erikson]

OK, starting now.

Good Luck...

 

[ShannonCT]

I stopped at turn 128 after encountering a little problem. Here's what's happened so far:

T121) Reduce research to 50% to get Music in 5 turns. Cancel fish deal with Joao to try to get 1 more gpt, but after canceling, he has 0 gpt available. Sell Construction to Joao for 20 gold. We get +1 for fair trade relations and another +1 for sharing techs, so we are at Pleased again. MM cities.

IBT Joao asks for Currency and I refuse, since we will still be at Pleased. We get -1 diplo.

T122) Joao has 2 gpt available, so I sell him our fish again. Joao has started MC, 15 turns away. Also beg 20 gold from Joao and he gives it. 5 cities grow pop and are MMed accordingly (no I dont want to hire a merchant guv'nor).

IBT Great Spy born in a far away land.

T123) Marbleville grows to Pop7. Canalville converted to Confucianism.

IBT Great Prophet is born in X-ville

T124) Marbleville and Stoneville grow and are MMed. Prophet builds the Kong Miao in Pigville, earning 7gpt. Reduce research to 40% for Music in 2 turns. Unload spy in Portugal and send galley to explore fog to the south. Cancel clam to Joao and trade clam for wine.

T125) Marbleville and Canalville grow. Zoomed out in culture view, I see a purple tile off of Joao's west coast, but too far away for our galley to make contact.

IBT Free Great Artist born in X-ville

T126) Music->Compass. Set research to 0%, earning 96gpt and 36bpt. Finish 2 chops for Horseville and MoM is now 1 turn away. I notice the +1 bonus for sharing techs with Joao has gone away, so we are back at Cautious.

T127) MoM completed in Horseville, start Ballista. Horseville, Marbleville, and Stoneville grow. Start golden age. Change civics to Slavery/OR. Joao is sending a settler to settle to the strip of jungle between us. MM X-ville to come close to completing temple, and let X-ville use fish of Marbleville.

T128) Pigville, Canalville, and Ulundi grow. Whip Unis in Ulundi, Canalville, Ivoryville, and Pigville. When I go to whip a Uni in Marbleville, the option is not there. It has 13 hammers in the Uni, and 5 pop should give 150 hammers + 25% = 187. I'll stop here and test if Uni will be available for whip next turn.

 

[ShannonCT]

OK, just tested the problem. Putting 5 more hammers into the Uni in Marbleville will make it elligible for whipping next turn. X-ville needs to start building something else for a turn because we dont want temple to complete this turn. A missionary for Horseville is one option.