SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[Cactus Pete]

SCT, in your calculations of GM vs GS, have you factored in the extra three science beakers per turn we get while running a GS?

Agree that we can probably get along fine without trebuchets, but would point out that one of their great advantages is their much more powerful attack against cities compared to cats.

 

[Cactus Pete]

SGOTM08 REPORT FOR TURNS 153-159 The Case of the Disappearing Archer


153 (860AD): Start harbor in Pigville and queue harbor in Canalville; switch to theater in Marbleville; take Stoneville citizen off forest and put on mine to get harbor in three turns; trade Music to India for 50 gold; trade marble to Caesar for sugar and 3gpt and furs to Charlemagne for dyes (but still can’t get Open Borders with either one); adjust citizens in several cities to get units built more quickly; close borders with Joao – HA is unfortunately teleported west of Jute and archer 1NE onto plains.

IBT: Joao cancels fish contract and our spy is caught (will probably build another so points not wasted); GS born in Antium and we get a GM in Ulundi

154: get Open Borders with India; archer near Jute has disappeared!!; no longbows visible; trade Drama to Joao for 50 gold and declare war; kill both archers in Santarem and wait for Ballistas to dispense with chariot next turn; scouting reveals praetorian in Antium and 1 sword and 1 cat in Lagos with 20% culture; GM sent east for eventual transport to Bibracte via caravel; various units built and moved west.

155: Gunpowder>MT; complete crossbow in X-ville and begin observatory (also start running one priest and one engineer to both speed build and get another GP sooner); mace built in Ulundi, begin 2-turn spy there while running 4 scientists and an engineer; Santarem razed, gain 43 gold;

IBT: “The water supply of Canalville poisoned by enemy infiltrators.”

156: Complete harbor in Stoneville and begin theater; trade Drama to Boudica, Caesar, and Charlemagne for 130 gold and maps; adjust Canalville for drought conditions; continue advance on Braga.

157: Complete spy in Ulundi and switch to CI, while running 7 scientists and an engineer with -1 food; Confucianism spread to Setia (remote Roman island city), GG for Celts and GS for Greece; scout finds Ghandi with a war elephant;

IBT: Celts capture Aachen from Charlemagne.

158: Trade Drama to Pericles for 70 gold; only swordsman and archer in Leiria with 20% culture; scout reports there is now a courthouse in Cumae;

IBT: Both Ghandi and Boutica come asking to trade maps – rather than spurn their offers, I negotiate to buy theirs for 5 gold each; tornadoes carve path of destruction through Roman empire; GPriest born in X-ville
159: Observatory in X-ville>stable (but wondering about Apostolic Palace); Braga’s culture expands, causing the attack to be delayed a turn; send worker toward Ivoryville to construct workshop over a farm; maximize specialists in Marbleville and minimize them in Ulundi – otherwise, we’ll never get a GP out of Marbleville

Things have gone well. Would like to proceed in about 5 hours but will wait for approval – particularly regarding PP and the use of specialists noted and highlighted immediately above. Also would like to hear thoughts on relative benefits of using gold from future GM trade route to maximize science vs upgrading ballsitas and HAs and perhaps even galleys.

Interim save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=195219&stc=1&d=1227549303

 

[ShannonCT]

SCT, in your calculations of GM vs GS, have you factored in the extra three science beakers per turn we get while running a GS?

Yes. Merchants give 3 extra gold compared to scientists. And since the gold->beaker conversion rate in Ulundi (1.5) is lower than the nationwide average (1.746), it's better to get 3 gold than 3 beakers. In fact, the only city that would benefit from scientists is X-ville, because that's the only city where we are getting a beaker bonus of more than 75%.

Agree that we can probably get along fine without trebuchets, but would point out that one of their great advantages is their much more powerful attack against cities compared to cats.

I would think having such overwhelming tech superiority would lessen the advantage of attacking with trebs.

archer near Jute has disappeared!!;

I guess he deleted him?

IBT: “The water supply of Canalville poisoned by enemy infiltrators.”

scout finds Ghandi with a war elephant

We need to remember this later. This is probably a good reason to save Gandhi for later when we have overwhelming force.

159: Observatory in X-ville>stable (but wondering about Apostolic Palace)

AP should be easy to capture. If we're not going for religious victory, seems like units are more important.

maximize specialists in Marbleville and minimize them in Ulundi – otherwise, we’ll never get a GP out of Marbleville

That's not necessary. Marbleville can get to 900 GPPs before Ulundi can. Full steam ahead with Ulundi's merchants. And consider trading Compass to Gandhi and Augustus so that one of them might build a harbor to make the next trade mission more valuable.

Things have gone well. Would like to proceed in about 5 hours but will wait for approval – particularly regarding PP and the use of specialists noted and highlighted immediately above. Also would like to hear thoughts on relative benefits of using gold from future GM trade route to maximize science vs upgrading ballsitas and HAs and perhaps even galleys.

Yes, proceed. I approve of PP. And yes, let's upgrade ballistas and HAs ASAP. There's no time to lose in taking out Joao. With unit costs climbing under Pacifism, we need high-quality units rather than hordes of weaker ones.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Yes. Merchants give 3 extra gold compared to scientists. And since the gold->beaker conversion rate in Ulundi (1.5) is lower than the nationwide average (1.746), it's better to get 3 gold than 3 beakers. In fact, the only city that would benefit from scientists is X-ville, because that's the only city where we are getting a beaker bonus of more than 75%. Thanks, that actionable advice.

I would think having such overwhelming tech superiority would lessen the advantage of attacking with trebs. Agreed.

I guess he deleted him? Hadn't considered that possibility . . . mighty considerate of Joao.

We need to remember this later. This is probably a good reason to save Gandhi for later when we have overwhelming force. Only saw one WE, and we can probably cut off his ivory trade if needed.

AP should be easy to capture. If we're not going for religious victory, seems like units are more important. Understood.

That's not necessary. Marbleville can get to 900 GPPs before Ulundi can. Full steam ahead with Ulundi's merchants. And consider trading Compass to Gandhi and Augustus so that one of them might build a harbor to make the next trade mission more valuable. That surprises me, but I'll double check your math and proceed as you suggest unless I see a problem.

Yes, proceed. I approve of PP. And yes, let's upgrade ballistas and HAs ASAP. There's no time to lose in taking out Joao. With unit costs climbing under Pacifism, we need high-quality units rather than hordes of weaker ones.

Will do. . . .

Playing again in about three hours.

 

[leif erikson]

Joao now knows Augustus and he has Feudalism and Augustus does not. Augustus is pleased with Joao. If we get real lucky, perhaps Joao will be able to trade for Engineering, making it no longer unique. We could even extort it if its available?

I'm a bit fearful of Apostolic Palace being built by Gandhi or Augustus. I have played games in which I took cities and was forced to give them back by the vote of the AP. It would really suck to get, say Delhi, and be forced to give it up.

Also, if Augustus, Gandhi or Pericles builds the AP, spreads the AP religion to us somehow, can they not vote themselves a religious victory?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sounds, kleif, like we are going to want to capture the AP fairly soon after it's built. If the threat is not too great, better to have one less wonder to build. (I've no experience with, or knowledge of, the effect of AP.)

 

[ShannonCT]

Joao now knows Augustus and he has Feudalism and Augustus does not. Augustus is pleased with Joao. If we get real lucky, perhaps Joao will be able to trade for Engineering, making it no longer unique. We could even extort it if its available?

I notice Joao has a couple new cities somewhere, maybe in the tundra. Leaving him with a couple crappy cities and extorting tech might be the way to go.

I'm a bit fearful of Apostolic Palace being built by Gandhi or Augustus. I have played games in which I took cities and was forced to give them back by the vote of the AP. It would really suck to get, say Delhi, and be forced to give it up.

Also, if Augustus, Gandhi or Pericles builds the AP, spreads the AP religion to us somehow, can they not vote themselves a religious victory?

You dont ever have to give cities back. You just defy the resolution and get some extra unhappiness in the cities that share the same religion as the AP. That wont have any effect on our cities that don't have that religion.

 

[leif erikson]

You dont ever have to give cities back. You just defy the resolution and get some extra unhappiness in the cities that share the same religion as the AP. That wont have any effect on our cities that don't have that religion.

Are you sure? I don't recall having the religion and did not get a vote, it seems to me they just assigned it back to the owner?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sounds consistent with my experience, leif.

Playing now, though fitfully . . . will check the thread.

 

[leif erikson]

Sounds consistent with my experience, leif.

Playing now, though fitfully . . . will check the thread.

Keep up the good work CP!

 

[Cactus Pete]

SGOTM08 REPORT FOR TURNS 159-163​

No Surprises​

159: Re-deploy merchant specialists in Ulundi

IBT: Gandhi completes CI; GProphet born in Delhi; Portuguese citizens in Faro (island SW of Jute) decorate their public buildings with marble statues?? (not clear what the payoff to Joao for this is)

160: Braga falls (6 units defending) sans courthouse but with 105 gold at cost of two cats; trade Compass to Gandhi and Augustus for a total of 80 gold;

IBT: a mine (near Ulundi) is destroyed by enemy infiltrators

161: Continue advance on Portuguese cities

IBT: Confucianism spreads to Stoneville; money changers add 1 gold to X-ville’s commerce (big deal, but at least no act of God)

162: Trade Music and Compass to Boudica for Feudalism and 70 gold; trade rice to Boudica for wine; GM completes trade mission, adding 1500 gold to treasury

IBT: GArtist born in Ulundi

163: PP>SM (not clear that we want to complete this research, and lose GLIB, before we get DR, Guilds, etc.); Leiria razed with 165 gold gained and 1 cat lost;

Made a mistake starting an archer in Canalville (intended for MP duty in the west), but then traded for Feudalism when the opportunity arose and the build was automatically switched to a crossbow.

Unexpected guests, so less progress than expected. Stopping for the night, but would like to complete two more turns during the day tomorrow before I turn it over.

SCT, can you tell me where I should set the espionage slider to get enough points to incite revolt in two turns? (Spy has been in city two turns, but not clear if arrival turn counts.) Also interested in suggestions as to what to build next in Pigville (Hermitage, commerce, cat?) and in Furville (forge, Taj, barracks?).

Here is the interim save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=195277&stc=1&d=1227594358

 

[ShannonCT]

SCT, can you tell me where I should set the espionage slider to get enough points to incite revolt in two turns? (Spy has been in city two turns, but not clear if arrival turn counts.) Also interested in suggestions as to what to build next in Pigville (Hermitage, commerce, cat?) and in Furville (forge, Taj, barracks?).

It looks like 1 turn at 50% should do the trick. After we've burned all of those EPs on the city revolt, please reassign our EPs to Gandhi and Augustus.

Some slow wonder builds in Pigville and Furville sound fine. No hurry in chopping the Taj. Most of our workers need to be building workshops, especially around Furville, Jute, Ulundi, Ivoryville, and X-ville.

Other notes:

We can trade copper to Charlemagne for 5 gpt and bananas. We don't need it, and he already has iron.

It looks like we have enough power in the west to finish Joao, including the 7 units that can be upgraded to Cuirassiers. Let's start accumulating units in the east to attack Boudica.

Marbleville can hire 2 more merchants to get a GM or GS in 5 turns.

The GArtist can be saved for CivJewelers Corp. It came a bit earlier than I would have liked. Maybe we should delay SM for a few turns so we can hang on to GLib and Artemis for a few more turns. We can pre-research Liberalism, and Guilds would be good for the workshops we're already using (although we should be able to trade for Guilds before too long). I'm wondering if we should allow Gandhi to try for DR first. He had a Prophet born a few turns back. Maybe he'll save it and build the Islamic shrine?

 

[leif erikson]

Looking good CP!

Do we need a Galleon from Pigville to support the movement of troops to Boudica's territory?

Won't we need a group of Cats to go east as well? We'll need to take one city before we can station Airships because of their range. I think we can have 4 Airships per city? Once we have a foothold, and gain enough cities to station them, it should get easier.

Another Great Merchant will be nice...

 

[Cactus Pete]

It looks like 1 turn at 50% should do the trick. After we've burned all of those EPs on the city revolt, please reassign our EPs to Gandhi and Augustus. Understood.

Some slow wonder builds in Pigville and Furville sound fine. No hurry in chopping the Taj. Decide that we are going to need more galleons, so that's the next build in Furville. Most of our workers need to be building workshops, especially around Furville, Jute, Ulundi, Ivoryville, and X-ville. Yes, and need to get one or two into Portugal as well.

Other notes:

We can trade copper to Charlemagne for 5 gpt and bananas. We don't need it, and he already has iron. Thanks, missed that.

It looks like we have enough power in the west to finish Joao, including the 7 units that can be upgraded to Cuirassiers. Let's start accumulating units in the east to attack Boudica. Been wrestling with this for several turns. We do have enough units, but there are five or six cities to take, and the quicker we finish Joao, the better. Then we can start moving some units back east via galleon chain and west through India, plus we can hopefully start on the Forbidden Palace. Moreover, without moving units back east, it will be several turns before we can mount an effective invasion force against the Celts and cuirassiers could only be moved to the other continent and have to sit and wait. So, I'm going to run two more cuirassiers west.

Marbleville can hire 2 more merchants to get a GM or GS in 5 turns. There's a library and university in Marbleville, so I reasoned that there is significant long-term value in growing the city, and the GP will be produced before the next one in Ulundi. Compromising and adding one more merchant specialist.

The GArtist can be saved for CivJewelers Corp. Yes. It came a bit earlier than I would have liked. Maybe we should delay SM for a few turns so we can hang on to GLib and Artemis for a few more turns. We can pre-research Liberalism, and Guilds would be good for the workshops we're already using (although we should be able to trade for Guilds before too long). I'm wondering if we should allow Gandhi to try for DR first. He had a Prophet born a few turns back. Maybe he'll save it and build the Islamic shrine?

Going to essentially pass the buck on this decision.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Playing now.

 

[Cactus Pete]

CACTUS PETE

SGOTM08 REPORT FOR TURNS 163-165​

Most of the Action IBT​

163: As per SCT’s suggestion, copper traded to Charlemagne for bananas and 5 gold.

IBT: Buddism spreads to Furville

164: Continuation

IBT: A pasture (our only horse source near Horseville!!) is destroyed by enemy infiltrators; another spy is caught near Braga; Apostolic Palace election between Gandhi and Caesar (who owns AP, I think in Prague) . . . vote for Gandhi, results unknown; Charlemagne gets a GG; Boudica get a GE (hope she builds a world wonder); India captures the barb city of Hun (location unknown); Islam founded in a distant land.

165: Trade 5 gold for India’s map and find Hun to be the desirable barb city just north of Mycenae, and it is there that Islam was founded; spy incites revolt in Oporto, which is attacked and captured (again, sans courthouse), but with heavy losses – 1 cat, 1 cuirassier (very unlucky), and 1 crossbow, plus Joao gets a GG in Lisbon;


Here is the save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm8/Xteam_SG008_AD1050_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

NOTES

Please check to see if I remembered to re-set EP points to Augustus and Gandhi

Spear SW of Furville is well fortified.

Intending to load cat on galleon with cuirassier near Oporto and transport south toward Lisbon

Triremes have ignored galleon, even when fully loaded, as long as it hugs the coast

Ships near Marbleville standing by to transport GM (check to see if anyone has built a harbor), with galley to be upgraded if gold available and chained with caravel, otherwise primarily caravel

Intending for galleon west of Braga to take cat(s) and healed ballista in Braga toward Lagos or Evora for early bombardment

Only six cats remain in theater, so they must be used judiciously

There is cuirassier in galleon west of Pigville

Have begun workshop on unimproved floodplain WSW of Jute, but abandoned those efforts temporarily to get workers to horses

Gandhi will trade his horses, but at a high price – this merits discussion. If trade made, then X-ville, Horseville, and Ivoryville can change builds back to cuirassiers

 

[ShannonCT]

IBT: A pasture (our only horse source near Horseville!!) is destroyed by enemy infiltrators;

That is perhaps the smartest thing I've ever seen the AI do with a spy.

Ships near Marbleville standing by to transport GM (check to see if anyone has built a harbor), with galley to be upgraded if gold available and chained with caravel, otherwise primarily caravel

Yes, let's upgrade the galley and chain the GM (caravel to galleon) to Bibracte.

Have begun workshop on unimproved floodplain WSW of Jute, but abandoned those efforts temporarily to get workers to horses

Gandhi will trade his horses, but at a high price – this merits discussion. If trade made, then X-ville, Horseville, and Ivoryville can change builds back to cuirassiers

That's an expensive deal to get horses 3 turns earlier. Why don't we build cats and ballistas for a few turns until horses are reconnected. In fact, if we prebuild a ballista to within a turn of completion, it should morph into a Cuirassier build when we hook horses.

Speaking of trading with Gandhi, we can sell him sheep that we really don't need. Our biggest cities are still +4 health.

 

[leif erikson]

Nice work CP!

Joao is hurting...

Roster:
leif - UP
ShannonCT - On Deck
rrau
Cactus Pete - just played!

Mad Professor - Still for that local internet connection...
Frederiksberg - Providing some excellent food for thought.
Jimmy Thunder - On Sabbatical
Gator - Still there?
Killercane - Retired.

I'll have a look but can't promise much of a plan until after Thanksgiving.

Keep those suggestions coming.

We do need to reallocate Espionage Points, they are all going to Boudica atm. Do we want to see her demographics? At +8 per turn, it will require at least 4 turns.
We need 64 for Augustus and 26 for Gandhi

The Apostolic Palace is in Rome.

A bit concerned about bad RNG and the Barb Spear near Furville, with no other military units nearby.

Our Horse Archers cannot be upgraded to Cuirassier directly, we need Guilds to upgrade to Knight and then to Cuirassier...

Looks like we need to get Horses hooked back up. Will look at that more later. Good suggestion SCT.

AT SCT, I assume that chaining a Great Merchant to Bibracte is reference to the one about to be born in Marbleville?

I assume no delay in Scientific Method? On to Physics. Liberalism can wait as the AI do not have Paper or CS...

Be interested to see what Gandhi does with Islam...

 

[Cactus Pete]

:
I'll have a look but can't promise much of a plan until after Thanksgiving. I'll be out of touch most of time until Sunday, so don't hurry on my account.

Keep those suggestions coming. You asked . . .

We do need to reallocate Espionage Points, they are all going to Boudica atm. Had a bad feeling about that. I got distracted. Think it's been only one turn or none, though. Do we want to see her demographics? At +8 per turn, it will require at least 4 turns.
We need 64 for Augustus and 26 for Gandhi

The Apostolic Palace is in Rome. Something happened in Prague, perhaps a GP.

A bit concerned about bad RNG and the Barb Spear near Furville, with no other military units nearby. You can get one there by galleon from Portugal pretty quickly if the spear goes around or defeats ours. It's programmed to be agressive, and, if it defeats our spear (which is not likely, given the fortified defensive position), it won't proceed before healing, and that should give enough time to recover.

Our Horse Archers cannot be upgraded to Cuirassier directly, we need Guilds to upgrade to Knight and then to Cuirassier... No knights on foot.

Looks like we need to get Horses hooked back up. Will look at that more later. Good suggestion SCT. Yes, I had set up to go in those directions if no trade made. We probably want one cat and mace on our first galleon east anyway. If you don't complete builds, there's no upkeep, so you could have three partially built units in queue.

AT SCT, I assume that chaining a Great Merchant to Bibracte is reference to the one about to be born in Marbleville? Yes, it's six turns away, so no need to upgrade the galley just yet. Use that upgraded galleon for the first leg and then send it west to help chain units east.

I assume no delay in Scientific Method? On to Physics. Liberalism can wait as the AI do not have Paper or CS... Not sure about that. Those two scientists from the GLIB are certainly helpful.

Be interested to see what Gandhi does with Islam...

He produced a GProphet not so long ago.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Research=Engineering>SM, because . . .

If we are going to run merchant specialists, instead of scientists, and research ourselves and not bulb, then aren't we better off gaining the movement and access to trebs from Engineering. The drawback is that we will get a GS from Physics and possibly another from Ulundi, neither of which will be useful for bulbing. The certain one from Physics has a likely use down the road to create a Golden Age with some future excess GP. The possible one from Ulundi, which will be less likely the sooner we research SM, is a price worth paying for the immediate benefits of Engineering. If we do this, then the three military cities should probably build trebs while the horses are being re-pastured.

I am concerned about Caesar spreading his religion, and the AP thereby gaining power and influence. This may be the fear of the unknown. Is there a good explanation of how the AP works and perhaps how to deal with it anywhere?

Will be off computer until Sunday.

HAVE A GREAT THANKSGIVING, X-TEAM!