SGOTM 08 - XTeam

[Cactus Pete]

Appreciate the good work, leif.

What if India's GP is headed for Hun?

How do you propose we deal with Versailles?

BTW, your finish dates for several wonders are slow, as they don't factor in chopping and workshops coming on line.

What do we need to build, other than 6 banks, that are prerequisites for wonders?

What are these hit musicals/records that I see on the tech tree? Do they fit in with wonders?

What figures to be the last wonder we will be able to build or buy?

 

[leif erikson]

What if India's GP is headed for Hun?

As SCT pointed out, Gandhi has Open Borders with everyone. Counting 6-tiles from Delhi, we can see nearly all the tiles that have adequate roads on them. While we help Charles be our vassal next turn, we can watch for Gandhi's Great Prophet and can switch if need be. Not sure this warrants changing Gandhi first? It is four turns for a GP to reach Hun from Delhi and once in Greek territory, he has it made, in three turns...

How do you propose we deal with Versailles?

Augustus does not yet have Divine Right, so he can't build it. It is an 800 hammer wonder with double production speed with Marble. Divine Right is a one turn research, so we could build it in Guimaraes after Kremlin if needed?

BTW, your finish dates for several wonders are slow, as they don't factor in chopping and workshops coming on line.

Yes, I am a bit overwhelmed by this save and situation and decided to try to take it in bits. A summary first to see if we have all the bases covered, roughly. Just used the numbers provided by the city summaries. More detail is required in getting the scheduling completed.

What do we need to build, other than 6 banks, that are prerequisites for wonders?

If we want to get Red Cross, then we'll need six Hospitals. For those, we must research Medicine. Seems like the logical place to head next given how far behind the other civs are. Now that we know how to use the Great People we want for Golden Ages, researching to Corporation can be delayed a bit because no hammers are involved in getting the corporations built, only a Great Person, much like shrines are built.

EDIT - We will need Refrigeration in order to build Cereal Mills. Although we can also avoid Refrigeration if we build Sid's Sushi Co. (Great Merchant) as we need Medicine for that and we also need it for Hospitals and Red Cross.

What are these hit musicals/records that I see on the tech tree? Do they fit in with wonders?

Yes, when we complete Broadway, we get Hit Musicals. When we complete Hollywood, we get Hit Movies. They each provide a +1 to our cities, just like Gems or Gold.

What figures to be the last wonder we will be able to build or buy?

imho, the last ones we build are the least expensive in hammers, such as National Park (300 hammers). Seems that tech priorities should be to get the ones needed to build the most expensive wonders (in hammers) and then whatever else we need?

 

[Cactus Pete]

As SCT pointed out, Gandhi has Open Borders with everyone. Counting 6-tiles from Delhi, we can see nearly all the tiles that have adequate roads on them. While we help Charles be our vassal next turn, we can watch for Gandhi's Great Prophet and can switch if need be. Not sure this warrants changing Gandhi first? It is four turns for a GP to reach Hun from Delhi and once in Greek territory, he has it made, in three turns...So, we go ahead and attack Gandhi next and just build Versailles before Caesar capitulates, figuring Gandhi won't build it in one of his remaining poor cities, or are we going to try to get it built before we bond with India? We may want to try to keep an eye on that GE.

If we want to get Red Cross, then we'll need six Hospitals. Is this practical?

EDIT - We will need Refrigeration in order to build Cereal Mills. Although we can also avoid Refrigeration if we build Sid's Sushi Co. (Great Merchant) as we need Medicine for that and we also need it for Hospitals and Red Cross. If we get a GM from X-ville, is the plan to try to build both? I'm unclear on this.

Yes, when we complete Broadway, we get Hit Musicals. When we complete Hollywood, we get Hit Movies. They each provide a +1 to our cities, just like Gems or Gold. So, they'll just help reduce ww.

imho, the last ones we build are the least expensive in hammers, such as National Park (300 hammers). Because we won't need to hoard so much gold? Seems that tech priorities should be to get the ones needed to build the most expensive wonders (in hammers) and then whatever else we need?

That's clear enough.

 

[ShannonCT]

There's a lot to think about in these final few turnsets, so I'll start with one piece that seems fairly easy to deal with: the war against India.

I suggest we target 4 cities initially: Hun, Delhi, Bombay, and Vijay.

We have a ship with 2 cannons and a Cuir heading toward Hun now. We need to add a couple Cuirs to that force since cannons can't kill anything. We can either move units by land through Greece, or send the next shipload from the mainland that way.

For the other 3 cities, we should have 3 separate forces.

As soon as Charlemagne capitulates, we can move our 5 healthiest Cuirs to Cumae. Those five Cuirs can do a quick strike against Vijay on the first turn of the war. At last check, Vijay had 4 defenders.

We currently have 7 Cuirs in galleons heading toward Delhi. We can supplement that with 2 cannons from Nuremburg. We can move them thorugh India this turn and pick them up somewhere with the empty galleon that is currently near Tolosa. When we declare war, a force of 7 Cuirs and 2 cannons can land on the hill SW of Delhi. This will block Gandhi from immediately reinforcing Delhi from Pataliputra. We'll have at least 4 frigates bombing Delhi for 2 turns, and we can attack on the second turn of war.

Our remaining cannons and Cuirs can attack Bombay. After capitulation by Charlemagne, all units not needed for Vijay can proceed to Nuremburg to heal. Since there will be cannons in this force, this will be the slowest stack, and so healthy Cuirs can escort the cannons while wounded ones can heal for one more turn.

We can base 3 airships each in Pisa, Ravenna, and Cumae. On turn 1 of the war, airships from Ravenna and Cumae can hit Vijay. On turn 2, airships from Ravenna and Pisa can hit Delhi, while Cumae's airships rebase to Nuremburg. On turn 3, all 9 airships can hit Bombay.

I think we should try to get India's 2 island cities (for Blessed Seas) before or with capitulation. If India wont give us both for free, survivors from Vijay or Delhi can board a ship and take Calcutta.

Tolosa might need 1 extra Cuir to defend against a possible attack from Varanasi.

 

[ShannonCT]

As SCT pointed out, Gandhi has Open Borders with everyone. Counting 6-tiles from Delhi, we can see nearly all the tiles that have adequate roads on them. While we help Charles be our vassal next turn, we can watch for Gandhi's Great Prophet and can switch if need be. Not sure this warrants changing Gandhi first? It is four turns for a GP to reach Hun from Delhi and once in Greek territory, he has it made, in three turns...

Yes, if Gandhi were going to send the Prophet to Hun by land, we should see it near Pisa now. The only other thing I can think of is maybe he's going to load him on to a galley (soon to be galleon) near Varanasi. We have a frigate with movement points remaining that could go check it out. Otherwise, if we cant find the Prophet anywhere this turn or next, we should assume he's been settled or bulbed.

Augustus does not yet have Divine Right, so he can't build it. It is an 800 hammer wonder with double production speed with Marble. Divine Right is a one turn research, so we could build it in Guimaraes after Kremlin if needed?

If the Great Engineer is still unused next turn, it probably means that Augustus is saving it for Versailles. If that's the case, we might think about researching DR ourselves at some point during the war with India and gifting it to Augustus. We don't want to accept capitulation from Gandhi only to have Versailles built in one of his remaining cities a few turns later.

If we want to get Red Cross, then we'll need six Hospitals. For those, we must research Medicine. Seems like the logical place to head next given how far behind the other civs are. Now that we know how to use the Great People we want for Golden Ages, researching to Corporation can be delayed a bit because no hammers are involved in getting the corporations built, only a Great Person, much like shrines are built.

The big question about researching Medicine or not is whether we will get another GM from X-ville. If we don't get a GM from X-ville, researching Medicine doesn't make much sense. If we research toward Medicine now with the intention of building hospitals and RC, and then find out that we don't get a GM from X-ville, there will be no reason to research Refrigeration. Corporation would then be the last tech we need. But building 6 banks (whipped) and Wall Street (partially cash-rushed) takes at least 5 turns.

So one thing we could try to do is expedite the great person in X-ville. One easy step to take is to give X-ville the fish that Marbleville is using. With the fish, X-ville can hire a 4th merchant and lose only 1 food per turn, getting a GP in 14 turns. If we hired a 5th merchant there, GP comes in 12 turns.

Let's assume we can average an 80% research rate for the remainder of the game. X-ville will lose ~100 beakers per turn when towns are converted to workshops, but other cities coming out of revolt and expanding will add beakers. Let's assume we can average 1300 beakers per turn during the golden age (with the 20% prereq bonus included). If our next techs are Banking-Econ-Constitution-Corporation-Biology, we'll have ~10 turns before we have to decide between Medicine and Refrigeration. That's still 2-4 turns before we know what GP we get in X-ville. We could throw in Democracy (3-4 turns) to fill the gap, and find somewhere to start building Statue of Liberty. Or we could just save up some cash so that Biology finishes on the same turn we get X-ville's GP, and then use the extra cash for faster research and cash-rushing.

It's not clear to me what the best course is. We also have to keep in mind the timing of victory. For backdoor diplo, we want to finish the UN 7 turns before we want to trigger victory.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"We have a ship with 2 cannons and a Cuir heading toward Hun now. We need to add a couple Cuirs to that force since cannons can't kill anything. We can either move units by land through Greece, or send the next shipload from the mainland that way." Like sending units from mainland, as units already on the continent can better serve as almost always needed reinforcements and trouble shooters.

Yes, if Gandhi were going to send the Prophet to Hun by land, we should see it near Pisa now. The only other thing I can think of is maybe he's going to load him on to a galley (soon to be galleon) near Varanasi. We have a frigate with movement points remaining that could go check it out. Otherwise, if we cant find the Prophet anywhere this turn or next, we should assume he's been settled or bulbed. This assumes entirely logical behavior on the part of the AI; nevertheless, probably the best way to proceed.

If the Great Engineer is still unused next turn, it probably means that Augustus is saving it for Versailles. If that's the case, we might think about researching DR ourselves at some point during the war with India and gifting it to Augustus. We don't want to accept capitulation from Gandhi only to have Versailles built in one of his remaining cities a few turns later. If we follow this scenario, then we need to research DR early in the war, so we have enough time to build Versailles (if Caesar doesn't) before capit from India.

The big question about researching Medicine or not is whether we will get another GM from X-ville. If we don't get a GM from X-ville, researching Medicine doesn't make much sense. If we research toward Medicine now with the intention of building hospitals and RC, and then find out that we don't get a GM from X-ville, there will be no reason to research Refrigeration. How many turns will research toward Medicine take? If we don't go there, can we get victory in sufficiently fewer turns to compensate for the lack of that wonder? Corporation would then be the last tech we need. But building 6 banks (whipped) What about building some of those banks and instead whipping some units as soon as we get CR? and Wall Street (partially cash-rushed) takes at least 5 turns.

So one thing we could try to do is expedite the great person in X-ville. One easy step to take is to give X-ville the fish that Marbleville is using. With the fish, X-ville can hire a 4th merchant and lose only 1 food per turn, getting a GP in 14 turns. If we hired a 5th merchant there, GP comes in 12 turns.

Let's assume we can average an 80% research rate for the remainder of the game. X-ville will lose ~100 beakers per turn when towns are converted to workshops, but other cities coming out of revolt and expanding will add beakers. Let's assume we can average 1300 beakers per turn during the golden age (with the 20% prereq bonus included). If our next techs are Banking-Econ-Constitution-Corporation-Biology, we'll have ~10 turns before we have to decide between Medicine and Refrigeration. That's still 2-4 turns before we know what GP we get in X-ville. This uncertainty is undesirable. Wondering if we shouldn't concede the Medicine-based wonder and concentrate on a faster victory. We could throw in Democracy (3-4 turns) to fill the gap, and find somewhere to start building Statue of Liberty. Or we could just save up some cash so that Biology finishes on the same turn we get X-ville's GP, and then use the extra cash for faster research and cash-rushing.

It's not clear to me what the best course is. We also have to keep in mind the timing of victory. For backdoor diplo, we want to finish the UN 7 turns before we want to trigger victory.

Very tricky -- lot of unknowns still. Can we formulate a plan for the next 5 turns or so that keeps options open without creating any delay, and then re-visit?

How are we going to use espionage points against India?

 

[leif erikson]

The corporations that we can build under Medicine or Refrigeration each require a Great Merchant. I'm not sure it is either/or? It seems to me that we should research to Medicine which unlocks Red Cross and Sid's Sushi and, should another Great Merchant appear, we could then consider Refrigeration? Or am I missing something?

Got to run, much to think about and more later...

 

[ShannonCT]

The corporations that we can build under Medicine or Refrigeration each require a Great Merchant. I'm not sure it is either/or? It seems to me that we should research to Medicine which unlocks Red Cross and Sid's Sushi and, should another Great Merchant appear, we could then consider Refrigeration? Or am I missing something?

Got to run, much to think about and more later...

Maybe you're right. Medicine is only 747 more beakers than Refrigeration, which is 0-1 extra turn.

In my previous post, I was somehow thinking that banks required corporation. But of course they dont. If we can have all our banks done by the time we research corporation, we can get WS done in 2-3 turns probably. Researching Corp now would mean losing a trade route in all coastal cities. Maybe we should go Banking-DR-Econ-Biology-Medicine-Constitution-Corp and then decide on Refrig when we know what GP X-Ville gets.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Maybe we should go Banking-DR-Econ-Biology-Medicine-Constitution-Corp and then decide on Refrig when we know what GP X-Ville gets.

Roughly how many turns of research at 80% through Corp (and would this get us through X-ville's GP)? Is Corp or Refrdge (given a GM) definitely the last tech needed for wonders in our game plan?

 

[ShannonCT]

Roughly how many turns of research at 80% through Corp (and would this get us through X-ville's GP)? Is Corp or Refrdge (given a GM) definitely the last tech needed for wonders in our game plan?

That path looks like 15-16 turns of research. So yes, that would get us through X-Ville's GP.

The only other tech worth thinking about is Democracy. But I don't see a city where we can build the Statue of Liberty quickly, so it would have to be partially cash-rushed or whipped. I'll have to check the whipping cost for wonders.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"That path looks like 15-16 turns of research. So yes, that would get us through X-Ville's GP." Then, don't we want to consider whether victory with wonders completed is possible in 16-17 turns, or, if not, about how many more are likely to be needed?

 

[ShannonCT]

"That path looks like 15-16 turns of research. So yes, that would get us through X-Ville's GP." Then, don't we want to consider whether victory with wonders completed is possible in 16-17 turns, or, if not, about how many more are likely to be needed?

UN can be built in X-ville in 10-11 turns if we start next turn and convert the towns to workshops. So the victory vote would come up when we need it.

Right now, 385 votes are needed for Diplo victory (61% of world population). We and our vassals have 292 votes. Charlemagne has 34 and Gandhi has 82. Add those to our total and we're at 408. Then there's the three Roman cities we need to capture. We'll have plenty of votes for diplo victory even if we need to whip some buildings.

I don't see any problem getting the wonders built in time. Prereq buildings can be whipped and/or built in cities like Furville, Jute, Horse, and Ivory after units built there can no longer reach the front in time. Wall Street and Red Cross can be partially whipped or cash-rushed. For instance, whipping a resourceless wonder in X-ville or Ulundi (after Kremlin) is at the rate 1 pop = 55 hammers.

Blessed Sea needs to be completed. We can build settlers in cities like Pigville and Stoneville and settle the nearby islands. We need to leave 2-3 galleons near X-ville to move these settlers and then chain the Prophet to Hun.

The battle for India should be short. We know his defenses and he is prone to quick capitulation.

The only question in my mind is the Romans. I don't know how many of those obsolete hordes he'll throw at us. After one more shipload leaves from our east coast, I think all other units should be sent west and prepare to fill at least 3 galleons to be landed near Antium.

 

[leif erikson]

Blessed Sea needs to be completed. We can build settlers in cities like Pigville and Stoneville and settle the nearby islands. We need to leave 2-3 galleons near X-ville to move these settlers and then chain the Prophet to Hun.

Do we know what defenders are in these Barb Cities scattered about. We can see Yayoi, Mimoan and there is another south of Furville. Would it be worth grabbing them and building fewer Settlers? You mentioned earlier Gandhi's cities of Calcutta and Lahore. I think we only need to be careful of delay and Gandhi capitulating to Augustus.

The two islands North of X-ville can be settled easily.

The battle for India should be short. We know his defenses and he is prone to quick capitulation.

Gandhi has already settled Madras south of Bibracte! Sneaky little ...

As I said above, he is on very good terms with Augustus, Gandhi is Friendly towards him. If we aren't quite fast, I fear he'll vassalize to Rome.

The only question in my mind is the Romans. I don't know how many of those obsolete hordes he'll throw at us. After one more shipload leaves from our east coast, I think all other units should be sent west and prepare to fill at least 3 galleons to be landed near Antium.

I think the nice thing about the plan for Bombay, Delhi and Vijay is that it puts our strength where we will need it next, to get Cumae, Rome and Antium (although it would be faster to send a separate amphibious force to Antium I think. Would having two main axes help at all in confusing the AI or will it just pick one to send its strength against?

 

[leif erikson]

Double post...

 

[Cactus Pete]

"The battle for India should be short."

Then it may turn out that we actually delay taking a city in order to get Versailles built and perhaps some Indian island city(s) taken.

"UN can be built in X-ville in 10-11 turns if we start next turn and convert the towns to workshops. So the victory vote would come up when we need it."

Do we then have time for MS?

If we get a GM in X-ville, could we get a trade route in time to do any good with buying builds?

Whipping settlers seems likely.

 

[leif erikson]

I'll try to get some work done on a plan soon. Keep the input coming.

Hope we can work in Military Science, would help with Rome I think.

Might be out of touch for a few days depending upon what happens. We are facing a serious Nor'easter with 60 mph winds and a foot or more of snow this afternoon and tonight. Could be a late night....

Looks like it is already snowing on Shannon, hope it isn't too bad cause its coming here next!

 

[rrau]

Hope you don't become a snowman. Incase the electric goes out for a few days : . Too bad there's not a roaring fireplace smiley.

 

[leif erikson]

Hope you don't become a snowman. Incase the electric goes out for a few days : .

There is always the less than romantic generator to save the day!

Too bad there's not a roaring fireplace smiley.

And as long as there is power, there is always a roaring fire!!

Already snowing and blowing, and the ocean is getting wild. In less than an hour, the ground is covered and the trees are bending to the weight.

 

[Cactus Pete]

60mph . . . that'll wipe out a few power lines. FYI, almost balmy here.

Plan when you can, leif. Game's not going away, and we're all likely to be distracted right now. (I'll be out of touch tomorrow.) Enjoy the holidays.

 

[leif erikson]

60mph . . . that'll wipe out a few power lines. FYI, almost balmy here.

Plan when you can, leif. Game's not going away, and we're all likely to be distracted right now. (I'll be out of touch tomorrow.) Enjoy the holidays.

Same to you.

Enjoy the balmy conditions...