SGOTM 10 - Geezers

Sam_Yeager · Nov 8, 2009

Grifftavian said:
What's the plan for the Spies?

It's to make it harder for the AI to run espionage missions against us.

Grifftavian said:
All of our cities except Yakutsk have either +1 or +2 unhappiness from demanding Emancipation. St. Pete is already unhappy Should we consider whipping the Settler in St. Pete (when we can do it for 3 population) and building a Temple with the whip overflow to help the unhappiness factor?

Building a market would give us 2

. I'm not that keen on whipping SP but if we're going to do it then I suggest waiting until we only need 2 pop.

Grifftavian said:
Re: Library @ Yakutsk, only reason I can think of is to run Scientist Specialists before we switch to Caste System. And it would give us a few more since most of the population will be working water tiles.

If we want more :science:

then it's simpler to just run Research in Yakutsk which gives us an extra 5 :science:

immediately.

Grifftavian said:
Gandhi will throw in his world map and 110 if we offer Rifling. It's the best deal we could get right now, but I don't know if it is worth it.

Ghandhi will be our first major target. Why on earth should we help make his defences better?

Grifftavian said:
IMO, before we try and trade for Constitution, we should go to Churchill and demand that he give it to us. He's down to one city and fighting for his existence with De Gaulle, he might just give it up. Who cares if he gets mad at us, he's in no position to threaten us now, and most likely for as long as he's still in the game. Even if he DOWs us, we might be able to get Constitution with a Peace Treaty in 10 turns.

I like your thinking here.

This sounds an excellent idea. :evil:

markh said:
The settler is for the city on the barb island E of Novgorod. Let the barbs throw their units against it. Another city won't hurt and we will have a nice beachhead for conquering the barb island.

I thought the last time we discussed this subject the idea was to maybe capture a few cities as production cities but Ghandhi was to be the main target?

markh · Nov 8, 2009

I was not so sure about the promotions for the landed units. Maybe we can use those units on the offense later on, so I left them unpromoted. They should do well if the barsb do not appear in huge numbers.

Gandhi will remain target numero uno, but it will not hurt to get a city on the barb island. Any beachhead we can get without nuking is grand.

Grifftavian · Nov 8, 2009

Sam_Yeager said:
It's to make it harder for the AI to run espionage missions against us.

Yes, of course. I'm not opposed to building spies, I was just curious how you thought we should use them. For example...

fortify them in our cities
sneak them into a foreign (Gandhi?) city and run counter espionage mission
fortify one on top of Uranium Mine to help prevent sabotage

We're not generating that many Espionage Points at the moment (14, IIRC). Should we start running some spy specialists in our Wealth building cities?

Also, IIRC, we're not building any Espionage Points against Gandhi at the moment. If he's the first military target, should we change our Espionage Point allocations?

Harbourboy · Nov 8, 2009

I'm ambivalent between settling or not settling on barb island. My only request is that we play a bit more quickly. It's hard to get momentum when we keep stopping, especially when we know the warfare part of the game is going to take ages.

Sam_Yeager · Nov 8, 2009

Grifftavian said:
I'm not opposed to building spies, I was just curious how you thought we should use them. For example...

fortify them in our cities

sneak them into a foreign (Gandhi?) city and run counter espionage mission

fortify one on top of Uranium Mine to help prevent sabotage

We're not generating that many Espionage Points at the moment (14, IIRC). Should we start running some spy specialists in our Wealth building cities?

I was intending to keep the spies in SP & Moscow. Chceking the cities I see that the spy specialist we wre running in Yekaterinburg is now a science specialist. I propose to change it back to a spy specialist.

Grifftavian said:
Also, IIRC, we're not building any Espionage Points against Gandhi at the moment. If he's the first military target, should we change our Espionage Point allocations?

Good point, I'll spread the EPs between De Gaulle, Ghandhi & Mao.

Harbourboy said:
My only request is that we play a bit more quickly. It's hard to get momentum when we keep stopping, especially when we know the warfare part of the game is going to take ages.

I was intending to play on Tuesday evening as I get back later on Monday evenings but I can play Monday evening if I get agreement on the plan. I believe the turnset plans and the discussion they generate are well worth it. However I agree that there have been times when the thread has gone to sleep. I notice AlanH posted a message reminding all the teams that the deadline is December 7th. That's just over 4 weeks away. :eek:

Sam_Yeager · Nov 8, 2009

Research
Finish Electricity and then start Steel. We can afford to drop our science rate without slowing down Electricity so I'll do that.

Builds
Moscow - Finish rifle and then start spy followed by another rifle.
SP - Finish settler (whip at 2 pop?) & then start spy followed by rifle.
Yakutsk - Stop building library and run wealth instead.
Yekaterinburg - Change one of the science specialists to a spy specialist.

Trades
Demand Constitution from Churchill. If he doesn't agree then wait for De Gaulle to get it.

Military
Send our troops roaming the barb lands to get experience, pillage, capture workers and scout. Send 2nd contingent of rifles and settler over at a later date. I may well leave it up to the next player to settle the city.

Espionage
Split EPs between De Gaulle, Ghandi & Mao.

Turnset Length
I'll play up to at least turn 460 to even up the date. If nothing major is happening I may play until we have Steel.

Grifftavian · Nov 8, 2009

Sounds good, Sam. Go for it!

Harbourboy · Nov 9, 2009

Go for it Sam.

markh · Nov 9, 2009

I would suggest to promote one of the units over at the barb island to a medic as soon as available, otherwise healing takes too long. I would keep the two landed units where they are now. Once we have 4 or 5 units I would start sending them towards barb cities. The two units will be overrun quickly. This is emperor. The barbs will have a good number of units now. Maybe we even have to evacuate our units if they send too many units. You can bet that the barb imperator already started to send some units towards our beach babies, but I placed our caravel near the landway the barbs have to go, so we should see what is coming our way.

Sam_Yeager · Nov 9, 2009

markh said:
I would suggest to promote one of the units over at the barb island to a medic as soon as available, otherwise healing takes too long.

Sounds sensible.

markh said:
I would keep the two landed units where they are now. Once we have 4 or 5 units I would start sending them towards barb cities. The two units will be overrun quickly. This is emperor. The barbs will have a good number of units now.

You make some good points. Perhaps I was being a bit too gung ho. I'll keep our units stationary, at least until I see how things look.

Sam_Yeager · Nov 9, 2009

1857 AD - 1875 AD

Summary

We now have Electricity & Steel and Artillery is currently being researched. A GS has just been born in Moscow. The barb's strength may been over estimated. Parthian has had 2 LBs and a spear all through the turnset. I've landed an additional two rifles, settler and two workers over on barb island but I've not founded a city. Churchill is no more thanks to De Gaulle. Mao is steadily capturing Roosevelt's cities and is the largest civ according to Livy.

Turn 170 - 1857 AD
Reduce science rate to 50%. Split EPs between De Gaulle, Ghandhi & Mao. Change a science specialist in Yekaterinburg to a spy specialist. Run wealth in Yakutsk. MM Rostov & Novgorod for :gold:

. Demand Constitution from Churchill who replies 'Never'.

Turn 171 - 1858 AD
Buddhism spreads in Yekaterinburg. Whip settler in SP for 2 pop. Add medic promotion to musket on barb island. De Gaulle demands we cancel deals with Churhill. Just who do you think you are?

Turn 172 - 1859 AD
SP Setter -> Spy.

Turn 173 - 1860 AD
Moscow Rifle -> Spy. Sink barb galley near Yakutsk. Notice Ghandhi now has Communism.

Turn 174 - 1861 AD
Mao is the largest civ according to Livy. We are puny.

Electricity -> Steel. SP Spy -> Rifle. Increase science rate to 70%.

Spoiler :

Turn 175 - 1862 AD
Moscw Spy - Rifle.

Turn 176 - 1863 AD
Twiddle thumbs.

Turn 177 - 1864 AD
Nothing much.

Turn 178 - 1865 AD
Decide to move barb island troops westwards and bump off that annoying warrior on the way.

Turn 179 - 1866 AD
Check cities and game screens yet again.

Turn 180 - 1867 AD
Moscow Rifle -> Rifle.

Turn 181 - 1868 AD
Embark 2 rifles and settler in galleon and send over to barb island.

Turn 182 - 1869 AD
Roosevelt loses another city and asks for help - No. Sp Rifle -> Rifle. Offload rifles and settler on barb island.

Turn 183 - 1870 AD
Press enter.

Turn 184 - 1871 AD
De Gaulle destroys Churchill. Hope he doesn't get ideas about us. :scared:

Turn 185 - 1872 AD
Roosevelt demands we cancel deals with Mao - Mao's waay bigger than us bud! Steel -> Artillery.

Turn 186 - 1873 AD
Moscow's water supply is poisoned despite the spy. :mad:

Turn 187 - 1874 AD
Still seething about the attack on Moscow.

IBT: Roosevelt offers Constitution + 60 :gold:

for Steel - No!

Turn 188 - 1875 AD
Rosalind Franklin (GS) is born in Moscow.Time to hand over the save.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm10/Geezers_SG010_AD1875_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Spoiler Turnset Log :

Spoiler Game Log :

Grifftavian · Nov 9, 2009

1875 AD save downloaded.

Research Plan updated per 1875 AD save.

Turn Set Plan 1875 AD - 1895 AD Version 1.1

Play 20 turns & post update after 10 turns

Research
Great Scientist bulbs part of Fission
Switch to Fission and complete it!
Reduce Science Slider % as required to maintain Treasury

Moscow

Build Broadway World Wonder
Build Ironworks National Wonder
Build Statue of Liberty if we can trade for Democracy

Please state your preference!

St. Pete
continue building Riflemen

Novgorod
switch from building Wealth to Riflemen to compensate for not building units in Moscow

Rostov, Yekaterinburg & Yakutsk
continue building Wealth

Yaroslavl'

Start building Naval Units
Continue building Wealth

Please state your preference!

Establish City 8 Beachhead on Barb Island
Next to Sheep Resource
Initial builds: Culture or Theater to pop borders; Walls; Barracks.
Workers build Pasture for Sheep & Lumbermill for production.

Tech Trade(s)
Rifling to Roosevelt for Constitution, World Map & 60 :gold:

[*]YES
[*]NO

If YES, switch to Representation/Caste System Civics & look to trade for Democracy

Resource Trades
Look for Health & Happiness resource trades with Mao & De Gaulle

Grifftavian · Nov 9, 2009

And here is an idea from out of left field I'll throw out for team discussion.

Looks like on a small map, we only need to build 2 Temples in order to build a cathedral-type building.

Crazy Idea #1 :crazyeye:

Build Islamic Temples in Moscow & St. Pete
Build Islamic Mosque in St. Pete
Run 3 Priest specialists in St. Pete, trying to get a Great Prophet in order to build the Islamic Holy Shrine in St. Pete, to help spread our religion and supplement our treasury.

Crazy Idea #2 :crazyeye:

Build Buddhist Temples in Novgorod & Rostov
Build Buddhist Stupa in Novgorod in hopes of expanding it borders and reclaiming the Horse Resource.

Are either or both of these ideas to far off our intended path to consider?

Sam_Yeager · Nov 10, 2009

We will need to reduce our science rate to 60% otherwise switching Novgorod to production will virtually double our deficit to 28 :gold:

per turn. Adding city 8 will also increase our deficit.

I would favour building IronWorks in Moscow. I don't believe we can afford Yaro to switch from wealth at present. What advantage is there to settling city 8 by the uranium?

EDIT: Playing 20 turns with an update after 10 turns sounds good to me.

Grifftavian · Nov 10, 2009

Sam_Yeager said:
...What advantage is there to settling city 8 by the uranium?...

Getting a 2nd Uranium resource for our Empire; denying that Uranium resource to the other not-empires; better city defensive position on hilltop; a few more :hammers:

for city production.

Sam_Yeager · Nov 10, 2009

Grifftavian said:
On Plains Hill next to Uranium

I've had a chance to check the save. Correct me if I'm wrong but we can't found cities in another civ's cultural borders (or territory as the civilopedia terms it) which is where your proposed site is located.

Grifftavian · Nov 10, 2009

Sam_Yeager said:
I've had a chance to check the save. Correct me if I'm wrong but we can't found cities in another civ's cultural borders (or territory as the civilopedia terms it) which is where your proposed site is located.

Well, I thought we could if we were at war (and technically we're always at with the barbarians), but apparently you are correct. Thanks for point this out (oops, learned something again :blush:

)

So, city #8 next to the Sheep. I'll update my draft turn set plan.

Harbourboy · Nov 10, 2009

What strategic use are Statue of Liberty or Broadway to us at the moment? Aren't we planning to just capture them in the near future anyway?

Grifftavian · Nov 10, 2009

Harbourboy said:
What strategic use are Statue of Liberty or Broadway to us at the moment?

Statue of Liberty would give us a free specialist in every city on the continent, including those we capture from Gandhi. The free specialists would be most beneficial after we switch to Representation Civic. Broadway would give us a resource we could trade, a happiness boost in our cities, and a bunch of culture to help Moscow combat Bombay's cultural borders.

Harbourboy said:
Aren't we planning to just capture them in the near future anyway?

Yes, if they're not destroyed when we :nuke:

the city prior to capturing it. :nuke:

bombs will destroy buildings in the target city, I don't think Wonder are exempt.

Sam_Yeager · Nov 10, 2009

I've updated my turnset log for those that are interested.

@Griff - I don't like your proposed trade of Rifles to Roosevelt. Partly because the deal is too lopsided IMO and partly because he may well trade/barter it to other civs. If we really want/need it I suggest we self research it instead.

I suggest switching to Fission before bulbing the GS. It's always nice to know, and report, how many turns the GS saved us.

Re. first build for city 8 - IIRC you need the theatre before you can run culture.

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