Abegweit
Anarchist trader
markh said:I want to play, too.
Oops.
How could I have forgotten you?Abegweit
Redbad
Juballs
Andronicus
mark
paul
SGOTM 10 - Team Liz
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Oops.
How could I have forgotten you?Abegweit
Redbad
Juballs
Andronicus
mark
paul
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
OK. Turns done. Unsurprisingly little happened.
Highlights, such as they were:
In 3400BC, our borders expanded revealing an Incan scout and what we would know of the world for the rest of my turns. I traded Alphabet for WC+ 35g. They also knew Masonry and CB. The money is interesting as it means that they managed to take out a barb camp. This is good news, although Klarius’ comment in the maintenance thread is not…
The following year, The Barbarian Nation completed something called “Technology Thieves”. This turns out to be a Great Library with a cost of 20g! IMO, this is quite clever of Gyathaar. It allows the barbs to keep up in tech until Education. Since they know everyone, they will be among the leaders till then. The regular GL is still in the Civlopedia so I assume it can still be built. I checked through the Civlopedia. TT appears to be the only wild card. Everything else is normal.
The spot north of A looks even better than it did at the beginning as it has access to a sheep. York will need a granary too. Use CAII to decide how many uncorrupted shields it will have. From that you can decide the build order. My guess is that numbers four and ten will get the boot. Assuming this is true, 19x3 = 51 so it won't get the granary up before the city gets to size three. A warrior or three first would thus be a good idea. We need MPs and explorers anyways.
Our third city should probably go where the scout is, although we will have a bit of exploration under our belts before we make that decision. It will probably corrupt shield three so it should build warrior-worker. It's a good candidate for a granary too especially because there's lots of chop-chop in the neighbourhood.
While I have committed us to the early granary route, any sequence based on it is still open since they are all identical to this point. As I said earlier, I am strongly in favour of the Farmer's Gambit. The fact that York gets access to a sheep makes this choice even better. It doesn't need to be said but I'll do it anyway; worker 1 will of course head straight to that tile at turn 32.
Edit: note to next player- London needs mm to follow the script.
Highlights, such as they were:
In 3400BC, our borders expanded revealing an Incan scout and what we would know of the world for the rest of my turns. I traded Alphabet for WC+ 35g. They also knew Masonry and CB. The money is interesting as it means that they managed to take out a barb camp. This is good news, although Klarius’ comment in the maintenance thread is not…
The following year, The Barbarian Nation completed something called “Technology Thieves”. This turns out to be a Great Library with a cost of 20g! IMO, this is quite clever of Gyathaar. It allows the barbs to keep up in tech until Education. Since they know everyone, they will be among the leaders till then. The regular GL is still in the Civlopedia so I assume it can still be built. I checked through the Civlopedia. TT appears to be the only wild card. Everything else is normal.
The spot north of A looks even better than it did at the beginning as it has access to a sheep. York will need a granary too. Use CAII to decide how many uncorrupted shields it will have. From that you can decide the build order. My guess is that numbers four and ten will get the boot. Assuming this is true, 19x3 = 51 so it won't get the granary up before the city gets to size three. A warrior or three first would thus be a good idea. We need MPs and explorers anyways.
Our third city should probably go where the scout is, although we will have a bit of exploration under our belts before we make that decision. It will probably corrupt shield three so it should build warrior-worker. It's a good candidate for a granary too especially because there's lots of chop-chop in the neighbourhood.
While I have committed us to the early granary route, any sequence based on it is still open since they are all identical to this point. As I said earlier, I am strongly in favour of the Farmer's Gambit. The fact that York gets access to a sheep makes this choice even better. It doesn't need to be said but I'll do it anyway; worker 1 will of course head straight to that tile at turn 32.
Edit: note to next player- London needs mm to follow the script.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
I just checked the stats for the Barbarian Guard. 
My interpretation of this is, contra Klarius, that it is a normal unit available from the beginning of the game. However it requires saltpeter and iron which means that it effectively becomes available with Gunpowder. A beeline to Education is obviously a good idea. The earlier we kill that Technology Thief, the better.
Unfortunately, we are likely to run across hoards of these things anyways. How do you stop them before tanks?
My interpretation of this is, contra Klarius, that it is a normal unit available from the beginning of the game. However it requires saltpeter and iron which means that it effectively becomes available with Gunpowder. A beeline to Education is obviously a good idea. The earlier we kill that Technology Thief, the better.
Unfortunately, we are likely to run across hoards of these things anyways. How do you stop them before tanks?
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Still more spam. 
Assuming that I am right about the corruption, York should start its granary at the seventeenth turn after its founding.
Advanced math:
4x9 + 8x3 = 60. 39-12= 17.
Until then it should build nothing but warriors and curraghs.
More advanced math: 1 curragh + 3 warriors = 17 turns.
Assuming that I am right about the corruption, York should start its granary at the seventeenth turn after its founding.
Advanced math:
4x9 + 8x3 = 60. 39-12= 17. Until then it should build nothing but warriors and curraghs.
More advanced math: 1 curragh + 3 warriors = 17 turns.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
@markh. Range:3 Rate of fire:3 
This thing is evil. How can you even get near it? It would redline any cav that came within striking range. And I bet the barb capital is sitting right next to both iron and salt.
There are only two approaches I can see:
a) somehow get to Astronomy and Chivalry before the Barbs get to Gunpowder
b) wait until the late IA gives us infantry, tanks, artillery and bombers.
Edit: Some more advanced math about attempting an attack in the late ME.
According to Offa's attack calculator, four vet cavs would have a 60% chance of taking out a town with two of these babies inside. However, there will be 2 bombardment stages before you get there. The first can be absorbed by a couple of additional units (cavs, pikes or muskets). The next would have to be taken by the attackers themselves. The first two attackers would be slaughtered almost 100% of the time and the calc says there will be 1.13 more deaths. So, to sum up. Eight units go in. Three will die and almost all the rest will be redlined. Meanwhile, the boys from the next town will be on the move to make sure the survivors stay that way.
All this assumes only two defenders, that they are regulars, that the town is on grass and that there are no promotions from the first two deaths. And the barbs, of course, are militaristic.
Rate of fire:3 This thing is evil. How can you even get near it? It would redline any cav that came within striking range. And I bet the barb capital is sitting right next to both iron and salt.
There are only two approaches I can see:
a) somehow get to Astronomy and Chivalry before the Barbs get to Gunpowder
b) wait until the late IA gives us infantry, tanks, artillery and bombers.
Edit: Some more advanced math about attempting an attack in the late ME.
According to Offa's attack calculator, four vet cavs would have a 60% chance of taking out a town with two of these babies inside. However, there will be 2 bombardment stages before you get there. The first can be absorbed by a couple of additional units (cavs, pikes or muskets). The next would have to be taken by the attackers themselves. The first two attackers would be slaughtered almost 100% of the time and the calc says there will be 1.13 more deaths. So, to sum up. Eight units go in. Three will die and almost all the rest will be redlined. Meanwhile, the boys from the next town will be on the move to make sure the survivors stay that way.
All this assumes only two defenders, that they are regulars, that the town is on grass and that there are no promotions from the first two deaths. And the barbs, of course, are militaristic.
Who thought it would be easy to take some barbies in the Gyathaar version out ? I think by that time we may have some armies and things might not look that scary. I just saw in the maintenance thread that Ken cannot build these units if I understood it correctly.
I think by that time we may have some armies and things might not look that scary. I just saw in the maintenance thread that Ken cannot build these units if I understood it correctly.
Redbad
should have shaved
got the 3000BC save
Andronicus
Emperor
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Hi guys - nice going so far
Man those barb guards are truly scarey.
Acccording to Gyathaar
Man those barb guards are truly scarey.
Acccording to Gyathaar
P'raps "other means" is every time one is attacked it spawns in 2Gyathaar said:
If we had built London at pos A where it could access the coast tiles it would not have used them until we had finished with the settler factory. By building towns 1 N of A and 1 W of SW oyster we can utilise those tiles to full extent as well as making good use of extra commerce from sea-faring trait.Paul#42 said:
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Note Gyathaar's comment in the maintenance thread: "Barbarians cannot build them like normal units.. they receive a limited number of them by other means". I interpret this to mean that Technology Thieves gives one every five turns or so, just like the Knights Templar or SoZ. Is anyone good enough with the editor to know what other means are possible? The barbs do have their own government. According to the Civlopedia, it is the same as despotism. According to Gyathaar, nothing in the Civlopedia can be trusted.
How far away are cavs and caravels/galleons? Last game we reached that point in 440AD. About two hundred turns at which time they will have about 40 of them? The AI likes to keep units in the city they are built in so I think many, perhaps most, will be in the capital. However, ifwe attack other cities, they'll move them to the front.
This does bring to mind another strategy. The barb capital should be on the coast as they are seafaring. So... a truly massive MoW attack might bring it down.
I'm not fully sure how this works. As I understand it, bombardment is like any other attack. A unit with a attack of 4 and rate of fire of 2 should inflict one point of damage on an 8 def unit about 15-20% of the time. This implies that it would take about 70 MoWs to kill 10 guardss. Lesser towns would fall to about 20 or so.
And I'm sure I'm on the right track because I just found another change to the Civlopedia: the MoW in this game has a movement rate of 10.
We are playing the English for a reason.
We need powerful coastal cities or a huge economy. Beeline to Navigation and pump the UU out to no end.
How far away are cavs and caravels/galleons? Last game we reached that point in 440AD. About two hundred turns at which time they will have about 40 of them? The AI likes to keep units in the city they are built in so I think many, perhaps most, will be in the capital. However, ifwe attack other cities, they'll move them to the front.
This does bring to mind another strategy. The barb capital should be on the coast as they are seafaring. So... a truly massive MoW attack might bring it down.
I'm not fully sure how this works. As I understand it, bombardment is like any other attack. A unit with a attack of 4 and rate of fire of 2 should inflict one point of damage on an 8 def unit about 15-20% of the time. This implies that it would take about 70 MoWs to kill 10 guardss. Lesser towns would fall to about 20 or so.
And I'm sure I'm on the right track because I just found another change to the Civlopedia: the MoW in this game has a movement rate of 10.
We are playing the English for a reason.We need powerful coastal cities or a huge economy. Beeline to Navigation and pump the UU out to no end.
Andronicus
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Had a look at the save and opened up civilopaedia ... I found this
Andronicus
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Note above - transport capacity 1
Might we have a trickle of barbarian guards onto our continent at some stage
Regarding tactic of expiring their Technology Thieves with Education
note it does NOT say this expires with education
Might we have a trickle of barbarian guards onto our continent at some stage
Regarding tactic of expiring their Technology Thieves with Education
note it does NOT say this expires with education
Andronicus
Emperor
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Abegweit said:
I think you might just be right
Andronicus said:
You are right. I just wanted to win some time trying to keep your pace, guys...
As I will not be able to open the save before tomorrow evening, skip me if necessary
I hope I will be able to play a set before the slingshot
Now you get an idea why my team Jeffelammar is still playing SGotm 9
Andronicus
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OK I'll spam you with 1 more extract from the save (its way past my bed-time)
? start with 2 settlers
? start with 2 settlers
Andronicus
Emperor
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Paul#42 said:You are right. I just wanted to win some time trying to keep your pace, guys...
As I will not be able to open the save before tomorrow evening, skip me if necessary
I hope I will be able to play a set before the slingshot
Now you get an idea why my team Jeffelammar is still playing SGotm 9
good to see the right attitude
seriously though - I do think its important we dont rush turns, I have no problem with anyone wanting to stop and post during their set so team can discuss even if this does extend the turn a day or 2 longer. The first few turnsets for everyone in particular have a huge bearing on the outcome of the competition (unless of course its SGOTM9
)
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Good find about the pirate ship. There is no reason to be scared of them though. Quite the contrary. This game will be all about seapower and we are going to dominate the seas 
We'll need to build a few of them as soon as we get to astronomy, rush over and take control of the waters around the barb continent. Once the MoW factories are up and running, their limited transport capacity will be useful for moving units over to take towns which the UU has emptied.
We'll need to build a few of them as soon as we get to astronomy, rush over and take control of the waters around the barb continent. Once the MoW factories are up and running, their limited transport capacity will be useful for moving units over to take towns which the UU has emptied.
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
Good catch but unfortunately I don't think that's the whole answer. There's something even nastier. Look at another extract from the save.Andronicus said:
Size 6
This has to be the hidden benefit of barbarism. They are growing like weeds.
The attachments show what I mean.
Attachments
Abegweit
Anarchist trader
WRT your turnset, there are three significant things.Redbad said:
a) London needs mm
b) Are we agreed on the location of York.
b) What about its build order? Incidently, my calculations above are nonsense
because it will soon have an additional food.
Redbad
should have shaved
I want to inform you of my plans before I start my turnset. So if there are objections I'm still some 16 hours from starting.
My axe is itching from all those lovely trees. So worker1 (that's the worker on the deer) will move south after roading the deer. The forest there will be chopped and then the worker moves to the forest east of the sheep. This forest will be chopped and then irrigated.
Worker2 (on the wheat) goes according to original plan.
Londons production will get some adjustments also, but not until after the first settler is built. After the first settler we'll start on a second second settler. After the second settler we'll build 2 warriors. It will all be finished in 2390BC at which date the SF is in working order. This is btw the same date as in the original plan.
For those who love the gory details:
Advantages of the new plan are:
second settler 3 turns earlier
a second warrior (so more MPing)
irrigation towards the west sheep
no operating London at size 5 with only 1 warrior MPing
Disadvantages:
first warior 3 turns later
lost commerce as irrigated plain is not on the river
no irrigation towards north sheep
Further plans (as I can see them now)
Found York 2 tiles north of London, building orders: curragh, warrior
Found Nottingham 2 tiles east (next to bg and floodplain), building order: warrior
My axe is itching from all those lovely trees. So worker1 (that's the worker on the deer) will move south after roading the deer. The forest there will be chopped and then the worker moves to the forest east of the sheep. This forest will be chopped and then irrigated.
Worker2 (on the wheat) goes according to original plan.
Londons production will get some adjustments also, but not until after the first settler is built. After the first settler we'll start on a second second settler. After the second settler we'll build 2 warriors. It will all be finished in 2390BC at which date the SF is in working order. This is btw the same date as in the original plan.
For those who love the gory details:
Advantages of the new plan are:
second settler 3 turns earlier
a second warrior (so more MPing)
irrigation towards the west sheep
no operating London at size 5 with only 1 warrior MPing
Disadvantages:
first warior 3 turns later
lost commerce as irrigated plain is not on the river
no irrigation towards north sheep
Further plans (as I can see them now)
Found York 2 tiles north of London, building orders: curragh, warrior
Found Nottingham 2 tiles east (next to bg and floodplain), building order: warrior
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