SGOTM 10 - Team Liz

[Redbad]

One thing I have to get of my chest.

I started this SGOTM to experience some teamplay, learn new strategies and tips&tricks, try to find solutions to problems, try to outsmart other teams and have fun in general.

This game as it has been played up until now, makes a very scientific, disciplined and MMed impression on me. I didn't mind that in the beginning when having a few cities and a couple of units. I found it to be a challenge to press every little drop of effiency out of our 1 city, 2 workers and 1 warrior.
Now we have 27 cities, 40 workers and 30 military. I don't longer find it to be fun to optimise every move of every unit, and work through a detailed script for everyone's destination.

I think it's getting time that the team limits itself to strategies and intermediate goals and lets the details to the person doing the turns. So for example the team decides on which research direction, which civ's to attack or not to attack, which wonders are of interest. And the person doing his turnset decides what improvement/units are being build where, what and how many workers do what jobs, were the next cities will be found, how to deploy the military.

I'm past discussing now where the next city should be build. It was of importance at the start, it isn't any longer. And I'm past having to look in a script where to sent the next settler. I have no trouble seeing people doing things I would have done differently. And, although I think it hasn't really happened up until now, I have no problems having people change MM done by me and I won't hesitate next time to change MM done by my predecessor if I think it's wise to do. We're not ruling beyond our turnset.

I's quite possible that this will decrease our chances of winning. It will increase the fun, at least for me. As can be read in my second sentence: having fun is a goal for me and winning the laurels is not (it would be nice though ) So I guess every teammember has to decide for himself how he wants to play this game, I've stated how I will do it.

 

[Andronicus]

I've done a trial of getting medieval free techs from scientific civs Sumeria & Byz ), then destoying them in the same turn after previously gifting the GLib to another civ (Egypt). Egypt got none of the AA techs I gave the other 2 civs nor the medieval techs I traded with them before destroying them
The screen shot shows diplomacy with Egypt the following turn.

The save for anyomne who would like to check for themselves is the turn on which I traded and attacked.

 

[Andronicus]

@ Redbad

The points you make are very relevant ones
We are doing this SG to have fun and it is a competition where we aim to do as well as we can
You are correct stating that there comes a point where nit picking over minor details of a person's play is unnecessary and decreases the enjoyment factor.

Early in the game city placements, operating the settler factory and optimising worker moves were critical to us getting into the strong position we find ourselves. Now the outcome (IMO) will be influenced more by efficient warring, optimising city production and commerce, effective science farms and most importantly picking the best strategy to take down the barbies quickly

For myself, I like the challenge of squeezing every coin I can and dont mind it being pointed out where I have been wasteful or could improve, but not every player will have the same wishes as you point out.

There is no disputing the high quality of your play so far in this SG. In addition you have provided much thoughtful comment and your comments above are well put. I hope we can all find plenty of enjoyment and challenge in the rest of the game

 

[markh]

I enjoy this game , although I did not contribute much here. The main discussion between you guys is during my working time, so I do not have much time to think about the game. In the evening I do not have anything to add as you already calculated everything. No big deal for me. I am looking forward to finding barbie land and see how we can deal with it.

 

[Paul#42]

@ Redbad
...
I hope we can all find plenty of enjoyment and challenge in the rest of the game

nothing to add here.

@markh, juballs: Pace and intensity of discussion in this thread is quite high, in the beginning I was losing track, too.
However I found a way to follow but I would not mind if you guys pull some brakes every now and then if you feel overwhelmed.

But I must admit that the good and quick work of Abegweit, Andronicus and Redbad rarely leaves room for sophisticated remarks...

 

[markh]

@markh, juballs: Pace and intensity of discussion in this thread is quite high, in the beginning I was losing track, too.
However I found a way to follow but I would not mind if you guys pull some brakes every now and then if you feel overwhelmed.

Actually the pace is insane. We have 404 replies already whereas we had 516 at the end of SGOTM9. Following it is not a big problem. The main problem is that I am at work during this time. Andronicus already has a bottle of red or is when I am still sitting at my desk at work. . No chance for me to think of this game.

It is not a complaint.

I even do not know whether I would have had anything useful to contribute during "live" discussion. I think I have not participated in a SG that was pushed so fast. I can just say awesome work from all of you.

 

[Andronicus]

Well I got home after work today, cooked tea for my sons then sat down to plow through all the posts since last time I played - its taken me over 2 hours

Even found a post by Abegweit I never recalled reading - sorry

Anyway there are a few I wish to comment on

Realistically, what can we get from the AI? Their ME free techs certainly. I'm hoping for currency too. After that? Invention, Gunpowder seem to be all that is reasonable beyond that. WRT IA techs, we need to know the exact mechanism by which the GL works before we try any stunts at that level.

My trial above shows we can get IA techs from Sumeria and Byz then kill them in same turn without Barbies learning gifted nor traded techs

War plans for Juballs:

1. Revolt ASAP.
2. Finish off Maya. At minimum, Palenque has to go. The two cities down on the peninsula are a judgement call...
3. I agree with the idea of attacking Bill first. Since we are heading into Anarchy, Sumeria would be too soon. Besides they are still useful trading partners. I think we should let Bill keep the three cities in the southeast for leader-farming, taking Utrecht, Tikal and whatever the city in the fog is (Groningen?). Thoughts on this?

Settlers:
1. the one in the north-east under the archer goes 1 se as agreed.
2. the one in the south-east to the mountain s-s-se of Cambridge?

Edit: there'll be one more settler before the revolt. I suggest the mountain 2W of Copan.

I agree with these war plans
Agree with settlers 1. and edit, but could consider sending 2. a little further south to the river - I have no problem with player at time (it could be me ) making final decision, although Teodora might beat us there

I really wish someone would confirm my findings because several of them really run against my intuition.

I ran your test and had similar results
I note you had BGs in size 1 town with no walls (I tried building walls there but AI kept changing the build )
If BGs vets behind size 7+ town may be tougher
BGs did not bombard offensively - neither MoWs nor cav Army, nor cav. This is also against my experience in a recent SG where our dromons were bombarded by cats and trebs when passing towns containing these
Cav armies carved through BGs and reg cavs had an even chance (which they shouldnt even with retreat ability)

My conclusion is we go with a force of cavs and hopefully cav armies prior to reseaching astronomy -> magnetism

We don't really need the MoW to get us in a GA. As getting Leonardo's is useful anyway for upgrading our horsemen to cavalry, we only need to capture Constantinople (Colossus) before finishing Leo's.

I like it
I would add we leave Theodora 1 city after taking Constantinople so we have option of getting her free IA tech if we find we require IA research

edit
@ markh the is cold mate, just cracked open another

 

[Paul#42]

Even found a post by Abegweit I never recalled reading - sorry

Whoever posts so much cannot expect that everything is being read (thoroughly)...

I like it
I would add we leave Izzie 1 city after taking Constantinople so we have option of getting her free IA tech if we find we require IA research

I like it, too. We should use our GA best way before Magnetism.
Izzie is Theodora, right? Where's that nickname from?

edit
@ markh the is cold mate, just cracked open another

 

[Paul#42]

When do we need the Leo prebuild (400s) ready?

1. Republic 5 turns
2. Currency (5 turns) (maybe 0 if traded)
3. Engineering (8 turns) (maybe 0 if traded)
4. Feudalism (8 turns) (maybe 0 if traded)
5. Invention (8 turns)

all numbers roughly guessed...

So in my estimation we have between 13 extremely optimistic and 34 turns for the prebuild. I think 25 turns is realistic, so we could use a 16 spt town right now.
Anarchy doesn't influence as it stalls both production and research.

Maybe someone could do some more skilled computation with knowledge of tech costs and considering our production and research...

 

[markh]

edit
@ markh the is cold mate, just cracked open another

Actually what makes it worse is that we have a very nice pub right over the street of our office with a nice terrace where you can get very nice draft beer . This is not fair pal. Cheers.

 

[Andronicus]

Izzie is Theodora, right? Where's that nickname from?

My bad I'm confusing her with Isabella of Spain

edit - I editted prev post to Theodora

 

[Abegweit]

When do we need the Leo prebuild (400s) ready?

When we get MilTrad and Astronomy. I don't think we want our GA before that and have no reason for the wonder before that either. Now if we could get the AI to build it... . We also need a pre-build for the Academy, assuming we get a leader.

 

[Abegweit]

My trial above shows we can get IA techs from Sumeria and Byz then kill them in same turn without Barbies learning gifted nor traded techs

Thanks for testing it.

I ran your test and had similar results
I note you had BGs in size 1 town with no walls (I tried building walls there but AI kept changing the build )
If BGs vets behind size 7+ town may be tougher
BGs did not bombard offensively - neither MoWs nor cav Army, nor cav. This is also against my experience in a recent SG where our dromons were bombarded by cats and trebs when passing towns containing these
Cav armies carved through BGs and reg cavs had an even chance (which they shouldnt even with retreat ability)

So you had similar results. They still bother me. The most important one is, I think, that BGs don't move. This concords with my experience of the AI use of arty and means that our initial invasion can be made with a classical force.

My conclusion is we go with a force of cavs and hopefully cav armies prior to reseaching astronomy -> magnetism

Agreed. I expect that Barbarian Stronghold is built on a hill and most of the BGs will be vets. It will be a slog to take down the city. It should be pillaged, or preferably bombed, down to size.

 

[juballs2001]

letting you guys know... there is a massive storm where i live and will be shutting down my computer... probably wont play tonight... will play and post by tommorow garunteed.

 

[Redbad]

Concerning MA research and Leonardo's

We need to get 12 MA techs to sail the oceans freely and build cavalry. If we estimate these techs wil cost on avarage 5 turns that makes 60 turns. If we can trade for 1 with the AI then 55 turns. Republic costs another 4 turns and currency probably 4. So that's 63 turns in all. Of course it could very well be somewhat less if we can trade for more techs or research faster, but it just as well could be somewhat more if research doesn't average 5 turns per tech.

Getting Leonardo's done within that timeframe only takes 10 spt. At this moment there are already cities that can do that. But if we take for instance Warwick in Republic it will able to put out at least 15 shields at sizes 7 or 8. So we can realisticly estimate a city (pre)building Leonardo's to do 12 spt on average. That means we can start (pre)building it after switching to republic. That way our GA will start a little before we reach MT. Which will be ideal to provide the cash for massive upgrade from horsemen to cavalry.

Concerning the research path, I think it's best to research navigation first and then MT. With navigation we can map out the whereabouts of Dr. Evil. We also can build the needed seatransport capacity. Then when we hit MT our GA will provide the cash to mass upgrade, we know where Dr. Evil is and we have the transport capacity in place.

 

[Abegweit]

Caravels have movement 8 and so can be used for exploration quite efficiently. I suggest that our research plans should be:

1) get Feudalism and Engineering out there ASAP in the hopes that the AI will go after Invention.
2) Astronomy in order to explore. The odd landing party might be in order too.
3) MT for cavs and Academy
4) Navigation for MoWs and galleons
5) Steam and industrialisation.

WRT 1), a couple of short wars to disconnect the AI iron might be in order. Gil's is easily accessable. I'm not sure where Theo's is. On that point, we need to bust the fog in their countries while we have ROPs.

 

[Redbad]

Looks like the A team is on the warpath too as they expanded as rapidly as we did. They are still lacking behind in score accumelation though. However they do have a moderate culture increase. Would that be libraries, perhaps?

 

[juballs2001]

guys could i possibly swap turns with whomever is supposed to go after me... i have a lot of work to do that i could not get done at work....

it would be appreciated... im sorry i had all the intention of doing my turnset...

 

[Abegweit]

Looks like the A team is on the warpath too as they expanded as rapidly as we did. They are still lacking behind in score accumelation though. However they do have a moderate culture increase. Would that be libraries, perhaps?

A team? They're far behind. Are you referring to Wotan? That's quite an accomplishment he's has had running a team of newbs.

And the only team I see with any culture is Klarius.

 

[Redbad]

grey line A team 4 squares increase in territory between 750 and 550 BC. And increased culture.