SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

Good job guys.
Thank you!


I've been loosely following along.
I was actually hoping that were going to decide to join the team for this game, even just as a dedicated lurker. Still, hopefully you had your fun in following multiple teams' progression as the game went on.


I'm now retired from Civ4 and waiting for 5. Hopefully see you guys on the other side someday.
Jumping the gun a bit, no?

There are apparently still 33 days left to release.

Perhaps you were one of the people to have gotten to beta test Civ 5 (if they had such a beta test)?
 
Congrats 5th Element!
Thanks!


I thought you guys were going to take 6th place from US (Unusual Suspects), and think you could have if not for some bad luck slowing you down near the end. Glad you didn't, though, because I chose to delay our victory by 5 turns to get +diplo with Saldin in the SG vote (and he ended up not voting for us, but we won it anyhow).
So, if I understand you correctly, you delayed the victory to get votes that you didn't end up needing and didn't end up getting anyway. Hey, that sort of thing happens.

Although we'd planned for the religious situation to fall into place right from the start of the game, it still was by no means a straight-forward diplo map for us, either.

In fact, we hadn't even maxed out either of the Shared Religion or Shared Favourite Civic bonuses with most AIs when the Diplo Vote came up, so all of that religious planning wasn't even put to its fullest use.


We had the last GP on the fur two turns before victory, and that would have otherwise been our bottleneck too. So had you beaten us by 1 turn I would be in the doghouse now. As it stands, my 5 turn delay didn't cost us any placing in the finishings. :whew:
So, this statement makes it sound like the logistics of your last Great Person was indeed going to be a bottleneck, had you not delayed for 5 turns.

Thus, it seems like your delay of 5 turns minimally had to be 5 turns minus those "2 turns before victory" of moving the last Great Person, or minimally 3 turns of delay (perhaps minues one more turn for the "extra movement" of units allowed on the turn that you win).


I agree with Dhoomstriker that without the silver, the decision to settle on the PH is not obvious. We decided the extra hammer for earlier worker would easily pay for itself, though. That we got silver makes our choice of settling the PH a very lucrative one, and that is more than enough bonus to explain why we finished ahead of you guys.
Certainly, there are other decisions in where our teams differed, likely very many of them, so I think that it would be unfair to say that any single factor caused a difference in end dates.

I haven't read your thread yet, but based on your few comments, it sounds like you played a solid game where your decisions were carefully weighed. In the end, you came out with a great result, regardless of how you got there, so indeed you and your team deserve congrats!


Looking at the Gold game (Plastic Ducks), we were too careful about not declaring war until we know where the resources are. By the time we knew, it would have required slowing down our tech pace too much. Early on, we joked about taking Zara's GLH capitol, but didn't have the guts to actually do it.
Wow, the Great Lighthouse would have been a worthy prize indeed! Our Zara built Stonehenge and thus got his Unique Buildings--the Steles--with +25% Culture, everywhere for free, even in his Desert Cities.

It would have been nice to have captured his capitol (Aksum) just to reduce the cultural pressure, but it wouldn't have been as nice of a gain as the Great Lighthouse.

However, if the restrictions on not declaring on multiple AIs and not eliminating AIs were not in place, there likely would have been a lot of teams that decided that "Zara had to go," even if it was just to capture his capitol.

Surely, this aspect of the game went according to the game designer's plan--forcing us to take only a single good City as a prize, to delay our war declarations so as not to use them up, or to wait until finding other juicier AIs to declare war on.



And we didn't really figure out that getting enough diplo for Friendly status would be too slow without the common war bonus... I guess none of US have been able to build the UN so quickly that it mattered before. We played the game with no war at all.
We probably could have pulled it off without the Mutual Military Struggle bonuses, but we likely would have had to either convert Zara to Buddhism (the world's common Religion in our game, with everyone but Zara ending the game in said Religion) or else gift him The UN, as per our original plan.

Basically, we went up against the #2 in population AI (Toku) because we had enough support from the AIs, but without the Mutual Military Struggle bonuses, we'd have either have needed to have switched into Buddhism earlier (for Isabella) or have needed to have converted Zara to the world's common Religion.

So, it was certainly doable without the Mutual Military Struggle positive Diplo bonuses, but it made the game more straight-forward when we stopped trying to please everybody.


I think you guys play with really great teamwork, so much so that we have tried to emulate your methods as much as we can.
Thanks, but I wonder how that can be? Have you started to play an Open Succession Game since the SGOTM? If not, then when have you had a chance to "emulate" our methods?

And, are you saying that you actually read through our entire thread? :eek: I thought that this task would have been beyond the capabilities of the average mortal and thus everyone on my team deserves congrats for having slogged through all of the pages upon pages of virtual ink! :goodjob:


Hope you all had as much fun with this as I did
Some of us had different definitions of what "fun" meant, so at times some of us had more fun than others. Still, I think that everyone on the team can at least point to parts of the game that they enjoyed, so overall, yes, it would be fair to say that we had a fun time of it.
 
Nice game, definitely a gutsy move to go religion first though!

I find it's a shame that cultural just can't compete with diplomatic, it would surely have paid off if the UN was further down the tech tree.

I guess every team is done now that Maple Sporks finished as well... here's to hoping SGOTM12 starts in the not too distant future :cheers:
 
So, if I understand you correctly, you delayed the victory to get votes that you didn't end up needing and didn't end up getting anyway. Hey, that sort of thing happens.

Thats what it felt like for sure. I've since replayed the ending without the delay and we lose the SG vote without the dely. I delayed to get Saladins vote, but apparently it was needed to get Mehmed's vote. Unless of course there are random factors that affected my replay.

So, this statement makes it sound like the logistics of your last Great Person was indeed going to be a bottleneck, had you not delayed for 5 turns.

Probably not. I didn't chain the galleons because I knew it had lots of time to get there with the 5t diplo delay. Instead the galleons were used to bring mace/missionary to take barb cities and increase pop. I wouldn't have bothered with the barb cities, and chained the galleons for the last GP instead.

Certainly, there are other decisions in where our teams differed, likely very many of them, so I think that it would be unfair to say that any single factor caused a difference in end dates.

Yes, absolutely true. We lost our first warrior in t7 and lost a worker when we had only 2 cities, too. That cost us some (Indiansmoke estimates 30 t, but I think that's a bit pessimistic).


Thanks, but I wonder how that can be? Have you started to play an Open Succession Game since the SGOTM? If not, then when have you had a chance to "emulate" our methods?

We've stolen a lot of your methods, team guidelines and such, from previous SGOTM's. Of course we haven't been looking in SGOTM11 threads until we finished. :rolleyes:



And, are you saying that you actually read through our entire thread? :eek: I thought that this task would have been beyond the capabilities of the average mortal and thus everyone on my team deserves congrats for having slogged through all of the pages upon pages of virtual ink!

:lol: Not even close. The first page and last pages, mostly. But then when we finished SGOTM11 I started following the thread... but still didn't have the stamina to read everything, not even just the stuff from that point onward. :crazyeye:
 
Hinduism Beeline
Nice game, definitely a gutsy move to go religion first though!
Go big or go home.

You have to be willing to try things a little bit differently from the mainstream approach, sometimes.

At the time, we were still contemplating between chasing after a Cultural Victory or a Religion-hording Diplo Victory game, so it made sense to chase after a Religion.


The resulting diplo map worked highly in our favour, both from the AIs being in a common Religion and from very few Worst Enemies existing, thus making it a lot easier to navigate the various AI Demands.


Still, skipping Hinduism but chasing after the other Religions would have been a better play, IF luck were on our side. Say, if Isabella founded one Religion and Saladin founded the other, we'd have had a very similar situation as to what we saw in our game, where Saladin founded Buddhism and Isabella ended up being Hindu from natural Religion-spreading anyway.

But if, say, Justinian and Saladin had each founded a Religion, our Religious-chasing strategy wouldn't have been all that useful to continue pursuing.


Not knowing the makeup of the AIs or the relative map layout also played a role--for quite some time, we assumed that Buddhism had been founded by an AI that wasn't reachable until after Astronomy--as it meant that it was difficult to predict the impact of letting both of the first two Religions go. So, ultimately, we decided to horde as many of the non-Buddhism Religions as made sense to do so.


On the other hand, if we were to have been beaten to Hinduism, we would have simply been able to get to Agriculture that much sooner, while still being on a good track to pick up Judaism, which was on our planned tech path. Thus, we felt that we would not be "wasting" any partially-invested Flasks on Polytheism by researching it first.


Cultural Game--Alternate Victory Conditions for different Victory Types Suggestion (for future games?)
I find it's a shame that cultural just can't compete with diplomatic, it would surely have paid off if the UN was further down the tech tree.
I'm sure that if your team had played for a Cultural Victory, it could have achieved an amazing result, just the same.

That said, the impact of having to save 4 Great People would have had a much larger impact on a Cultural game than on a Diplo game, so this game condition was inherrently unfair, further unbalancing the gap between a Diplo game and a Cultural game.

IN FACT, now that I think about it, the game designer could have said "Diplo Victories need 4 sacrificial Great People on the Fur (or 5 or 6, say), while Eldine loves Cultural Victories so she will understand the reasons for using up the Great People in pursuit of a Cultural game. Therefore, 0 Great People are required on the Fur if you win a Cultural Victory."

Honestly, just a little creative change in the game's conditions like that would, I think, have not only balanced Cultural vs Diplo but would have had a lot more teams chasing after a Cultural game.

Cultural games would have still had to have captured the Fur and sent Warriors there, so the conditions would still have been similar (a Cultural game couldn't have just ignored the outside world), but with the Victory Conditions being far more balanced.

I believe that if a game is going to be limited to two or three Victory Conditions, the game designer should be able to create "alternate" game conditions (like sending Great People to the Fur or limiting War Declarations) in order to better balance the victory dates across different Victory conditions. Thus, it could make it fun for teams to compete by playing for any number of Victory Conditions, instead of just going for the "almost certain to finish earlier" Victory condition.

What do you think of this idea?


Next SGOTM
I guess every team is done now that Maple Sporks finished as well... here's to hoping SGOTM12 starts in the not too distant future :cheers:
We'll see how it goes. It would be nice to be able to draw the Russians back onto the scene.

It might even be great if some players went and unofficially advertised the competition elsewhere, such as on other Civ-based web sites (that I won't mention the name of, in case mentioning them is against the Forum's Rules--if it's not against the Forum Rules, go nuts in mentioning them yourself). If people have accounts on other Civ-based web sites, then they could use their "street credit" there to advertise the SGOTM over here. If that web site doesn't host a similar event, then it's not like it would be direct comptetion for that web site's offerings, and we might get an extra team or two to make up for possibly losing a team or two due to Civ 5.

Still, I think that most players of this SGOTM would actually be willing to play another Civ 4 SGOTM, as it'll be a long time before a Civ 5 SGOTM will be feasible, due to the great length of time required to properly set up a Mod like the HOF (aka BUFFY) Mod.
 
Saladin, Mehmed, and for whomever needed pleasing--it sounds good that you delayed your victory by those 5 turns
Thats what it felt like for sure. I've since replayed the ending without the delay and we lose the SG vote without the dely. I delayed to get Saladins vote, but apparently it was needed to get Mehmed's vote. Unless of course there are random factors that affected my replay.
Time heals wounds. Including many Diplomatic ones.

In this case, you might have either lost some negative Diplo modifiers that "expired" or gained some positive Diplo modifiers that "kicked in" for having lasted longer, such as sharing Vassalage with Mehmed, sharing a Religion with him, or whatever it was that you did to get his vote.

Basically, you made the right call and it paid off. Nice work!


Galleon Chaining
Probably not. I didn't chain the galleons because I knew it had lots of time to get there with the 5t diplo delay. Instead the galleons were used to bring mace/missionary to take barb cities and increase pop. I wouldn't have bothered with the barb cities, and chained the galleons for the last GP instead.
Okay, I see where you're coming from. Had you planned to finish earlier, you would have put more emphasis on Great Person logistics.

Still, weren't you afraid of Privateers sinking your Great Person? Perahps you were just so far ahead of the AIs technologically that this concern wasn't an issue.


Early-game Losses
Yes, absolutely true. We lost our first warrior in t7 and lost a worker when we had only 2 cities, too. That cost us some (Indiansmoke estimates 30 t, but I think that's a bit pessimistic).
Early losses do set you back, but I think that you have to PLAN to lose some of your Warriors. It's expected. If you don't lose any, then it is purely luck-based and not skill-based, so you shouldn't plan for achieving a "perfect result" and then feel bad when a couple of Warriors predictably die.

Losing a Worker hurts, but the impact is less based on how many Cities you had as compared to how many Corn Resources you had already Farmed. If you had 2 Farmed Corn Resources, then the impact would have been much smaller than if you'd lost the Worker before making any improvements, right? So, 30 turns might apply if you lost the Worker after having improved zero squares or after having the Barbs pillage all of your improvements.

But, if you had some improvements to help you rebuild your Worker, then I think an estimate of 30 turns lost is a touch too high.


SGOTM Methods
We've stolen a lot of your methods, team guidelines and such, from previous SGOTM's. Of course we haven't been looking in SGOTM11 threads until we finished. :rolleyes:
I wasn't implying anything differently; so, thanks for clarifying, as I was honestly curious.

If you want to get useful info out of our thread in this SGOTM, you'll have to be willing to dredge through pages and pages of discussion, side-issues, fights (hey, we all have our moments), test game discussion, and the like, just to get to the hidden gems buried amongst the rest of the messages.

As an incentive, BLubmuz did make the claim that many messages in this month's Fifth Element SGOTM thread would make for effective additions to the War Academy, but I also have no intention of making your job easier by linking to all of the useful messages. If you want "the good stuff," you'll have to "suffer" through the rest of the messages, like the rest of us did! :mischief: :lol:
 
Back from the mountains!

First, thanks for the recommanedations about wilderness, but thi is the place where i was... http://www.altopiano.asiago.com/home/ sorry the site it's only in Italian, but it can give an idea... more than the wilderness i would have to be care for the food...
On a cultural note, those places were the Front Line in WWI. And... you can find nice woods and mountains, but you have to walk.

Back on topic.

I've seen Mitch brought us to the victory exactly as per the plans. Great job all of us.
Even if we finished again in the middle of the pack, this time we were closer.

Nice to see that many teams took inspiration from our style, at least we gain some reputation, in a way or another.

For our competitors, i can address them to the post #2 on page 1, where i linked all our TurnSets.

I hope every team, mainly the medals winners will post something in the End-Game-Spoiler.

Just to keep ourselves warm, what about take back our warm-up game? We can use our experience to try to perfect some mechanism in our team play and have some fun, since it will be a war like game.
 
Still, weren't you afraid of Privateers sinking your Great Person? Perahps you were just so far ahead of the AIs technologically that this concern wasn't an issue.

Nobody had astro except us (we traded it to someone with 1 turn to UN). So no privateer concerns at all. I enjoyed reading all the other team spoilers where they were a big concern, though. :D

Losing a Worker hurts, but the impact is less based on how many Cities you had as compared to how many Corn Resources you had already Farmed.
That was my feeling, too. As amatter of fact, the worker died because it was being used as a scout to fogbust for a settler on the way to a spot, and the turn player misjudged how many movement points the tile would take. So I figured we lost an expensive scout. Obviously, if we are fogbusting with workers (rather than working unimproved tiles) the loss of one is not game breaking, imo.

If you want to get useful info out of our thread in this SGOTM, you'll have to be willing to dredge through pages and pages of discussion,

Yeah... as captain it is/was my duty to keep our summary page up to date, but I am derelict in my duties since like the thrid turnset. When we win laurels, it will be higher priority for educating the masses. I thought we did a good game, but if you want an education, ours is not the thread to spend your time on. Plastic Ducks taught us all a lesson in war strategy, and OSS did too with a peaceful one.

But hej... we all gotta feel good that our efforts resulted in really good finishes. The competition was tough, though... just the way I like it!

Congrats again, I think any team finishing this one with all the conditions met under 1400AD did amazingly well. :goodjob:
 
BLubmuz' Trip
Back from the mountains!

First, thanks for the recommanedations about wilderness, but thi is the place where i was... http://www.altopiano.asiago.com/home/ sorry the site it's only in Italian, but it can give an idea... more than the wilderness i would have to be care for the food...
On a cultural note, those places were the Front Line in WWI. And... you can find nice woods and mountains, but you have to walk.
Wow, that web site really seems to advertise "luxury"-based camp sites... more like... rent an apartment or a hotel room that is NEAR some wilderness.

I even saw a link to a Golf Resort, complete with buffet-style meals!


Middle of the Pack
I've seen Mitch brought us to the victory exactly as per the plans. Great job all of us.
Even if we finished again in the middle of the pack, this time we were closer.
It actually looks like we finished exactly in the middle of the pack, but we'll know for certain once the results are published.


Summaries of the Game
I hope every team, mainly the medals winners will post something in the End-Game-Spoiler.
I assume that you're going to take on this responsibility for our team, right? That's your job as the Captain, right?


For our competitors, i can address them to the post #2 on page 1, where i linked all our TurnSets.
You're also going to finish updating this message, right?


Non-SGOTM Succession Game
Just to keep ourselves warm, what about take back our warm-up game? We can use our experience to try to perfect some mechanism in our team play and have some fun, since it will be a war like game.
You could just go ahead and start adding comments in that game to get the ball rolling. I don't even remember what the thread was, but I'll get an email message about it at the end of the day on which you first post a message.
 
Workers
Obviously, if we are fogbusting with workers (rather than working unimproved tiles) the loss of one is not game breaking, imo.
Wow, just wow. We were really "behind the 8 ball" in terms of Workers, having aggressive Wonder-building goals and a stagnant City #2. In fact, I had to slave-drive the team (to the detriment of some fun) to ask for perfect Worker micromanagement, in order to help us to get "caught up" on our deficit of Worker improvements that needed to be made.

The fact that you were using your Worker as a Scout just speaks volumes as to just how far we had to go in our Worker improvements just to get "caught up."


Game Summary aka Spoiler
Yeah... as captain it is/was my duty to keep our summary page up to date, but I am derelict in my duties since like the thrid turnset.
There's no time like the present! They say that the present is a gift, so get to work and wrap it up (the present of your updated summary) for us! :cool:


When we win laurels, it will be higher priority for educating the masses.
On the contrary, sharing spoilers isn't just for the winners, as doing so allows others to give comments on how you might improve. So, you shouldn't wait until you win laurels but should get started now!

That said, if anyone reading our thread has comments or questions as they go, feel free to quote such a message and reply to it. If there are questions, we'll do our best to respond to them.


Congrats to other Teams
Congrats again, I think any team finishing this one with all the conditions met under 1400AD did amazingly well. :goodjob:
I would go so far as to say that any team which finished this game and met all of the conditions did amazingly well. It wasn't an easy game and teams really had to pull together and work hard in order to finish it successfully!
 
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