SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Mitchum]

Okay, I can certainly provide Worker actions.
I can also provide build orders.

We expect nothing less!

For example, do I need to post a partial PPP, then once I've played it an come to such a decision, stop play, report the situation, and then wait for 24 hours?

I suggest posting a full PPP with "planned" trades. This PPP will be approved as normal. If the trades are available, make them per the agreed plan. If not, then pause and wait as you suggested.

Should we set up a "scheduled time," where I can aim to play while a few of you are going to commit to trying to be online for providing feedback?

This sounds fine to me. Weekends are usually out for me, but if they work for everyone else, I'm fine missing it (or sneaking a few minutes here or there to check the thread).

For example, if I slip into No State Religion, there is a tiny chance that Tokugawa will be Pleased with us. Likely not, but if I am willing to gift him a tech

Spoiler :

Currency is probably all that I will feel comfortable trading away, since AIs tend to research and trade this tech themselves, unlike the religious ones on which we can keep our Monopoly for a long period of time

, then I can almost certainly get him to a Pleased status and can set up an initial trade or two with him (which again may just be gifting him a Resource).

Yes, we need both Toku and Sal to keep open borders as long as possible to help spread Buddhism to us (OB with Toku is near impossible withoug shared religion though). Once we have that, the diplo game gets a lot easier. We should be prepared to stop trading with that heathen Zara at Sal or Toku's request.

Let me just propose something and then you can critique how it sounds:
1. 4 hours or 2 replies that agree, whichever comes first, means that I proceed?
2. If I see 1 reply that disagrees before the above condition is met, it means that we stop play and will debate the issue? Then we will try to have some kind of agreement reached within 24 hours of posting the situation?

Sounds good to me. As I said, don't plan the turnset around my schedule.

 

[Mitchum]

Resource Trading

I agree that health resources are free to trade. Do not trade happy resources or strategic resources (e.g. horses, iron). I'm fine with trading stone once the Hanging Gardens are built.

I think your plan with Currency sounds fine as well.

Why don't you plan on playing at a set time that works for most people. Then, if something comes up, you can pause and post in our thread as you suggested in your previous post.

 

[unclethrill]

I agree with Mitchum.

I am confident that you will make the right choices on trades.

It is a diplo game so we are mostly obliged to accept demands. We need to trade away anything we can for diplo purposes. Feel free to trade away any happiness resources if you can get another in return.

Currency is about the only tech we will be wanting to trade anytime soon but if there is a demand for another tech, you are the expert Dhoom so I will vote/agree with whatever your suggestion is anyway so count my vote already.

In general, I have faith in your decisions and you can count my vote in favor of your choice unless I explicitly state otherwise.

As far as when I will for sure be online to vote for a choice, Saturday and sunday from 1900 to 2200 GMT is fine for me.

 

[BLubmuz]

Since Dhoom is our official strategist for this Diplo game, i think that once we can see his PPP with the trades scenario described (as he already almost did in his last posts) we can express our opinions, but i think we have to agree with his proposals, since (i hope) he knows what he will do.

This said, i think that a normal PPP with all the actions listed (research, builds, whips, civics/religion and so on) is all we need.

The only reason to stop and inform the team would be a new AI met.

Also, we're now planning to settle (assumed we can) the city on the (probably) island E of Aksum. Once he will reveal the land he can propose the city placement. Consensus on this is the only other reason to stop his TS.

BTW, i've seen we're deadly last in score and power in the SG graphs and even on culture we're in the middle of the pack now.

Noticed i have to update page 1. Will do soon

 

[BLubmuz]

Dhoom is goin' to complete our second round of TSs.
Assuming we regularly play 15 turns/TS, with next round of 5 we'll arrive to turn 252.
Continuing assuming 15 turns/TS, another round of 5 (the 4th) will bring us to turn 327, so close to the end if we're good enough.

In any case, we need 11 more TSs to arrive close to the finish date. 50 days to go. 4 days on average to be on time.

I propose to just list the TS targets from now on (i mean from the incoming TS) and to let to the UP player to refine the plan for MM whit a mandatory test before play the actual game.

I think this the only way to finish on time.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The Land to the North
Okay, so I will get Currency within 2 turns, meaning that I'll have it before I can settle on the continent/island to the north.

I will thus want to settle there ASAP, as it will be worth about 5 Gold per Turn in terms of Net Commercial profit

Spoiler :

where Net Commercial profit = the Trade Route bonus in every City that doesn't already have two "2 or higher valued" Trade Routes minus the increased Maintenance Costs across the entire empire.

So, I'd rather land our Settler Party on the spot on which we prefer to settle out of the options initially available.

Now, from what I can see from fog-gazing, is as follows:
O, O, C, G, G, ?, ?
Cl, O, C, S, G, C, C/O
C, Cl, C, C, C, C, F

O = Ocean
C = Coast
G = Grassland Jungle
? = I can't tell
S = Sugar
Cl = Clam
F = Fish

Of course, everyone loves a screenshot, so I'll give you one of those, too:

Spoiler :

So, I see a couple of immediate options:
1. Settle on the Grassland Jungle 1E of the Sugar, so that we share Fish with the Incense City (a City which we have yet to build). The two Cities can take turns working the Fish and then not whipping all that much once they both have a Granary and a Lighthouse. We will eventually get more Food out of the Sugar this way, which will help for growing into a larger-sized population for Diplomatic Votes, but it will take a long time to improve that Sugar, too.
2. Settle on the Sugar, sharing the Clam with Three Clams. The downside here is that if we really do plan to leverage Three Clams as a secondary Great Person Farm, then that Clam will only be available for a short window of time. That Clam also isn't available immediately, as Three Clams will be working it and will have "nothing better" to work until about 5 turns after the earliest date that we could settle this Northern City.
3. Explore the land bit a more, at a cost of approximately 5 Gold per Turn that we do not settle

Even if you like Option 3, I'd still like a preferred "initial location" to land on. I'm leaning towards option 1, since I really do want to leverage Three Clams as a secondary Great Person Farm, especially given the overlap that it has with surrounding Cities, so that Clam won't be useful for very long.

Option 2 does have the plus of giving us Sugar as soon as we learn Caledar, but we aren't hurting for Happiness, so slowly improving the Sugar would be just as fine for our Happiness needs.


The other question is "how far" do I explore before settling? I can explore with the Galley and the Warrior for one turn of movement at no cost, but if I don't settle on that turn, it'll cost us about 5 Gold per turn that we don't settle. Seeing as how we only barely make over 25 Gold per turn, that's a good amount of Net Gold per Turn to add (you could call it an additional 20% boost to our economy just by settling that one City, depending upon how you evaluate the numbers).

The other thing is... if I move the Settler and then decide to move him back, that's a cost of 2 turns. If I DON'T move the Settler and don't settle, then wait for what the Galley and the Warrior reveal on their second turn of exploration, I'd have to spend even more time just to get to a more northern settling location.


Leaving the Settler on the Galley isn't much help, either, as then I'd still have to spend a turn later to unload the Settler, while worrying about the Galley plus Settler being sunk by a Barb Galley in the meantime.

 

[BLubmuz]

Deciding where to settle without knowledge of the actual land is time lost.
We're bounded by safety reasons to unload the warrior first, then the galley can move to try to unfog another tile. If every tile is unfogged revealing no barbs, the settler can land.
Until all the island - and the coast (to see seafood) - is unfogged we can't take a decision. I prefer delay the settling 1 or even 2 turns but be sure we settle in the best possible spot.
If there're many sugar resources (as often happens for calendar resources) we can also consider to settle on a sugar, which gives +1F, provided this can maybe give the city a seafood or a better tile to work.

But surely we need to see a screenie with every tile unfogged.

For the reasons i stated few posts ago (time) the decision must be taken in max 12 hours after you'll post the screenie. Who's in is in, who's out is out.

4 days on average for each TS do not let much time.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Until all the island - and the coast (to see seafood) - is unfogged we can't take a decision...
I prefer delay the settling 1 or even 2 turns but be sure we settle in the best possible spot.

Okay, this info helps. It means that I can plan the test saved game runthrough a bit more appropriately, since I was tempted to settle immediately.

Now, I'll have to factor in this fact and can do one of two things:
1. Write a PPP for my entire turnset that stops detailing exact Science Rate values after the first few turns, since I won't be able to calculate these values if we are settling Cities that we cannot see the land for
OR
2. Write a partial PPP up until the point that I would need to settle, play it out quickly, get feedback on where to settle, and then continue with providing very accurate PPPs

For the reasons i stated few posts ago (time) the decision must be taken in max 12 hours after you'll post the screenie. Who's in is in, who's out is out.

Okay, so that's a different system from the one that I proposed. Do you disagree with the one that I posted? If yes, do you want to form a complete new proposal? "12 hours" by itself isn't going to be helpful as a rule, since if we get agreement from a lot of players or disagreement from 1 or more players, we should be able to cut the time short or extend it. That's why I came up with the suggested plan on this matter and I'd prefer to stick by the timing rules that I laid out unless you can offer a more complete procedure with different numbers.

we can also consider to settle on a sugar, which gives +1F, provided this can maybe give the city a seafood or a better tile to work.

Okay, but I just finished asking you that question in my last message and you missed answering that very important question:
Of the two settling options presented, which would you prefer? I will need to land the Settler somewhere and end its turn somewhere, so I'd rather that I be doing so in the preferred of those two locations.

If we plan to move later, it'll be a moot point, but if we don't plan to move later, I can save 1 turn of settling just by getting a very simple opinion now, so that I can write into my PPP where exactly to offload the Wariror and Settler.


I can also just write the PPP without asking these issues up-front, but if I DO NOT ask these kinds of details as separate DISCUSSION POINTS (like I am trying to do while writing the PPP as each issue comes up), then it will either take a really long time to review my PPP later or else people won't really pay attention to the decisions being made and might later be surprised why we did the things that we did.

 

[BLubmuz]

I cannot give you any opinion, until i know if some barb is (or not) in that island.
And the less until i don't know how the map is: land, sea, resources.

So, i confirn what i've posted early: no need to stop to discuss trades if you describe what you will try to do. But surely stop to decide a city location.

BTW, do you think the new settler for overseas will be ready in your TS? IF so, we need another stop and go for the same reasons.

Here we're not discussing MM, we're discussing something that can lose our settler to a barb. Our warrior in a forest can have good chances defending even against an archer, but an axe can be around. I suppose tha if there's a barb in that island we already seen it, but i won't bet our settler on this.

About the details, we can't afford to be very accurate. A raw plan is enough.

We haven't decided what research path to follow, BTW.
The literature one or the optics one?
What about the GArtist from Music?
Are you sure we want invest hammers on the GLib? Surely not in Dehli, which is highly polluted. In GPF maybe?
What about the AP?

We need to discuss this while waiting between official PPPs and play. We're running out of time.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I cannot give you any opinion, until i know if some barb is (or not) in that island.
And the less until i don't know how the map is: land, sea, resources.

Okay... I understand what you are saying...
Yet, I will still need to decide where to offload the Warrior. The Settler would follow the Warrior if the area is clear but would stay on the Galley otherwise. I already have a plan as to which square to land on, so I'll just go ahead and put that in the PPP, but the point was that I was giving people the opportunity to:
a) Comment ahead of time
AND
b) Be aware of the options available, as it is not always easy to see when options are available

But surely stop to decide a city location.

Sure!

BTW, do you think the new settler for overseas will be ready in your TS?

At least two.

The first one will go to the land to the north, the second to the land to the east.

Here we're not discussing MM, we're discussing something that can lose our settler to a barb.

That's an odd reason to stop.

Don't get me wrong; I have no issue with stopping for a settling location and will plan to do so.

But that reason doesn't make a lot of sense--surely, if I see a Barb unit, I won't land the Settler--that's pretty straight-forward. If such a Barb unit exists and our Warrior wins, we land the Settler. If it loses, we retreat and plan to build a stronger unit.

I would think that the most valid reason to stop would be so that people can argue in favour of one settling location over another.

About the details, we can't afford to be very accurate. A raw plan is enough.

Well, there certainly will be many stop-and-gos, but I will need the details to keep track of my decisions. Whether or not I show you the PPP, I still need to write it. So, why not share my work with the team?


Tech Research

We haven't decided what research path to follow, BTW.
The literature one or the optics one?
What about the GArtist from Music?

Here's my take on the situation:
1. Metal Casting will be learned by the AIs shortly, either before we can trade it or such that they will have already started to partially research it and thus its trade value will not be worth the full tech's value
2. Other techs down the Optics line are usually very easy to trade for from the AIs, and they often research these techs one after each other, so you usually don't miss out on much time where the AIs will have Caravels when you don't have them, as long as you're good at tech trading, that is
3. We need to start building The National Epic for our Great Person Farm and we really should get the tech (Literature) before we start teching Education
4. Music isn't going to give us a good tradeoff--it's best value would be to trade for techs like Philosophy from a Friendly AI, but we already have the religious techs for this kind "save the monopoly techs for later" kind of trading. In terms of raw Flask value, the Artist can get us more Flasks bulbed in Radio than it will cost to research Music. But that's not the issue. The issue is the tradeoff of delaying Education and thus our extremely cheap Universities; the longer that we delay building the Universities, the further that we actually fall behind, and we actually end up missing out on more Flasks than the Flasks "saved" by Lightbulbing part of Radio. So, for "trade bait," the tech will be limited in value, while we could be better served by working on the University of Sankore (Paper) and Universities + Oxford (Education) sooner

So, regardless of whether we go for the World Wonders on the path to Literature, we definitely need to go down that path for The National Epic.

Are you sure we want invest hammers on the GLib? In GPF maybe?

I'm sorry, but we've got a Warrior that is preventing one of the few spots of Forest growth by GPF. I will move this Warrior on our first turn, but without additional Forests growing by GPF, there is not even a slim a hope of completing this Wonder there.

Surely not in Dehli, which is highly polluted.

Exactly in Delhi. What better place? Oxford will go there. We will actually have enough Hammers to complete it on time. We will actually make enough GPP to be able to generate a few Great People out of the bargain.

In fact, with 3 Great-Engineer-based Wonders in Delhi, we actually want more GPP there, since one chance at a Great Engineer at 71% odds is not as good as two to chances at 40% odds, and very likely we'll get three or more chances at 40% odds by putting The Great Library there.

What about the AP?

It'll be started within my turnset in Wheaties.

We need to discuss this while waiting between official PPPs

Please bring up as many issues as you can think of. That is what I was trying to do. Because people will have time here and there to discuss topics, but they'll have less time if I dump a full PPP without having discussed anything on them and then say "please comment on absolutely everything within the next 24 hours."

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, so:
the settler for Sugar is almost ready, the one for the East (provided we can use him) will be during your TS. We're short on units: we need a decent unit to escort that settler. I'm thinking to an archer or better an axe.
See if the galley can scout the land before loading the settler, which can be loaded in Aksum area.

So, the path to literature after currency. No music if i got it right. The NE in GPF can pollute severely until we have at least 4 Sci hired there.

I see your point about the GLib in Dehli. After the HS, anyway.

I recommend roads to connect all our cities, for the rest, do your best.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

OK, so:
the settler for Sugar is almost ready

Actually, you built him during your turnset and put him right next to Bedrock.

It's actually the Galley that we are waiting on--since Bedrock did not get the Forest chop, we have to wait until The Hanging Gardens grows Bedrock to Size 4 before we can whip our Galley.

, the one for the East (provided we can use him) will be during your TS.

He will be easily complete within my turnset. In fact, I plan to have at least one MORE Settler built during my turnset. If we can find more space on either the land mass to the north or to the east, then we can put down a second City on either location. Failing that, well, I'll have a "roaming Settler Party" that will just have to hunt for an empty space to settle.

We're short on units: we need a decent unit to escort that settler. I'm thinking to an archer

I'll try to change the build order to include an Archer, just for you.

or better an axe.

An Axe is actually a poor City defender when he is by himself. A Chariot can lay complete waste to an Axe in BTS.

An Axeman is great when PAIRED UP with another unit, whether that unit be a Spearman, an Archer, or whomever, but we certainly don't have the resources to be building multiple Military Units per City at this stage of the game.

So, the path to literature after currency. No music if i got it right.

That would be my suggested tech plan. You guys are free to argue otherwise.

The NE in GPF can pollute severely until we have at least 4 Sci hired there.

Meh. One Great Artist = one Golden Age.

A second Great Artist = save for one of the 4 Great People at the end of the game. No worries.

I see your point about the GLib in Dehli. After the HS, anyway.

Indeed. I'll delay starting on the Hagia Sophia slightly (by a couple of turns or so) just to get you your Archer, but we still have a tech monopoly, so we should be able to build it first easily.

What concerns me more is The Parthenon. I have no idea where we'd put that Wonder. Clearly, The Apostolic Palace has to take precedence over The Parthenon. I don't MIND starting The Parthenon in Wheaties immediately afterwards, but we might not build it in time.

Delhi is not an option for building The Parthenon. We don't mind the odd Great Scientist, but let's not risk getting TOO many Great Arists.

Bedrock will be whipped right down to the bloodly bedrock without even having a Granary or an Organized Religion bonus, so it will take a while to recover.

I can't think of anywhere else that would have the required Hammer output to build it.

I recommend roads to connect all our cities

I haven't forgotten, but an improvement that a citizen can use within 6 turns of it being completed will take precedence over Roads.

You will at least get the odd Road here and there (one on the way to Riverdale, one on the Marble)... the rest I haven't played far enough in the test saved game yet to figure them out.

 

[Irgy]

Well the simple solution to the Parthenon problem is to not build it because it's a waste of hammers

I'm not around much on the weekend, but as interesting and easy to get into as trades are, I'm happy to trust Dhoomstriker's opinions (especially if there's at least someone else around to check it).

I agree with your proposed research path.

My inclination for settling sugar island is to settle it further away. I don't see the use in overlapping with the fish or clams that we'll work from other cities, so grab some more land to the north. It's not so much about exploring the land in that case (which I also think is generally worth the delayed settlement) but about the fact that the already-visible sites aren't likely to be the best choices.

 

[Mitchum]

Out of curiosity, are we considering settling on the land we can see west? Settling closer to Sal and Toku will help us get Buddhism, right? I would think that would take precedence over settling east...

I agree with the tech path toward Literature. HS and GLib in Delhi.

Go Dhoom!!

 

[BLubmuz]

Out of curiosity, are we considering settling on the land we can see west? Settling closer to Sal and Toku will help us get Buddhism, right? I would think that would take precedence over settling east...

Too dangerous. Until we have buddhism Sal and Toku are annoyed with us. Unless we can garrison that city with strong units, it will be in danger. No, i think trying settling E is our best option.
If the land was good Sal would already have settled it instead of sending a settler in our continent. And in a spot without any resource.

And i agree with Irgy-the-viper. The parthenon risks to be a waste of hammers.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Some Notes about the Partial PPP
I just wanted to get something out there for you guys to review. I am obviously far from being done all 30 turns here, and there are gaps starting to form--I am not sure how far I will need to explore the Sugarlands, nor whether I will have to deal with Barb land units or Barb Galleys there.

I want to explore west, as I found that we can get additional Trade Routes if we "find" Isabella's Cities, so I would like to do the same with Saladin/Toku. I just can't really detail the moves once it's in the black area because, well, it's hidden from view!

I've got a good handle on what I'm doing with the Workers.

I've also leveraged The Hanging Gardens to give our empire an awesome kickstart by whipping away just about every population point that we got (Delhi whips 2 people while Wheaties doesn't whip any)--pretty much every other City whips once, so I pretty much have "skimmed" off all of those population points to equal +45 Hammers (sometimes with an Org Rel bonus or Bureaucracy bonus on top of that) in roughly each City.

It seemed, for example, far more effective to work an improve Clam than to work an unimproved Clam and an unimproved PCow in our Three Clams City.


I've already talked about how I'd like to leverage the trading opportunities, and I plan to try and follow my earlier suggestions of how I'd trade Resources and techs (aiming to trade Currency and doing so proactively to Toku once I've traded it away to at least 1 AI, so that hopefully, Toku won't get whiny and start demanding Theology or Code of Laws). I was able to trade for Construction in the test saved game--let's hope that I can manage to do the same in the real game.

It sounds like you guys want updates whenever I meet an AI or have explored enough land area to be able to decide where to settle a City. Okay, I can do so.

I don't know when a good time to play will be or how long I will need to wait after posting this message. It is certainly an annoying turnset, because exploring hidden areas doesn't lead so well to describing one's movements and because the trading situation is going to be very hard to mimic in the test saved game. Oh well, I did my best with planning things out.

I even squeezed in an Archer for BLubz and sent a Worker to the Deer ASAP, so I don't really foresee any complaints coming forth.


Partial PPP
T162 (170 BC)
Rename Bombay to Risaia (already done in the test saved game)
Settle Crabs -> Examine the City
Crabs: works the Fish
Crabs: Builds a Work Boat
Settle Three Clams -> Examine the City
Three Clams: works the Clam
Three Clams: Builds a Work Boat
Science Rate: Set to 100%
WAKE and Move Warrior 2 1W GFor (1E of Crabs and N + N of the Fish)

Spoiler :

he's blocking Forest regrowth chances at the moment

Worker 5: Ctrl + 5
Worker 5: IN PLACE:

Spoiler :

he only had 1/3 movement points left

Cottage/Stop (1SE of the PMarble)
Work Boat1: W + W to the Fish shared with Crabs
Riverdale: switches 1W GRiv Cottage to 1NW GRiv Irr

Spoiler :

Growth = Hammers = Culture = our best chance of stealing Zara's Cow and of keeping the City under our control

Move Worker 1 1SE to the PCow (1NE of Grt Person Farm) and Pasture

Spoiler :

I thought that I might do something else with this Worker, but this City grows so quickly that I will need to Pasture the Cow anyway

T163 (155 BC)
Research Currency -> Aesthetics

Spoiler :

It turns out that our Economy would have completed died as of last turn (due to settling extra Cities for The Hanging Gardens' bonus) had we skipped Currency, so it is good that we researched it when we did

Delhi builds The Hanging Gardens -> Market
Science Rate: Set to 0%

Spoiler :

the Science Rate stays a 0% for a long time--we're not out of the Commercial woes yet--getting an off-continent City will help big-time, thought

Silverado: Switch the 1NE GFor Riv to the 1NW Lake
Bedrock: Whips the Galley
Bedrock: Ctrl + click on a Galley to queue up a second Galley before the Granary
Bedrock: works the 1S and 1SE Flood Plains Cottages
Grt Person Farm: Whips the Granary
Grt Person Farm: Work the 1N Lake for 1 turn

Spoiler :

overall we will get the same amount of Food had we stayed working the Pig and not gotten this "free" Commerce, due to the way that Granary overflowing works. I put "free" in quotes because we end up growing 1 turn later--but still getting the same amount of Food--so we coudl have worked the Lake later, but this way, we potentially save a partial Gold of Maintenance--whatever; in the end, it may all work out to be the same

Risaia: Whips the Worker
Risaia: Works the FP Cottage

Spoiler :

as opposed to the Flood Plains square that does not have a Cottage

Crabs: Whips the Work Boat
Crabs: work the Fish
Three Clams: Whips the Work Boat
Three Clams: work the Clam
WAKE the Taoist Monastary in Riverdale and attempt to spread Taoism
Riverdale: If spreading was successful, Ctrl+click on a Taoist Monastary to queue it up before the Confucian Missionary
Move Worker 3 to the GRiv Cot 1S of Delhi (SE + S of the GCopper) and Road/Stop (on the way to the DEER!!! High-fives all around! )
Work Boat 1 Creates Fishing Boats on the Fish (SE + S of Crabs City)
Move Warrior 2 1W into Crabs
Move Worker 5 1NW to the PMarble (1NE of Risaia) and Quarry
Settler 9 ends its turn in place, on the GFor 1NW of Bedrock
Move Worker 4 2S to the PMarble (1NE of Risaia) and Quarry (Quarry complete in 7 turns)
Move Worker 2 1W to the GHRiv Mine and Road (which completes the Road there)

T164 (140 BC)
Grt Person Farm: Built a Granary -> Examine the City
Grt Person Farm: Work the GPig instead of the Lake
Grt Person Farm: Build a Work Boat
Risaia: Built a Worker -> Granary
Crabs: Built a Work Boat -> Work Boat
Three Clams: Built a Work Boat -> Work Boat
Bedrock: Ensure that we are building a Galley before the Granary
Move Work Boat 3 (in Three Clams) 1NE Clam and Create Fishing Boats
Move Galley 1 (in Bedrock) 2N (1E of the PCow)
Move Settler 9 1NE onto Galley 1
WAKE and Move Warrior 8 1SE onto Galley 1
Worker 6: Ctrl + 6
Move Worker 6 1NE PMarble and Quarry
Move Worker 3 1SW to the GFor Riv 1NE of Silverado (S + S + S of the GCopper) and Chop/Stop (on the way to the DEER!!!)
Move Work Boat 2 1SW then 1W (S + S of the Crab)--let's go explore!
Delhi: Whip the Market
Delhi: work the 2 Corn, Copper, GRiv Irr, 1S GRiv Cot, 1NE GRiv Cot, and NE + E GHRiv Mine

Spoiler :

growing in 2 turns instead of 4 as per the default allocation of citizens

Riverdale: Whip the Taoist Monastary

Spoiler :

if Taoism spread successfully--if not, I'm just going to make Confucian Missionaries

Riverdale: work the 1NW GRiv Irr, NW + W GRiv Cot
EDIT: Civics: Revolt to Paganism and Police State (but remain in Slavery)
Religion: Convert to No State Religion (let us see if we can make the AIs happier overall)
Fortify Warrior 2 in Crabs
Move Worker 2 to the PHFor 1NW of Wheaties (1SW of the PWheat)

Spoiler :

he will chop that Forest

T165 (125 BC)
Delhi: Examine the City
Delhi: Switch the NE + E GHRiv Mine to the 1SE PHRiv Mine, such that we will be working work the 2 Corn, Copper, GRiv Irr, 1S GRiv Cot, 1NE GRiv Cot, and 1SE PHRiv Mine (getting an extra Hammer from the Bureaucracy bonus)
Delhi: Builds an Archer

Spoiler :

to grow to Size 8 in 1 turn and because many of you want to see better units being fielded

Silverado: Switch to building a Lighthouse
??? Trade Currency to Zara for Construction and a bit of Gold--may or may not be able to do so in the real game, and if so, it may or may not happen on this turn. I will be checking trading opportunities on a turn-by-turn basis and will hope that you'll be able to do the same when you play, too
WAKE Warrior 6 (in the Desert to the north) and move him 1SE DesH--he will no longer be needed for fog-busting since we're going to put units on the land to the north and he will cost us 1 Gold per Turn soon if he stays where he is
Worker 2: Chop the PHF 1NW of Wheaties
Move Work Boat 2 towards the west
Move Galley 1 1N, 1NE (1S of the GJungle Sugar and E + E of the Clam)
UNLOAD Warrior 8 from Galley 1 and send him 1NE (1E of the GJungle Sugar)
If Warrior 8 does not spot any Barb Units, UNLOAD Settler 9 from Galley 1 and send him 1NE (1E of the GJungle Sugar)
Bedrock: whips the Galley (to overflow into the Granary)
Bedrock: works the GRiv Cottage (1SE) (growth to Size 2 in 3 turns)
Move Worker 3 to the Deer (1SE of Silverado) and Camp (it takes 8 turns!!! the countdown has begun!)

T166 (110 BC)
Move Galley 1 W, W (on the improved Clam) to defend it from the Barb Galley

Spoiler :

I don't know what to do if we lose this battle in the real game--I guess just hope that an AI Galley comes along to prevent further damage to our shipping lines. I at least won the battle in the test saved game! That counts for something, right?

Move Work Boat 2 westward
Move Warrior 8 northward
Settler 9 Skip Turn, unless something awesome is spotted
Move Galley 2 NE, NE (1W of the GHorse)
Move Warrior 6 1SE GFor (1NW of the PCow)

Spoiler :

he's moving towards the east to take a Galley ride along with the eastern Settler

Worker 5 SW + S to the Flood Plains (1S of Risaia) and Farm/Stop
Worker 6 Build a Road on the PMarble

T167 (95 BC)
Delhi: Builds an Archer -> Settler
Delhi at Size 8: work the 2 Corn, GCopper, 1S GRiv Cot, 1NE GRiv Cot, and 3 Mines

Spoiler :

you don't work a GRiv Irr square in favour of a Mined River square when building a Settler or a Worker, as you would lose 1 Hammer needlessly (and possibly more than 1 Hammer due to the Bureaucracy bonus)

Move Archer 1 1N, 1NE (NE of the GRiv Corn)
Move Warrior 8 northward
Move Galley 1 northward
Settler 9 does whatever he does based on what we reveal
Move Warrior 6 1SE PCow--still heading eastward
Move Work Boat 2 westward
Worker 4 Builds a Road on the PMarble
Move Worker 5 SE + E to the GRiv and Farm/Stop
Move Galley 2 NE, E (1NE of GHorse)

T168 (80 BC)
Move Archer 1 NE, NE (on the PCow)
Move Warrior 6 NE, NE (1E of Wheaties)
Move Work Boat 2 westward
Move Worker 5 E + E to the GRiv Horse and Road/Stop
Move Galley 2 E, E (W + W of the PWheat)
Move Worker 1 SW into GPF, NW Grassland (1SW of GPig and 1NE of Fish) and Farm--a Grassland square next to a Lake that either Crabs or Grt Person Farm can use
Move Worker 6 NE PCow and Pasture
Move Galley 1 to 1E of the improved Clam
Move Worker 4 onto Galley 1 (1E of the improved Clam)

T169 (65 BC)
Riverdale: Whip the Confucian Missionary (growth in 1 turn)
Riverdale: work the 1NW GRiv Irr, NW + W GRiv Cot
Riverdale: Queue up a Confucian Missionary
Grt Person Farm: Whip the Work Boat (growth in 1 turn)
Grt Person Farm: work the GPig
Unload Worker 4 from Galley 1 onto the land area to the north
WAKE Warrior 1 (in Risaia) and move him 1NW G (with the plan to send him to the west on a Galley to explore the nearest neighbour's area)
Move Galley 1 W, W (1N of Three Clams)
Move Worker 5 to the GH NE + N of Delhi and Mine/Stop
Move Galley 2 to 1N of the PWheat

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Too dangerous. Until we have buddhism Sal and Toku are annoyed with us. Unless we can garrison that city with strong units, it will be in danger.

Although I have mixed feelings about the issue, BLubz does have a valid point.

By being on the same continent as an AI, we will be subject to more chances for them to declare war on us in the war declaration algorithm. I don't have a link to the thread, but there is a thread (actually, I think it was a message by Niklas in the SGOTM 7 thread and then later DanF and someone else were talking more about the subject in a different thread) that talks about how some types of wars are only applicable to players being on the same continent as an AI.

So, indeed, we would increase our chances of being declared upon by settling on their continent. I don't actually fear that fact--what I fear more is that both of them are pretty buddy-buddy with each other, with Toku being Pleased with Saladin (that is barely enough for Toku to be bribed into war) and Saladin being Friendly with Toku (that is barely enough for Saladin to be bribed into a war). One AI at a time, I think that we can handle. Two at a time would be too rough, plus it would mean that they would get positive Diplo modifiers with each other for the Shared War.

Settling closer to Sal and Toku will help us get Buddhism, right?

However, this point has me torn, because it does hold weight. Being closer to the Buddhist Holy City will increase our chances of random spread, while being on the same continent as the Buddhist Founder will greatly increase our chances of Missionary-spread.

I have ONCE seen Hinduism spread from overseas into a City that already had a religion. I didn't have "View Friendly Moves" enabled, so I wasn't able to tell if it was an AI Caravel/Galleon that came in and out of view on the same turn, or if it was a very rare chance to actually receive a religion "for free" in a City where there already was a religion.

Basically, what I am getting at is that it is so rare as to not be at all probable in our game.

So, I would say let's hedge our bets: we have 4 Cities that can get Buddhism spreading "for free." Once three (and for surely once all four) are filled up with non-Buddhist religions, we'll send a Settler over to the Toku/Saladin continent and even be willing to settle an Iceball City, as long as it has either:
a) a Seafood Resource
OR
b) a Mine that isn't a Tundra, Ice, or Desert Mine

Basically, we need SOME form of production in the City, otherwise snagging Buddhism won't be sufficient for us to build Missionaries and spread it to the other AIs in the game.

No, i think trying settling E is our best option.

I don't know if it will be our best or worst, as I can't predict the layout of the land in the hidden squares, but I would say that it would be our SAFEST option.


Parthenon

And i agree with Irgy-the-viper. The parthenon risks to be a waste of hammers.

Just to play Devil's Advocate (because we all love it when I do that!!!

), I wonder if it could be worth it to build it in Delhi.

No, hang on here. More GPP. We need 4 Great People for the end. Surely, 4 Great Artists will be easier for us to save than if we try to save 4 Great Engineers "oh, come on, please let's just rush-build XXX Wonder, come on, please..." I can hear the arguments for and against saving those Great Engineers already. But, if we end up with relatively useless Great Artists, I don't think that we will have much of a fight to save them!


Consider the following: the Fur is not in our immediate area. Even if it is not VERY far, we still need to be aware of the logistical issue at the end of the game: it will take time to ferry 8 units to the Fur (4 Warriors plus 4 Great People) plus some additonal defenders (ummm, Warriors don't make for very good defenders). So, let's say 12 units, or 4 Galleons with 3 units in each of them. We might even need to consider either extra Galleons or somehow getting Frigates--if an AI grabs Chemistry and goes for Privateers, we could have our fleet sunk before our very eyes!


Now, the fact that I am going to build an Archer and then a Settler in Delhi is already delaying the Hagia Sophia, so I really won't have much time for The Parthenon.

But, I am at least getting a Confucian Missionary, so Bedrock might have a fair chance at building it. Most of the AIs do not prioritize that Wonder, anyway, and I would be surprised if it was built prior to 400 AD by an AI.


Anyway, as long as we don't lose both of our Galleys to Barb Galleys, Bedrock won't have much else to do after building a Granary.


Risaia is our planned Military pump City. GPF and Three Clams are going to try and get their relevant buildings, grow, and run Specialists. But other than for those first 2 Galleys, we don't really need Bedrock to do much else for a while, so I might just try for The Parthenon there, anyway. Failure Gold with Marble + Organized Religion bonuses is a good way to fuel our tech pace, as well.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Leveraging Police State--Hey, we built The Pyramids, we might as well use Police State, right?!

Risaia is our planned Military pump City.

Technically, if we don't care about promotions from a Barracks, we could switch into Police State for a while, too, and build Military units from multiple Cities for 5 turns. If we get a religion widespread enough, even switching into Theocracy for the same time period could make up for a lack of Barracks.


In fact, maybe I should even reconsider my plans and see if I can swap Civics into Police State for a bit when I am building the second Galley and the Archer, since we aren't really running Specialists anywhere and we should have sufficient Happiness to temporarily forego the Representation Happiness bonus.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

SGOTM Progress Graphs and how we shape up against the Competition

BTW, i've seen we're deadly last in score and power in the SG graphs and even on culture we're in the middle of the pack now.

Low Power is meaningless the way that we are playing. We are unable to keep a high enough Power Ratio to deter that reason for an AI declaring war on us.

So, they will pass the "more Powerful" check, regardless of whether we have our current number of units or if we build 15 more Archers (only Zara might be scared off by that threat, and probably not for long since he has Monarchy and could go for Feudalism at any time).

Thus, we are actually employing our strategy VERY EFFECTIVELY if our Power Level is the lowest of all of the teams.


Score, well... score is nice. Usually, it relates to your population. We got off to a very slow start, but in so doing, we actually pulled off the most brilliant part of our strategy: we didn't set up BOTH a Hindu block and a Buddhist block, where one of them would have to be attacked. Instead, we monopolized enough religions (at the sacrifice of a productive empire at the start of the game) such that later (i.e. now) we aren't having to prepare for War like most of the other teams appear to be doing.

As long as we have similar HORIZONTAL growth (i.e. still build a lot of Cities), we can make up for the lack of VERTICAL growth (higher-population Cities) with time. It's only if we don't have enough horizontal growth will we have to go to war.


Culture being lower than some other teams... who cares? Likely, a couple of teams built Stonehenge, because they were too lazy to found religions. And, likely, they are sticking with No State Religion as too many AIs have differing religions from each other, so they are missing out on the Religious Civic bonuses.

As long as we have SUFFICIENT culture to meet our needs (i.e. enough to stop Zara from culturally-flipping our eastern Cities), then our TOTAL Culture has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on how well we are doing in this game.


So, only the Score being low really sucks, and because we have achieved a lot of horizontal growth (and we'll get a ton more during my turnset), this low Score value will be something for which we can compensate later.


Will we beat Plastic Ducks if they manage to successfully leverage their huge Power to capture a ton of land in the world? Maybe. They still need a Diplo vote to win. They take a big risk by declaring war on AIs or by vassalizing them, in that they might not get enough votes to win at the end of the game.

Certainly, war-based Gold from City capturing and/or pillaging is a great way to fund your Science, but don't forget that they also have to play a balanced game like the rest of us, saving 4 Great People at the end, having the SAME Religion in EACH ONE of their Cities (a punishment for capturing a lot of Cities), and having all of the AIs running a religion (which will be easier for us to do, since AIs that would normally switch to Free Religion will be very hesitant to do so if most of the world remains Buddhist).

So, the game's settings work in our favour for a lot of these points, helping to balance the normally-strong play of going for a Diplomation game with a lot of extra conditions and hoops that such a team would have to jump through that will be relatively trivial-to-meet conditions for our strategy.


On a humourous note, we're well ahead in the Team Thread Messages count and we seem to be pulling away from the competition on a steady basis! We've even just barely scraped into 20th place in the SGOTM Threads in terms of the number of Thread Views' Ranking. Only one other Fifth Element SGOTM game is higher (SGOTM 7), and after a couple of weeks, we'll likely be beating it in the rankings, too!

One Short Straw is our closest competitor, with not that many Thread Views behind our total count. The race is on!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Tech Trades

I suggest posting a full PPP with "planned" trades.

Well, my comment can only be a tentative one for now, but let's assume that I am able to leverage Currency in order to grab either Construction or Calendar.

I will then be potentially able to trade BOTH Currency plus that other tech to get a different tech from a different AI, or to trade one of them plus some Gold (or plus some partial research) in order to snag something else.

So, in other words, I will not hesitate to "tech broker"--i.e. to sell off any techs that I received in trade. If a non-Friendly AI is willing to sell us a tech, they'll sell it to someone else willingly, too, so I might as well be just as liberal with giving away those techs for whatever I can get, even for a pitiance (60 Gold plus some "Traded Fairly" positive Diplo modifiers from the last AI that doesn't have the tech beats getting nothing for it).