SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

Interesting. Well, we may be able to get Construction from Zara in 3 turns, right?

I say trade Currency to Sal for Calendar. I'm fine with giving it to Tokugawa as well.

How the heck did Izzy become Hindu? Strange. We need to be sure that she doesn't wipe Zara out of the game... I wonder if we should try to convert Izzy to Buddhism or just leave her as Hindu? Either way, she won't be voting for Zara, but we may not get her vote either.

Nice work getting 6 gold/turn from the Buddhist block.

Couldn't Justinian get Alphabet from one of his friends before we get a chance to sell it to him?
 
To Summarize my Plans:
Trade Currency + 5 Gold to Saladin for Calendar

Gift Currency to Tokugawa and hope that it's enough to get him to Pleased
If Toku is Pleased, Open Borders with Toku
If Toku is Pleased, see what we can get in trade from him Resource-wise: The team preference seems to be to give away Stone before Silver, so that's what I'll trade if he has something useful to offer us (hello, Ivory?!?!?!)
If Toku is Pleased, once he offers up some Gold (more than 10 Gold--I don't want to demand 100% of his Gold--that usually fails--so, once he has more than 10 Gold to offer I can "politely request" that he "return" some (but definitely not all) of said Gold, in exchange for having "given him too much" when we gave him Currency.

I will NOT Open Borders with Isabella
I will NOT perform any Resource Trades with Isabella
Spoiler :
If we do either of these trades with Isabella, then eventually, we may be asked to cancel them. She becomes a really whiny jerk when it comes to conflicting religions, so she'll likely make enemies fast--with an Open Borders deal with Zara and with Justinian making his way through our Borders, the two will be soon to meet. Also, we want to keep Borders Closed with Isabella to prevent our Domestic Religions spreading. Only IF and WHEN we have a unit ready to map out her lands will we be likely to take on the risks of Opening Borders with her, but FIRST we have to FIND her territory. It could be that she travelled through an inter-connected series of islands halfway across the map just to find us; there is no point stirring up trouble until the last minute (i.e. when we find her Borders and want to enter them). ;)


I will continue to keep an eye out for Tech Trades and Resource Trades on each turn.
 

Attachments

By the way, does this change our plans for settling east? I don't think we want to be Izzy's land target or get between her and Zara...
 
Alert: Advanced Player Trading Tactic
Couldn't Justinian get Alphabet from one of his friends before we get a chance to sell it to him?
Here's an interesting thing about the AIs:
They shun their least-knowledgeable contact.
That least-knowledge contact will always struggle to catch up, because tech trades are not possible with said AI if all of the others are smarter than said AI.

So, as long as Justinian stays the "least knowledgeable" of all of the AIs that both Saladin and Tokugawa know, neither of Saladin nor Toku will trade techs with Justinian.

All bets are off when techs are "equalized"--i.e. if we "traded up" Justinian to an equal status, then he wouldn't be the "less knowledgeable brother" anymore and the three of them would trade with each other liberally until a new "less knowledgeable contact" was chosen for each of them.

Since they all know Zara, that could turn out to be Zara, and then the 3 Buddhists could run away with the tech game, trading with each other.

So, it is to our advantage to keep Justinian relatively "less knowledgeable," to the point that if we make a trade with Justinian, we might want to gift a tech or two to Zara.

We'll have to be careful to check for Worst Enemy Status before trading, though--if someone sees Zara as being their Worst Enemy, which could happen over time as the negative Heathen Diplo modifier kicks in.

For now, as you can see in the screenshot that I provided, no one is "Annoyed" or "Furious" with anyone else, so no Worst Enemy currently exists between any of them. Once we start to see "Annoyed" relations, you'll very quickly see the Worst Enemy situation starting to develop, at which point we may just be forced to keep Zara technologically backwards, as he'll likely be shunned by the Buddhists.

Then again, if Isabella meets them, we could trade with Zara, but then Isabella would just take his place as the "least knowledgeable," defeating the purpose of her becoming the Worst Enemy (other than the fact that we could maintain Open Borders with Zara due to AIs only demanding us to stop trading with Isabella instead of Zara).


Basically, from this point onwards, the Diplo situation gets more complex and each trading decision can have a HUGE impact on the world's opinion of our Civ (and of their opinions of each other).
 
By the way, does this change our plans for settling east? I don't think we want to be Izzy's land target or get between her and Zara...
We can need a base in the East. We have 2 war declarations. 1 can be with Izzy.
This enforces our plans to settling E, IMO.
 
By the way, does this change our plans for settling east? I don't think we want to be Izzy's land target or get between her and Zara...
I've only just started to explore westward, but I can see the borders of one of Saladin's Cities, so he has the closest City to us. It could be a distantly-founded City, with another AI's main territory being closer to us, but we'll find out soon enough.

Anyway, all I revealed was Saladin's City and some Desert. So, settling that way doesn't look promising at all.

I'm still willing to head eastward with our 2nd Settler Party (the first one going to the land to the north).

While we can temporarily be on good terms with the Buddhists, we'll need Confucianism for a bit longer (Hagia Sophia, anyone?), and as I already discussed, sneaking a City near them (which would be on the same land mass as at least one of Saladin's Cities--the others may or may not be on the same land mass) could make us "pass" a lot more "declare war" checks.

I'd rather that Isabella or Zara declare war on us, as it seems that they have no real "allies" to support them in a war. A war one-at-a-time will be manageable; a war with multiple AIs is not a situation that I look forward to.


Eventually, once our 3 western Cities plus whatever else we settle, either get Buddhism or don't get it, we'll know if we'll have to put a City on the same land mass as Saladin, which we'll probably want to do at a time when we don't need the Organized Religion bonus and can switch into No State Religion for a little while.
 
We can need a base in the East. We have 2 war declarations. 1 can be with Izzy.
This enforces our plans to settling E, IMO.

Out of curiosity, why do we NEED a base in the East. This game gets 1000% easier if once we get Buddhism. If we never get it, which could happen, we'll have a bit of a struggle.

In any event, let's see what Dhoomstriker reveals. We need to get to Sugar Island before an AI gets there. If Sal had a settler party headed our way, the other AI will as well.

Dhoomstriker, have you noticed if anyone has dye, silk or ivory? Or fur???

EDIT: I see Toku has ivory, but can't see if he has anything else. He has a ton of resources. He must have awesome land. I wonder if the other teams are gearing up for war against Toku...
 
Are you guys okay with me playing forward? Does anyone have any objections?

I think that BLubz wants to see the land around the Sugar before he goes to bed...
:goodjob: i can wait max 30 minutes from now. Thanks to thinking at me.

Go on!
 
T165 (125 BC) continued
In between turns, it seems that a Forest grew to the SE of Delhi
We picked up Calendar from Saladin, as planned, which is a tech that "places" our Civ's relative location on the world map. It appears that we are in the southern part of the world--not a great spot for building the Space Elevator, but building that would obsolete Fur and Ivory anyway, so no worries!
Saladin is more than happy to accept Currency, and in fact is so happy that he is now Pleased with us! Success!!!
He also immediately finds 30 Gold that he had hidden in his back pocket, of which I grab a small portion for an agreement not to declare war on each other for 10 turns
Warrior 8 lands next to the Sugar and spots no Barb units
Since there is only Jungle in the immediately-surrounding squares, it would take a 3-movement Barb unit (even Mech Infantry only have 2 movement points) to be able to attack us, so I offload the Settler onto the same square
Bedrock whips Galley #2
We start Camping the Deer!

T166 (110 BC)
Sorry, I got so excited about the Deer that I forgot to keep trading with Toku last turn...
Opened Borders with Toku
Traded Stone to Toku for Gold

T167 (95 BC)
We still don't see new Trade Routes with the AIs to the west, so my Work Boat keeps pushing westward to see if we can address that situation
The tech situation is still the same... only Saladin and Toku know Construction as the techs that we don't know, and neither will trade it to us
Three Clams is also now Christian (which could be okay, because we'll likely build The Apostolic Palace using this Religion, but it's still not as great as getting Buddhism would have been)

Please see the following screenshot for the land around the Sugar:
Spoiler :
attachment.php


Please see the following screenshot to get an idea of what the land to the west looks like--Desert and Ice--but at least there is a Crab there that COULD POTENTIALLY get a City, but doing so would seriously anger Saladin due to overlapping borders:
Spoiler :
attachment.php



I think that I will stop play here for a while, so that we can get feedback on settling the Sugar area. I plan to call the City "Sugar Daddy," unless there are any objections or better suggestions.
 

Attachments

  • Sugar_Daddy_Lands.jpg
    Sugar_Daddy_Lands.jpg
    205.6 KB · Views: 92
  • Western_Exploration.jpg
    Western_Exploration.jpg
    152.5 KB · Views: 94
Nice work.

I'm thinking that we want to settle Sugar Daddy where the settler is right now. 2 sugars, 3 hills and fish. Not bad. Plus, we just learned Calendar, so we can get access to sugar once we chop all of that darned jungle...

Regarding Saladin, I really think we need to risk pissing him off to get Buddhism. Just like Three Clams, our other on-continent cities have a better chance of getting our own religions spread to them due to proximity to holy cities...
 
Ivory
Oh yes, I almost forgot... I wasn't able to trade for Ivory with Toku (the Resource was redded out, but I forget the exact reason that he gave). Presumably, we will have to get Toku to Friendly status before that can happen.

Well, what do you know? We plan to share a religion with him (well, that is the plan, anyway)! Hopefully, a shared Religion will be enough to net us this one of 4 "Crucial Resources." If so, we will be "one up" on the other teams, who may feel forced into declaring war on Toku.
 
IMO, the city has to go where the settler is in the screenie.
Enough food and hammers.

At this point, the fish+incense city is doubious.

Unless you have more news, i think next stop would be once we discover what is that land East.

Can you delete all the signs for the cities? they've done their job, now.
 
Regarding Saladin, I really think we need to risk pissing him off to get Buddhism. Just like Three Clams, our other on-continent cities have a better chance of getting our own religions spread to them due to proximity to holy cities...
As I said before, that'll be in the plan if all of our other Cities (or when all of our other Cities minus one) fail to pick up Buddhism... the reason why we'd start planning at all Cities minus one would be because then our chances would already be really low and we might as well put the plan into action.

Until then, there is always hope! :)
 
Unless you have more news, i think next stop would be once we discover what is that land East.
Fair enough. Also, if we meet the last AI or if we encounter an AI demand.

I'll have to spend some time detailing out more steps in the PPP, and I'd like to do so before playing any further. I think that I'll mostly stick to Worker actions and City builds in the PPP.


Can you delete all the signs for the cities? they've done their job, now.
Okay, I can do so.

Eventually, though, once my turnset is up, I may have to litter the map with little signs just to tell people where to put Roads and which squares would take precedence for improvements like Farms.

Things could get messy, but I don't see a better way around things... although we will have more Worker turns, we won't have INFINITE Worker turns, so a minimalistic but complete Road network is preferable to one built by several different players each with their own plans of which way to build the Road, leading to lots of "Roads to nowhere." :lol:
 
I just thought of something. Tokugawa has 10 cities already and a ton of resources. His cities are going to be huge. How in the world will we be number 1 in population once we gift the UN to Zara? Something to think about...
 
First in Population Ideas
I just thought of something. Tokugawa has 10 cities already and a ton of resources. His cities are going to be huge. How in the world will we be number 1 in population once we gift the UN to Zara? Something to think about...
Well, Toku currently has about 2.5 times our population. We can hope that he's already maxed out his population space!

Build farms, farms, and more farms...

The first player to Astronomy may be the first to undiscovered land...

Sugar Daddy puts us on an equal "horizontal" expansion with Toku, with 10 Cities of our own. That's my point--if we can get enough horizontal expansion, we can worry about the vertical growth of those Cities' population points later on. Keep building Settlers and find every scrap of spare land and settle it...

Spies can pillage Resources, disrupting Toku's Resource trades...

Fish + Incense City may save the day!
 
Nice turn set so far Dhoomstriker. Good to have you running the one where we meet all (well, all bar one anyway) of the AIs.

No sign of dye and silk yet then? I guess not all the AIs we've met have Calendar yet though.

Is Biology part of our tech path? I think it's worth the detour. If we're desperate for pop it opens up Medicine for sushi, although that much of a detour will start to really hurt our victory date I'd imagine.

There's a lot of work to do spreading Buddhism, I'd be inclined to settle the cruddy ice crab site quite soon. I don't think it will actually get us over any of the thresholds for shared borders affecting relations. There's two thresholds from what I remember - the diplo penalty for close-border-tensions, and the 7 (I think?) adjacent borders for higher DOW chance. Once we have buddhism, we can potentially then get another aid to our diplo plans by donating the city back to him.
 
Other "Special" Resources and a Lack of the Calendar Tech for many of the AIs
No sign of dye and silk yet then? I guess not all the AIs we've met have Calendar yet though.
Only Saladin and Toku have Calendar of the AIs that we have met, so nothing conclusive on that front.

Still, with Toku having Ivory, I would not be surprised to see two additional AIs other than Toku having the Resources that we need (preventing any one SGOTM team from just declaring war twice to get all of the required Resources). That's IF the AIs settled where the game designer planned for them to settle... :mischief:


Biology
Is Biology part of our tech path?
Not officially, no. It is quite a ways off of the beaten path, requiring Engineering, Gunpowder, and Chemistry, in addition to the already-planned-to-be-researched Scientific Method, before we can start to research Biology.

Chances are that the AIs will research Gunpowder, but would they be willing to trade us such a military tech? Maybe if we finally get Buddhism within our borders...

We can't really count on Lightbulbing these additional techs, either, as we'll need to save our Great People for the end of the game.

We should not need Biology to increase our voting count, like you might in a normal game. We just need sufficient population to be the largest Civ population-wise near the end of the game. Which just really comes down to having sufficient land.

A lot of our Cities will be half-coastal, so Biology won't necessarily add that much in terms of growth (say, an average of 4 to 5 Food per City per turn for what... 10 turns? How long do you want to delay our victory after researching Biology?).


I'm not totally against going for it, but I'd rather not chase after it until after we get Mass Media and only expect to get it if we can trade for a lot of its pre-requisites, minus maybe Chemistry being self-researched.


I've tested out Diplo games of Biology vs non-Biology and the non-Biology games always win out, because you can always be crafty in the way that you manipulate the votes and the extra time that you get is huge, allowing you to fail maybe two or three votes and still beat a date where you first beeline Biology. Unless we were playing on Deity and the AIs were helping you to tech a lot of the techs, we won't be able to expect much help in terms of getting the right techs in trade when we'd need them for a proper beeline to Biology.


If we're desperate for pop it opens up Medicine for sushi,
While Sid's Sushi is tempting, by the time that we can finally research the tech for it, we're still only going to see the benefit in one single City, unless we start pop-rushing Executives, which kind of defeats the purpose of trying to quickly increase your overall populatoin points. Yes, your whipped population points would grow back over time and over time you'd get more population, but the time investment will drag the game out almost to a Space Victory time... way too late for us to be competitive.


I'm afraid that if we can't be #1 in population, we'll just have to take our chances against the #2 in the vote.

If we keep Toku out of Theocracy and if we get the positive bonuses for trading that he doesn't, say, by using Spies to destroy his trading deals and then with him being an AI and not seeing the value of "giving away techs just to be better liked," we will still have a chance over the course of several votes to win the game with a respectable date.


More Settlers
There's a lot of work to do spreading Buddhism, I'd be inclined to settle the cruddy ice crab site quite soon.
Okay, so it sounds like I will have to figure out from where I can spawn more Settlers.

Grt Person Farm isn't where I really want to build them, since we want to get that City to complete its required buildings and growing ASAP, so that it can turn around and start generating Great People for us.

Delhi, although I'm going to build 1 Settler there, really should stop building the Settlers.

Wheaties is going to be busy, and I've tentatively written Bedrock off to potentially build a Wonder (The Parthenon, Shwegadon Paya, or whatever).

Silverado and Riverdale are out, as both have too small of a Food surplus and hardly enough Hammers--both Cities currently have more of a Commerce-based focus and thus are poorly-suited as Settler-building Cities.

So, I guess we'll have to get Three Clams and Crab City building a couple of Settlers the "slow, hard way" soon. The plan will be to switch into Caste System soon, pop the borders, and then whip another Work Boat each, after which they can build Lighthouses, and then finally Settlers. That's a while off, but it's probably the best that we've got.

We could also just choose to "not complete" the Lighthouses or perhaps better, could aim to Forest chop them, so that we'd get their bonus Food (which would boost Settler production by a reasonable margin) without immediately shrinking the Cities' Sizes just prior to starting on Settlers.


Once we have buddhism, we can potentially then get another aid to our diplo plans by donating the city back to him.
That's a fair point, but I think that we'll probably even try and keep a Crab-based Iceball City unless we'll be certain that we can get to be the #1 population Civ without it.
 
Back
Top Bottom