SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Justy has "we could not betray our close friends" on the "stop trading with" section.
He's not trading with Mehmed and his hands are full. Can he be his target? Live (no less than 10 turns) and see.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

One more thing: did you remember to Cancel Open Borders with Zara? Did you also remember to cancel the Wheat deal and instead negotiate a Pig deal with Zara?

I ask because if you did not do so, then Toku can still Demand that we Cancel Trades with Zara. Now would be a good time to do those things if you haven't done so already...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Justy has "we could not betray our close friends" on the "stop trading with" section.
He's not trading with Mehmed and his hands are full. Can he be his target? Live (no less than 10 turns) and see.

Justinian got his hands full before he had met Mehmed, so no, unfortunately, Mehmed is not Justinian's war target.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Justy has "we could not betray our close friends" on the "stop trading with" section.

Most AIs will refuse to stop trading with someone if they are Cautious or higher in Attitude with them.

Toku is an exception (since he dislikes trading) and will only refuse to stop trading with someone if he is Pleased or higher in Attitude with them.

 

[BLubmuz]

We'll take whatever we can get at this point.

If it IS a Great Artist, we DO have the option of triggering a Golden Age. Since you plan to continue to run a lot of Specialists, it could work.

We will only get 1 Golden Age in this whole game, though, so make sure that if you do use it up, you do your best to stay in our current Civics and continue to run a lot of Specialists.

Are you suggesting me to launch a GAge in my TS?
True that only another active member is around those days.
True that this can be the best moment to max the specialists GPP output. The moment when we need the most. GS, possibly.

Of course only if i got a GE or a GA. GS have other uses, right? And a GE is enough for the UN, i think.
Unless we diverge for Nationalism and use the GE for the Taj. The diversion can be worth if we have a GE to launch a GAge. And we deny it to our opponents.

 

[BLubmuz]

One more thing: did you remember to Cancel Open Borders with Zara? Did you also remember to cancel the Wheat deal and instead negotiate a Pig deal with Zara?

I ask because if you did not do so, then Toku can still Demand that we Cancel Trades with Zara. Now would be a good time to do those things if you haven't done so already...

THe first thing i did. Unfortunately Irgy left many units in "go-to" mode, so i wasn't able to move certain units as i would have. not a great loss, anyway.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Are you suggesting me to launch a GAge in my TS?

I am suggesting that it is possible to do if we get a Great Artist.

True that this can be the best moment to max the specialists GPP output. The moment when we need the most. GS, possibly.

This point almost makes me think that it would be a good idea if it is a Great Artist.

But, I don't want to use up a Great Scientist or a Great Engineer on a Golden Age. A 2nd Great Engineer can either give us Taj Mahal if we can trade for Nationalism in time or it can give us the freedom to build The UN in a Size 1 City anywhere in the world. So, a Great Engineer is too valuable to use up spawning a Golden Age.

Great Scientists are the Great People that we are currently trying to collect, so it would be a bit silly to use one just to try and get another Great Scientist.

Unless we diverge for Nationalism and use the GE for the Taj.

I do not think that we would need to diverge for Nationalism, but we could get it in trade. Certainly, Saladin and Justinian both favour Military Tradition, which means that they would have to research Nationalism "on the way there."

And we deny it to our opponents.

To be honest, it is okay if an AI gets the Taj Mahal's Golden Age. The AIs tend to do a very poor job of using Golden Ages and they will get a lot of them anyway (a lot of AIs save up their Great People to use on Golden Ages).

So, no, I would not change our tech path, but if we do get a Great Engineer, I would save him.

 

[BLubmuz]

Now, since you approved my previous choices, i hit enter.
Toku voted no, but Mehmed defied the resolution.

Now Zara is in danger, true danger. Toku has only 2 galleys to unload, i think he lost one.
And probably he loaded them before Samurais and Knights.

IBT Sal asked for 160 gold. I accepted. Clearly this is not my game.
I think it's not worth to run binary research to see our money go to the AI.

This makes over 300 gold lost. S**T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And we received a GE. S**T!!!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Toku voted no, but Mehmed defied the resolution.

Well, that situation really sucks.

Let's think about what we can do about it...
If Zara will Open Borders with us again, we can gift him a unit or two. But if not, we can't really help him out directly.

We can consider bribing Toku to stop the war if it appears that Toku gets the upper hand. The cost will be pretty high, though, probably all of our techs, World Map, and Gold... maybe less, maybe more (if it is more, he will not even offer that option).

I guess we can just watch and see what happens on each turn and see if Zara is going to win or not.

So, do not pay Toku to stop the war. Not yet, anyway.

Toku has only 2 galleys to unload, i think he lost one.

That's a relief. I am more interested in what the Land Units look like, though.

What I would suggest that for each turn, you tell us:
1. Which Land Units Toku has in Zara's land.
2. Which Land Units Zara has defending any City that has Toku's units next to said City.

If Zara does a good job of defending, then it will be a stalemate and the war will end without a Master-Vassal relationship.

If Zara loses a City and cannot recapture it within 1 to 2 turns, I would bet on Toku vassalizing Zara.

And probably he loaded them before Samurais and Knights.

Toku did not have access to Civil Service at the start of your turnset, so he definitely did not load up any Samurais.

Irgy mentioned that Toku learned Guilds near the end of his turnset, so I would also believe that we would see Horse Archers in place of Knights.

IBT Sal asked for 160 gold. I accepted. Clearly this is not my game.

Are you KIDDING me? That news is GREAT NEWS!

That buys us Peace with Saladin during a vulnerable time in our empire and a +1 Diplo bonus with him so that we can keep running Confucianism for a while. Running Confucianism right now, when we have a lot of Confucian Religious buildings, for 5 extra turns is worth more than 160 Gold.

I think it's not worth to run binary research to see our money go to the AI.

On the contrary, it is better to give them gifts smaller than 200 Gold. In the final analysis, that's a very small amount of money. I would gladly pay that price per +1 Relationship point.

If we don't have any Gold to offer, the AIs will end up being forced to Demand our Techs. Would you rather give them 160 Gold or Paper? I'd pick the Gold, wouldn't you?

This makes over 300 gold lost.

How else did we lose money besides from Saladin's Demand for 160 Gold?

And we received a GE.

Well, we'll just have to hang onto him for now. All is not lost. It can possibly give us Taj Mahal after Justinian and Saladin learn Nationalism.

Plus, it means that if Toku manages to vassalize Zara, then any of Mehmed's Cities can get The UN within a 1-turn time period, while we would still keep all of the votes that Riverdale can give to us.

 

[Irgy]

It should only have been the units moving to the barb-city with gotos? The plan is still to send those that way isn't it?

Here's the test save. It's not quite right, but it's as close as I can figure out. I've whipped too many times in Riverdale and Bedrock in this test, and not enough times in Risaia. The workers also seemed to be ever so slightly ahead in this test of where they were in the real game, not sure why that would be. I might have just remembered it wrong though.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

It should only have been the units moving to the barb-city with gotos? The plan is still to send those that way isn't it?

There was for sure a Spearman headed for Riverdale that was using a Goto command, as well as a Longbowman near Bedrock.

I think that the Spearman was the unit that BLubz was complaining about, as he wanted to send it west (towards Saladin's area) on his first turn in case Justinian attacked us.

Here's the test save.

Better late than never! Thank you!

I've whipped too many times in Riverdale and Bedrock in this test, and not enough times in Risaia. The workers also seemed to be ever so slightly ahead in this test of where they were in the real game, not sure why that would be. I might have just remembered it wrong though.

Eh? So does that mean that production levels, City size levels, and the amount of buildings built do not match up? Is there any way for you to correct these items? The Worker actions we can change--we can World Build in a Worker if we are behind and then delete that Worker and we can "Skip a turn" of a Worker if we are ahead, but there is no easy way to update the Cities. It really would be preferred if you could make it so that the Cities' builds, Food levels, etc were accurate.

 

[BLubmuz]

Turn 237.
I noticed (just a flash) 2 jap units unload and be wiped by Zara. I think they could have been cats or axes. Our barb task force can see jap musketmen. Fresh.

Justy galleys are still heading East.

Dehli is only 2 turns away from a GP. Bets?

I will burn anyone is not a GE or a GA on a GAge.

Test game
I think that with almost all the improvements built it ceases to be useful.
Too many variables outside our control now.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Eh? So does that mean that production levels, City size levels, and the amount of buildings built do not match up? Is there any way for you to correct these items? The Worker actions we can change--we can World Build in a Worker if we are behind and then delete that Worker and we can "Skip a turn" of a Worker if we are ahead, but there is no easy way to update the Cities. It really would be preferred if you could make it so that the Cities' builds, Food levels, etc were accurate.

If you over-whipped, you'll have to go back to a previous saved game.

If you under-whipped, you can always whip some more into a unit and then delete the unit, to get the whipping anger correct. You can then use the World Builder to play through the last 5+ turns by putting down extra Corn Farms, Iron Mines, etc, to balance a City's values, deleting the Resources at the end.

One round of test saved game updating made me play through more than 46 times just to get things accurate, including getting Zara to research the correct techs, as well as adding Gem Mines on Zara's Coasts and our Coasts, to make up for a lack of Trade Route income. I even used temporary Security Bureaus to get our Espionage points more accurate, etc.

The most important part that we want to see accurate in the test saved game is where the Cities are in terms of Food, Hammers, buildings, and preferably, whipping anger, so I really hope that you can get this stuff worked out.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Turn 237.
I noticed (just a flash) 2 jap units unload and be wiped by Zara. I think they could have been cats or axes. Our barb task force can see jap musketmen. Fresh.

Well, our ULTIMATE preference would be for:
1. Zara to hold Toku at bay
2. Toku to give up his attack on Zara and declare Peace
3. Us to switch to Buddhism
4. Us to bribe Toku to declare war on Mehmed

If we have to pay Toku to stop the war, we might not have enough techs left to get him to start the war against Mehmed, so he might just declare war on Zara again when he has better units.

Justy galleys are still heading East.

How many turns until they can enter Zara's borders?

Dehli is only 2 turns away from a GP. Bets?

Great Scientist.

I will burn anyone is not a GE or a GA on a GAge.

Do you mean "not a GE or a GS"? Because we shouldn't burn a GS.

 

[BLubmuz]

turn 238
this time i haven't seen the unload. There's a severely damaged jap Xbow and cat near Lallibela. And a severely damaged LB and chariot defending. I don't understand why Zara keeps his triremes in port. 4 of them would be enough to block any invasion.

Sal will trade Optics but we can offer only paper.
I know 'cuase i switched to Compass before complete PP.

turn 239
I don't care 'cause we can research Optics in one turn (tjhis one)
A GS is born in Dehli.
Next GPerson will born again in Dehli in 11 turns.

How many GS should i burn on Astro?

Zara wiped the Xbow, now there's just the same cat (0.5 health) but more galleys are in route.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

this time i haven't seen the unload. There's a severely damaged jap Xbow and cat near Lallibela. And a severely damaged LB and chariot defending.

Well, Zara's not out of the game YET. There's still some Cultural Defence on the City right?

I don't understand why Zara keeps his triremes in port. 4 of them would be enough to block any invasion.

Talk to Zara...
"Let's Discuss something else..."
"Why don't you attack..."

IF there a City in the list, pick the City, and he may move his boats. But, since we didn't see any of Mehmed's Cities, we might not be able to see anything.

HOWEVER, you could BUY Zara's World Map. Then try again if one of Mehmed's Cities appeared.

You can even try to buy Justinian's World Map to see if it shows one of Mehmed's Cities.

Sal will trade Optics but we can offer only paper...
I don't care 'cause we can research Optics in one turn (this one)

We cannot accept this trade. It sucks, but it would be better to self-tech Optics than to trade away Paper. At least with a lot of Scientists, plus with at least 1 AI knowing Optics (surely, more than 1 AI must know Optics if Saladin will trade it), we will get a discount on researching it ourselves.

Since Optics won't take that long to research, we're better off self-researching it after we learn Printing Press, if Paper is the only trading option that you have.

You can keep your eyes open for a different AI to offer us a different trade on Optics and then report the trading option available back to us before making the trade.

How many GS should i burn on Astro?

Zero. We're better off self-teching it. If an AI beats us to it, then we can trade partial research on Astronomy.

Zara wiped the Xbow, now there's just the same cat (0.5 health) but more galleys are in route.

Okay, I didn't realise that the info above was already out-of-date, but so far, so good, I guess.

 

[BLubmuz]

turn 240.
Optics learnt. Engineering is offered by Zara and Sal.

Paper is still our monopoly and oly Sal has Philo.
Mehmed does not even have the prerequisites for both.

Justy just adopted Bureau.

Time to renegotiate the deals with Zara.
What about offer pig and OB in the same deal?
Our galley with the LB and the worker gathered from Sugar is now heading to the barb island. A lot faster than wallking.

A GS can give us 2709 out of 4680 for Astro. I think it's enough.
No one knows Astro yet.

Now i stop, i'll finish tomorrow morning. In case of any event i will stop, inform and wait for input. This is not my game. Kill 'em, kill 'em all! great Erkon! Give in to demands... my gold? wait i got some lead... just a moment i will bring you personally. With a nice delegation bah

 

[Dhoomstriker]

turn 240.
Optics learnt.

Does that mean that we know Printing Press?

Now i stop, i'll finish tomorrow morning.

Can you upload the save to the server?

 

[BLubmuz]

Does that mean that we know Printing Press?
Can you upload the save to the server?

Sure, we do. Otherwise how can a GS bulb Astro? PP has always the priority.

Save uploaded. In-game log.

Spoiler :

Turn 231, 860 AD: Gandhi adopts Caste System!
Turn 231, 860 AD: Gandhi adopts Pacifism!
Turn 231, 860 AD: The borders of Mystic have expanded!

Turn 232, 870 AD: The borders of Three Clams have expanded!
Turn 232, 870 AD: Isabella adopts Caste System!

Turn 233, 880 AD: Tokugawa has declared war on Zara Yaqob!
Turn 233, 880 AD: Isabella has declared war on Mehmed II!

Turn 234, 890 AD: Charles Augustin de Coulomb (Great Engineer) has been born in Grt Person Farm (Gandhi)!
Turn 234, 890 AD: The borders of Crabs have expanded!
Turn 234, 890 AD: J. S. Bach (Great Artist) has been born in Kyoto (Tokugawa)!

Turn 237, 920 AD: You have discovered Compass!
Turn 237, 920 AD: Isabella has completed Chichen Itza!
Turn 237, 920 AD: William the Conqueror (Great General) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 238, 930 AD: Grt Person Farm has grown to size 10.
Turn 238, 930 AD: Tokugawa has 320 gold available for trade.
Turn 238, 930 AD: Saladin will trade Optics
Turn 238, 930 AD: Clearing a Forest has created 44 ? for Mystic.
Turn 238, 930 AD: Sugar Daddy will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 238, 930 AD: You have discovered Printing Press!
Turn 238, 930 AD: Euclid (Great Scientist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!
Turn 238, 930 AD: Jalaluddin Muhammad Akbar (Great General) has been born in Aksum (Zara Yaqob)!

Turn 239, 940 AD: Sugar Daddy has grown to size 6.
Turn 239, 940 AD: Isabella has 110 gold available for trade.
Turn 239, 940 AD: Zara Yaqob is the worst enemy of Mehmed II.
Turn 239, 940 AD: Saladin will trade Engineering
Turn 239, 940 AD: Zara Yaqob will trade Drama, Engineering
Turn 239, 940 AD: Risaia will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 239, 940 AD: Ivory Towers will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 239, 940 AD: Mystic will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 239, 940 AD: You have discovered Optics!
Turn 239, 940 AD: Justinian I adopts Bureaucracy!

Turn 240, 950 AD: Risaia has grown to size 7.
Turn 240, 950 AD: Ivory Towers has grown to size 6.
Turn 240, 950 AD: Mystic has grown to size 5.
Turn 240, 950 AD: Tokugawa has 330 gold available for trade.
Turn 240, 950 AD: Justinian I has 330 gold available for trade.
Turn 240, 950 AD: Zara Yaqob has 270 gold available for trade.
Turn 240, 950 AD: Mehmed II has 5 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 240, 950 AD: Zara Yaqob will trade Horseback Riding
Turn 240, 950 AD: Buddhism has spread in Mystic.
Turn 240, 950 AD: Buddhism has spread in Risaia.

As you can see i waited a bit to spread Buddhism. But i was successful. I also strted a monastery before the monk was autoremoved from quee, so we lost only a few hammers for the delay in the build. I'm afraid i forgot some MM and probably built a couple roads more than needed. All this switch from the game to the forum won't help my concentration.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Lightbulbing

A GS can give us 2709 out of 4680 for Astro. I think it's enough.

What is your Master Plan for Lightbulbing?

I outlined a very clear and specific Lightbulbing plan and accounted for many different possibilities.

However, not one of those suggestions had us Lightbulbing Astronomy and I think that it would be a tactical mistake to do so. Do you have a plan that says otherwise?

Justy just adopted Bureau.

Well, there goes our chance to trade Civil Service with him. Have you considered checking the tech screens on a turn-by-turn basis? Only the UP player can force themselves to rush through the turns, the AI cannot force you to hit End Turn. Have you ever tried to see what you would get in trade for a tech, to see if an AI is close to researching it? I try to do so every couple of turns.

What about offer pig and OB in the same deal?

We could do so but it probably wouldn't really help us at all.

On the other hand, if we ask for them separately, as it gives us the freedom to renegotiate either deal separately without having to cancel both deals at once. Remember that cancelling Open Borders means that the option to renegotiate Open Borders disappears for several turns.

So, if you want Open Borders with Zara, then I would say that you get Open Borders with him in a deal all by themselves. We still never really got in sufficient testing (that's where a test game would be useful) to see if an AI can ask you to Stop Trading with their Worst Enemy if you only have uncancellable deals on the table... if they can ask, then we'd for sure NOT want to Open Borders with Zara now. The problem is that we don't really know one way or the other at the moment.

Our galley with the LB and the worker gathered from Sugar is now heading to the barb island. A lot faster than wallking.

Ummmm that may be true but it loses us the flexibility of shuttling troops around near our homeland. It also leaves that Galley very vulnerable to both Barb Galleys and to Privateers.

I would strongly recommend that you drop the units off on Saladin's lands and then hide the Galley in Crabs.

Now i stop, i'll finish tomorrow morning.

Can you please give us a more accurate time? I will likely be unavailable during most of that time period, but if you give a precise timeframe, I can possible be available for a bit of that time.

In case of any event i will stop, inform and wait for input.

If you got my message to upload the game to the server, then I can provide input. If not, it's hard to get a good picture of the situation.

This is not my game. Kill 'em, kill 'em all! great Erkon! Give in to demands... my gold? wait i got some lead... just a moment i will bring you personally. With a nice delegation bah

You knew what the game conditions were going into the game. We'd have to play the "meak weaklings" even more if we played for a Cultural Victory. You don't have to like it, but giving into Demands is the way to Diplo Victory...