SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Dhoomstriker]

As you can see i waited a bit to spread Buddhism. But i was successful.

Great job!

I also strted a monastery before the monk was autoremoved from quee, so we lost only a few hammers for the delay in the build.

If you recall, BUFFY has a display issue with the number of Hammers on Epic Speed. You might even be able to change the value displayed in one of BUFFY's ten million options, but I don't know what option you would need to change.

Regardless, we probably did not lose any Hammers at all.

I'm afraid i forgot some MM and probably built a couple roads more than needed.

Well, we can't Pillage Roads, so let's just hope that they aren't on squares that could receive a Forest and aren't on our Strategic Resources.

All this switch from the game to the forum won't help my concentration.

Hopefully, the extra advice has been a worthwhile tradeoff in your eyes.

 

[Irgy]

If you over-whipped, you'll have to go back to a previous saved game.

If you under-whipped, you can always whip some more into a unit and then delete the unit, to get the whipping anger correct. You can then use the World Builder to play through the last 5+ turns by putting down extra Corn Farms, Iron Mines, etc, to balance a City's values, deleting the Resources at the end.

One round of test saved game updating made me play through more than 46 times just to get things accurate, including getting Zara to research the correct techs, as well as adding Gem Mines on Zara's Coasts and our Coasts, to make up for a lack of Trade Route income. I even used temporary Security Bureaus to get our Espionage points more accurate, etc.

The most important part that we want to see accurate in the test saved game is where the Cities are in terms of Food, Hammers, buildings, and preferably, whipping anger, so I really hope that you can get this stuff worked out.

You're right, but the trouble is it takes me all night just to run through once. If I have to run through 46 times I'll have it finished in September.

I'll have another go and try to at least get the food/hammers/whip unhappiness correct. I've written down the targets at least.

 

[BLubmuz]

Lightbulbing Astro.
No i don't have a plan, and i can't find yours. I remember to have read something, but can't remember what you said. I think that if we would stick to it, it's better you copy/paste in your answer, so i can copy/paste in page 1.

IMO, LB Astro gives us more flexibility on our Lib free tech.
Anyway, with paper still in monopoly and Islam to be yet founded, we should be safe for my TS.
In any case, i think that even if we researched almost all of Lib already, research Astro and SM the hard way takes too long.

Astro can give us also observatories (i can see 2-3 cities building them) and with all the Sci we're running they're a good investment.

So, i propose, very softly, to burn a GS on Astro, manually research SM and use Lib for Physics. Aiming to Elec or even Radio is a bit too risky. Anyway, seeing my motto, we probably have to take some risk.

Justy showed his lack of CS, but i could not know he was researching it. Since i (we) don't care to have HBR or Drama and he has not much money, i never opened the trade with him. I could have been interested if he showed Guilds, but he still lacks it.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I'll have another go and try to at least get the food/hammers/whip unhappiness correct. I've written down the targets at least.

Thank you.

Despite BLubz' assurances, I seriously think that Unclethrill is going to feel completely out of the loop unless we can hand him a test saved game.

If you get your portion reasonably accurate, then BLubz loses his excuse not to update it for his turnset.

Others on the team have worked hard to get you guys reasonably-accurate test saved games; now it's your turns to "earn" the privilege of getting to play the real game by maintaining our test saved game.

 

[BLubmuz]

You're right, but the trouble is it takes me all night just to run through once. If I have to run through 46 times I'll have it finished in September.

I'll have another go and try to at least get the food/hammers/whip unhappiness correct. I've written down the targets at least.

Irgy, take it easy about the test game.

As i said previously, it's not worth all the efforts and time we're putting on it at this stage.

My TS was more influenced by external and not controllable events, very difficult to reproduce even for a WB wizard like me.

Let's keep it as close as possible, just to have a test for MM and few more things.
But i think we must save our time for discussing strategies and for play the actual game.

Only 3 weeks to go.

 

[Irgy]

Hehe two very different responses there.

I think the balance is to give up on having the AIs correct and the economy beaker perfect - other than what we can fix quickly in worldbuilder of course, but to keep the city food/pop/hammers correct.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Lightbulbing Astro

Astro can give us also observatories (i can see 2-3 cities building them) and with all the Sci we're running they're a good investment.

A fair point.

Consider, however, that by Lightbulbing pre-Scientific-Method, we will give up our Monastaries that much sooner.

That means probably a similar amount of bonus Science (an average of 2 Monastaries in our bigger Cities, 3 in some, equals about 25% bonus Science in the 3 Cities that you suggest we would build Observatories in).

It also means that we will give up on The Parthenon bonus that much sooner.

It also means that we would give up on the +2 Hammers from each of our Confucian Monastaries.

It also means giving up on the +2 Flasks from each of our Confucian Monastaries.

It also means that we might not have a Monastary of every Religion built, so the only way to build some Missionaries in the future might be by running Organized Religion.

Note that we should almost exclusively be running Pacifism (for GPP points) or Theocracy (for positive Diplo modifiers) for the rest of the game, so it would be a real hindrance to have to switch into Org Rel just to be able to build some Missionaries.

In any case, i think that even if we researched almost all of Lib already, research Astro and SM the hard way takes too long.

Perhaps, but consider the alternative:
1. We Lighbulb Astronomy
2. We only have 1 Great Scientist
3. We are partway through Scientific Method
4. An AI forces us to take Liberalism
5. We have to take a partially-researched Scientific Method or a tech that is not on our beeline path with Liberalism

The more Great Scientists that we can "save up," the more flexibility that we will actually gain.

Consider that if we are close to finishing Astronomy when we need to learn Liberalism, we will have to choose between using a Great Scientist on the rest of Astronomy (not getting the full value out of the Great Scientist) or taking the risk of manually finishing Astronomy. So, in this case, the worst case, we are no worse off than if we used a Great Scientist on Astronomy and put some partial Flasks into Scientific Method and then had to take a partially-researched Scientific Method with Liberalism. So, the worst case scenario (this scenario) of saving our Great Scientists equals your case of Lightbulbing now.

In all other cases, we come out ahead by saving our Great Scientists.

i can't find yours. I remember to have read something, but can't remember what you said.

See the following quote for what I wrote to you on the subject, two days ago:

Great Scientists

Please do not use up our Great Scientists now.

Here is our overall strategy:
1. Learn Printing Press slowly, the hard way. Doing so gives us three advantages:
a) It lets us get maximum benefit out of our free Flasks from Monastaries
AND
b) It lets us get more free GPP from the Parthenon
AND
c) It gives the AIs more time to learn Optics and Astronomy, SAVING US RESEARCH TIME


1 Gold per turn from keeping a Great Scientist around is very much worth the 14 Flasks (plus bonuses) per turn that we currently get from our Confucian Monastaries. The faster that we get to Scientific Method, the faster that our Confucian Monastaries will become obsolete. Trading away more than 14 Flasks per turn to save 1 Gold per turn is a very bad tradeoff, wouldn't you agree?


Great Scientists and Liberalism
Okay, I think that you'll believe me better if I explain the possibilities.

We have a lot of assumptions to make here:
1. Assume that we can Trade for or manually research Optics but not Astronomy before the AIs have learned Education plus Philosophy.

In this case, we will be forced to take Liberliasm. If we have 2 Great Scientists saved up, we can immediately Lightbulb Astronomy and take Scientific Method with Liberalism.

2. Assume that we can Trade for or manually research Optics but not Astronomy because the AIs are slow in researching, so we are also not under pressure to learn Liberalism.

In this case, we can manually research Astronomy ourselves.

2. a) If partway through Astronomy we find that an AI may get Liberalism, we will use one Great Scientist to finish off Astronomy and we will take Scientific Method with Liberalism.

2. b) If we can manually complete Astronomy, without being in danger of losing Liberalism, we will do so.

We can manually start research on Scientific Method. If we are in danger of losing Liberalism, we can probably put some manual research into Scientific Method so that 2 Great Scientists can Lightbulb the rest of Scientific Method and then we can take Physics with Liberalism.

3. Assume that we can Trade for or manually research both Optics and Astronomy. Liberalism is in danger.

We will take Scientific Method with Liberalism.

4. Assume that we can Trade for or manually research both Optics and Astronomy. Liberalism is not immediately in danger.

We will manually research Scientific Method. We will use 1 to 2 Great Scientists to "finish off" Scientific Method if Liberalism is in danger. Then we will use Liberalism on Physics.

5. Assume that we can Trade for both Optics and Astronomy. Liberalism is not immediately in danger. You have also been really great at generating Great Scientists and have 5 to 6 Great Scientists.

We can manually research most of Scientific Method. If we are at risk of losing Liberalism, we can use one Great Scientist to finish off Scientific Method. IF YOU HAVE BEEN AWESOME AT GENERATING GREAT SCIENTISTS, then we can use 4 more Great Scientists to immediately Lightbulb Physics. Then we can take Electricity with Liberalism. THAT WOULD MAKE YOUR ULTIMATE GOAL TO GET 5 TO 6 GREAT SCIENTISTS!!! (6 would be in case we need to use 2 of them on Scientific Method).

If we can't get that many Great Scientists, then at least we'd be able to finish off Scientific Method with as many Great Scientist Lightbulbs as needed and then take Physics with Liberalism, using the remaining Great Scientists on Electricity.

Justy showed his lack of CS, but i could not know he was researching it. Since i (we) don't care to have HBR or Drama and he has not much money, i never opened the trade with him. I could have been interested if he showed Guilds, but he still lacks it.

Okay, no worries. Trading opportunities come and go. But, it is something to consider trying to do in the future, if it is applicable (it's not applicable if all we have to sell are Paper and Philosophy).

Note that Horseback Riding + our Ivory = War Elephants. However, it would probably be better to get an "easy to get tech" like this one from Isabella or Zara (and preferably only from Zara if we can get Toku to make someone else his Worst Enemy, like Mehmed).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

PLAYTIME?
First thing: Would you please reply and state when you plan to play? Chances are that I cannot help you if you play in the morning (your time) without letting me know the time in advance, but there is a chance that if you at least reply ASAP, I might be "sleep walking" enough to check every once and a while just to see if you've replied to say when you will play. Tomorrow night (your time) I am not going to be here, so that option doesn't work for me.

Perhaps you'll be on your own or can at least count on Irgy's help.

At least by pausing after 10 turns, you've allowed me the chance to give a lot of input, as you'll see below.


Resource Trading
T240: Please sell Fish to Isabella for 3 Gold Per Turn. Thank you.


Tech Trading
T240: We can consider selling Literature to Isabella for all of her Gold. It's not like we need to bribe her to go to war with Mehmed anymore.


City Citizen Allocation and Build Order Suggestions--some points happen on later turns, so be sure to make yourself a note somewhere for things that don't happen on T240
Silverado: T240: Switch a Coast (non-Lake) square to a Scientist. We will get an extra GPP per turn for 11 GPP from that Scientist, as we are making an odd number of base GPP here (due to having a National Wonder that contributes +1 base GPP).

Riverdale: T240: I would suggest that you switch the GH Mine to a GRiv Irr and grow in 2 turns. EDIT: Let's build a Theatre before the Courthouse (and thus get some value out of having traded for Drama). T242: Then, switch a the new citizen plus the weakest GRiv Cot (1W of Riverdale) for 2 Artist Specialists.

Bedrock: T240: I would hire 3 more Scientists, using the Des Stone, GH Mine, and one of the GRiv Irr squares. We'd still get our Forge soon enough and we'd be making 8 Hammers and an even number of GPP. The City wouldn't shrink for 22 turns, so we're doing really well by losing only a bit of Food.

Grt Person Farm: T249: The City should grow to Size 11 on T249. Turn the new citizen and one of the Lakes into 2 more Great Scientists, for an even number of GPP.

Risaia: T240: Switch the PFor into a Scientist for an even number of GPP.

Crabs: T240: Switch the GIrr into a Scientist for an even number of GPP. The City will shrink in 14 turns. T240: Fire 2 Scientists and work 2 GIrr squares for positive Food growth and an even number of GPP.

Three Clams: Finish the Confucian Monastery -> Confucian Missionary (goes west for the northern Barb City) -> Forge -> Buddhist Temple -> Courthouse -> Buddhist Monastery

Three Clams: T240: Can we build the Confucian Missionary before the Forge, for the northern Barb City, please? Also: T244: This City will grow in 4 turns, on T244. Once it does, turn the new citizen and the PMarble into Scientists, for an even number of GPP.

Sugar Daddy: T240: We ummm, have a Citizen Specialist hired. Maybe we can turn him into a Merchant for 3 turns, pretty please? T243: Complete the Confucian Monastary and build a Caravel, after which we will build a Courthouse. Now that we have our Confucian Monastary built, we can get a bonus Flask if we switch the Merchant to a Scientist, as we will make exactly 10 Flasks by hiring a Scientist (10 base Flasks * 10% Monastary's Flask bonus = 11 Flasks).

Goldfish: T240: Can we seriously consider building some Cultural bulidings now, before finishing the Forge? Right now, it looks like we will get 2 extra Hammers from a Forge per turn. But, if we lose the Gold, we will only get 1 extra Hammer per turn from the Forge, which doesn't really help us all that much. We will also miss out on the Gold's Commerce. We might even lose the Fish if Saladin's borders expand and our Cultural output remains weak. So I would suggest that we build: EDIT: Theatre -> Buddhist Monastary -> Monument -> Forge. If you agree with my reasoning, you might as well queue up the other three buildings now, so that you don't forget to switch to them later.

Ivory Towers: T230: Whip the Lighthouse. Finish the Lighthouse -> Confucian Monastery -> Two Confucian Missionaries for Isabella -> Confucian Temple -> Forge

Ivory Towers: T240: Build a Confucian Monastary instead of the Forge, then 2 Confucian Missionaries, as per the original plan. We'd like to have Isabella "on our side" of the religious division (Confucianism). This way, we can also protect her if Mehmed starts to beat on her badly, by voting to stop the war against her (I am guessing that the AI is programmed not to continuously Defy Resolutions, otherwise the Apostolic Palace's Resolutions would be pretty lame.) We don't want her to end up a vassal, and Confucianism is the best way that we have to protect her. Just 2 Confucian Missionaries should be enough, and we have to build them in this City, because we can't count on having Open Borders with Zara. Later, we can make her Buddhist with minimal effort, but for now, it would be ideal to have her as a Confucianist.

Mystic: T240: Switch one of the GIrr squares to a Scientist, in order to get an even number of GPP. If we had even one more GIrr square, I would say fire the Scientist and grow first, but we don't have another GIrr square, so hiring 2 Scientists is our second-best option.

Thank you for not settling Whales.


Galley 3
T240: Can you please stop Galley 3 from auto-moving to the west (he is currently SE + S of Baghdad) and follow my quoted advice below?

Our galley with the LB and the worker gathered from Sugar is now heading to the barb island. A lot faster than wallking.

Ummmm that may be true but it loses us the flexibility of shuttling troops around near our homeland. It also leaves that Galley very vulnerable to both Barb Galleys and to Privateers.

I would strongly recommend that you drop the units off on Saladin's lands and then hide the Galley in Crabs.

Worker Action Suggestions
Worker 1: I see that Worker 1 is running free on Road-building missions. Rather than risking putting Roads on squares next to Forests (it hasn't happened yet, but he will soon run out of turns and I can see you doing so), can you instead put Roads on the Forests in the neighbourhood and carefully Chop/Stop them until they have 1 turn left to complete? Note that I only mean these Forests: PRiv For 1NE of where Whales will go, PFor SE + E of Delhi, PRiv For E + E + E of Delhi (it already has a Road so just 1 turn of Chop/Stop). It's too risky to pre-chop the Forests for The UN, as we don't want to accidentally complete these chops now, so let's not pre-chop them--they will be easy enough to fully pre-Chop later. We don't even want a Road on the TunFor SE of Riverdale, as then if we temporarily lose this square to Zara's Culture, he'll be more likely to Chop it before our Culture can steal it back.

Worker 2: Maybe he can go and put a Farm on the Grassland square 1NW of Risaia.

Worker 3: Maybe he can put a Farm on the Grassland by Mystic. I'd rather lose 1 turn in moving Worker 3 just to get there than to build Roads in the middle of nowhere like he is doing now.

Worker 4 and Longbowman 8: Move 1NW off of Galley 3, onto Saldin's Road network. They will "arrive alive" instead of hopping a ride in a drunken Galley that might or might not make it to the west but will for sure not make it back east again a Privateer can appear to sink it.

Workers 6 and 7: They appear to be grouped together. Please be very re-issue their commands separately. You can very easily lose Worker turns when you group Workers. You also can't tell when they are grouped whether or not a Worker turn will be lost unless you first click on them individually, and if you have to go to that level of trouble to save lost Worker turns, then you might as well just issue the commands individually.

Workers 5 and 8: The same point about grouping Workers. Also, instead of doing things like building a Windmill (that won't be of much use until after Replaceable Parts and/or Electricity anyway, especially on a Desert Hills square), can we please finish the Grassland Farms at Mystic?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

To Win or Lose the Game?
What do we need the most right now???
1. Toku's Friendship.
2. Zara to avoid becoming Toku's Vassal.
3. A war ally against Mehmed.


What does Toku have right now???
1. He is building up Friendship towards Mehmed (Religion + Mutual Military Struggle = +1 per every 5 turns on average). If Toku gets to Friendly with Mehmed, we won't be able to get them into a war with each other.
2. He has a good chance of vassalizing first Zara, then the rest of the world.
3. He has a good chance of deciding to attack us once he's done with Zara.


What can we do about it???
Let's bite the bullet.
Toku will take Civil Service + Code of Laws for Peace with Zara + all of his Gold (330 Gold).

1. Let's take that deal.

2. Then, let's bite the next bullet and immediately switch into Buddhism.
3. Then, bribe Toku into war with Mehmed, giving preference for giving him Philosophy and Gold, but also be prepared to give him Philosophy, Paper, and Gold, if that's what he wants. Put "War with Mehmed" on his side of the table, Philosophy on our side of the table, and ask "What would make this deal work?." If we don't have enough Gold, he'll ask for Paper. However, if we have enough Gold (thanks for the donation, Toku), he'll put his price in Gold on the table beside Philosophy. We need this war, but take the lowest price that he will accept. Sell techs around to get more Gold if he wants Paper (Literature to Isabella, even sell Compass to Zara if Isabella's Gold is not enough, but it is best to wait on trading with Zara if we can help it). Get whatever Gold you can. If he still won't accept the deal, then he gets Paper, that rotten bugger, but we can't even let him get one turn without a war, as he might just get his "hands full" if we wait more turns to collect Gold. So, all the way, hardcore, into war, with Mehmed, on T240.


Why?
1. We NEED to get Mutual Military Struggle bonuses with Toku.
2. We NEED to keep Zara from becoming a Vassal.
3. We would really LIKE for Toku to build up Mutual Military Struggle bonuses with Zara.
4. We would really LIKE for Toku NOT to build up Mutual Military Struggle bonuses with Mehmed.

Let's stop messing around. Let's play like men. Let's bite the bullet. Pay the techs to Toku. Make it happen. T240. Do it.

In 5 turns, remember to switch back to Confucianism.


After Toku likes Zara enough from the Mutual Military Struggle bonuses, we can trade with Zara again. Likely, that won't happen until the next player's turnset, but it will happen, because we are going to make it happen!


Synthetic enough for you?

P. S. That's what we call a POWER MOVE. That's right. BAM!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Maximizing Philosophy's Value
After we make that deal with Toku, Philosophy will be in danger of being traded to Justinian.

After the deals with Toku go through, we will be in Buddhism.

Justinian will be Friendly with us at +10.

We are +6 with him now and will get rid of -3 and gain +1 from switching to Buddhism.

6 + 3 + 1 = 10. Perfect: just enough.

BAM, Justinian = Friendly = he will trade any tech.

So, AFTER the Toku deal (since we want to get the most value out of Philosophy with Toku), I would try to buy Engineering from Justinian (2340 Flasks) for Philosophy + Optics (1872 + 1404 = 3276 Flasks)... sounds like it will be a pretty good offer to me.

If we don't take this deal, likely Justinian will get Philosophy in trade. It was our Great Scientist that Lightbulbed the tech, we should be the ones to trade it, not Saladin. Fair?

 

[Irgy]

So, the cost of all this craziness is possibly a lesser tech from liberalism. That's basically the judgement call in all this that we need to make. From the options above, Physics with Liberalism is the best we could realistically hope for either way, do we think that's still possible if we give away paper? If so then it's not such a big deal. Toku is teching the fastest though, so except for not having philosophy he is the one most likely to force our hand with Liberalism.

It's a judgement call otherwise, whether our plans for Toku trump our finishing-date affecting plans for getting something crazy from Liberalism. It depends mostly on what our other options are, and that's not an easy question. I'm happy to trust Dhoomstriker's judgement on it, but also happy to discuss it if we have the time to.

If we're bound to either bulb or use liberalism for Scientific Method, then blubing Astronomy no longer seems quite so crazy, as we won't get the down-sides of Scientific method any sooner by blubing Astro than by bulbing Scientific Method itself.

Are we building any caravels to explore the dark seas to the north by the way? We should really do so soon now that we have optics. There might be exciting things out there.

 

[BLubmuz]

I could not know exactly when i play the rest of my TS. I think i will wait 'til tonight (6 or 10 hours from now) to see some more comment.

I see Dhoom's point about Toku. Giving him paper (still a monopoly for us) we seriously compromise our tech from Lib. See his tech rate we can:

option a)
- partially LB part of both Astro and SM using 1 GS each (it's what we have for sure, not dreams), then use Lib for Physics.

option b)
- partially LB part of Astro use Lib for SM and burn the 2nd GS on part of Physics.


I think that a diplo move like that can be successful diplo-wise and surely solves a bad situation, but the cons are that we must rush Lib. And we can lose the race if Toku pops a GS.

So, i'm in favor of option a), but being prepared to get Nationalism outside of Lib in case of danger.

If we don't need paper to bribe Toku into peace and war, the situation will be quite different: probably he would use philo to follow the Nationalism/MT path to have cuirassiers and cavalry after rifling.

 

[BLubmuz]

resuming:
basically, Dhoom's proposed strategy to bribe Toku at peace with Zara and at war with Mehmed, conflicts with his GS/bulbing/Lib strategy if we need to put paper on the table.

Both can still work if we can keep paper in monopoly.

The best we can do is to gather as much gold as possible to try to avoid to spend Paper.

In any case, his war with Mehmed will be phony, since he can't have OB with Zara. At least until next AP resolution.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

What exactly is crazy? Do you agree with all of the other parts of my suggestions that are not the "crazy" part?

So, the cost of all this craziness

Can you please explain which part of my suggestions is the crazy part? This statement makes it sound like you are dismissing most of my ideas. That may not have been your intention, so clarification would be appreciated.


We can easily estimate Toku's research based on how quickly he learns Education as a means of finding out our minimum amount of leeway time on Liberalism

From the options above, Physics with Liberalism is the best we could realistically hope for either way, do we think that's still possible if we give away paper

If we have to give away Paper, it is quite possible that we can still get Physics from Liberalism.

Consider that even it Toku fast-techs towards Education and Liberalism, he still has a number of turns to go. We can "cheat" by counting the number of turns that it took him to research education. That amount will give us a very good estimate as to how many turns after which he can possibly self-tech Liberalism at the earliest.

There is a strong chance that he will not even go after Liberalism.

Toku prefers the Banking Route, and given the choice between the free Great Merchant from Economics and a free tech from Liberalism, he is far more likely to pursue the free Great Merchant after learning Education.


Finishing Date

It's a judgement call otherwise, whether our plans for Toku trump our finishing-date affecting plans for getting something crazy from Liberalism.

As much as I am going to push for us getting a good tech with Liberalism and as much as I am going to insist that we get a tech on our Mass Media beeline using Liberalism, we have to consider that without this war, we will likely not get Toku's vote at the end of the game.

That means that no matter how quickly we research Mass Media and built The UN, I might be handed a "final turnset" that could last 100 turns.


One thing that we all agree upon is that we are going to make sure that we are the first to Liberalism. We all agree that in the worst case, we will still get most of a free tech or all of a tech out of Liberalism.

Certainly, the difference of which free tech we get is smaller than playing 100 extra turns at the end because we lack Toku's vote.


Can we delay the war between Toku and Mehmed? No, I do not think that we can. I've already stated my reasons why I believe this to be true, but the most important reason is that if we delay the war, we will have to choose between capturing all of Mehmed's Confucian Cities or else never getting Toku's vote. Due to Toku's impending Friendliness towards Mehmed, those will be our choices.

Out of the choices of:
a) Being forced to capture all of Mehmed's Confucian Cities while Toku vassalizes the world
OR
b) Never winning the game because we lack Toku's vote
OR
c) Getting a less-expensive tech with Liberalism

Which choice would you pick? Because those are the options that we are faced with.


Lightbulbing

If we're bound to either bulb or use liberalism for Scientific Method, then blubing Astronomy no longer seems quite so crazy, as we won't get the down-sides of Scientific method any sooner by blubing Astro than by bulbing Scientific Method itself.

I laid out a lot of if-then-else conditions for Lightbulbing. This statement takes a lot of assumptions to be truth and then makes a claim. If one of these assumptions fails to prove to be true, then Lightbulbing Astronomy turns out to be a very poor move.

In fact, I demonstrated the Lightbulbing Astronomy is equal to our worst-case scenario. Therefore, if we intentionally do not Lightbulb Astronomy as our plan but follow my if-then-else set of steps (which does have Lightbulbing Astronomy as a last-ditch option), we will be stronger off than just setting our minds to perform an action based on assumptions that might not even prove to be true.


Caravel Exploration

Are we building any caravels to explore the dark seas to the north by the way? We should really do so soon now that we have optics. There might be exciting things out there.

What build item would you have us give up?

The strongest advantage to building Caravels is to get the circumnavigation bonus. We've already got that.

If there is something interesting to be found, we won't be able to do anything about it until we get Galleons.

I would rather just buy the AIs' World Maps, which seem to cost only 5 Gold for revealing all of the Ocean squares that they have uncovered (a BTS design flaw, if you ask me). If you previously bought their World Map and they now ask for more than 5 Gold, you will know that they have discovered some land and can buy that info off of them. If they still just ask for 5 Gold, you won't need to waste your time buying the maps until we have Galleons ready to be sent out, at which point you'd buy the info just to know where NOT to look in the Ocean.

So, no, I would rather not build an inexperienced Caravel (no promotions without our Military Civics) only to have it cost us Gold per turn, probably die to a Privateer, and likely not reveal anything that an AI can't give away to us in their foolish quest to make an extra few Gold from selling their World Map to us.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Playing and Stopping

I could not know exactly when i play the rest of my TS. I think i will wait

If you can wait until tomorrow morning or tomorrow evening (tomorrow being the 30th) then I can help out. Otherwise I will be unavailable.


What I would ask is that if at any point an AI learns Education, or if at any point you feel the urge to LIGHTBULB a tech OR use up LIBERALISM, then please save the game and stop play. Wait for sufficient feedback from the team. It is too important of an issue to just keep playing through.

Hopefully, this issue will not even arise during your turnset, but if it does, what is the value in playing an extra 5 turns? Will that speed up our game? Not really. UT is not even back yet. Does it have the chance of slowing down our game? Yes, indeed it does.


Techs and AI War Declarations

I see Dhoom's point about Toku. Giving him paper (still a monopoly for us) we seriously compromise our tech from Lib.

If you are at war with an AI, bribing another AI into the war is cheap. Even moreso when you bribe a Powerful leader like Toku, as he will feel that the opportunity to go to war is too good to pass up.

I posit that from experience, it will cost us more to get the AI to Declare Peace than it will for them to go to War with an AI that we are already at war with.

Toku will take Peace with Zara for a very cheap price (less than the cost of a relatively-medium-priced tech and a relatively-cheap tech, as he will give us all of his Gold).


So, I would argue that he is unlikely to require us to offer up two relatively-medium-priced techs to go to war.

He might even have been willing to PAY us Gold plus War with Mehmed in exchange for Philosophy, if we were to leave him any Gold (but we'll take all of his Gold in the Peace with Zara trade deal so that we'll have the option of giving it right back to him).


That's the ultimate concern that you guys have: having to give up Paper.

The numbers just don't support us needing to give up Paper, especially with your ability to raise Gold from a couple of extra sources, should it be needed.


In fact, Toku's price for war will be even cheaper than Zara's was (which was really cheap, remember?), because not only are we at war with the target, but there are also TWO other AIs at war with the war target--Isabella and Zara.

Toku would probably be willing to PAY US to go to war with Mehmed if the game allowed for that possibility.


However, I AM confident that if he wants more than Philosophy and all of the Gold that we can raise, we WILL be able to afford the war for Philosophy + Paper, because those techs cost more than Civil Service + Code of Laws and War with an AI that we are at war with is inherrently cheaper than paying for peace.

So, the only question becomes: can we raise enough Gold to make up the difference, if Toku won't simply accept Philosophy with a big grin on his face? I think that the answer is a strong "yes."

That said, I still think that our contingency plan of also having to give away Paper will
1. For certain be sufficient to pay him off
AND
2. Be the best choice out of all of the alternatives available to us


Lightbulbing

- partially LB part of both Astro and SM using 1 GS each (it's what we have for sure, not dreams), then use Lib for Physics.

Please re-read my steps on Lightbulbing, because this plan really doesn't work.

If we are forced to use a Lightbulb on Astronomy, we will not have sufficient time to research enough of Scientific Method for even TWO Great Scientists to finish Scientific Method in time, and your suggestion plans for us to be able to do so with just ONE Great Scientist to finish Scientific Method. This plan will not work.

- partially LB part of Astro use Lib for SM and burn the 2nd GS on part of Physics.

Okay, but this situation is our worst-case scenario. We should not make it our primary plan.


I have laid out my arguments for why using a Great Scientist to Lightbulb Astronomy is a mistake. I cannot hold your hand and control your actions. I have to rely on your good sense of judgment to trust the fact that I have laid out a very clear and solid plan for our Great Person Lightbulbing.

If you truly wish to go against my plan, please come up with a very specific and clear plan of your own for Lightbulbing. You should include "if this happens, then do X, or if that happens, then do Y, but if that other thing happens, do Z, etc." Otherwise, it is not clear at all how Lightbulbing Astronomy beats my carefully-planned-out Lightbulbing approach. Make it clear how your plan will work and then we can vote on the two plans. Or, stick with my plan and please do not Lightbulb Astronomy.



Assumptions

I think that a diplo move like that can be successful diplo-wise and surely solves a bad situation, but the cons are that we must rush Lib.

You are treating an assumption as a fact on which to base your argument. We do not yet know that Liberalism will actually be in any danger.

In fact, the evidence points strongly against this fact.

Also, by trading away Philosophy, we'll encourage the AIs to chase after Nationalism. It would be best if MULTIPLE AIs got Nationalism, so that we could trade for it whenever we want to.


Lightbulbing Liberalism? Really?

And we can lose the race if Toku pops a GS.

Your fear is about Toku Lightbulbing Liberalism? Interesting. We have Great Scientists. Have we ever seen Liberalism as a Lightbulbing option in our game? No? Why not? Well, because it takes a lot of "tech planning" to be able to take Liberalism with a Great Scientist. The fact is that Toku will not be able to Lightbulb Liberalism. Period. check out the Great Scientist Lightbulbing tech path for BTS and you will see what I mean.

For example, you said that he has Musketmen, but no mention was made of Grenadiers. We can clearly see from his techs that he has Gunpowder and Engineering.

So, Chemistry would come up as a Lightbulbing option before Liberalism.


We know that Toku knows Alphabet and Machinery.

If Toku learns Education, Printing Press will be opened up as a Lightbulbing option before Liberalism.


We know that Toku knows Optics.

So, Astronomy will come up as a Lightbulb option before Liberalism.


Do I need to go on? No, I will stop here--there might be other examples but I think that my point has been made. Toku cannot Lightbulb Liberalism.

Great Scientist Lightbulbing:

Spoiler :

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
Laser (BTS)
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
Biology
Electricity
Flight
Genetics
Compass
Satellites
Aesthetics (BTS)
Sailing
Alphabet (Vanilla & Warlords)
Calendar
Medicine
Ecology
Advanced Flight (BTS)
Iron Working
Metal Casting
Engineering
Steam Power
Liberalism
Agriculture
Masonry
Bronze Working
Machinery
Gunpowder
Refrigeration
Superconductors (BTS)
Rocketry
Fishing
Combustion
Plastics
Composites
Stealth (BTS)
Mining
Military Science (BTS)
Radio
Meditation
Drama
Theology
Music
Civil Service
Democracy
Corporation
Communism
Economics
Hunting
Archery
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Robotics
Monotheism
Mass Media
Horseback Riding
Replaceable Parts
Rifling
Artillery
Future Tech

Even if we have to give up Paper, we are in no immediate danger of losing Liberalism. In fact, if we can collect and KEEP 3 Great Scientists, we will have a great amount of flexibility. The more Great Scientists that we can collect and KEEP, the greater our flexibility in choosing our Liberalism tech.

Remember that you will be doing everything in your power to avoid giving away Paper by collecting first seeing what Toku's price is, and if we don't have enough Gold, you will collect some Gold from Isabella for Literature. Check with Toku again. Still not enough? Well, we'll be able to trade Compass to Zara for a tech, his World Map, and as much Gold as he will give us. Check with Toku. Still not enough? Then Paper it is.


What? Liberalism on a Non-beeline Tech?

So, i'm in favor of option a), but being prepared to get Nationalism outside of Lib in case of danger.

You now have a test saved game. It may not be perfectly accurate, but it is accurate enough for you to be able to prove whether or not a Golden Age is worth the cost of using Liberalism on a tech that is not on our beeline path.

To justify this fact, you would have to demonstrate that a Golden Age can give us the equivalent Flask-value of the tech that we would otherwise use Liberalism on.

I think that when you run the test, you will see that spending Liberalism on Nationalism and getting a Golden Age will net us less Research than using Liberalism on even a partially-researched Scientific Method.

Consider that most of our income comes from Scientists, not Commerce, and a lot of our Hammers come from the Apostolic Palace bonuses, instead of from worked squares. So a Golden Age will not provide us a lot of bonus yields on squares worked by citizens.

A Golden Age WILL give us +100% GPP production. However, this +100% is diluted by the +100% from Philosophical, the +50% from The Parthenon, and the +100% in one City for the National Epic.

Can you use a test saved game to demonstrate that the extra Commerce and extra GPP will result in enough of a gain over using Liberalism on even a "cheaper" tech like Scientific Method? If you cannot come up with this proof, then I think the idea of taking a non-beeline tech has to be immediately discarded as an inferior choice to taking a beeline tech.


AIs going for Nationalism

If we don't need paper to bribe Toku into peace and war, the situation will be quite different: probably he would use philo to follow the Nationalism/MT path to have cuirassiers and cavalry after rifling.

I agree. Even if Toku does go for Education after Paper, though, I think that he still has a very strong chance of going after either Nationalism or Banking + Economics before he goes for Liberalism.

Saladin, I would not trust: he is an AI that I would see going after Liberalism. But for Toku, I do not even worry about losing the Liberalism race if Toku has Education, Philosophy, and a 20-turn head-start, due to the other techs coming higher in his normal list of preferences. We would have to get a very unlucky dice roll for Toku to beeline Liberalism.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

basically, Dhoom's proposed strategy to bribe Toku at peace with Zara and at war with Mehmed, conflicts with his GS/bulbing/Lib strategy if we need to put paper on the table.

I am sorry, but I do not see the conflict at all.

Every possibility is planned-for in the Lightbulbing strategy, including an AI getting Education and Philosophy before we know Astronomy.


My Lightbulbing strategy covers this possibility and just about any possibility that can happen.


Paper

Both can still work if we can keep paper in monopoly.

I would be more worried about Saladin learning Paper than Toku learning it. Toku will hold onto it. Saladin getting it (or Justinian getting it and trading it to Saladin) would be our biggest worry.

There is no point engaging in worry-mongering. I've presented the numbers and the facts.

I've laid out a very clear Lightbulbing strategy that even accounts for an AI learning Paper.

Things will still work even if we have to give up our monopoly on Paper, but the numbers and facts actually point to us having a very high probability of keeping our monopoly on Paper.


Apostolic Palace

In any case, his war with Mehmed will be phony, since he can't have OB with Zara. At least until next AP resolution.

Unfortunately, you might not have read the last list of Apostolic Palace choices closely enough to have noticed, but I can tell you that "Open Borders with all Members" was not one of the choices.

How do I know?

Well, all Members must be at Peace with each other for the Resolution to be available. You can't Open Borders with a player that you are at war with, so the game disallows this Resolution in such a situation. Therefore, you could not have seen such a Resolution, nor will you see one the next time that a vote comes up.

Sorry, the Apostolic Palace failed us when we needed it (the Resolution was defied) so we have to take matters into our own hands.

We are just very fortunate that we actually have Civil Service and Code of Laws above and beyond Toku, otherwise we might not even have a way to solve our dilemma.


Okay, that's all that I can offer, I have no more time left for the thread today until after you are in bed at the earliest, so either proceed slowly and stop when you feel the urge to Lightbulb or else wait to play until tomorrow if you'd like my guidance while you play.

 

[Irgy]

Can you please explain which part of my suggestions is the crazy part? This statement makes it sound like you are dismissing most of my ideas. That may not have been your intention, so clarification would be appreciated.

Sorry, it's come out the wrong way. I meant craziness in the sense of being very out-there and a large and sudden shift in policy. I didn't mean it in a negative way at all, let alone a dismissive one. It's probably just a cultural thing, different words can have a different level of impact even when they mean basically the same thing, to me "crazy" was more of a throw-away term than how you're taking it.

I was just exploring the idea, I'm basically willing to take your word for whether it's a good strategy or not on balance, but I like to analyse it either way.

If we have to give away Paper, it is quite possible that we can still get Physics from Liberalism.

Consider that even it Toku fast-techs towards Education and Liberalism, he still has a number of turns to go. We can "cheat" by counting the number of turns that it took him to research education. That amount will give us a very good estimate as to how many turns after which he can possibly self-tech Liberalism at the earliest.

There is a strong chance that he will not even go after Liberalism.

Toku prefers the Banking Route, and given the choice between the free Great Merchant from Economics and a free tech from Liberalism, he is far more likely to pursue the free Great Merchant after learning Education.

It's a bit of a risk though once he has philosophy and education, I wouldn't want to sit on Liberalism for more than a turn or two to prepare ourselves after that. I would have thought there'd be a fair few factors that could cause a different research rate between Education and Liberalism.

It is a good point though that he might pursue Economics, maybe that will prevent him from going after Education in the first place?

As much as I am going to push for us getting a good tech with Liberalism and as much as I am going to insist that we get a tech on our Mass Media beeline using Liberalism, we have to consider that without this war, we will likely not get Toku's vote at the end of the game.

That means that no matter how quickly we research Mass Media and built The UN, I might be handed a "final turnset" that could last 100 turns.


One thing that we all agree upon is that we are going to make sure that we are the first to Liberalism. We all agree that in the worst case, we will still get most of a free tech or all of a tech out of Liberalism.

Certainly, the difference of which free tech we get is smaller than playing 100 extra turns at the end because we lack Toku's vote.

Well, that's basically what it comes down to. If there's another way to get Toku's vote, or to ensure we don't need it (which seems unlikely to me at this stage), then that's the alternative that we're comparing to. If there isn't another way, then we have to do it, whether it seems "crazy" or not.

Can we delay the war between Toku and Mehmed? No, I do not think that we can. I've already stated my reasons why I believe this to be true, but the most important reason is that if we delay the war, we will have to choose between capturing all of Mehmed's Confucian Cities or else never getting Toku's vote. Due to Toku's impending Friendliness towards Mehmed, those will be our choices.

Out of the choices of:
a) Being forced to capture all of Mehmed's Confucian Cities while Toku vassalizes the world
OR
b) Never winning the game because we lack Toku's vote
OR
c) Getting a less-expensive tech with Liberalism

Which choice would you pick? Because those are the options that we are faced with.

If those are the options then the choice is obvious, as I said above the only question is whether there's other options. And I'm sure there is other options, I can think of a couple myself, it's just they're all worse than your plan still.

All I'm really getting at is that it's a big decision, we're making a fairly large sacrifice to go with this strategy, it's good to explore the costs and alternatives. It's much more worthy of spending time to discuss in detail than a few worker moves and build orders.

Of course as you've pointed out, we probably don't need to give away paper, and if we don't then the cost isn't even all that high.

I laid out a lot of if-then-else conditions for Lightbulbing. This statement takes a lot of assumptions to be truth and then makes a claim. If one of these assumptions fails to prove to be true, then Lightbulbing Astronomy turns out to be a very poor move.

In fact, I demonstrated the Lightbulbing Astronomy is equal to our worst-case scenario. Therefore, if we intentionally do not Lightbulb Astronomy as our plan but follow my if-then-else set of steps (which does have Lightbulbing Astronomy as a last-ditch option), we will be stronger off than just setting our minds to perform an action based on assumptions that might not even prove to be true.

From what I can see, Lightbulbing Astronomy is no worse than any of the options you suggested short of getting Electricity with Liberalism, which seems unlikely, especially if we end up having to trade Paper. Maybe I'm missing something, but every option other than slow-teching both Astro and SciMeth (which is the Electricity line) involves us bulbing something before SciMeth, so why not make that something Astronomy? Actually I realise something now that I write that, which is that we don't want to be part way through Scientific Method and find we suddenly have to take the rest of it from Liberalism. Is that the flaw in my argument?

What build item would you have us give up?

The strongest advantage to building Caravels is to get the circumnavigation bonus. We've already got that.

If there is something interesting to be found, we won't be able to do anything about it until we get Galleons.

I would rather just buy the AIs' World Maps, which seem to cost only 5 Gold for revealing all of the Ocean squares that they have uncovered (a BTS design flaw, if you ask me). If you previously bought their World Map and they now ask for more than 5 Gold, you will know that they have discovered some land and can buy that info off of them. If they still just ask for 5 Gold, you won't need to waste your time buying the maps until we have Galleons ready to be sent out, at which point you'd buy the info just to know where NOT to look in the Ocean.

So, no, I would rather not build an inexperienced Caravel (no promotions without our Military Civics) only to have it cost us Gold per turn, probably die to a Privateer, and likely not reveal anything that an AI can't give away to us in their foolish quest to make an extra few Gold from selling their World Map to us.

It was just a thought/suggestion, you're shooting it down with much more vigour than you need to.

But since I like arguing anyway... By the time a Caravel actually finds land, we'll likely have galleons already. If we wait until Astronomy we'll have the ability to send a settler out but won't be able to because we won't know where to send it or even whether to bother building it in the first place.

Letting the AIs explore for us sounds like a reasonable option, but we don't want to find out about the land after it's already been settled.

The cost of a Caravel isn't that high in the scheme of things either. Of course on the other hand maybe we're not really interested in some extra land either, and there's a good choice there isn't any as well.

Of course I don't know what we'd replace, because I don't know what we're building, it's all I can manage to try and fix this test game at the moment

 

[BLubmuz]

I think that i can resume our options as follows:
- no discussion for the need to bribe Toku for peace and war. we'll pay what he asks.
- what we need is to decide what to squeeze out of Lib, so (worst case to best case):
a) SM
b) Physics
c) Electricity
d) Radio

My opinion is that SM is more than safe, Physics is streched but doable, Electricity and Radio are out of reach.

What i can do is to open the save, make all the trades/bribes and save, reporting what's up. I will also check how many turns we need to have Astro+SM manually researched.
Since the GS can give us some 60% of Astro we can wait to bulb it some turn, to buy time to discuss and to see how things move in game.

Please remember that Toku researched GP very fast and with only 1 prerequisite. I know perfectly that a GS has Lib very down his bulbing path, but there're GPro that can LB it after DR. A GPro can bulb PP if you know DR and paper or Lib if you know Edu and DR. Luckily i don't think Toku will pop 2 GPro in a row. Sal maybe, owning a Holy Shrine, but not so fast to help him much on Lib.

So, we must decide between option b) and c). I see c) too risky even if we can hold paper for long. So i propose to go for b), using 1 GS for each tech.

Sorry, but i see your proposed LB path more like a dream than like a plan. Sure if we popped a GS instead of a GE from GPF (and still popped a GS from Dehli, despite higher chances for a GE) it could have been more of a plan. But unfortunately we can't control the GPeople we have when our cities are polluted.

 

[unclethrill]

I just got back from vacation (internet was broken all week) and am hopelessly behind on the posts and what is going on. I also have 2 final exams due on 8/3 so there is just no way I can pick up BLubz's save and be done by the third as the schedule says.

So, can I swap one more TS and pick up on the next TS after the "finish on 8/3" TS?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Toku and techs after Education

It's a bit of a risk though once he has philosophy and education, I wouldn't want to sit on Liberalism for more than a turn or two to prepare ourselves after that. I would have thought there'd be a fair few factors that could cause a different research rate between Education and Liberalism.

It is a good point though that he might pursue Economics, maybe that will prevent him from going after Education in the first place?

Just as a reminder, Education is one of the pre-requisites of Economics, with Banking being the other one.

That's all that I was saying about Toku... if he gets Education, he might prefer to chase after Economics as his "post-Education" tech instead of Liberalism as his "post-Education" tech.

However, I agree that it is a risk to delay for long.

Many factors could be involved:
1. Toku could use overflow research from Education into Liberalism
2. Toku could have a low Science Rate (say, 30%) while researching Education and then jump it up to 100% when learning Liberalism
3. As BLubz said, there are other Great People (good call, by the way, I hadn't thought about Great Prophets).

Further, we won't know if Toku spent all of his time researching Education after learning Paper or if he delayed some time researching something else before going for Education.

So, fine, once he learns Education, we probably can't dare to wait, even if he won't chase after Liberalism for a long time.


Getting Toku's Vote

If those are the options then the choice is obvious, as I said above the only question is whether there's other options. And I'm sure there is other options, I can think of a couple myself, it's just they're all worse than your plan still.

While we can hope to get Toku's vote by switching into Mercantilism, that plan is dangerous, due to the facts that:
a) Our economy would be pretty badly hurt by running Mercantilism for a long enough time period to get +6 with Toku (60 turns)
AND
b) Toku would still hate Zara, so we'd still have a -4 Traded with our Worst Enemies modifier to live with


My plan does not necessarily correct situation b), but it hopes to at least reduce the -4 to a more manageable number.

My plan does not prevent us from also switching into Mercantilism for extra positive Diplo points.

So, my plan is not a "magic solution that solves all of our problems," but it does help to put us on a good path towards solving some of them for a relatively cheap cost.


Discussion

All I'm really getting at is that it's a big decision, we're making a fairly large sacrifice to go with this strategy, it's good to explore the costs and alternatives. It's much more worthy of spending time to discuss in detail than a few worker moves and build orders.

You're right. So, spend all of the virtual ink that you want. It's not like we haven't already typed buckloads of messages. A few more won't make the situation much worse.


Toku's Origami

Of course as you've pointed out, we probably don't need to give away paper, and if we don't then the cost isn't even all that high.

Indeed, Toku might not need Paper. If he doesn't, then the plan is probably the perfect time to execute it--if we wait any longer, he'll likely learn one of the 4 techs that we know which he does not know, since he has researched just about every other tech possible at this point.

It is like his AI programming is smart enough to KNOW that we will eventually trade those techs to him, so he planned ahead like a good human player would and researched other techs instead!


Lightbulbing Astronomy

From what I can see, Lightbulbing Astronomy is no worse than any of the options you suggested short of getting Electricity with Liberalism, which seems unlikely, especially if we end up having to trade Paper. Maybe I'm missing something, but every option other than slow-teching both Astro and SciMeth (which is the Electricity line) involves us bulbing something before SciMeth, so why not make that something Astronomy? Actually I realise something now that I write that, which is that we don't want to be part way through Scientific Method and find we suddenly have to take the rest of it from Liberalism. Is that the flaw in my argument?

I think that you have hit upon the biggest issue that I have with Lightbulbing Astronomy, which is that we might get "stuck" partway through Scientific Method and not have enough Great Scientists remaining to research it.

If we have at least 2 Great Scientists, then either Astronomy or most of Scientific Method can be Lightbulbed within a short period of time. But, if we use up 1 Great Scientist on Astronomy, then there is a big time period where we will be manually researching Scientific Method but will not have the freedom to "finish it with Lightbulbs" should we need to do so.


The other main argument, of course, is that the more Lightbulbs that we use pre-Scientific-Method, the faster that our Monastaries will go obsolete and thus the more Hammers and Flasks we will lose overall.

It is not a matter of DELAYING Scientific Method by researching other techs--that would not be my choice. However, I also do not wish to SPEED UP the research on Scientific Method or the techs that lead up to it (just Astronomy at this point) if we do not have to do so.


Another thought on the Lightbulbing of Scientific Method issue: Since Scientific Method has an optional pre-requisite of Chemistry, since we are deliberately NOT going to research Chemistry, taking Scientific Method with Liberalism COULD be seen as being somewhat efficient. So, it is not my preference to have to use Liberalism on Scientific Method, but it is not the end of the world if we do so.

However, it would be best if we could manually research Astronomy before we have to decide whether to take Scientific Method with Liberalism or whether we can continue manually researching for a bit longer.


Caravels

It was just a thought/suggestion, you're shooting it down with much more vigour than you need to.

Irgy is right, I was too harsh on his idea. I apologise.

But since I like arguing anyway...

Apparently, that makes two of us...

Of course I don't know what we'd replace, because I don't know what we're building, it's all I can manage to try and fix this test game at the moment

Since I have looked at the saved game, may I suggest the following build queue alteration for Sugar Daddy, to fit in a Caravel? I will update my earlier message to match this suggested change.

Sugar Daddy: T240: We ummm, have a Citizen Specialist hired. Maybe we can turn him into a Merchant for 3 turns, pretty please? T243: Complete the Confucian Monastary and build a Caravel, after which we will build a Courthouse. Now that we have our Confucian Monastary built, we can get a bonus Flask if we switch the Merchant to a Scientist, as we will make exactly 10 Flasks by hiring a Scientist (10 base Flasks * 10% Monastary's Flask bonus = 11 Flasks).