SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

Uneventfully arrived to 250. Uploaded, so you can see by yourself.
Sal has Nationalism in monopoly and we're still in monopoly for paper.

In-game log:
Spoiler :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 950 AD to 1050 AD:

Turn 240, 950 AD: Buddhism has spread in Mystic.
Turn 240, 950 AD: Buddhism has spread in Risaia.
Turn 240, 950 AD: Gandhi converts to Buddhism!
Turn 240, 950 AD: Tokugawa has made peace with Zara Yaqob!
Turn 240, 950 AD: Tokugawa has declared war on Mehmed II!
Turn 240, 950 AD: Enrico Fermi (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 241, 960 AD: You have discovered Drama!
Turn 241, 960 AD: You have discovered Engineering!
Turn 241, 960 AD: The borders of Goldfish have expanded!

Turn 242, 970 AD: Gandhi adopts Theocracy!
Turn 242, 970 AD: Grt Person Farm celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 243, 980 AD: The borders of Delhi have expanded!
Turn 243, 980 AD: Grt Person Farm celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 243, 980 AD: Robert E. Lee (Great General) has been born in Madrid (Isabella)!
Turn 243, 980 AD: Isabella adopts Bureaucracy!
Turn 243, 980 AD: Isabella adopts Slavery!
Turn 243, 980 AD: Zara Yaqob has made peace with Mehmed II!

Turn 244, 990 AD: Justinian I has declared war on Isabella!
Turn 244, 990 AD: Barbarian's Axeman (5.00) vs Gandhi's Longbowman 1 (Bedrock) (6.00)
Turn 244, 990 AD: Combat Odds: 19.4%
Turn 244, 990 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 244, 990 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 244, 990 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 244, 990 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 244, 990 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 244, 990 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman 1 (Bedrock) has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!

Turn 245, 1000 AD: Gandhi converts to Confucianism!
Turn 245, 1000 AD: Barbarian's Axeman (5.00) vs Gandhi's Longbowman 1 (Bedrock) (7.50)
Turn 245, 1000 AD: Combat Odds: 6.2%
Turn 245, 1000 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 245, 1000 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 245, 1000 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 245, 1000 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 245, 1000 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman 1 (Bedrock) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 245, 1000 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 245, 1000 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 245, 1000 AD: Gandhi's Longbowman 1 (Bedrock) has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!

Turn 246, 1010 AD: You have trained a Longbowman in Delhi. Work has now begun on Buddhist Missionary.
Turn 246, 1010 AD: You have trained Confucian Missionary in Three Clams. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 246, 1010 AD: Mehmed II adopts Vassalage!
Turn 246, 1010 AD: Mehmed II adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 247, 1020 AD: Gandhi adopts Pacifism!
Turn 247, 1020 AD: John Stuart Mill (Great Merchant) has been born in Medina (Saladin)!

Turn 248, 1030 AD: Tokugawa has 100 gold available for trade.
Turn 248, 1030 AD: Mehmed II has 6 gold per turn available for trade.
Turn 248, 1030 AD: You have discovered Astronomy!
Turn 248, 1030 AD: Zara Yaqob adopts Caste System!

Turn 249, 1040 AD: Mystic will grow to size 7 on the next turn.

Turn 250, 1050 AD: Mystic has grown to size 7.
Turn 250, 1050 AD: Justinian I has 340 gold available for trade.
I left all the units with full movement. No go to, i hope. SM is due in 10 turns at 0%.
The caravel is on his way to Ivory T. with a Confu Mis. too late, the resolution is just appeared. next one, maybe.

Izzy made short work of Justy galleys with her triremes, so no worries for now.
Yes, there're more ships heading East, but it will be a long trip.
 
Uploaded, so you can see by yourself.
Of course, I will be able to see.

But there are probably people on our team who have access to read the thread but not download the save. So, the more details that you can provide for them, the better.


Also, as the previous UP player to the next UP player, do you have any recommendations for me?
 
Of course, I will be able to see.

But there are probably people on our team who have access to read the thread but not download the save. So, the more details that you can provide for them, the better.


Also, as the previous UP player to the next UP player, do you have any recommendations for me?
Not many, i think, since i don't really know who played those 20 turns :)

Tomorrow i'll try to summarize all my (?!?) TS. Sleep on it.
 
T250 (1050 AD) - T270 PPP

Initial Comments
I will wait for BLubz to give us a summary of his turnset before giving a briefing on the "current situation."

Without an updated test saved game, I'll just be listing build orders without turn-completion dates. Oh well, the pace of the game seems like it will likely outpace our ability to keep the test saved game updated...

Hopefully, others will be willing to provide feedback to me while I play.


Military Unit Promotions
Any Naval Unit that has a Promotion will get a Combat I Promotion immediately. Almost all Naval Fights will be done on the defensive, so it makes no sense to save our Naval Promotions. Land Fights are usually chosen by us, so except for designated-defender units (like those in Cities on Zara's borders), I am fine with our current practice of delaying their Promotions until a Promotion is needed.

That said, I'll almost certainly Promote all units in the Barbs' Land Area, since the units will be shortly entering combat.


Build Orders and Citizen Allocations
Delhi: T250: Switch to working 2 Mines to get the Observatory in 8 turns instead of 14 turns. T258: We should complete our Observatory and will now hire more Scientist Specialists. Build Observatory (finish it) -> Hindu Missionary -> Hindu Missionary -> Buddhist Temple

Silverado: Build Forge (finish it) -> Taoist Monastary -> Buddhist Temple -> Courthouse Temporarily fire Scientists so that we can complete the Taoist Monastary before Scientific Method is in (presumably, BLubz queued it us so that we could still build Taoist Missionaries after Scientific Method from a City other than Riverdale, our gifting City)

Riverdale: Grow to Size 12 in 3 turns. T253: Hire 2 Artists so that we are running 4 Artist Specialists. Build Theatre (finish it) -> Courthouse (finish it) -> Market -> Hindu Temple

Bedrock: T250: Stop working a Des Stone for 3 Hammers. Consider working a PRiv Irr square in order to get the same Forge Hammer bonus as we currently have. Either that or temporarily work more GIrr squares to grow 1 Size, so that we can still hire some Scientists while growing the City's Size. Build Courthouse (finish it) -> Confucian Missionary for the Northern Barb City -> Confucian Missionary for Justinian -> Harbour (we need the Health here badly due to a lack of Freshwater and the Flood Plains) -> Buddhist Temple -> Market

Wheaties: T262: We will soon complete Angkor Wat, so switch to a different build item before we complete it. Build Buddhist Monastary (we need a Missionary-pumping City once Scientific Method expires the building of Monastaries) -> Buddhist Missionaries -> Continue to build most of Angkor Wat -> Courthouse -> Buddhist Temple

Grt Person Farm: Hire or Fire a Scientist, so that we are making an even # of GPP. Build Jewish Monastary -> Courthouse (finish it) -> Harbour (for Health)
Risaia: Build Forge (finish it) -> Courthouse -> Buddhist Temple
Crabs: Hire or Fire a Scientist, so that we are making an even # of GPP. Build Forge (complete it) -> Temples (for Happiness) -> Courthouse

Three Clams: Hire or Fire a Scientist, so that we are making an even # of GPP. Build Forge (complete it) -> Courthouse -> Buddhist Temple

Sugar Daddy: Build Courthouse (finish it) -> Galleons

Goldfish: Build Buddhist Monastary (finish it) -> Theatre -> Forge (finish it) -> Temples if Religions were spread here or a Library

Ivory Towers: Switch the Priest to a Scientist. Build Confucian Missionary (finish it) -> Forge -> Courthouse

Mystic: Switch the DesH Mine to a Scientist. Build Forge (finish it) -> Buddhist Temple -> Courthouse


Priority Worker Actions
Get Grassland Farms created for Mystic.
Get a Plains Farm up by Wheaties.
Get Farms up anywhere else that we could use them.


Barb City Wars
It seems that we have 3 Longbowmen, 3 Macemen, and 2 Catapults all stacked on the same square as each other on the Barb Cities' Land Area. Thanks, Irgy, for building them, and thanks, BLubz, for stacking them together safely! This stack will slowly push forward and will try to capture the northern Barb City.


Other Important Things to do, not necessarily in this order
1. Bribe Zara into a war with Mehmed as soon as their Peace treaty wears off.
2. Spread Confucianism to Isabella and hope that she Converts on her own.
3. Spread Confucianism to Justinian (if we want to be able to control him in a war against Isabella, he needs to have at least one Confucian City).
4. Ask Justinian and Isabella for small Gifts of Gold.
5. We will get a Great Person next turn in Delhi. Strongly consider starting a Golden Age and running even more Specialists everywhere than we are now.
6. If Mehmed and Saladin meet, see if Saladin can be bribed into a war before their Shared Religion bonus kicks in.
7. As usual, watch for Resource Trades, Tech Trades, Changing Attitude Levels, and newly-appearing Fist ("hands full") icons.
8. A Galley costs 155 Gold to upgrade to a Galleon, so I'd rather not do so. Instead, we can build some in Sugar Daddy.
9. Unload Fast Worker 4 on the Barb City Land Area so that it can get to work on building a Fort there.
 
Oh well, the pace of the game seems like it will likely outpace our ability to keep the test saved game updated...

Speaking of which, here's the latest attempt. Differences in food/hammers/whip-unhappiness (which is what I had written down) listed below. Values are what to do to the test game to make it match the save:
* Riverdale: -1food +1hammer
* Wheaties: +1food
* Great Person Farm: +2food -18 hammers
* Risaia: +7food -25hammers
* Crabs: +1food
* Sugardaddy: +2hammers
* Ivory: +6food -3hammers
* Mystic: +1food (which means +1pop as well)
* All other cities are exactly correct.

Whip happiness levels are all correct at least.

I really thought I'd be able to do better than that, but it's not as easy as it seems. I got burned usually just by not knowing how much food is left in the granary after growing. Riverdale's hammers ended up impossible of because the OR bonus skipped over the right hammer value on the last turn. And so on. I can get any one city right, but getting them all right in the same run is going to take me more time than I've got. I can undoubtably do a bit better than the above (which is still a fair improvement over the last test save), but honestly I think it's going to be easier to make those adjustments through the next few turns than to start again to try and do this one better.

Next time if I'm going to update the test save I'm going to make exact notes as I go, it's just too hard to fix otherwise.

It doesn't help that my daughter is eating my targets and stabbing in the neck with my pen either :) She's being a good girl though really.
 

Attachments

Speaking of which, here's the latest attempt...
Whip happiness levels are all correct at least.
THANK YOU!

Your dedication to the task is much appreciated!


Next time if I'm going to update the test save I'm going to make exact notes as I go, it's just too hard to fix otherwise.
Let's hope that BLubz did so himself or that he has an excellent memory!


It doesn't help that my daughter is eating my targets and stabbing in the neck with my pen either :) She's being a good girl though really.
It sounds like you've got a little Montezuma on your hands. :) Or perhaps a Catherine, if you want to pick a female Leader.
 
Sorry guys for not being able to actually play...

I can only read the thread sporadically (as you can see from *very late* replies).
Sorry, but I have no time to figure out what is going on to actually write a PPP. All my free time is for getting stuff organized (I am still living in an hotel driving a rented car...).

I can make time to play a *very* *very* detailed PPP that someone else writes, but that is not the point, right? Well... it may actually cause me to understand what is going on a little, but I am not sure how much time this will stick given my current schedule...
 
OK, you wont believe it, but I actually opened the save!

A couple of questions:

1) I see we have a conquest party on the barbarian continent near the Byzantine empire. I guess you think that there is one of the special resources there. BTW, what special resources do we still need? (Yes I can find it out myself, but it is quicker to ask). Anyway, we are not really sure that the needed-resource is really there. There could be another barbarian empire out there...

2) Why are we running caste system when we don't use more than 2 specialists?
 
Why should our troops be on the tip-of-the-continent?
If they are already there, shouldn't they be, say, attacking something?
If not, WTH are they doing there?
 
A couple of questions
Great! You can often learn by asking questions. Sometimes, by asking questions, you can draw out answers that others were not aware of or were not expecting. So whenever you have questions, feel free to ask away!


BTW, what special resources do we still need?
Fur. The first message in this thread talks about how the Barbarians are "heavily guarding the only source of Fur in the world."


1) I see we have a conquest party on the barbarian continent near the Byzantine empire. I guess you think that there is one of the special resources there.
We don't know for sure if the Fur Resource is there. HOWEVER, a few things make us think that there could be something special about that Barb-controlled area:
1. The northern Barb City has Culture in it that has expanded the City's borders and this situation was the case when we first found that City. This fact would lead us to believe that the City was "placed" on the map at the beginning of the game, as generally, Barb Cities' Cultural levels won't expand for Barb Cities that spawn partway through the game.
AND
2. It's an island that is reachable before Astronomy. We've pretty much explored (or traded World Maps for) all of the land that can be reached pre-Astronomy, so this location is the only area that is "Barb controlled" i.e. not shared with an AI that can be reached. For a Cultural game, you generally will not research Astronomy, so having the Barb City (we can see that there are at least 2 Barb Cities there, actually) reachable pre-Astronomy is "fair" for those playing for a Cultural game.
AND
3. The land area really looks engineered. From what is visible, it is almost all flat Grassland with a row of Peaks. Totally World-buildered.


Anyway, we are not really sure that the needed-resource is really there. There could be another barbarian empire out there...
Absolutely. So, we've built a Caravel (although it seems to have detoured to send a Missionary to Isabella before it goes exploring).

We'll also soon start building Galleons in Sugar Daddy. We're the only player that knows Astronomy, but many AIs have Optics and thus are only 1 tech behind us in that regard.


2) Why are we running caste system when we don't use more than 2 specialists?
A great question and that's one reason why earlier in the game, we switched back into Slavery, since only one City was running 3 Scientists.

At present, we are running Scientists in Cities without Libraries and are running 3, 4, 5, or 6 Scientists in many other Cities. Well, in the real game, anyway. I'm not sure about in the test saved game as I haven't had a chance to look at that yet (I'd closed the game by the time that Irgy uploaded the save).


So, at least as of T250 in the real game, we are fully leveraging Caste System and are combining it with Confucianism (which is in all of our Cities), Pacifism, and Representation.


I can make time to play a *very* *very* detailed PPP that someone else writes
I'm low on time these days, but I could probably take a stab at doing one for part of a turnset (not 20 turns' worth, though). However, getting a relatively-accurate test saved game would be a pre-condition, and we're one turnset behind in updating the test saved game (BLubz just finished playing 20 turns that come after the latest test saved game). So, if BLubz isn't able to work some magic in updating our test saved game to have relative accuracy to the real game, then at best I can provide are a few pages' worth of higher-level suggestions.

Unfortunately, that solution is probably not going to work for you if you are pressed for time, but it's the best that I can offer without a relatively-precise test saved game to work from.


Why should our troops be on the tip-of-the-continent?
It was the safest spot to unload them, as the Galley would never need to end its turn outside of an AI City and thus could never get ambushed by a Barb Galley.

The reason for "gathering" the military units was for the exact reason that BLubz encountered--he sent 2 units off by their lonesome and suffered two attacks. We got lucky by winning those 2 fights, but had we lost one, the Barbs probably would have kept throwing units at our second unit until both were wiped out.

Since we have a very minimalistic army there as it is (8 units total), losing 2 of those units would have been devastating.

Luck saved the day this time, although BLubz will try to convince us that it was a Drill Promotion that saved us. ;) :lol:


If they are already there, shouldn't they be, say, attacking something?
BLubz already started them on their way. They've moved for the last 2 turns towards the closest Barb City.

Presumably, the stack will keep moving until it is next to the City, possibly standing on a Hills square if there is one, while we Bombard the City's defences down to 0%.
 
Superstition
I dug up this old message of BLubmuz' in a prior SGOTM game (game #9).
BLubmuz, do you have any further opinions on whether or not this superstition of yours works?

I discovered another thing: often IBT the advisor gives a pop-up asking to build settlers - mainly, or else.
This is particularly annoying, mainly in the late game. But answer yes in the early game
The RNG can take count of this in some way.
Then, go in the city build queue and simply delete the settler or anything the advisor can have put in queue. Better if you do it after a couple turns.
I noticed the game will go better doing this. I have also a suspect that with RE on this can be even more important.
When we'll have not great problems with a large empire, we can just say "i'm the one in charge", but in the early game let's answer yes.


As an example of a Superstition proving to be helpful
I will say that in a previous Civ version (Civ 3? Civ 1?), it DID matter when negotiating with an AI as to what you responded to them when refusing their trade proposal.

In particular, if you simply told them that you were not interested, you would be penalized, but if you first said "Care to negotiate?" and THEN said that you weren't interested, you were not penalized.

Fortunately, this goofiness was not ported over to Civ 4, but it does demonstrate an example where "superstitious thinking" CAN actually lead to better results when the superstition is actually coded into the game.

Note that I claim that this functionality was "goofy" because there was an obvious method of avoiding it, but the method to avoid the penalty simply forced a player to go through an extra screen of mouse-clicking, while the interface gave no indication of incurring the penalty by not performing the extra clicking.
 
Airships vs the Barbs
Actually, reading the Fifth Element SGOTM 9 thread game brings up a neat idea:
Building Airships.

Certainly, if we were to attack the Barb Cities with a few airships to weaken their top stack defenders, we'd have a great time in taking their Cities.

Certainly, the northern Barb City, based on where its Cultural Borders show where it should exist, makes it JUST within range of an Airship.

Chances are that we won't get Physics (the tech that enables Airships) before we can capture that Barb City, but if things aren't going well there in our battles, then Airships rebased to Trebizond could save the day.


Airships vs Mehmed
Otherwise, Airships will definitely help us to capture Mehmed's Cities by using Isabella's Cities as their base of operations.


Mehmed's votes are a write-off, so we just have to be certain to capture one of his Cities with a Silk Resource in it. After that point, if an AI vassalizes him, we won't care that much.

Still, it would be best if we could unite the world against him in a Holy War, so being not extremely aggressive in our City-capturing would probably be the best approach to keeping him from vassalizing to another AI.


Airships vs Naval Units
Airships can also help to protect us from Privateers. While a Privateer can only be bombarded once by an Airship, down from 6 Hitpoints down to 4.8 Hitpoints, meaning that the Privateers would be tough to kill without Chemsitry-based Naval units, it is certainly an advantage that we have at our disposal that takes us from being completely defenseless against Privateers to possibly standing a chance against them.

Also, an important point to consider is that we can move our Airships into AI Cities, such as the Cities on the western landmass. An Airship can perform a Recon Mission to spot AI Privateers and, after spotting one, can bombard the Privateer.

Doing so while the Privateers are near the AIs has the advantage of the OTHER AIs attacking that wounded Privateer on our behalf. So, the fact that there are multiple AIs crammed together in the west, combined with the usage of Airships, can actually significantly help in reducing the effectiveness of Privateers used against us.

Obviously, we'll try to trade for Chemistry later in the game, in order to build either Frigates or Privateers of our own, but since we are going to try and Lightbulb Mass-Media-beeline techs, it means that we will have to delay learning Chemistry, in order to avoid "unlocking" Chemistry and Biology as Lightbulbable techs that would have higher Lightbulbing priorities than some of our Mass-Media-beeline techs.
 
Dear Dhoom, my "superstition" unfortunately cannot be proven to be true, but i noticed that in several games, if you answer "yes" to the advisors, some possible trouble can be avoided and you can instead have some good surprise.
This is particularly true with "random events" turned on. Just play the early 100 turns in a game, try to reproduce the same moves and answer "yes" in an attempt and "no" in another. With all those random factors we don't know deeply, since they are in the deep code, better a simple rule even if it can be sound as "superstitious". Don't tell you never cross your fingers ;).

eheh in SG9 the Airship let us circumnavigate before 200 BC, with barely Sailing in the pocket. Not to mention the contacts and trades we made. Thanks to me, sure. Pity i made other mistakes, but in the early game i was just great.

Mehemed Silk:
You was right about the barb city with silk: it should be Chinook, in fact i can only see the barb borders but not the city name.

I think we must set up a good invasion force and some galleon and yes, some airship to take that city. Airships are pretty expensive, but they can spare us the need to build cats or trebs and to transport them. They can be based in any city of any Civ which we share OB with.

Unfortunately this is my first CIV activity today, but a quick read of the thread this morning. I'll try to summarize my TS later if i can. Surely tomorrow.

Pity i can't transfer my airforce from the game of "The road to War" i'm playing those days (not much, BTW) have you ever tried it? it's fun. The funniest thing is the DCM, so if you got a stack of artillery, you just move it close to the target. Even if they won't have a move left, you just attack with another faster unit and they reduce the defenders to dust. And artillery, Navy and Air Force have lethal bombardment. Great!
Diplomacy? No, i'm playing with Historical events. No diplo. Well, "the ultimate level of diplomacy", according to some statesman. Too easy with UK, With Italy there's more challenge. If you don't mind to be friendly with Adolf. It's a game after all.
 
Superstition
i noticed that in several games, if you answer "yes" to the advisors, some possible trouble can be avoided and you can instead have some good surprise.
Okay, I'll have to try doing so. I can count on myself to remember to cancel whatever build item was suggested by an advisor, but I feel that if anyone else on the team were to follow this approach, they would have to decide for themselves if they have the attention-span to remember to remove that extra build item from the build queue.


Circumnavigation and Airships
eheh in SG9 the Airship let us circumnavigate before 200 BC, with barely Sailing in the pocket. Not to mention the contacts and trades we made. Thanks to me, sure. Pity i made other mistakes, but in the early game i was just great.
Indeed it was a neat trick. Fortunately, we also got relatively early Circumnavigation in this game, too.

However, we can certainly "abuse" this trick to get a map of most of Mehmed's lands just by sending an Airship to Isabella's Cities to perform "Recon" missions and thus "scout out" Mehmed's land area for us.


Military Units
I think we must set up a good invasion force and some galleon and yes, some airship to take that city. Airships are pretty expensive, but they can spare us the need to build cats or trebs and to transport them. They can be based in any city of any Civ which we share OB with.
Once the Liberalism tech is grabbed, we'll have less of an immediate need for collecting as many Great Scientists as we can get. At that point, we can transition from Pacifism to Theocracy, mostly for the Diplo relations but also to help us with getting solid military units for capturing Mehmed's Cities.

I think that Representation will still have to be favoured over Police State for most of the turns, but we could certainly consider running Police State and growing our Cities for a short 5-turn period, followed by running Representation and hiring even more Scientists, with our larger-sized Cities.

Still, this stuff should probably be left until after Liberalism, so it probably won't happen during the current turnset unless the AIs force our hands by demanding Paper.

Mehmed is up to 10 Cities now, which is a great thing, as it means that we can capture a few of his Cities before he decides to become someone else's vassal. We certainly DO NOT want him as a vassal.


Road to War
Pity i can't transfer my airforce from the game of "The road to War" i'm playing those days (not much, BTW) have you ever tried it?
Is that a Mod or Scenario that I would have to download? I don't remember seeing it in the main list of BTS Content or under the Scenarios section of BTS.

Maybe it's a Warlords or Vanialla thing?


Lethal Bombardment
And artillery, Navy and Air Force have lethal bombardment.
Do you mean that when you Bombard a City's defenses, the units get wounded along with the Cultural Defense dropping?

Or do you mean more like Cho-ko-nus, how they offer collateral damage but can also kill units (while Catapults and Trebuchets cannot kill units)?


Scenario Talk
Diplomacy? No, i'm playing with Historical events. No diplo. Well, "the ultimate level of diplomacy", according to some statesman. Too easy with UK, With Italy there's more challenge. If you don't mind to be friendly with Adolf. It's a game after all.
Hmmm, sounds like a World War II type of scenario. I do remember playing one such scenario that had Cities in Europe and Africa and the map seemed to be centred around the Mediterainian. There were different Reichs, like the French Reich... but perhaps I'm thinking of a different scenario.
 
:lol: in SGOTM 9 Fifth Element had about 60 pages of posts.
Here we have more than 120 and still going strong.

Still couldn't find the part about the Airships. How did you get them so early?

Spent all day looking for a car, but still haven't got it. At least I found an apartment... I will not live in the street! :lol:
 
Many Messages
:lol: in SGOTM 9 Fifth Element had about 60 pages of posts.
Here we have more than 120 and still going strong.
Indeed, we can almost consider it to be a side-competition at this point. We've definitely broken the top 20 records for the most messages and the most thread views in SGOTM threads.


Airships
Still couldn't find the part about the Airships. How did you get them so early
SGOTM 9 (in which I did not play, this SGOTM is my first one) appears to have started all of the players (including the AIs) with several "advanced technologies." Part of the game's strategy involved being able to get to advanced techs after these techs (through manual research, The Oracle, or Liberalism) earlier than normal, while other parts of the strategy involved the benefits and costs of knowing some of these advanced techs.

One such cost was the fact that teams started off knowing Scientific Method, meaning that they couldn't make use out of buildings like The Great Library and Monastaries.

One benefit was the ability to build Airships relatively early on in the game.


Car
Spent all day looking for a car, but still haven't got it.
Are you able to use mass transit as an alternative? I imagine that parking costs are going to be astronomical in such a large city.


No more Living out of a Cardboard Box
At least I found an apartment... I will not live in the street! :lol:
Congrats! Will you start cooking for yourself soon or will you still be "eating out" a lot?
 
Temporary City Growth--Delaying Scientific Method on purpose
What do you think of the idea to temporarily put a bit more emphasis on City Growth for the next few turns?

That way, we will run a few less Scientists in Cities that can afford to grow (i.e. grow in Cities that aren't limited by their Happiness or Healthiness caps).

Doing so will allow us to drag out the completion of Scientific Method by maybe 3 turns or so, while "investing" in future Scientific output potential: having more citizens in several Cities that can turn into Scientists when we spawn our Golden Age.


Further, we'll get more Hammers and Flasks out of our Monastaries and we'll get a few more turns worth of The Parthenon's bonus in Cities that will continue to run Scientist Specialists and that have Wonders like in Delhi.


Finally, we should get time to finish off our "last round" of Monastaries, such as a Jewsih Monastary and a Taoist Monastary, so that we'll have at least one City of each Religion that we own which can spawn the relevant Missionaries after Scientific Method is learned.


Great Person for a Golden Age
Okay, a Great Person is due in Delhi on the next turn.

Probably within 10 turns, we'll get another one in Grt Person Farm (it says something like 4 or 5 turns now, but that amount will increase once the one in Delhi spawns).


So, there is a good chance that we will get a Great Person to spawn a Golden Age.


So, if we accept the idea to grow the Cities a bit, then we can wait to spawn the Golden Age until the second half of this next turnset, say, after about 10 turns of play or so.


Great Artists?
I'm even considering switching from Scientists to Artists in a City or two--maybe Grt Person Farm would be a good candidate, since it already gets some Great Artist production from having the National Epic. This way, we could plan on having a couple of Great Artists (possibly, one from Riverdale) to help us Lightbulb Radio or Mass Media.


I just checked--Lightbulbing with Great Artists will require around 8 to 9 Great Artists just to give us Radio. Clearly, since a Great Artist cannot invest as many Flasks into a tech as a Great Scientist can, its use is not AS valuable as a Great Scientist in terms of pure Flask output when Lightbulbing.


Great Scientists
However, there still is a savings to be had on our beeline tech path by using Great Artists on either Radio or Mass Media, while any Great Scientists that we generate which would be used to Lightbulb a tech after Electricity really will have no practical application at all towards our beeline techs.

At best, if we are able to trade for Gunpowder and Chemistry after we learn Electricity, than a Great Scientist could be used to Lightbulb part of Biology. While the extra population points would be NICE, they likely won't be useful for us to win, so it would probably be best just to use such a Great Scientist as one of the "Final Four."

So, while running Artist Specialists in place of Scientist Specialists gives us slightly less Flask output (4 per Artist instead of 6 per Scientist under Representation), I am thinking that if we'll be able to get sufficient Great People for the end of the game, then Lightbulbing a couple of Great Artists could be a reasonable way to make use of extra Great People.
 
Divine Right
Zara will get Divine Right in approximately 5 turns. I say "approximately" because that guy has been known to toy with his Science Slider within our game.


Anyway, let's assume that we can get Divine Right in trade from him. We're up on him by Optics and Philosophy, two techs that the three western AIs all already know, so with the possibility of having to throw in some Gold, we could hopefully make the trade for Divine Right before Zara starts to build a Wonder and thus refuses to trade us the tech.


So, do we want the tech? It's not like we'll be able to trade for any more of our beeline techs.


The only usefulness of grabbing this tech would be for its Wonders, which are indeed reasonably nice Wonders: Versailles and The Spiral Minaret.


Where would we build these Wonders?
I suggest that The Spiral Minaret should be built in Delhi, which has the best production overall but is not eligible for building Versailles, as you can't build Versailles in the City which contains your Palace.

I would also suggest that Versailles should be built in one of our highest-production core Cities. That would likely mean putting it in Wheaties.

Counting Forge bonuses, here are the approximate Hammers that we can make:
Wheaties = 24 (21 after Scientific Method)
Silverado = 20 (17 after Scientific Method)
Sugar Daddy = 20 (17 after Scientific Method)


Unfortunately, none of these Cities really are all that centred within our landmass.


To move or not to move our Palace?
If we consider the possibility of moving our Palace, say to Mehmed's area, then a location like Silverado could work. Otherwise, it's not really that much closer to any Cities than Delhi is, so if we don't move our Palace, then Silverado probably isn't the best choice for Versailles.

We are pretty unlikely to find the time to move our Palace before the end of the game, so let's not worry about that possibility.


Silverado COULD get a bigger boost to Hammers during a Golden Age than the other Cities, since its Hammers are spread out across multiple squares.


Sugar Daddy, while having the lowest Hammer output potential output of our options, would make a COUPLE of Cities a BIT closer to "a Palace equivalent building (Versailles)" than the other two locations.

However, Sugar Daddy is MAXED OUT at 20 Hammers per turn, while the other two locations can still "grow into" a few more Hammers per turn.


Therefore, since LOCATION of Versailles isn't going to have a major effect if we do not move our Palace, I'm going to suggest that we build it in our highest-Hammer-output City, Wheaties.


The Implications of picking Wheaties
The completion of the Buddhist Monastary in Wheaties would co-incide perfectly with when Zara learns Divine Right, and if he delays learning it for a turn or two, we can just get a bit more Failure Gold in Wheaties by partially building more of the Angkor Wat.


Again, if we fail at building either Wonder, then we'll get some useful Failure Gold.
 
The Spiral Minaret--Let's put it in Silverado
Where would we build these Wonders?
I suggest that The Spiral Minaret should be built in Delhi, which has the best production overall but is not eligible for building Versailles, as you can't build Versailles in the City which contains your Palace.
Actually, upon further consideration, Delhi is a poor choice of locations for building The Spiral Minaret.

While we do make a lot of Hammers when working the Mines while we are running Bureauracy, the ultimate goal for Delhi is to complete the Observatory and then run as many Scientists as we can, to use the Oxford University and other Flask-multiplying buildings.

So, we won't be working the Mines here for long and thus Delhi won't have a lot of Hammer output.

The potential 2 GPP from building yet another Wonder here is dwarfed by the loss of GPP that we would lose by working Mines instead of Scientist Specialists.


Now, since a Golden Age will bring out the true power of Silverado: an extra 11 base Hammers per turn for 10 turns, Silverado would be the best choice for building The Spiral Minaret.


That way, Sugar Daddy can stick with its planned approach of building our fleet of Galleons.
 
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