Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
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- Aug 12, 2006
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One more suggestion: If an AI Demands a tech, gladly give it to them! We would welcome the +1 Diplo relations and it's not like they can beat us to Liberalism anymore! 
SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Great TS, Dhoom 
So, Audaces Fortuna Juvat! Radio from Lib on Emperor is not an easy achievement!
Now we need to regroup and capitalize this great performance of our team.
I updated page 1 and i've planned 2 short TSs for UT and Mitch, to give you the last crucial turns.
Probably we need to re-schedule this, since i would like to have you starting in the turn before we learn MM. Do i got it right that we need 16 turns?
I think that now it's time to test how can the gift/let-the-city-being-captured work. Time is short.
I think also that we must try to get the best from the trades, with banking in mind for the next round. Also, gathering some money will avoid us worries to go in strike.
So, Audaces Fortuna Juvat! Radio from Lib on Emperor is not an easy achievement!
Now we need to regroup and capitalize this great performance of our team.
I updated page 1 and i've planned 2 short TSs for UT and Mitch, to give you the last crucial turns.
Probably we need to re-schedule this, since i would like to have you starting in the turn before we learn MM. Do i got it right that we need 16 turns?
I think that now it's time to test how can the gift/let-the-city-being-captured work. Time is short.
I think also that we must try to get the best from the trades, with banking in mind for the next round. Also, gathering some money will avoid us worries to go in strike.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
Okay, I got it. And I have off work through the 10th and no school so I'll hopefully have a some time to play my 7 turns. Is there going to be an updated test game?
I'll try to at least get some preliminary plans out tonight.
I'll try to at least get some preliminary plans out tonight.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
alright, so we can have all our team ready to the final push.
I opened the save and noticed we're 18 turns away from MM @0%. Sure we can go @100% for 2 turns at least with the money we can gather from trades. We'll also gain some money by conquering Mehmed cities.
Speaking of that war, if our troops will gather on the Forested hill Dhoom marked, they will need too many turns to march to Chinook. I think it's better reload them and unload 3 galleons to take Chinook. They should be enough.
Unless The plan is to take another city somewhere E to Chinook and take Chinook after it. But Chinook is a large city, so it would need many turns to go out of revolt.
Go on with those blimps, we need them soon!
Noticed that the barb cities come with well developed cottages, this will surely help our economy. So i propose to settle whales, to gain some more pop. We're only 1 tech away from victory and i think (but you can prove i'm wrong) we have more to gain than to lose by settling that city.
I opened the save and noticed we're 18 turns away from MM @0%. Sure we can go @100% for 2 turns at least with the money we can gather from trades. We'll also gain some money by conquering Mehmed cities.
Speaking of that war, if our troops will gather on the Forested hill Dhoom marked, they will need too many turns to march to Chinook. I think it's better reload them and unload 3 galleons to take Chinook. They should be enough.
Unless The plan is to take another city somewhere E to Chinook and take Chinook after it. But Chinook is a large city, so it would need many turns to go out of revolt.
Go on with those blimps, we need them soon!
Noticed that the barb cities come with well developed cottages, this will surely help our economy. So i propose to settle whales, to gain some more pop. We're only 1 tech away from victory and i think (but you can prove i'm wrong) we have more to gain than to lose by settling that city.
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
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Assaulting Mehmed's Cities
However, if we want to build The UN in Mehmed's lands, we'll need to capture one of his Cities that is NOT the Silk City.
We also have to make sure that this City is not Toledo, as Toledo is:
1. The focal point of all of Mehmed's forces, so we'll have trouble holding onto it for The UN's purpose
AND
2. Is also the focal point of Isabella's forces, and we don't want her capturing The UN from Mehmed, do we?
This City also needs to be captured such that it can COME OUT OF REVOLT around the time that we know Mass Media.
The Silk City only needs to be captured later, such that it can come out of revolt around the time of the Diplo Victory vote. I'm not sure how much later that will be, but at least 5 turns later and perhaps closer to 10 turns.
Regardless, we need another City before the Silk City if we want to gift The UN to Mehmed, while we don't need the Silk City until somewhere between 5 to 10 turns after we complete The UN.
Our Economy
If a Civ decides to cancel a Resource Trade deal in exchange for their Gold per Turn, it will hurt us greatly.
After we capture a couple of more Cities, it is quite possible that we'll be facing a Strike if we do not save up all of our Gold from now on. Wouldn't it be terrible to make great strides in our war against Mehmed only to have our Military Units in-the-field get disbanded right before our very eyes?
We're near the bring of economic collapse. Sure, we can get Gold from the odd trade, but I'd rather only get Gold as part of a tech trade deal, not as the reason for trading.
If we, say, decided to adopt Mercantilism (which we might need to do just to get Toku to a Friendly status), then we'd be facing a Strike if we don't have a large Gold surplus saved up.
Tech Trading
We still have to worry about an AI getting Privateers, an AI switching into Liberalism, an AI getting to Rifling and deciding to attack us, etc. We have to make sure that we're going to benefit from the few tech trades that we make while ALSO considering the fact that we want to limit the benefits to the AIs as much as possible.
Besides, if we have a few AIs that HAVE some Gold available, then in an emergency, we can trade for that Gold. If we get all of that Gold now, then we won't have an emergency fund.
Research
Research is no longer our gating factor.
So, there is no need to rush to spend our deficit Gold on research. If we want to do so, we can just as easily do so when we're close to finishing a tech. During at least the first half and probably the first three quarters of the time spent on learning Mass Media, I am going to counsel that we save our Gold at a 0% Science Rate.
Gating Factors
If research isn't our gating factor, then slow-researching Mass Media can help us to drag out the time while we get other factors into place.
What other gating factors are there?
1. For example, we'll want sufficient Military Units in Mehmed's lands. One stack (by Toledo) can basically defend one of the GHJungle squares (say, the one south of the City so that if our units are wounded, they can retreat to Barcelon to heal within one turn, due to there being a Road of Isabella's on that square). This way, Mehmed will feel pressured into filling this City with his Military Units, which means that he won't use these units to counter our stacks elsewhere.
AND
2. We'll need to build sufficient Military Units and logistically transport them. We probably won't benefit from a Galley chain just yet, as it's only about 3 to 4 turns between our continent and a suitable drop-off point for units.
AND
3. However, once we've patiently amassed an army that is large enough to both capture and HOLD ONTO the City to the NE of that GUranium (due north of Cordoba), we'll need to think about building a Galleon chain to the Silk City. Likely, we'll never have enough Galleons on time, to build a chain then enitre way there, so we might just have a couple of chains near our continent that are 2 or 3 Galleons worth in terms of chain length.
AND
4. We'll still need to amass Military Units and avoid building Buildings (except for building Courthouses in captured Cities, it should be Military Units everywhere, all of the time, except for Buddhist Missionaries).
AND
5. We need to keep a priority on building Buddhist Missionaries in both Delhi and Grt Person Farm, as, other than Goldfish, these 2 Cities are the only Cities that can build them. Isabella will need a total of 3 Buddhist Cities in order for her convert to Buddhism. We'll need Buddhist Missionaries for every other City that we capture from Mehmed EXCEPT for a City that we plan to let him capture The UN in. But, it wouldn't hurt to put Buddhism in that City, in case he doesn't capture the City but we win in a head-to-head vote against Toku.
We'll lose the game if we win the Diplo Vote but don't have Buddhism in all of our Cities.
AND
6. We'll have to be careful about that Confucian Missionary in Isabella's lands.
Spreading it to Isabella is bad news.
Spreading it to a City that we want Mehmed to capture back from us is bad news.
Spreading it to any other City that we capture from Mehmed will never get a Temple built in it on time.
Spreading it to any other City that we capture from Mehmed won't even get us any Culture, Happiness, or any other benefit.
I'd rather just keep that Confucian Missionary alive in Isabella's lands, both as a scout and as a "backup" in case we feel that we need to make Isabella fully Confucian for some reason (likely related to The Apostolic Palace), but I honestly can't think of the scenario that will matter in time before The Apostolic Palace becomes obsolete. Still, it's nice to have it around.
AND
7. We should consider the possibility of making Saladin and Justnian Confucian... just not yet... we just want to have the possibility available to us within a turn or two of deciding to do so.
There are 2 Confucian Missionaries on the western continent.
One is near Trebizond and should probably Fortify in Trebizond. There's no way that we'll benefit from building a Confucian Temple in our Barb Cities at this stage of the game--better to build a military unit after a Courthouse is complete, either a land unit if we have a Galleon that can transport it or an Airship if we think that there will be time to use it. Failing both ideas, then Wealth is going to be the best build item in these isolated Cities, after Courthouses are complete.
The other Confucian Missionary is near the Saladin + Toku border. We should probably just turn that Missionary around (it is currently on an "automove" path to Trebizond--I forgot to cancel automoves before submitting the save, sorry--most are just on the western continent, but a few are on our continent, moving units to 1NE of Wheaties). We could park this Confucian Missionary in Goldfish, again saving it in case we feel the need to gift it to Saladin.
This "planning for what-if scenarios" with our Confucian Missionaries may or may not pay off, but it'll be far better than spreading Confucian Missionaries in the two western Barb Cities that never will see any value out of such a spreading mission.
AND
8. Our biggest gating factor are the Diplo relations. The less techs that we trade away, the more techs that the AIs can Demand or Ask for Help about, giving us free +1 Diplo Modifiers.
We'll have to keep an eye on who is who's Worst Enemy, but I think that at present, the only Worst Enemy relations are from Mehmed hating others or others hating Mehmed. So, CURRENTLY, the tech trading make-up will not limit us from agreeing to a tech trading Demand or Request for Help.
However, we do need to monitor the F4 -> GLANCE screen to see if a potential Worst Enemy scenario can develop. Basically, if you see any blue-coloured (Annoyed) or red-coloured (Furious) attitudes developing on that page where the 2 players involved so not count Mehmed as one of those players, then we need to pause play when a related Demand or Request for Help comes up, as we have to be very careful about these last-minute trades.
As I said, we right now should accept all Demands and Requests for Help, even demands/requests for Gold, which is another good reason not to collect all of the AIs' Gold, so that they can act as a "reserve fund" in case our Gold supply has to be given up for a +1 Diplo relationship point.
The REALLY tricky part with the Diplo relations is whether or not the AIs will like us MORE than they like Toku for a Secretary General vote.
Saladin is +10 with Toku, which is one more than Friendly. We are not yet Friendly with Saladin. Once we are Friendly with Saladin, Saladin will still vote for Toku until we are "Friendly with Saladin +1," at which point Saladin will abstain. We actually need to get Saladin to Friendly and then get +2 with Saladin, assuming that Saladin's relationship with Toku doesn't get altered, in order to get Saladin's vote.
Justinian is at +10 with Toku, but he really likes Toku a lot due to hidden modifiers. Justinian is at +13 with us, but he will still vote for Toku. Justinian, as long as he keeps a constant +10 relationship with Toku, will abstain in a vote once we are at +14 with Justinian. Justnian will vote for us in favour of Toku once we are at +15 with Justinian.
As you can see, one bad move Diplomatically can easily shift this tentative balance into an unwinnable Secretary General vote.
Our "way out" is to use one of Mehmed's Cities (like the City due north of Cordoba), but that means first having a sufficiently army gathered to avoid multiple losses in taking and holding onto that City. 9 Military Units plus Airship support from Cordoba should be enough units to march on the City.
AND
9. There are probably points that I did not think to mention.
Testing
Have you even started yet? If not, why not? Why sit here and bark about deadlines if you aren't committed to helping the team meet them faster by supporting us with your portion of keeping the test saved game updated? The test saved game updating process went extremely well until the ball landed in your court.
Can you get to work on updating it before the game is over, please?
Whales
If you want one more pop, we can fire some Scientists and work Coast squares in one of several different Cities. There. Done.
We certainly don't need the extra Resources, now that we captured a few from the western Barb Cities.
Further, if we were to settle Whales, not only would it not likely grow beyond a size-1 City, but even if it did, you're looking at a Size 2 City at most before the end of the game.
We can still get a Size 1 City by settling on the turn before a Diplo Vote, and if you want that theoretical second population point, follow my above suggestion of firing Scientists (who needs them after Mass Media, anyway) and growing a population point elsewhere.
Most importantly, if we settle Whales, we might throw away the option of building The UN in Riverdale using just 1 Great Engineer.
If we rush the war with Mehmed and we lose enough units against Mehmed, then Riverdale will be our ONLY option for The UN. It would be better to use just 1 Great Engineer rather than using up 2 when we barely, just barely, need that second Great Engineer because our Forest chop went to Whales instead of Riverdale.
So, we should not even consider Settling Whales until the end of the game.
IF YOU REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to settle a City for population points, wouldn't it be better to settle just north of Grt Person Farm? There are several GIrr squares that could be worked (instead of just 1 for the Whales location). There are even Resources that can be borrowed form other Cities, such as a GPig.
This way, we could take care of your population-based reason for settling Whales, doing so in a far more efficient manner by settling elsewhere, and we also wouldn't waste any Forest Chops that are better used in The UN.
So, can you please give up on your continued fascination with the idea of settling Whales? What is the reason, anyway? Do you perhaps have a tendency to fixate on big piles of shiny objects (silver)?
AIs' Gold
Leaving Gold in the AIs' hands allows us to later get some Gold from the Bank of Saladin, the Justinian Commerce House, or perhaps the Toku Merchant Exchange.
The Silk can be captured nearer to the end of the game. In fact, it will be easier to defend our Silk if we do so.
However, if we want to build The UN in Mehmed's lands, we'll need to capture one of his Cities that is NOT the Silk City.
We also have to make sure that this City is not Toledo, as Toledo is:
1. The focal point of all of Mehmed's forces, so we'll have trouble holding onto it for The UN's purpose
AND
2. Is also the focal point of Isabella's forces, and we don't want her capturing The UN from Mehmed, do we?
This City also needs to be captured such that it can COME OUT OF REVOLT around the time that we know Mass Media.
The Silk City only needs to be captured later, such that it can come out of revolt around the time of the Diplo Victory vote. I'm not sure how much later that will be, but at least 5 turns later and perhaps closer to 10 turns.
Regardless, we need another City before the Silk City if we want to gift The UN to Mehmed, while we don't need the Silk City until somewhere between 5 to 10 turns after we complete The UN.
Our Economy
Our Economy is in the tank. If one Civ goes into Mercantilism, we'll likely have 0 Gold per Turn at a 0% Science Rate.
If a Civ decides to cancel a Resource Trade deal in exchange for their Gold per Turn, it will hurt us greatly.
After we capture a couple of more Cities, it is quite possible that we'll be facing a Strike if we do not save up all of our Gold from now on. Wouldn't it be terrible to make great strides in our war against Mehmed only to have our Military Units in-the-field get disbanded right before our very eyes?
We're near the bring of economic collapse. Sure, we can get Gold from the odd trade, but I'd rather only get Gold as part of a tech trade deal, not as the reason for trading.
If we, say, decided to adopt Mercantilism (which we might need to do just to get Toku to a Friendly status), then we'd be facing a Strike if we don't have a large Gold surplus saved up.
Tech Trading
We still have to worry about an AI getting Privateers, an AI switching into Liberalism, an AI getting to Rifling and deciding to attack us, etc. We have to make sure that we're going to benefit from the few tech trades that we make while ALSO considering the fact that we want to limit the benefits to the AIs as much as possible.
Besides, if we have a few AIs that HAVE some Gold available, then in an emergency, we can trade for that Gold. If we get all of that Gold now, then we won't have an emergency fund.
Research
Research is no longer our gating factor.
So, there is no need to rush to spend our deficit Gold on research. If we want to do so, we can just as easily do so when we're close to finishing a tech. During at least the first half and probably the first three quarters of the time spent on learning Mass Media, I am going to counsel that we save our Gold at a 0% Science Rate.
Gating Factors
If research isn't our gating factor, then slow-researching Mass Media can help us to drag out the time while we get other factors into place.
What other gating factors are there?
1. For example, we'll want sufficient Military Units in Mehmed's lands. One stack (by Toledo) can basically defend one of the GHJungle squares (say, the one south of the City so that if our units are wounded, they can retreat to Barcelon to heal within one turn, due to there being a Road of Isabella's on that square). This way, Mehmed will feel pressured into filling this City with his Military Units, which means that he won't use these units to counter our stacks elsewhere.
AND
2. We'll need to build sufficient Military Units and logistically transport them. We probably won't benefit from a Galley chain just yet, as it's only about 3 to 4 turns between our continent and a suitable drop-off point for units.
AND
3. However, once we've patiently amassed an army that is large enough to both capture and HOLD ONTO the City to the NE of that GUranium (due north of Cordoba), we'll need to think about building a Galleon chain to the Silk City. Likely, we'll never have enough Galleons on time, to build a chain then enitre way there, so we might just have a couple of chains near our continent that are 2 or 3 Galleons worth in terms of chain length.
AND
4. We'll still need to amass Military Units and avoid building Buildings (except for building Courthouses in captured Cities, it should be Military Units everywhere, all of the time, except for Buddhist Missionaries).
AND
5. We need to keep a priority on building Buddhist Missionaries in both Delhi and Grt Person Farm, as, other than Goldfish, these 2 Cities are the only Cities that can build them. Isabella will need a total of 3 Buddhist Cities in order for her convert to Buddhism. We'll need Buddhist Missionaries for every other City that we capture from Mehmed EXCEPT for a City that we plan to let him capture The UN in. But, it wouldn't hurt to put Buddhism in that City, in case he doesn't capture the City but we win in a head-to-head vote against Toku.
We'll lose the game if we win the Diplo Vote but don't have Buddhism in all of our Cities.
AND
6. We'll have to be careful about that Confucian Missionary in Isabella's lands.
Spreading it to Isabella is bad news.
Spreading it to a City that we want Mehmed to capture back from us is bad news.
Spreading it to any other City that we capture from Mehmed will never get a Temple built in it on time.
Spreading it to any other City that we capture from Mehmed won't even get us any Culture, Happiness, or any other benefit.
I'd rather just keep that Confucian Missionary alive in Isabella's lands, both as a scout and as a "backup" in case we feel that we need to make Isabella fully Confucian for some reason (likely related to The Apostolic Palace), but I honestly can't think of the scenario that will matter in time before The Apostolic Palace becomes obsolete. Still, it's nice to have it around.
AND
7. We should consider the possibility of making Saladin and Justnian Confucian... just not yet... we just want to have the possibility available to us within a turn or two of deciding to do so.
There are 2 Confucian Missionaries on the western continent.
One is near Trebizond and should probably Fortify in Trebizond. There's no way that we'll benefit from building a Confucian Temple in our Barb Cities at this stage of the game--better to build a military unit after a Courthouse is complete, either a land unit if we have a Galleon that can transport it or an Airship if we think that there will be time to use it. Failing both ideas, then Wealth is going to be the best build item in these isolated Cities, after Courthouses are complete.
The other Confucian Missionary is near the Saladin + Toku border. We should probably just turn that Missionary around (it is currently on an "automove" path to Trebizond--I forgot to cancel automoves before submitting the save, sorry--most are just on the western continent, but a few are on our continent, moving units to 1NE of Wheaties). We could park this Confucian Missionary in Goldfish, again saving it in case we feel the need to gift it to Saladin.
This "planning for what-if scenarios" with our Confucian Missionaries may or may not pay off, but it'll be far better than spreading Confucian Missionaries in the two western Barb Cities that never will see any value out of such a spreading mission.
AND
8. Our biggest gating factor are the Diplo relations. The less techs that we trade away, the more techs that the AIs can Demand or Ask for Help about, giving us free +1 Diplo Modifiers.
We'll have to keep an eye on who is who's Worst Enemy, but I think that at present, the only Worst Enemy relations are from Mehmed hating others or others hating Mehmed. So, CURRENTLY, the tech trading make-up will not limit us from agreeing to a tech trading Demand or Request for Help.
However, we do need to monitor the F4 -> GLANCE screen to see if a potential Worst Enemy scenario can develop. Basically, if you see any blue-coloured (Annoyed) or red-coloured (Furious) attitudes developing on that page where the 2 players involved so not count Mehmed as one of those players, then we need to pause play when a related Demand or Request for Help comes up, as we have to be very careful about these last-minute trades.
As I said, we right now should accept all Demands and Requests for Help, even demands/requests for Gold, which is another good reason not to collect all of the AIs' Gold, so that they can act as a "reserve fund" in case our Gold supply has to be given up for a +1 Diplo relationship point.
The REALLY tricky part with the Diplo relations is whether or not the AIs will like us MORE than they like Toku for a Secretary General vote.
Saladin is +10 with Toku, which is one more than Friendly. We are not yet Friendly with Saladin. Once we are Friendly with Saladin, Saladin will still vote for Toku until we are "Friendly with Saladin +1," at which point Saladin will abstain. We actually need to get Saladin to Friendly and then get +2 with Saladin, assuming that Saladin's relationship with Toku doesn't get altered, in order to get Saladin's vote.
Justinian is at +10 with Toku, but he really likes Toku a lot due to hidden modifiers. Justinian is at +13 with us, but he will still vote for Toku. Justinian, as long as he keeps a constant +10 relationship with Toku, will abstain in a vote once we are at +14 with Justinian. Justnian will vote for us in favour of Toku once we are at +15 with Justinian.
As you can see, one bad move Diplomatically can easily shift this tentative balance into an unwinnable Secretary General vote.
Our "way out" is to use one of Mehmed's Cities (like the City due north of Cordoba), but that means first having a sufficiently army gathered to avoid multiple losses in taking and holding onto that City. 9 Military Units plus Airship support from Cordoba should be enough units to march on the City.
AND
9. There are probably points that I did not think to mention.
Testing
BLubz, do you want to volunteer to do so? I've done so in the past with gifting, but it will help to have a fresh set of eyes looking at the problem. You might come up with a method of gifting that I had not thought about which might allow us to avoid going up against Toku (aka Pacal) in a Diplo Victory vote.
BLubz, we're also still waiting to see you update the test saved game. I can commit to doing so for my turnset if you can do it for your turnset.Unclethrill said:
Have you even started yet? If not, why not? Why sit here and bark about deadlines if you aren't committed to helping the team meet them faster by supporting us with your portion of keeping the test saved game updated? The test saved game updating process went extremely well until the ball landed in your court.
Can you get to work on updating it before the game is over, please?
Whales
What is it with you and Whales?
If you want one more pop, we can fire some Scientists and work Coast squares in one of several different Cities. There. Done.
We certainly don't need the extra Resources, now that we captured a few from the western Barb Cities.
Further, if we were to settle Whales, not only would it not likely grow beyond a size-1 City, but even if it did, you're looking at a Size 2 City at most before the end of the game.
We can still get a Size 1 City by settling on the turn before a Diplo Vote, and if you want that theoretical second population point, follow my above suggestion of firing Scientists (who needs them after Mass Media, anyway) and growing a population point elsewhere.
Most importantly, if we settle Whales, we might throw away the option of building The UN in Riverdale using just 1 Great Engineer.
If we rush the war with Mehmed and we lose enough units against Mehmed, then Riverdale will be our ONLY option for The UN. It would be better to use just 1 Great Engineer rather than using up 2 when we barely, just barely, need that second Great Engineer because our Forest chop went to Whales instead of Riverdale.
So, we should not even consider Settling Whales until the end of the game.
IF YOU REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want to settle a City for population points, wouldn't it be better to settle just north of Grt Person Farm? There are several GIrr squares that could be worked (instead of just 1 for the Whales location). There are even Resources that can be borrowed form other Cities, such as a GPig.
This way, we could take care of your population-based reason for settling Whales, doing so in a far more efficient manner by settling elsewhere, and we also wouldn't waste any Forest Chops that are better used in The UN.
So, can you please give up on your continued fascination with the idea of settling Whales? What is the reason, anyway? Do you perhaps have a tendency to fixate on big piles of shiny objects (silver)?
AIs' Gold
I mentioned this point above, but I'll say it again just to be clear: if the AIs have Gold available in their hands, then it acts as a nice reserve fund. If we take it all in trade now and then find out that we need more Gold, we won't have an immediate, easy way of obtaining it. If we trade techs with them and they offer us some excess Gold to seal the deal, sure, we'll take that Gold, but I am against the idea of setting techs if all we hope to gain are either Gold or techs that we don't need.
Leaving Gold in the AIs' hands allows us to later get some Gold from the Bank of Saladin, the Justinian Commerce House, or perhaps the Toku Merchant Exchange.
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
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Graphs
Changing the value in that drop-down list doesn't appear to affect the graph when using Firefox 3.5.6. Is it broken for everyone or does it maybe work in Internet Explorer?
Speaking of the graphs on the SGOTM Progress page, has anyone ever been able to get the "Start file list at" drop-down list to work?
Changing the value in that drop-down list doesn't appear to affect the graph when using Firefox 3.5.6. Is it broken for everyone or does it maybe work in Internet Explorer?
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
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Screenshots from my last Partial Turnset
Spoiler :
Attachments
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
The start value has never worked, FWIK.
I'll try to update the test game between tonight and tomorrow, i should finally have some time.
I'm not barking at anyone, i'm just trying to keep us in the right mood about the finish date.
But the UN test can be performed on any save. I'm also trying to figure which use the test game can have at this point. We don't care which specialists we spawn, we don't care which improvements we'll build or to optimize workers actions.
There's only the war and the victory ASAP.
But if you ask it so gently, i'll try to appease you
I can affirm the following, with no need to test:
a) if we choose to give Riverdale with the UN to Zara we'll compete against Toku for the SG election.
b) if we manage to let Mehmed capture a former city of him we need him to be on siege of that city and to evacuate it the turn the UN completes.
So, b) is worth a test, a) is useless.
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
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Test Saved Game
SGOTM Progress Graphs
UN Testing
b) should be easy enough to set up in a World-built condition, but it might be hard to achieve in a real game, where we can't just magically gift the enemy AI some attacking units.
It would also be nice if you could test out things like: will the enemy AI (Peter) capture a City if we abandon it?
Will an enemy AI be more likely to attack if we have a Warrior defending vs a Longbowman defending?
If an AI has Catapults and our City has City Defenses, will they bombard or capture the City if there is only one of our units in it? What about if we evacuate the City completely--will they sit there bombarding instead of attacking?
All of these points can have an impact on the success of the "let Mehmed capture The UN strategy," so if you can shed any more light on these subjects, it would be very much appreciated.
It was UT who asked, but I feel helpless to provide him with one without one that starts similarly as the start of my turnset did. It's easy enough for me to "fake" some aspects, such as deleting the wrong type of Great Person that got spawned, adding extra Gold if our Trade Routes don't give us as much as in the real game, etc, but I'd still need to start from a game that is as similar as you can make it as per the start of my turnset.I'm also trying to figure which use the test game can have at this point. We don't care which specialists we spawn, we don't care which improvements we'll build or to optimize workers actions.
There's only the war and the victory ASAP.
But if you ask it so gently, i'll try to appease you
SGOTM Progress Graphs
Do you know if this fact has been reported to AlanH and is something that cannot be fixed or is it possible that he just don't know that it doesn't work? Maybe it only works if you are using a Mac...
UN Testing
True enough.
I saw the same result when I tried to test a) but if you can come up with a sneaky way to make it work, we'd all love to hear your solution.
b) should be easy enough to set up in a World-built condition, but it might be hard to achieve in a real game, where we can't just magically gift the enemy AI some attacking units.
It would also be nice if you could test out things like: will the enemy AI (Peter) capture a City if we abandon it?
Will an enemy AI be more likely to attack if we have a Warrior defending vs a Longbowman defending?
If an AI has Catapults and our City has City Defenses, will they bombard or capture the City if there is only one of our units in it? What about if we evacuate the City completely--will they sit there bombarding instead of attacking?
All of these points can have an impact on the success of the "let Mehmed capture The UN strategy," so if you can shed any more light on these subjects, it would be very much appreciated.
unclethrill
Why am I up right now?
The start value has never worked, FWIK.
I'll try to update the test game between tonight and tomorrow, i should finally have some time.
I'm not barking at anyone, i'm just trying to keep us in the right mood about the finish date.
But the UN test can be performed on any save. I'm also trying to figure which use the test game can have at this point. We don't care which specialists we spawn, we don't care which improvements we'll build or to optimize workers actions.
There's only the war and the victory ASAP.
But if you ask it so gently, i'll try to appease you
I can affirm the following, with no need to test:
a) if we choose to give Riverdale with the UN to Zara we'll compete against Toku for the SG election.
b) if we manage to let Mehmed capture a former city of him we need him to be on siege of that city and to evacuate it the turn the UN completes.
So, b) is worth a test, a) is useless.
I'm confused on A. The Election is between the highest pop and the owner of the UN right? So if we give it to Zara then it should be between us and Zara right? What am I missing?
Dhoomstriker
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UN Timing
However, from some very brief testing, it appears that the Secretary General vote, at least the first one, isn't done on a cycle but instead happens immediately after The UN is built.
All I know is that a Secretary General Election would come up between us and Pacal before we could gift The UN to Zara.
Further Testing--BLubz? Any other volunteer?
To be honest, there is still some testing left to do on this subject. I don't think that I actually played out the voting results.
We should check the following scenarios, where we build The UN and gift it to Zara on the following turn:
1. If we win the Secretary General Election, what happens? Does the voting proceed on schedule or is there a delay in the timing compared to not gifting The UN?
AND
2. If we win the Secretary General Election but aren't the population leader, what happens? Will a Diplo Vote be between Pacal (the population leader) and Zara?
AND
3. Similar to point 2 but the opposite--if Pacal wins the election (we can vote for him to win if we need to do so in order for him to win), then what happens after we gift The UN, should we happen to become the population leader before the next UN vote? Will a new Secretary General election occur? Will we still be left out of the running? Will Pacal be the one to control which item gets voted on but we will be one of the 2 candidates because we have hte largest population?
So, I would have to hear a very thorough description on the subject of UN-gifting from someone who claims that no more testing needs to be done on the UN-gifting aspect before I will believe that the testing of this issue is complete.
The UN Voting for UN Resolutions happens on a regular cycle. That vote timing can be predicted, which is where a test saved game accurate to the correct date can help us out more than a "random" date test saved game can help us out.
However, from some very brief testing, it appears that the Secretary General vote, at least the first one, isn't done on a cycle but instead happens immediately after The UN is built.
All I know is that a Secretary General Election would come up between us and Pacal before we could gift The UN to Zara.
Further Testing--BLubz? Any other volunteer?
To be honest, there is still some testing left to do on this subject. I don't think that I actually played out the voting results.
We should check the following scenarios, where we build The UN and gift it to Zara on the following turn:
1. If we win the Secretary General Election, what happens? Does the voting proceed on schedule or is there a delay in the timing compared to not gifting The UN?
AND
2. If we win the Secretary General Election but aren't the population leader, what happens? Will a Diplo Vote be between Pacal (the population leader) and Zara?
AND
3. Similar to point 2 but the opposite--if Pacal wins the election (we can vote for him to win if we need to do so in order for him to win), then what happens after we gift The UN, should we happen to become the population leader before the next UN vote? Will a new Secretary General election occur? Will we still be left out of the running? Will Pacal be the one to control which item gets voted on but we will be one of the 2 candidates because we have hte largest population?
So, I would have to hear a very thorough description on the subject of UN-gifting from someone who claims that no more testing needs to be done on the UN-gifting aspect before I will believe that the testing of this issue is complete.
Dhoomstriker
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Forests
We want to keep the Forests to the east of Delhi, as they are either going to be saved for building The UN (at least the ones closest to Riverdale will be used in this way) or can potentially help a Forest to regrow there.
We also want to keep both Plains Forests that are in Delhi's fat cross, for the extra Health point.
However, you can most certainly chop these three Forests into Military Units ASAP:
1. PFor SW + S + S of Mystic (E of the Des Stone)
AND
2. GFor SE + S + S of Mystic (W + W of the PCow)
AND
3. GFor NE + NE + E of Grt Person Farm (W + W of the GCopper)
The Forests to the east of Delhi that can benefit from getting a Forest Preserve are:
4. PFor SE + E of Delhi (N + N of the Ice Iron)
AND
5. GFor NE + E + E +E of Delhi (NW + W + W of Riverdale)
These Forests already have Forest Preserves on them and do not need to have anything done to them:
6. TunFor SE of Riverdale (1S of the GCow)
AND
7. PRiv For E + E + E of Delhi (W + W + W + W of Riverdale)
AND
8. PFor NW + N of Delhi (1N of the GCopper)
We want to keep the Forests to the east of Delhi, as they are either going to be saved for building The UN (at least the ones closest to Riverdale will be used in this way) or can potentially help a Forest to regrow there.
We also want to keep both Plains Forests that are in Delhi's fat cross, for the extra Health point.
However, you can most certainly chop these three Forests into Military Units ASAP:
1. PFor SW + S + S of Mystic (E of the Des Stone)
AND
2. GFor SE + S + S of Mystic (W + W of the PCow)
AND
3. GFor NE + NE + E of Grt Person Farm (W + W of the GCopper)
The Forests to the east of Delhi that can benefit from getting a Forest Preserve are:
4. PFor SE + E of Delhi (N + N of the Ice Iron)
AND
5. GFor NE + E + E +E of Delhi (NW + W + W of Riverdale)
These Forests already have Forest Preserves on them and do not need to have anything done to them:
6. TunFor SE of Riverdale (1S of the GCow)
AND
7. PRiv For E + E + E of Delhi (W + W + W + W of Riverdale)
AND
8. PFor NW + N of Delhi (1N of the GCopper)
Dhoomstriker
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Units near Toledo
We have 4 Military units near Toledo. They won't be enough to capture and hold onto Toledo.
Perhaps we should instead divert them to the northwest, following Isabella's Road system, to join up with the other 6 Military units (3 that landed and 3 that are about to land). That would give us 10 units and thus a sufficiently-sized force to go after Mehmed's City that is to the north of Cordoba, putting us on the right track to being able to capture a City of Mehmed's for The UN.
Alternatively, we'll just still plan to use Riverdale, saving us a Great Person, while netting ourselves a greater PERCENTAGE of the votes, thanks to Mehmed's population becoming ours.
Building new Cities or capturing Size-4 Barb Cities won't do much in the way of the voting percentage, but taking away votes from an AI that won't vote for us (Mehmed) and putting those votes on our side of the voting equation, DOES work really well.
We have 4 Military units near Toledo. They won't be enough to capture and hold onto Toledo.
Perhaps we should instead divert them to the northwest, following Isabella's Road system, to join up with the other 6 Military units (3 that landed and 3 that are about to land). That would give us 10 units and thus a sufficiently-sized force to go after Mehmed's City that is to the north of Cordoba, putting us on the right track to being able to capture a City of Mehmed's for The UN.
Alternatively, we'll just still plan to use Riverdale, saving us a Great Person, while netting ourselves a greater PERCENTAGE of the votes, thanks to Mehmed's population becoming ours.
Building new Cities or capturing Size-4 Barb Cities won't do much in the way of the voting percentage, but taking away votes from an AI that won't vote for us (Mehmed) and putting those votes on our side of the voting equation, DOES work really well.
Dhoomstriker
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If we do move these 4 units towards the northwest, I'd suggest that you group them all together as one stack, to reduce the chance of Mehmed's Horse Archers "sneaking over the border" and attacking them while they are vulnerable, in their current two groupings of 2 units each.
Dhoomstriker
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Buddhist Missionaries
Whatever happens, we need to keep pumping out Buddhist Missionaries.
The Silk City will need one (two if we fail to spread the first time that we try to spread Buddhism), Isabella will need 2, and if we capture any additional Cities from Mehmed but make Zara our UN Opponent, then we'll need Buddhist Missionaries for those Cities, as well.
Ivory Towers will hopefully get Buddhism from Zara's Caravel, but if not, as the game end approaches, we'll need another Buddhist Missionary there, as well.
These Buddhist Missionaries can only really be effectively built in Grt Person Farm and Delhi, so be sure to start building a new one whenever one gets use to spread Buddhism or gets gifted to Isabella.
Whatever happens, we need to keep pumping out Buddhist Missionaries.
The Silk City will need one (two if we fail to spread the first time that we try to spread Buddhism), Isabella will need 2, and if we capture any additional Cities from Mehmed but make Zara our UN Opponent, then we'll need Buddhist Missionaries for those Cities, as well.
Ivory Towers will hopefully get Buddhism from Zara's Caravel, but if not, as the game end approaches, we'll need another Buddhist Missionary there, as well.
These Buddhist Missionaries can only really be effectively built in Grt Person Farm and Delhi, so be sure to start building a new one whenever one gets use to spread Buddhism or gets gifted to Isabella.
Dhoomstriker
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Workers by the western Barb Cities
Here are some Worker tasks that need to be done:
1. Once the borders have expanded once for Zhou, build a GIron Mine (but not a Road)
AND
2. Build a Road on the Tun Fur (one Worker should be sufficient, so that we don't incur a lot of Unit Supply costs from having all of our Workers outside of our borders)
AND
3. Once the borders of Zhou expand over the Fur, build a Camp there
AND
4. Once the borders of the northern Barb City expand into its fat cross, I am going to recommend that we build a FORT. Place it NW + W of the northern Barb City, destroying a Grassland Hamlet.
With that Fort there, we can potentially avoid any risk of our Great People being sunk by Privateers in the late game by using a Galleon chain from Zara's eastern City (Addis Ababa) directly to that Fort.
Here are some Worker tasks that need to be done:
1. Once the borders have expanded once for Zhou, build a GIron Mine (but not a Road)
AND
2. Build a Road on the Tun Fur (one Worker should be sufficient, so that we don't incur a lot of Unit Supply costs from having all of our Workers outside of our borders)
AND
3. Once the borders of Zhou expand over the Fur, build a Camp there
AND
4. Once the borders of the northern Barb City expand into its fat cross, I am going to recommend that we build a FORT. Place it NW + W of the northern Barb City, destroying a Grassland Hamlet.
With that Fort there, we can potentially avoid any risk of our Great People being sunk by Privateers in the late game by using a Galleon chain from Zara's eastern City (Addis Ababa) directly to that Fort.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
I made this test in few minutes. I choose 2 Russian cities, gave myself 4 MI each and 2 GE. Set the UN as first build in the most internal one (size 3 or 4).SGOTM Progress Graphs
Do you know if this fact has been reported to AlanH and is something that cannot be fixed or is it possible that he just don't know that it doesn't work? Maybe it only works if you are using a Mac...
I can do it. I'll post something in the maintenance thread.
UN Testing
b) should be easy enough to set up in a World-built condition, but it might be hard to achieve in a real game, where we can't just magically gift the enemy AI some attacking units.
It would also be nice if you could test out things like: will the enemy AI (Peter) capture a City if we abandon it?
Peter did not dare to attack them, so i gave him a couple units, burnt the 2 GEs on the UN and evacuated it.
After hit enter, i've seen the UN movie, the message that we completed it and the message that the city was captured by Peter.
We was first in pop and the SG election popped immediately showing us and Peter as candidates. We barely won.
We can do more tests using more fitting units, at least to garrison the city.
About the gift, i've put my imagination at work, but i can't find a way to have the UN built and the city gifted in the same turn.
The capture works because we complete our building IBT and Peter (Mehmed) can capture after it. But gifting the city does not work in the same way: if we gift it even with hammers overflow it won't complete the UN, since the gifted Civ will take control of that city immediately.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
Please see my previous post.
We're worried to compete with Toku for the SG election. If we gift the city to Zara, we'll still compete with Toku, since the order is:
1) UN are built
2) the call for the SG election pops
3) our turn starts and we can gift the city to Zara.
There can be only a way to gift the city to Zara IBT: that he comes proposing some trade, so we can bargain anything he ask, then we can propose a new trade and gift Riverdale.
2 leaders appeared IBT to ask to exchange WMs, i've tried to open F4 (you can contact a Leader from there right-clicking on his icon), but no way: it's not our turn.
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
The last tab of F8 shows the timing of the votes: 6 turns until next vote and 4 votes until next election.
It shows the same timing in both cases (gift and capture)
BLubmuz
HoF Quattromaster
In case we decide for the captured UN, we need a Buddhist missionary for Riverdale, better 2.
With the fort you indicatd the galley in Trebizond can move in our territory and be upgraded?
With the fort you indicatd the galley in Trebizond can move in our territory and be upgraded?
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