SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Dhoomstriker]

Just to offer an alternative; if max out and starve Crabs for 2 turns while running Caste System, run 3 specialists for 5 turns of Slavery while growing, then switch back to Caste System and run as many specialists as possible, what turn will the great person come? Can we still get it in place in time? If so, then the only delay for building in Riverdale is the 1 turn longer it takes to build the UN. Are the down sides of the UN in Dehli really worth that 1 turn?

It's a fair point that should be tested, so that we have all of the facts available to us.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

If we are still going to need to gift the UN, I'm a little dubious about gifting it in Dehli and losing all our wonders.

Are the down sides of the UN in Dehli really worth that 1 turn?

I'm not certain if it's only a 1 turn difference between Delhi and Riverdale should we be able to use Slavery, but assuming that it is a 1 turn difference, then I must counter with asking:

Are the upsides of keeping our Wonders in Delhi worth winning 1 turn later?

There's a certain irony to gutting your captiol, handing over the keys to all of your hard-fought-for Wonders, while at the same time handing over a loss to Zara for the very act of giving away our ex-capitol.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Other thoughts
Confucian Missionary 12, the one in Barcelona, has already partially moved this turn, so don't plan to move him until T277, so that he doesn't die to Mehmed's units.

Bribing Toku out of war and back into war should prevent Toku from vassalizing Mehmed.

Based on having tracked AI modifiers attitude in the past, as long as Scores remain constant relative to each other, then Isabella will be Friendly with us at +12. She is +9 with us and we can get +3 from Fair and forthright trading.

So, if Music is enough to get her +3 (be sure to gift it, not asking her for Gold in exchange for it, to be certain), then she'll be at Friendly. At that point, you are able to get things that we've waited for from her for a while:
a) The ability to request her to switch Religions
AND
b) The ability to get her World Map

I'd say use Divine Right in trade for those things (Buddhism, plus her World Map, plus her remaining Gold), should Music be a sufficient Gift to push her up to +12 with us. If Music isn't enough, gift her Divine Right and then pick another tech (Guilds? She doesn't have a Horse Resource... not Paper unless you're also giving that to Zara, and if you are giving it to Zara, give it to Zara first).

 

[Irgy]

I guess the question really is "what are the risks of giving away Dehli?" We won't be able to get it back very easily! If there is no real increase in our overall risks then I suppose one turn is all we really care about at this stage, so we might as well just do it.

 

[Mitchum]

Ummm, we'd have to switch into Org Religion for this idea to work, which probably shouldn't happen if we want to win Diplomatically.

Good point. We've been in OR for so many turns this game that I forgot about monasteries...

 

[Mitchum]

Delhi--we don't have to go too overboard there

Just so that you know, if we are losing more Food than the amount of Food that exists in our Foodbox, we WILL shrink a population Size.

Yes, obviously I'm not going to shrink the city. I was planning on starving it to get the foodbox lower so if we did need to shrink it, we could do so at 1 pop/turn right away. If we keep working the corn and farms, it will take 2 turns just to get to the point where we can shrink the city. I thought I recalled you suggesting this starvation plan in the first place, but maybe I was dreaming...

Is there any reason not to start on a Buddhist Missionary on T276?

No, that was a mistake. I had so many dates written down in my notes and in spreadsheets that I pulled the wrong one up thinking that it was our currrent turn. I will start a Buddhist missionary on T276 in GP Farm.

That means that we have a Confucian Missionary in Barcelona that can head to Isabella's west coast, to be picked up by one of the Galleons there. Perhaps it can even be part of the units trip of taking the Buddhist Missionary up north, even if it means taking 1 more turn to shuffle the boats into place, just to save us from having to move the boats forwards and then backwards and then forwards and backwards again, overall saving us a turn.

I'll try to squeeze this contingency plan into the naval shell game I have to play, but it will take third priority to the GP galleon chain and the chain necessary to shuttle Buddhist missionaries from Delhi to Mehmed-land. For this plan to work, we may need yet another Confucian missionary if we can't get rid of Izmir...

Meanwhile, on T276, you can take the 2 Confucian Missionaries on the western continent (you'll have to wake them up) and send them to Trebizond. We should have a reasonably good chance of being able to spread them to our two Barb Cities there, since both Cities only have 1 Religion, are both large-sized, and are closest to the Confucian Holy City out of all Religions' Holy Cities.

This should be easy enough. The galley in Trebizond will be the final galleon in our 7-boat chain, so it has plenty of time to get into place since it is already fairly close.

Barb Area's Military Units to help out Isabella
If you can, try to get a Galleon over to the Barb Area to be able to bring in 2 more Military Units for support purposes, either to help with this City to the north of Cordoba (they probably can't get there in time) or more likely, to unload in Barcelona to help out Isabella in the war against Mehmed.

I don't see this happening. I considered these units "lost" when I saw them. There is no way to pull off all of the naval logistics and at the same time, get a galleon that we don't currently have all the way to Barb Island to pick these guys up. I'll put this on the "wish list" when working out the naval plans, but the game will likely be over before they get anywhere. Unless the Trebizond galley (galleon) would serve a better purpose as a troop shuttle rather than the final leg for the great person galleon chain. If only we had 10 more galleons I could do all you've asked...

Tech Trading

I've rethought my suggestion.

OK, so I'll gift them Astronomy instead.

We want Toku to remain at war with Mehmed. It also wouldn't hurt to have Justinian get a bit angry at Toku. Why don't we use one of Education and Printing Press to bribe Toku into Peace with Mehmed and the other tech to bribe Toku back into war with Mehmed?

We could even wait until the turn that The UN is built, so that if Saladin likes Mehmed for Shared Religion, he should hate Toku by -1 for having declared on his friend. Once The UN gets built, it will force Mehmed and Saladin to meet each other.

This sounds doable. On the turn the UN is built, bribe Toku in and out of war again (do we have to wait 10 turns since UT just did this). If we end up going up against Toku in the diplo vote, we won't need +4 fair trade with him anyway, right?

If and when a Confucian Missionary gets spread, we should consider switching one of the Wealth-building Cities to a Confucian Missionary, in case we need a backup.

OK.

 

[Mitchum]

Just to offer an alternative; if max out and starve Crabs for 2 turns while running Caste System, run 3 specialists for 5 turns of Slavery while growing, then switch back to Caste System and run as many specialists as possible, what turn will the great person come? Can we still get it in place in time? If so, then the only delay for building in Riverdale is the 1 turn longer it takes to build the UN. Are the down sides of the UN in Dehli really worth that 1 turn?

If we run 11 specialists on T276, 10 on T277, 3 for the next five turns of Slavery, and then 10 on T283 and 9 on T284 (or 12 on T283 and 11 on T284 if we're able to grow 2 pops), well get our great person in 9 turns, which is exactly what is currently scheduled - 9 turns. Just so you know, we'd have to grow Crabs from 9 pops to 18 pops in 5 turns to shave a turn of the great person, so it's obviously not possible.

If we build the UN in Delhi, it can be completed on T277 with the results posting on T288. If we build the UN in Riverdale using Slavery, the UN can be completed on T279 with the results shown on T280. So, building it in Delhi is a full 2 turns faster for BOTH the UN and the great person from Crabs.

 

[Mitchum]

Other thoughts
Confucian Missionary 12, the one in Barcelona, has already partially moved this turn, so don't plan to move him until T277, so that he doesn't die to Mehmed's units.

Bribing Toku out of war and back into war should prevent Toku from vassalizing Mehmed.

Based on having tracked AI modifiers attitude in the past, as long as Scores remain constant relative to each other, then Isabella will be Friendly with us at +12. She is +9 with us and we can get +3 from Fair and forthright trading.

So, if Music is enough to get her +3 (be sure to gift it, not asking her for Gold in exchange for it, to be certain), then she'll be at Friendly. At that point, you are able to get things that we've waited for from her for a while:
a) The ability to request her to switch Religions
AND
b) The ability to get her World Map

I'd say use Divine Right in trade for those things (Buddhism, plus her World Map, plus her remaining Gold), should Music be a sufficient Gift to push her up to +12 with us. If Music isn't enough, gift her Divine Right and then pick another tech (Guilds? She doesn't have a Horse Resource... not Paper unless you're also giving that to Zara, and if you are giving it to Zara, give it to Zara first).

OK. All of this will go into the updated PPP coming soon.

 

[Mitchum]

I've updated the PPP here with RED text.

I believe that I've captured all feedback so far. If not, please type a little louder next time and I'll try to get your comments incorporated.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Yes, obviously I'm not going to shrink the city. I was planning on starving it to get the foodbox lower so if we did need to shrink it, we could do so at 1 pop/turn right away. If we keep working the corn and farms, it will take 2 turns just to get to the point where we can shrink the city. I thought I recalled you suggesting this starvation plan in the first place, but maybe I was dreaming...

Ummm, no it won't require 2 turns to shrink Delhi. But, maybe you're relying on the test saved game, which, although it is accurate for Riverdale, has other inaccuracies, such as the amount of Food in Delhi's Foodbox.

I don't see this happening. I considered these units "lost" when I saw them. There is no way to pull off all of the naval logistics and at the same time, get a galleon that we don't currently have all the way to Barb Island to pick these guys up. I'll put this on the "wish list" when working out the naval plans, but the game will likely be over before they get anywhere. Unless the Trebizond galley (galleon) would serve a better purpose as a troop shuttle rather than the final leg for the great person galleon chain. If only we had 10 more galleons I could do all you've asked...

Believe it or not, it appears that you CAN upgrade a Galley to a Galleon if you put it in a Fort. So, our Trebizond Galley should be able to become a Galleon if you move it on T276 to the Fort. Then, it can return for the Confucian Missionaries, followed by taking the Military units to Isabella's lands, then return to the Galleon Chain. You'll have to work out the exact logistics to ensure that the timing will still work.

(do we have to wait 10 turns since UT just did this).

No, you can do it infinite times as long as you have sufficient techs and/or Gold to satisfy the greed of the AI being bribed.

If we end up going up against Toku in the diplo vote, we won't need +4 fair trade with him anyway, right?

Surely, we will be "overpaying" by bribing him in and out of war using "expensive" techs like Educaiton and Printing Press. He'll almost certainly give us the +4 anyway, due to this fact.

That means that we have a Confucian Missionary in Barcelona that can head to Isabella's west coast, to be picked up by one of the Galleons there. Perhaps it can even be part of the units trip of taking the Buddhist Missionary up north, even if it means taking 1 more turn to shuffle the boats into place, just to save us from having to move the boats forwards and then backwards and then forwards and backwards again, overall saving us a turn.

I'll try to squeeze this contingency plan into the naval shell game I have to play, but it will take third priority to the GP galleon chain and the chain necessary to shuttle Buddhist missionaries from Delhi to Mehmed-land. For this plan to work, we may need yet another Confucian missionary if we can't get rid of Izmir...

This point might not matter, since, as I noted later, we don't have enough movement points left on the Barelona Confucian Missionary to move him safely until T277.

Whatever, the Missionary can walk NW on T277 and then maybe our Caravel can shuttle him. Or maybe he'll be able to walk up to Chinook, depending upon how much of a squeeze you are able to put on Mehmed's troops when you go for the City to the north of Cordoba.

So, don't worry about delaying the Buddhist Missionary transportation.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I believe that I've captured all feedback so far. If not, please type a little louder next time and I'll try to get your comments incorporated.

I'm sorry, but I have a "soft touch" keyboard and you can't hear the keys being pressed!

Actually, no I don't have such a keyboard, but it was fun to say.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The missionary in Barcelona will skip its turn this turn to avoid Mehmed’s troops. It will then hang out near Cordoba in an attempt to board a non-existent ferry up to Chinook.

Yes, Typhoon Bo will be approaching and disrupting naval transportation in the region. As I mentioned above, perhaps he can use the Dutchess' upgraded Trireme to get him to where he needs to be.

On that note, the Dutchess' Galley can probably shuttle her on War Elephant to the NE on T277, dropping her off on that turn or on the next turn, before heading back to its home port in Ivory Towers for a much-needed upgrade.

 

[Mitchum]

Believe it or not, it appears that you CAN upgrade a Galley to a Galleon if you put it in a Fort. So, our Trebizond Galley should be able to become a Galleon if you move it on T276 to the Fort. Then, it can return for the Confucian Missionaries, followed by taking the Military units to Isabella's lands, then return to the Galleon Chain. You'll have to work out the exact logistics to ensure that the timing will still work.

Let's see, move to fort and upgrade on T0. Move back and pick up missionaries on T1. Drop off missionaries on T2 and pick up macemen. Since our great person comes on T7, that gives this Galleon just 5 turns to drop off the macemen in Spain and then get back into position? I'm afraid that isn't enough time by a long shot.

The only way this MAY work would be to use the galleons in a reverse galleon chain towards Spain as they are on their way to set up the forward galleon chain for the great people. This would put us behind by 2 turns (1 turn to shuttle the macemen west and then another turn to get back where they just were) in getting the Great Person chain set up. Keep in mind that most galleons are along the west coast of Mehmed's continent and have a fair way to sail to get into position, especially those that will form the part of the chain along the southern coast of our continent.

As I said, I will try to work it out, but this will be a very low priority. Getting the GP chain set up and the partial Buddhist chain set up will take priority since those are requirements to win the game. These two mace men are just casual bystanders at the moment.

Surely, we will be "overpaying" by bribing him in and out of war using "expensive" techs like Educaiton and Printing Press. He'll almost certainly give us the +4 anyway, due to this fact.

OK. But I assume UT "overpaid" when he bribed Toku in and out of war and we didn't get +4 fair trade out of that... No worries. As I said, if all goes according to plan, we'll be keeping Delhi and going up against Toku for the Diplo vote, so this +4 won't matter.

Whatever, the Missionary can walk NW on T277 and then maybe our Caravel can shuttle him. Or maybe he'll be able to walk up to Chinook, depending upon how much of a squeeze you are able to put on Mehmed's troops when you go for the City to the north of Cordoba.

OK. Even though this is a worthy backup plan, I put getting the partial chain for the last two Buddhist missionaries at a higher priority than this. The Trireme was going to be used for this purpose. Our caravel is way out in the middle of the ocean and may not be of much use for anything.

So, I will see if I can sneak this missionary to Chinook by land. He can stay with my stack as I march north from Cordoba and then make a run for it when the coast is clear. No one would attack a poor, helpless missionary, would they?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Galley -> Galleon by the Barb Area

Let's see, move to fort and upgrade on T0.

I'm afraid not. You move towards the Fort that is NW + N of DevilsGate and upgrade when you get there.

After upgrading, returning to just outside of Trebizond to get the 2 Confucian Missionaries (without actually walking into Trebizond), you will move to NE + N of DevilsGate. On the following turn, you'll drop off the 2 Confucian Missionaries and pick up 2 Macemen.

The Galleon could arrive just outside of Madrid on T282, at which point you'd manually unload the 2 Macemen, say, from SE of Barcelona into Barcelona.

On T283, you'd have a Galleon just SE of Barcelona that has full movement remaining.

Will you be able to get this Galleon into your Galleon Chain in time?

The only way this MAY work would be to use the galleons in a reverse galleon chain towards Spain as they are on their way to set up the forward galleon chain for the great people.

I'm not sure that this point would be needed, as it's only 2 turns between Barb Area and Madrid. At most, you'd use 1 other Galleon to help out. The land units would arrive on the same turn (since, by getting there a turn faster, they used up their movement point when transferring between boats), but you'd get to move your 2 Galleons back into position 1 turn sooner this way.


Barcelona's Confucian Missionary

So, I will see if I can sneak this missionary to Chinook by land. He can stay with my stack as I march north from Cordoba and then make a run for it when the coast is clear. No one would attack a poor, helpless missionary, would they?

Sounds like a worthy plan to me!

 

[Mitchum]

Galley -> Galleon by the Barb Area

I'm afraid not. You move towards the Fort that is NW + N of DevilsGate and upgrade when you get there.

After upgrading, returning to just outside of Trebizond to get the 2 Confucian Missionaries (without actually walking into Trebizond), you will move to NE + N of DevilsGate. On the following turn, you'll drop off the 2 Confucian Missionaries and pick up 2 Macemen.

I'm working on the test game for the galleon logistics today. I have not studied the situation in detail with the real save (I'm always worried about advancing the game...). For now, please hold further specific comments on Galleon movement until I've had a chance to check it out with a test game and posted a plan. I will try to work all of your requests into my plan.

 

[Mitchum]

I've got my naval logistics figured out. I will update my PPP tonight if possible. Sorry for the delay.

 

[unclethrill]

Good luck Mitchum!!! I never intended to make things harder by taking IIzar.

 

[Mitchum]

Good luck Mitchum!!! I never intended to make things harder by taking IIzar.

No problems. I know how I can be when I'm in the "Kill 'em all!" mindset. We have backup plans for our backup plans...

If Mehmed doesn't capture it, we'll either gift it and another city to Izzy or just gift it back to Mehmed AFTER the UN vote as a peace offering (i.e. the turn after we win the diplo victory.

 

[Mitchum]

I've updated the PPP once again here with RED text. The main addition was the logistics of setting up 2 galleon chains: one for Buddhist missionaries and one for the great people.

Since the bulk of the PPP has been up for a while, I'd like to request approval to play 3 turns tomorrow at about noon my time. If I can't play then, it will have to be Monday (unless I can sneak in a few hours at home, but I'm always worried about my daughters pushing buttons).

I think I have all contingencies worked out. If something comes up that I'm unsure of, I'll stop and post the situation.

 

[Irgy]

Well, it probably doesn't count for much because I haven't really checked any details, but I'm in favour of declaring you ready to go. It certainly looks like everything's been worked out.