SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[unclethrill]

Sometimes, you guys really surprise me. I am speechless. BLubmuz is allowed to change his vote at the last minute, but others are not?
He changed within the 24 hours. Anyone else could have too but they didn't. Also he didn't actually change his mind, he made a choice then asked for a test to be run to clarify a point and when that test showed no gain he confirmed his choice.

What is the point of having any sort of discussion if someone cannot be swayed by the discussion? What's the point of even having any discussion whatsoever?

I agree that the discussions are there to sway someone but the 24 hour limit was set for a reason and everyone voted. When the vote wasn't how you wanted it to be, you continued to post the same ideas package a little differently and still no one has changed their mind. How long do we wait? How about we change the rules to say "We have 24 hours to vote unless the vote is clearly not in favor of what Dhoom wants and then we continue to vote until someone gives up and changes their vote so that play will continue"?


Because what keeps happening is that voting polls are being made before enough information is discussed. Voting polls miss possible voting options or else make "options" out of barely-tested-scenarios.

How long should we wait to post a vote? I posted a PPP at five after midnight. Dhoom suggested a change at 3 AM. At 8:30 PM, 20.5 hours later instead of playing, I posted a vote with the only change that was proposed during those 20.5 hours. How is that not enough time?


If voting polls came out a bit later and were more accurately managed, then they'd be good polls. But when new data can easily come out after the voting poll comes out, then the person who made the voting poll messed up.


It would be like saying "oh, I won a pre-election poll, so I should be president." If the voting poll comes out too soon, it's not the official voting poll. It can't be, as the options aren't known well enough.


I might as well write a poll now that says "should we attack the second AI that we meet?" We have no clue who that AI will be, and voting without certain key information, such as who that AI will be and what their relative place in the world theatre will be will CHANGE THE VOTING RESULTS. But what you are suggesting is that we go ahead with that voting poll's results just because I decided to put out the voting poll sooner than I should have--before enough facts were known about the options and before the options were properly analyzed and discussed. And then you are saying that we should stick to that goal, even if the choice was not to attack and that AI will end up being the best AI to attack, or if the choice was to attack right away and it turns out that it was the worst AI to attack in the game.

If attacking the AI was to happen in your TS and you thought that attacking another one was smart then it would be a valid vote. If you are just making ridiculous posts since you can't seem to convince teammates to choose your plan over someone else's then all we have are thread spam and considering that we are now at double any other team on posts, I don't think we need that.

 

[Mitchum]

OK. So as it stands today, I think the situation is:

1. We had agreed via team voting on a PPP to build the warrior first, scout E then S and then out to the peninsula by T50. Even this is subject to debate, but we've wasted many pixels on this already.
2. Dhoomstriker logged in after a lot of this had happened (the last he had read, it was 3 vs. 3 with BLubmuz vote counting for more in case of a tie), and he wanted more time, which was alloted. Thank you!!
3. Dhoomstriker came up with reasons not scout east. We all have read his reasoning.
4. I assume that we're all on board that fog busting our peninsula fits in with our strategy. I have not heard anything counter to this.
5. Dhoomstriker came up with a way to build worker first and still scout Silver and fogbust the peninsula by T50.
6. At least Unclethrill and BLubmuz have reviewed and understand Dhoomstriker's agruments for 3 and 5. Yes, this information came later than you would have liked, but it did come in before the turn set was played so it should weigh in on our decision, no?
7. Neither Unclethrill and BLubmuz are willing to change their votes based on this new information (items 3 and 5).

If this is the case (and item 6 is the most important to me), then the team has decided to move forward with warrior first. I support the team's decision assuming the above is correct.

I'm just a bit surprised that more of us weren't swayed by Dhoomstriker's ability to accomplish all of our goals with minimal compromise. The current plan is a compromise in my opinion.

 

[unclethrill]

OK. So as it stands today, I think the situation is:

1. We had agreed via team voting on a PPP to build the warrior first, scout E then S and then out to the peninsula by T50. Even this is subject to debate, but we've wasted many pixels on this already.
2. Dhoomstriker logged in after a lot of this had happened (the last he had read, it was 3 vs. 3 with BLubmuz vote counting for more in case of a tie), and he wanted more time, which was alloted. Thank you!!
3. Dhoomstriker came up with reasons not scout east. We all have read his reasoning.
4. I assume that we're all on board that fog busting our peninsula fits in with our strategy. I have not heard anything counter to this.
5. Dhoomstriker came up with a way to build worker first and still scout Silver and fogbust the peninsula by T50.
6. At least Unclethrill and BLubmuz have reviewed and understand Dhoomstriker's agruments for 3 and 5. Yes, this information came later than you would have liked, but it did come in before the turn set was played so it should weigh in on our decision, no?
7. Neither Unclethrill and BLubmuz are willing to change their votes based on this new information (items 3 and 5).

If this is the case (and item 6 is the most important to me), then the team has decided to move forward with warrior first. I support the team's decision assuming the above is correct.

I'm just a bit surprised that more of us weren't swayed by Dhoomstriker's ability to accomplish all of our goals with minimal compromise. The current plan is a compromise in my opinion.

Excellent summary. I agree that it is a compromise and only time will tell if the correct choice was made.

 

[Mitchum]

Did you give a thought that the current TSs are pretty boring, and that it will be more FUN to get to more interesting TSs?

I just fail to see what is fun in discussing 2H+1F, or was it 2F+1H? I lost track with all the endless words...

I have one thought here that just came to my mind. I agree that what we're discussing seems trivial, but I can assure you that it is not. The current output of our entire empire on T18 is +4F, 1H and 11C (16 basic units). A missed worker turn is equivalent to some number of basic units close to 11 (the number seems to change depending on who's talking about it). This means that missing a worker turn is almost the same as missing a full turn of our empire's output.

Later in the game, this waste isn't as noticible (i.e. 11 units is <<10% of our empire's output). It's still wasteful, but it's less critical. Early in the game, losing a turn's worth of output can be huge. Consider that everything that happens early in the game has huge leverage (similar to compound interest). A small loss now snowballs into a bigger and bigger loss as the game goes on. For example, city 3 gets settled 1 turn later, which could lead to us not getting our ideal spot due to the AI claiming it one turn before we get there (this has happened to me many times). Even if we get our spot, that city will forever be one turn behind in development and growth. Every thing that that our capital and city #3 produces will then be 1 turn later. If we use our capital as a settler pump, every settler it produces will be delayed by 1 turn and every city will be 1 turn behind.

It's called the ripple affect. A tiny stimulus can have a large impact down the road. I heard some silly butterfly analogy where a butterfly flapping it's wings in Canada can cause a tornado in Italy. Ridiculous, I know, but in the game of Civ, it can and does happen all the time.

The question boils down to: Do you like butterflies or not?

 

[Mitchum]

Excellent summary. I agree that it is a compromise and only time will tell if the correct choice was made.

OK. Enough pixels on this turnset, me thinks. Both sides have made their arguments which have been considered by the rest of the team.

The die is cast. The team has spoken. The decision has been made. Go forward and make us proud, grasshopper!!

 

[BLubmuz]

6. At least Unclethrill and BLubmuz have reviewed and understand Dhoomstriker's agruments for 3 and 5. Yes, this information came later than you would have liked, but it did come in before the turn set was played so it should weigh in on our decision, no?
7. Neither Unclethrill and BLubmuz are willing to change their votes based on this new information (items 3 and 5).

If this is the case (and item 6 is the most important to me), then the team has decided to move forward with warrior first. I support the team's decision assuming the above is correct.

I'm just a bit surprised that more of us weren't swayed by Dhoomstriker's ability to accomplish all of our goals with minimal compromise. The current plan is a compromise in my opinion.

Even if i have read all the arguments for worker first, i don't find them enough to change.
The settler 1 turn earlier i asked yesterday was a measure of the weakness of Dhoom's arguments. If we don't even gain 1 measly turn on that settler delaying the worker 1 more turn, how can be our decision so game-breaking? What do we gain so important to worth pages and pages of posts? Maybe i'm wrong, but in any case i'm not having fun on all this.

I still believe this is a minor decision, worth nothing more than few posts to be decided.

 

[unclethrill]

I have one thought here that just came to my mind. I agree that what we're discussing seems trivial, but I can assure you that it is not. The current output of our entire empire on T18 is +4F, 1H and 11C (16 basic units). A missed worker turn is equivalent to some number of basic units close to 11 (the number seems to change depending on who's talking about it). This means that missing a worker turn is almost the same as missing a full turn of our empire's output.

Later in the game, this waste isn't as noticible (i.e. 11 units is <<10% of our empire's output). It's still wasteful, but it's less critical. Early in the game, losing a turn's worth of output can be huge. Consider that everything that happens early in the game has huge leverage (similar to compound interest). A small loss now snowballs into a bigger and bigger loss as the game goes on. For example, city 3 gets settled 1 turn later, which could lead to us not getting our ideal spot due to the AI claiming it one turn before we get there (this has happened to me many times). Even if we get our spot, that city will forever be one turn behind in development and growth. Every thing that that our capital and city #3 produces will then be 1 turn later. If we use our capital as a settler pump, every settler it produces will be delayed by 1 turn and every city will be 1 turn behind.

It's called the ripple affect. A tiny stimulus can have a large impact down the road. I heard some silly butterfly analogy where a butterfly flapping it's wings in Canada can cause a tornado in Italy. Ridiculous, I know, but in the game of Civ, it can and does happen all the time.

The question boils down to: Do you like butterflies or not?

Honestly, I gave everyone a chance to change their mind and I figured that if anyone wants to go worker first then that would make a tie and I would change my vote. I can see the benefit of Dhoom's and your argument and since we are agreed that we won't explore east (much) since that stops us from getting to the fogbusting location then that 1 extra worker turn makes better sense IMO. The only reason I have held my ground was on principle ( I don't like the arguments that have been made for why we should wait and it seems like bullying to me).

So long story short, my changing of my vote won't matter unless someone else does too (since BLubmuz has the tie breaker). I don't think that this one turn difference will cause such a snowball effect that we will win or lose on this decision and I really want to play my TS tonight. I will play in an hour and I will complete the warrior as voted on unless someone else changes their mind too and then I will switch to the worker.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

If attacking the AI was to happen in your TS and you thought that attacking another one was smart then it would be a valid vote. If you are just making ridiculous posts since you can't seem to convince teammates to choose your plan over someone else's then all we have are thread spam and considering that we are now at double any other team on posts, I don't think we need that.

I'm glad that you got as far as half of my meaning. I compared a ridiculous voting poll to the majority of the voting polls that have gone on here.

You admit that starting a voting poll with incomplete information and with incomplete options makes no sense. Now re-examine most of the voting polls and you will see that they, too, were done with either incomplete options or incomplete information, sometimes both. They are just as ridiculous as my intentionally-ridiculous example.

The fact is, there are only 4 people who have spoken and voted since the last relevant information has come into play. 3 MORE PLAYERS must cast their votes. Any previous voting poll results for incomplete or premature polls are invalid.

ALSO, we HAVE NOT HAD 4 PLAYERS VOTING FOR EXCLUDING TATA FROM THE TEAM! Just because a couple of players say something, does not make it so. Right now, we require 4 players to vote. 4 players have not voted to get rid of Tata, so instead of screwing around with trying to kick him off of the team, we should be trying to contact him or getting an Admin to contact him to see if he wants to keep playing.


What's really got me riled up is when we put in the effort to run test games and prove that things like Warrior 3 should come after Settler 2, and everyone seems to agree on it, even BLubz, and then he throws out that idea again, using that to try and justify the unsupportable idea of settling east. He is promising a false dream in order to support his point, and in so doing, promises to vote to throw away all of the results of our test games. He lowers our research rate, throwing off Havr's and others' Oracle tests. He throws off our REX plan. He throws away our tests about Barbs in the west becoming a problem. He throws away all of our economic calculations. All without test games (which he has said are a VERY IMPORTANT PART OF A SGOTM MANY TIMES) to back up his statements and IN FACT, with test games that others have run which PROVE HIS SUGGESTIONS ARE INFERIOR. It's just ridiculous. Anyone looking in from the outside will agree. SunTzuWu will be laughing like a maniac when he finally reads these messages, realizing that his decisions were 100% justified.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The decision has been made. Go forward and make us proud, grasshopper!!

What decision? The PPP IS STILL INCOMPLETE!
UT still hasn't made it clear where he's going to send Warrior 2.

We do not have clear consensus on where Warrior 2 will go. If Warrior 2 comes out at the start of the turnset, then he needs a PPP to tell us what he's going to do with it and we have to agree on it. THESE MOVEMENTS WILL AFFECT FUTURE TURNSETS AND THUS MUST HAVE THOSE TURNSETS IN MIND WHEN THE MOVEMENTS ARE LISTED. If he's going east, he has to be specific with how far and for how long he goes before he turns back.

I disagree on going east, UNLESS someone runs a test game to prove that doing so is viable, while still meeting our other goals. Without that test, he will very possibly fight an Animal, have to Heal, and then not have planned for this fact and thus end up running out of time to get us back to the south and the west.

Who's going to run the test game? Or are we going to give up on going east, using the extra turns to scout BLUE SQUARES, followed by ORANGE SQUARES, followed by getting to the ideal place in the west SAFELY. Who's going to do it? Cuz until it happens, I am not in favour of us going east.

I vote that UT should run this test game himself. He's so anxious to play and he's the one who needs practice with avoiding Barb Animals. He'd be the ideal person to do it, don't you think?

He just needs to play up until Turn 50 in a practice game. It's not hard, and he has time to play. We've all done it in less time that it will take me to have written this message.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Even if i have read all the arguments for worker first, i don't find them enough to change.
The settler 1 turn earlier i asked yesterday was a measure of the weakness of Dhoom's arguments. If we don't even gain 1 measly turn on that settler delaying the worker 1 more turn, how can be our decision so game-breaking? What do we gain so important to worth pages and pages of posts? Maybe i'm wrong, but in any case i'm not having fun on all this.

I still believe this is a minor decision, worth nothing more than few posts to be decided.

And that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Let's wait to hear what the other 3 members of the team have to say.

As you yourself said, Tata has not indicated that he is not too busy to be active. So, get out there and contact him. Maybe it's not clear to him that we want his input. So, be a good team captain and do your best to contact him and let him know, instead of giving us excuses and not trying to contact him.

 

[BLubmuz]

The fact is, there are only 4 people who have spoken and voted since the last relevant information has come into play. 3 MORE PLAYERS must cast their votes. Any previous voting poll results for incomplete or premature polls are invalid.

Again: why me?
Why not anyone else who voted for warrior first and not revised his vote?

Because i voted last?

OK, if this makes you feel better, now i change my vote again. I abstain.

If my voting polls are incomplete or else, just state it at the right time. I'll teach you how:
- you quote the poll
- you copy/paste it in your answer
- then you propose your modified poll, stating the reason(s) why the previous was not good enough

Now, the decision is took and not by me. Throw your spears at anybody else.

 

[unclethrill]

I'm glad that you got as far as half of my meaning. I compared a ridiculous voting poll to the majority of the voting polls that have gone on here.

You admit that starting a voting poll with incomplete information and with incomplete options makes no sense. Now re-examine most of the voting polls and you will see that they, too, were done with either incomplete options or incomplete information, sometimes both. They are just as ridiculous as my intentionally-ridiculous example.

The fact is, there are only 4 people who have spoken and voted since the last relevant information has come into play. 3 MORE PLAYERS must cast their votes. Any previous voting poll results for incomplete or premature polls are invalid.

ALSO, we HAVE NOT HAD 4 PLAYERS VOTING FOR EXCLUDING TATA FROM THE TEAM! Just because a couple of players say something, does not make it so. Right now, we require 4 players to vote. 4 players have not voted to get rid of Tata, so instead of screwing around with trying to kick him off of the team, we should be trying to contact him or getting an Admin to contact him to see if he wants to keep playing.


What's really got me riled up is when we put in the effort to run test games and prove that things like Warrior 3 should come after Settler 2, and everyone seems to agree on it, even BLubz, and then he throws out that idea again, using that to try and justify the unsupportable idea of settling east. He is promising a false dream in order to support his point, and in so doing, promises to vote to throw away all of the results of our test games. He lowers our research rate, throwing off Havr's and others' Oracle tests. He throws off our REX plan. He throws away our tests about Barbs in the west becoming a problem. He throws away all of our economic calculations. All without test games (which he has said are a VERY IMPORTANT PART OF A SGOTM MANY TIMES) to back up his statements and IN FACT, with test games that others have run which PROVE HIS SUGGESTIONS ARE INFERIOR. It's just ridiculous. Anyone looking in from the outside will agree. SunTzuWu will be laughing like a maniac when he finally reads these messages, realizing that his decisions were 100% justified.

And this is why I have fought against you on changing my vote. You have run new tests yet you have given us no new info. We get some amount of extra production for 1 turn and we want to send the warrior W to fogbust. That is the long and short of the 8 pages of post that you have gone on about. When you don't get your way you resort to name calling and telling others that their suggestions "are inferior". No one has told you that YOUR SUGGESTIONS ARE STUPID AND YOUR NOT AS GREAT A PLAYER AS YOU THINK YOUR ARE. That would be rude and disrespectful yet you feel completely free to point out that any suggestions that aren't perfect by your standards are ridiculous and shouldn't even be suggested and feel confident that you are so much smarter than everyone else such that you can correct grammar and spelling in posts.
I don't appreciate it. Now you want to make references to STW quitting the team because he couldn't get along with the group. Well feel free to follow his lead. I would like to win this game and I like to learn from all the team members but you on the other hand feel like your only reason for being here is to teach us how stupid we are. I play this game to have fun not to be disrespected by someone I don't even know.
If you are willing to get off the high horse and start being nice to everyone on this team then great, let's wipe the slate clean and start working as a team otherwise I can be a total a$$ too.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

As I said, I am happy if people vote a certain way after being informed. Only 4 of us have had a chance to express their opinions after the latest info has been revealed. It's not about "changing votes" at all. The first poll was invalid. Only 4 opinions have been expressed. This situation will be true even if the majority of the team were on "my side" and then I came up with strong arguments in favour of "the other side," and even if I did not think that those arguments for "the other side" were enough to sway me, I would still give the rest of the team a fair chance for them to be swayed. I'd still say in that case that the initial poll was invalid, because the voting was done on incomplete information, even though doing so might "lose me the vote."

I don't care about winning votes. But I do care if we make our decisions for the wrong reasons. We'll regret those decisions later. I'd rather play forward with a team that understands why we make the decisions and then live with them.

We got lucky in getting Hinduism. If we'd missed it, I think that we could all feel happy for having tried for it, because we understood the risks involved.

All we've got now are some wishy-washy points about a "random amount of eastward exploration." Give us some concrete facts about exactly how much exploration we are talking about, support it with a test game, especially one which allows for 4 turns of healing from a Barb Animal attack in the east, and then we can be in agreement about how much eastward exploration to do.


What I DO NOT want to see is some "untested amount" of eastward exploration being done, then us finding out we are stuck between not scouting south in time (i.e. before a Settler is ready) or not fog-busting west in time (in place close to Turn 50), or worse, not being able to do either in time.


By skipping going east, we can SAFELY meet our BLUE SQUARE plus ORANGE SQUARE exploration, plus have LOTS of time to go west SAFELY in case there is a Bear that we need to avoid, while having lots of time to get into place. That kind of a reason to build Warrior 2 before Worker 1 MAKES GOOD SENSE. I can see that argument working. But unless we're going that route with Warrior 2, we need to have a precise limit on how far he can safely explore to the east BEFORE Unclethrill plays, or else his turnset could have catastrophic effects on the rest of our game.

 

[BLubmuz]

And that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Let's wait to hear what the other 3 members of the team have to say.

As you yourself said, Tata has not indicated that he is not too busy to be active. So, get out there and contact him. Maybe it's not clear to him that we want his input. So, be a good team captain and do your best to contact him and let him know, instead of giving us excuses and not trying to contact him.

First, the present 6 active members of this team were all on line and posted, even a lot, between my decision and now. They already expressed a vote and they not changed it.

Tata
please, verify by yourself, bu there's no way to send him(her?) a PM or a mail. The only way to contact him is via Alan, who is damn busy with his political activity those days.

I ensure you i will do so if i see no sign from him until Friday. Then i'll ask Alan (who will be free since the elections in UK are Thursday) to contact him. Then we'll see, buy i think he (Tata) has not interest in participating or he's been already active in this thread.

BTW, i suspect you're a woman. Often you seem my wife in her worst moments.

 

[Mitchum]

Just like the butterflies wings, this situation has escalated into something larger than it should be (hah, proof of the butterfly effect). Some of us feel like we're not being heard. Some of us feel like we're catching spears. Some of us feel like the rules are not being followed. And the list goes on.

If this team is to work together effectively, we need a clear set of rules that are agreed by all and followed. When does voting take place? What constitutes a valid poll? Can people change their votes if new information is presented? What constitutes a complete PPP? How much time is required to review a new PPP? How much time is required if a PPP has material changes? What constitutes a material change?

We made an effort to finalize the rules, but it seems that there is still some disagreement here. So, we have two major options as I see it (note, this is not an official poll, just my thoughts):

1. Let cooler heads prevail. A lot of information and testing was done at the last minute. Let's step back, put together a complete PPP and discuss it. If there are any disagreements, then we put together a fair poll and take a vote.

2. Move forward with the turnset as written (whether complete or not), and live with the outcome, good, bad or ugly.​

From my viewpoint, things are a bit heated today (and were yesterday as well). I think a clear set of rules (and less heated discussions) will avoid such conflicts in the future.

BLubmuz has been asking for inputs on the rules. If anyone is interested, please take his post, mark it up and post it for the team to see and evaluate. We cannot change the rules until this has happened.

I truly think we have a good strategy and can do well in this game. To some people, parts of the game are trivial and don't add much value based on experience. For others, the opposite is true and these same parts of the game are not trivial. When that happens, we will end up debating things that are important to some and a waste of time to the others. This is just something that we'll have to deal with when it comes up, because it will come up again and again. And, at the end of the day, if we work together as a team and treat each other with respect, we WILL do the best we can with the skills we have on the team. If we keep going like we are, the whole thing falls apart and people get ugly, spiteful, resentful or just quit. None of these or good options, but I can see them in our future if we're not careful.

 

[BLubmuz]

By skipping going east, we can SAFELY meet our BLUE SQUARE plus ORANGE SQUARE exploration, plus have LOTS of time to go west SAFELY in case there is a Bear that we need to avoid, while having lots of time to get into place. That kind of a reason to build Warrior 2 before Worker 1 MAKES GOOD SENSE. I can see that argument working. But unless we're going that route with Warrior 2, we need to have a precise limit on how far he can safely explore to the east BEFORE Unclethrill plays, or else his turnset could have catastrophic effects on the rest of our game.

This is the first thing you posted today which makes sense.

I've set that limit: 8 tiles E from the capital.
then the warrior will draw a V path SW from this limit and NW from the southern limit (the V point), unfogging as many tiles possible south, then finally head W-N-W

This way we unfog some tiles E and S and the warrior will safely be in place by the target date.

We can test 100 times, but we cannot avoid he dies to a bear in the real game.
Not goin' E, nor goin' W. Live and hope.

 

[unclethrill]

As I said, I am happy if people vote a certain way after being informed. Only 4 of us have had a chance to express their opinions after the latest info has been revealed. It's not about "changing votes" at all. The first poll was invalid. Only 4 opinions have been expressed. This situation will be true even if the majority of the team were on "my side" and then I came up with strong arguments in favour of "the other side," and even if I did not think that those arguments for "the other side" were enough to sway me, I would still give the rest of the team a fair chance for them to be swayed. I'd still say in that case that the initial poll was invalid, because the voting was done on incomplete information, even though doing so might "lose me the vote."

I don't care about winning votes. But I do care if we make our decisions for the wrong reasons. We'll regret those decisions later. I'd rather play forward with a team that understands why we make the decisions and then live with them.

We got lucky in getting Hinduism. If we'd missed it, I think that we could all feel happy for having tried for it, because we understood the risks involved.

All we've got now are some wishy-washy points about a "random amount of eastward exploration." Give us some concrete facts about exactly how much exploration we are talking about, support it with a test game, especially one which allows for 4 turns of healing from a Barb Animal attack in the east, and then we can be in agreement about how much eastward exploration to do.


What I DO NOT want to see is some "untested amount" of eastward exploration being done, then us finding out we are stuck between not scouting south in time (i.e. before a Settler is ready) or not fog-busting west in time (in place close to Turn 50), or worse, not being able to do either in time.


By skipping going east, we can SAFELY meet our BLUE SQUARE plus ORANGE SQUARE exploration, plus have LOTS of time to go west SAFELY in case there is a Bear that we need to avoid, while having lots of time to get into place. That kind of a reason to build Warrior 2 before Worker 1 MAKES GOOD SENSE. I can see that argument working. But unless we're going that route with Warrior 2, we need to have a precise limit on how far he can safely explore to the east BEFORE Unclethrill plays, or else his turnset could have catastrophic effects on the rest of our game.

I think we have all agreed that deep east is off the table. I have run tests but since we have no real information on what is east I can only make so many concrete idea. The warrior would explore 3 -4 SE then turn W and explore the peninsula. My TS ends as soon as the worker is done so the warrior needs to be within 10 spaces of the FB point. By finishing the warrior first we trade the 8-14 H/F/C for 4 spaces east exploration.

As I stated earlier, I agree that the little bit of east explore we will get is not worth the loss of production but before I could change my vote it got to be a pi$$ing match between Dhoom and anyone who disagreed. Whether you think that the poll was posted too early or not, I though we agreed that the up player would make that decision. You chewed out BLubmuz for posting a poll on Irgy's TS so I posted my own poll. It was based on what I felt was the correct information and the additional info does not require additional votes IMO.

Now with that said, since BLubmuz is willing to change his vote to abstain and Tata is MIA currently, that leaves 2 for warrior and 2 for worker and as I said I would change to worker if anyone change their vote. So I change my vote to worker since we get so little out of the warrior first.


With that said, I will play soon and I hope that moving forward we can all be a little nicer to each other and their ideas.

BTW. I have run several test and I feel confident that the warrior will remain alive and both lions too if I can help it.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

OK, if this makes you feel better, now i change my vote again. I abstain.

No, that doesn't make me feel better at all. You've gotten the facts, you've had your chance to weigh the sides, and you've made your decision. It should count.

Unclethrill is right, I am being harsh on you guys and I apologize. I am going through a grief stage and you guys are helping me to get through the second stage of grief, the Anger stage, which comes after the Denial stage. So, thank you for allowing me to take my anger out on you guys.

 

[BLubmuz]

(...)
I truly think we have a good strategy and can do well in this game. To some people, parts of the game are trivial and don't add much value based on experience. For others, the opposite is true and these same parts of the game are not trivial. When that happens, we will end up debating things that are important to some and a waste of time to the others. This is just something that we'll have to deal with when it comes up, because it will come up again and again. And, at the end of the day, if we work together as a team and treat each other with respect, we WILL do the best we can with the skills we have on the team. If we keep going like we are, the whole thing falls apart and people get ugly, spiteful, resentful or just quit. None of these or good options, but I can see them in our future if we're not careful.

Holy words.
Just don't ask to vote again.
Let's go ahead and close this one. We're plenty of time to discuss about next TS. Your first one!

 

[Mitchum]

... but before I could change my vote it got to be a pi$$ing match between Dhoom and anyone who disagreed.

I think this is the rub of the whole issue. Everyone expresses himself differently. When you're typing your thoughts, a lot is left to interpretation by the reader. Plus, there can be cultural issues or language barriers that cause heartburn. I don't think Dhoomstriker was trying to belittle anyone (at least I don't think he was). The way I read it, he just feels strongly about the no-compromise test game he was able to demonstrate. He put a lot of time and effort into it and it appeared (right or wrong), that some of the team was disregarding the outcome of his hard work or worse they weren't even acknowledging it. Casting a vote on principle alone can lead to sub-optimal play and a feeling that peoples voices are not being heard. Pi$$ing matches lead nowhere...

With that said, I will play soon and I hope that moving forward we can all be a little nicer to each other and their ideas.

Things get said in the heat of battle. I've done it many times. I hope that we can put this behind us and play as an effective team going forward.