SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[unclethrill]

So seems like everything is settled. Are you gonna play tonight before something happens and we have to delay for 3 or 4 days?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

So seems like everything is settled. Are you gonna play tonight before something happens and we have to delay for 3 or 4 days?

In my mind, there is still one outstanding issue to test:
Can we get Warrior 3 out any sooner without delaying Settler 2?

Here are some things that could be tried:
1. While Settler 2 is still being built but either only 1 or both Corns are unimproved, we spend 1 turn on building Warrior* 3. We'd need to do so as late as possible, so that the completion of the Settler happens within 15 turns. We'd sacrifice 1-2 Commerce (buy not working 1-2 unimproved Corns--if a Corn is improved, we must work it) while only growing from 0-1 Corns.

The hope would be that the extra Food from 2 Irrigated Corns will make completing Settler 2 occur at the same time, i.e. we hopefully wouldn't delay Settler 2, or else this approach wouldn't work.


2. After Settler 2 is built, we work as many Hammer-based squares as possible, while always working the improved Corn squares (i.e. always working 1F + 2H squares). I don't think that we'll get Warrior 3 in 5 turns this way; I'm pretty sure that this method will still get us Warrior 3 in 6 turns, but it's worth double-checking.

* Edited

 

[BLubmuz]

In my mind, there is still one outstanding issue to test:
Can we get Warrior 3 out any sooner without delaying Settler 2?

Do you mean settler 3? We decided to name the one just started settler 2. right?

 

[Mitchum]

1. While Settler 2 is still being built but either only 1 or both Corns are unimproved, we spend 1 turn on building Worker 3. We'd need to do so as late as possible, so that the completion of the Settler happens within 15 turns. We'd sacrifice 1-2 Commerce (buy not working 1-2 unimproved Corns--if a Corn is improved, we must work it) while only growing from 0-1 Corns.

I assume that by "Worker 3" you mean "Warrior 3". I'll run these tests and report back.

I may not be able to play tonight. I have a friend coming over for drinks and to watch the basketball game. I'd rather not play when I'm a bit tipsy.

I will likely play in 18 to 20 hours. Let me run some tests to see if I can get warrior 3 out sooner and update my PPP per all of the comments here. Then I'll play tomorrow morning my time.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Do you mean settler 3? We decided to name the one just started settler 2. right?

Yes, you are correct. I'll edit my message..... EDIT: No, I do mean Settler 2.

The idea would be that we delay a turn of building Settler 2 when there aren't a lot of "Hammers from Food from unimproved Corns" going into Settler 2, such that a later turn with "a lot of Hammers from Food from improved Corns" could make up for the missing turn. It might not work, but it might.

I assume that by "Worker 3" you mean "Warrior 3".

Yes, I meant Warrior 3. I updated the mistake.

I'll run these tests and report back.

Thank you. I was hoping that you'd volunteer, since, as the UP player, it would probably be easier for you to test the results than for me to write a novel explaining precisely how to obtain them (which, again, may not be possible--it depends how much leeway we have with Settler 2 in terms of overflow Hammers that can instead be used earlier on Warrior 3 when we aren't working as many improved Corns). The testing may come to nothing, but it's worth trying.

 

[Mitchum]

1. While Settler 2 is still being built but either only 1 or both Corns are unimproved, we spend 1 turn on building Warrior* 3. We'd need to do so as late as possible, so that the completion of the Settler happens within 15 turns. We'd sacrifice 1-2 Commerce (buy not working 1-2 unimproved Corns--if a Corn is improved, we must work it) while only growing from 0-1 Corns.

The hope would be that the extra Food from 2 Irrigated Corns will make completing Settler 2 occur at the same time, i.e. we hopefully wouldn't delay Settler 2, or else this approach wouldn't work.

On T48, I switched from settler 2 to warrior 3 with a citizen on an improved corn and two 1F 2H tiles (second corn is not farmed yet). Then on T49, I switched back to settler 2. Doing this delays the settler by one turn until T55 and offers no improvement on warrior 3. No go!

2. After Settler 2 is built, we work as many Hammer-based squares as possible, while always working the improved Corn squares (i.e. always working 1F + 2H squares). I don't think that we'll get Warrior 3 in 5 turns this way; I'm pretty sure that this method will still get us Warrior 3 in 6 turns, but it's worth double-checking.[/B]

My current PPP already does this. I work two farmed corns and one 1F 2H tile right after comleting settler 2 and starting warrior 3. Then, when I grow to 4 pops a few turns later, I start working the plains hill as well (2H 1C) (commerce seems more important than food at the moment, right? We can't whip and there are no improved tiles for a citizen to work anyway). This gets the warrior completed on T50 as planned in the PPP.

The only way to get warrior 3 out one turn sooner is to complete worker 1 before warrior 2. Oops. Too late...

 

[Mitchum]

OK, I've run the test and updated my PPP per the teams comments. If there are no additional comments, I will play my turn set in approximately 18 hours.

Note: I could play now, but my PPP has not been up for 24 hours yet and neither havr nor Tata have commented on it yet.

 

[BLubmuz]

On T48, I switched from settler 2 to warrior 3 with a citizen on an improved corn and two 1F 2H tiles (second corn is not farmed yet). Then on T49, I switched back to settler 2. Doing this delays the settler by one turn until T55 and offers no improvement on warrior 3. No go!


My current PPP already does this. I work two farmed corns and one 1F 2H tile right after comleting settler 2 and starting warrior 3. Then, when I grow to 4 pops a few turns later, I start working the plains hill as well (2H 1C) (commerce seems more important than food at the moment, right? We can't whip and there are no improved tiles for a citizen to work anyway). This gets the warrior completed on T50 as planned in the PPP.

The only way to get warrior 3 out one turn sooner is to complete worker 1 before warrior 2. Oops. Too late...

Can you post how many turns to frow 4?
i tend to discard to work 2H+1C, but instead 2*1F+2H or (2F+1H)+(1F+2H). I suppose the improvement right after the silver will be the PH, right?


OK, some food for tought, alert your 2 neurons.
I used the strategy layer to place some city. Of course the Eastward ones are totally approximate.

 

[BLubmuz]

Silverado:

Silver City will be founded on T55 1SW of the deer (2W of the silver) in Irgy’s original suggested spot. The pros and cons of this spot vs. settling on the ice to get another silver resource and a whale tile while giving up the deer can be found here. Silver City will build warrior 4 and will have its only citizen work the silver resource (improved or not) for my entire turn set (and likely the next two as well).

POSSIBLE DISCUSSION POINT: Settle as suggested above or on the ice? AGREED to settle in the original location as described above.

Please tell your 2 neurons to have a bit of agreement between themselves.
Or find another compass dealer.

 

[Mitchum]

So i start a discussion on next TS, mine, BTW.
Start research on BW and build warriors in Dehli until size 4 (we need 2, at least: 1 for guarding Dehli and one for scout) and let Silverado build 2 warriors (again, 1 for the city and 1 for scout) and a worker?
This will total 6 warriors, provided they all survive. 4 are needed to meet one of the conditions.

I like how you think. Let's start working on the next turnset to speed up our play!!

Regarding the warriors, in my tests, Delhi grows to size 4 on T58 (my turnset). Once Warrior 3 is complete in Delhi, it should start building Settler 3 right away at size 4. If you grew to size 5 quickly while building a warrior, this would add about 5 turns to Settler 3 (testing for exact difference would be needed). We're already working 2 unimproved tiles at size 4 (at least until the plains hill mine is finished and the farm 2S is done). Why would we want to work yet another unimproved tile?

Warrior 4 will come from Silverado on T62 and Warrior 5 will follow on T67 IIRC. That means we'll have 3 warriors scouting / fog busting north and east before settler 3 is done (T70ish). I ran an extended test game and think that 3 warriors (2 exploring and 1 escorting the settler) should be plenty.

The trick will be to unfog enough land with 2 exploring warriors (18 total warrior turns with some of these turns being within our cultural boundaries) so that settler 3 and warrior 5 know where to go. If, through testing, you discover that this isn't enough time to find a good spot, then we'll have to reconsider the option of building another warrior in Delhi and delaying settler 3 by some 5 turns.

 

[Mitchum]

POSSIBLE DISCUSSION POINT for BLubmuz' turnset:
If anyone wants to 100% avoid Barbs from spawning in the west, then we'll need to use a 3rd Warrior to do it. There's always the risk that one of our two Fog Busters will die in a fight and then Barbs will start to overrun that area. It doesn't have to be Warrior 3 that goes out there, but the sooner that we put a 3rd Warrior out there, the sooner that we can claim 100% that the western area is ours. We may not want to do so for even Warriors 3, 4, and 5, but perhaps for Warrior 6, since those 3 Warriors will PROBABLY be required in order to properly fog-bust and defend City 3 (if it gets placed towards Zara).

So, please give your opinion on whether you think that 100% fog-busting the west is more important than eastward exploration (that would mean sending Warrior 3 west) and if not, then how important do you think a Barb-free west should rank (City 3 is more important but a fog-free west is more important than City 4, or maybe Cities 3 and 4 are both more important, or whatever else you have to say on the matter).

I think this is a good way to go. I like 100% containment. This allows us to "forget about" the peninsula while we focus our expansion eastward. I'm thinking that one of our exploring warriors can start out in a NE direction and turn left after going out about 8 or 10 tiles in a counter-clockwise direction to end up due north of Delhi. He could then take his position on the peninsula as needed.

 

[Mitchum]

Can you post how many turns to frow 4?
i tend to discard to work 2H+1C, but instead 2*1F+2H or (2F+1H)+(1F+2H). I suppose the improvement right after the silver will be the PH, right?

We grow to size 4 during my turnset. We'll grow to size 5 on T63 at max food or T64 at max hammers, but the warrior will still need some turns to complete after growing to 5.

Yes, the PH is the next tile to be improved, followed by the farm 2S of Delhi.

 

[Mitchum]

Please tell your 2 neurons to have a bit of agreement between themselves.
Or find another compass dealer.

SW was changed to NW. Thanks. At least I knew what I meant...

 

[Mitchum]

OK, some food for tought, alert your 2 neurons.
I used the strategy layer to place some city. Of course the Eastward ones are totally approximate.

Some of these look fine for now. In the real map, we don't know what is just W of the northern peninsula (did you unfog those yourself or did I screw up the test save). There could be seafood there that changes our minds. There are also too many fogged tiles near the stone and to the N and E. I would rather not spend too much time on this until we know more.

 

[BLubmuz]

T58 – Delhi grows to 4. Delhi citizens work 2 corns, plains hill (2H 1C) and 2* 1F 2H tile. Warrior 3 done in 2 turns. Delhi will grow to 5 pops in 6 turns. Silver mine completed. Monotheism in 2 turns.
T59 – Partial farm 2S of Delhi.
T60 – Learn Monotheism. Set research to Bronze Working (temporary). Warrior 3 completed in Delhi. Set build to settler 3 (temporary). Worker 1 starts mine on plains hill.

[/SPOILER]Espionage – I noticed that we have as many points against Zara as he has against us (+/- 4). This may mean nothing as he's putting as many points against us as we're putting against him as Dhoomstriker predicted. However, it could also mean that we're on a continent alone with Zara... T36 and he's the only AI we've met?

I slightly corrected your worked tiles.
There's a sure thing: warrior 3 (4th, actually) must be out before settler 3 if we cna manage to time the growth to 5 with that warrior completed, great. Otherwise there's no point in build a settler and not grow when we need a warrior out to scout where that settler has to... settle.
Thus, any combination of tiles driving to fast grwoth and fast warrior completion is welcome.

I start thinking that we share this continent (maybe small?) with Zara only. In the test game you posted, i met Napo, Shaka and Biz around this time.

 

[Mitchum]

I slightly corrected your worked tiles.
There's a sure thing: warrior 3 (4th, actually) must be out before settler 3 if we cna manage to time the growth to 5 with that warrior completed, great. Otherwise there's no point in build a settler and not grow when we need a warrior out to scout where that settler has to... settle.
Thus, any combination of tiles driving to fast grwoth and fast warrior completion is welcome.

I start thinking that we share this continent (maybe small?) with Zara only. In the test game you posted, i met Napo, Shaka and Biz around this time.

OK, so you changed from working the plains hill (2H 1C) to another plains forest (1F 2H). At least in my testing, the bottleneck was always research, never growth and never hammers. So, although you would like to grow to 5, I personally don't see the value in it if that 5th citizen is not working an improved square. That 5th citizen will only net us one extra unit into the settler (remember that the 5th citizen consumes 2 of the 3 units he produces). If you want to make this change, I'd like to see two things:

1. A test game that shows that you can still get Writing by T90.
2. A benefit for getting that one extra food at this stage of the game.

My MM details are based on multiple test games played well beyond my turn set (all the way to T115 IIRC). I'd hate to monkey with that on a whim, only to find out we're a couple of beakers short with nothing notable gained.

In general, I'm all about food and growing a city. In this case, with science being our bottleneck and REX being critical, I'm not sure what a few extra food sitting in a mostly empty food basket will do to support or short-term goals.

See post 710 for additional details.

 

[BLubmuz]

I think this is a good way to go. I like 100% containment. This allows us to "forget about" the peninsula while we focus our expansion eastward. I'm thinking that one of our exploring warriors can start out in a NE direction and turn left after going out about 8 or 10 tiles in a counter-clockwise direction to end up due north of Delhi. He could then take his position on the peninsula as needed.

Warrior 3 must go E or the setller won't know where to go.
But warrior 4 (from Silverado) will follow soon and this one can go W.

Some of these look fine for now. In the real map, we don't know what is just W of the northern peninsula (did you unfog those yourself or did I screw up the test save). There could be seafood there that changes our minds. There are also too many fogged tiles near the stone and to the N and E. I would rather not spend too much time on this until we know more.

Let's consider what we know, mean the W side. If no resources on the unfogged tiles, i think this is the way to go.

A pretty easy fogbusting is that 1W of stone is a FP. Unless we'll see interesting resources now under the fog around the mountain, it's the only way to have stone and a city completely seizing the map for Zara. The only alternative to this placement is 1N of the mountain, to have the stone in BFC. But there must be resources there to compensate the lost of FPs.

You can also note that i let the crabs outside the BFC of the westernmost city, since otherwise this will have too many water tiles and no fresh water.
No fresh water for the possible GP farm on the 3*clams+marble+cows.
Another more than decent GP farm can be the pig+cows+2*fish W of Silverado.

Of course i agree that it's soon now, but i start knowing you guys...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Can you post how many turns to frow 4?
i tend to discard to work 2H+1C, but instead 2*1F+2H or (2F+1H)+(1F+2H).

Do you mean "Grow to 4?" It took 4 turns in my test games to grow from Size 3 to Size 4 with 2 Corns irrigated.

I suppose the improvement right after the silver will be the PH, right?

Almost. The improvement RIGHT after the Silver will be the Grassland River for 1 turn, irrigating and then canceling the irrigation on the same turn. After that, Worker 1 will climb the Plains Hills River square and start mining.

I used the strategy layer to place some city. Of course the Eastward ones are totally approximate.

The only city that I think we'll all agree on is the yellow one, that crabs 3 Clams. I would consider even a city that overlaps the Cow and Marble, since the 3 Clams could be used for a Great Person farm and might not need the production squares in the long term.

Anyway, what are your goals in placing those cities? Do you have an approximate order of Resources that you'd like to grab or approximate ordering of types of cities (production city, great person city, commerce city, whatever else city) that you'd like to settle?

For example, the cities that you have placed are not really well-placed for a Cultural game, at least not in the Legendary City sense.


In terms of where to place cities, consider that settling on the Rice might be a decent option for a Coastal Commerce city, as it would mean that we could Cottage all of the Flood Plains, instead of having to irrigate one just to get the Rice irrigated after Civil Service is learned.


We'll eventually want to get a 3rd Warrior scouting in the west, so that we can scout the far west side where the Crab is, to see if there is value in putting a city by the Crab.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, so you changed from working the plains hill (2H 1C) to another plains forest (1F 2H). At least in my testing, the bottleneck was always research, never growth and never hammers.
See post 710 for additional details.

OK, if you're right and i think you are with all the tests you're doing, delay the settler 5 turns or 4 at best is not worth, since we're not working valuable tiles.

So i agree that warrior 3 will be followed by settler 3. Both will be sent E.
The W will be covered by the first warrior produced in Silverado.

I would say more: if warrior 5 (#2 from Silverado) can arrive east while w3 scouts NE, we can also squeeze settler #4 right after #3 to settle around those cows and definitely close the path for Zara.
In case this can penalize our research and put the Oracle at risk (not the wonder itself, the result) we can place the settler well guarded and plant the city only if we see an Ethiopian settler coming.

 

[BLubmuz]

Do you mean "Grow to 4?" It took 4 turns in my test games to grow from Size 3 to Size 4 with 2 Corns irrigated.
my Nth typo, yes.

Almost. The improvement RIGHT after the Silver will be the Grassland River for 1 turn, irrigating and then canceling the irrigation on the same turn. After that, Worker 1 will climb the Plains Hills River square and start mining.
it's right after, in this case

The only city that I think we'll all agree on is the yellow one, that crabs 3 Clams. I would consider even a city that overlaps the Cow and Marble, since the 3 Clams could be used for a Great Person farm and might not need the production squares in the long term.

To grab marble and stone and block Zara is the main goal.
Actually i can't see a good Legendary city W. Not enough production. Some good food, some decent commerce, nothing more. We must hope on the East.
The city on rice doesn't need more food, only production. It's definitely poor under that aspect. We'll have the crabs anyway after 3rd borders pop. 1 more health point, no way to place a decent city to work them.