SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

Edited: Updates are in red.
Espionage[/B] – I noticed that we have as many points against Zara as he has against us (+/- 4). This may mean nothing as he's putting as many points against us as we're putting against him as Dhoomstriker predicted. However, it could also mean that we're on a continent alone with Zara... T36 and he's the only AI we've met?

Was he the founder of Buddhisim?
If he is, and we are alone on the continent with him that will be good.
If he isn't, and we are along on the continent with him then we know that on the other there is going to be a Buddha love-nest.

(BTW, I don't know if you already discussed it in your later posts. I am trying to read my way now, as I was caught up with other stuff).
 
Note: I could play now, but my PPP has not been up for 24 hours yet and neither havr nor Tata have commented on it yet.

The PPP looks great. Play play play. (still reading, maybe you already played).

In general, for the future, if it come to the point that I was the only one that didn't comment then you can play (just assume I abstain). I try to read all discussion points and comment on them on time, but if I miss something there is no need to wait for me because you guys are much more experienced then me.
 
High-level Diplo Strategy Discussion
Was he the founder of Buddhisim?
Zara did not found Buddhism.

If he isn't, and we are along on the continent with him then we know that on the other there is going to be a Buddha love-nest.
That would be the ideal situation in terms of supporting our strategy.

We would simply need to build a city that allows Buddhism to spread to it (probably putting ourselves in No State Religion or Free Religion first, in order to reduce tensions with all of the Buddhist AIs)

...or else capture a city with Buddhism in it (harder to do if ALL of the AIs are Buddhist). If all of the AIs that have Buddhism are Buddhist, then we'd probably first want to convert one of them to our religion, get them to switch to it (which might mean first switch to it ourselves) and hope that doing so will make the others dislike that AI enough that they will not be Pleased or Friendly with them, so that we can attack that AI without worrying about a lot of "you delcared war on our Friend" negative Diplo modifiers with the other AIs.


Apostolic Palace
The one thing that we'll want to avoid is letting the Apostolic Palace be Buddhist. Hence, if we stay peaceful with Zara, one of our religions will spread to him and we can give him the tech to build it for us. Other than a very poor +4 Culture per turn from that Wonder, there is very little value in building it ourselves, if we can control most of the votes through domestic spread of that religion, as we'll still be able to secure ourselves a seat in the elections.


What I'm not certain about is if you can become the Apostolic Palace Resident if you aren't running the Apostolic Palace's religion as your State Religion. I think that you cannot be, but by that time, perhaps a united Buddhist world will be more than happy to gang up with us on Zara. We'd capture the Apostolic Palace, which would let us be the Resident even when not running its religion as our state religion.


Later, after many turns of war, Zara would be more than happy to take one of his cities back that contains a freshly minted United Nations, as part of our peace offering. With the largest population under our control, the world would vote us in as Secretary General and soon thereafter, Leader of the World.


Letting the Buddhists take the Apostolic Palace would be a nightmare, as then an Apostolic Palace victory might be on the table well before a United Nations victory is available, potentially losing us the game (even if we won as Religious Leader of the world, we'd lose this game).
 

Attachments

To grab marble and stone and block Zara is the main goal.
To what end do we need those Resources now? Do you have plans to chase after certain Wonders? Do tell, so that we can start thinking about how to make your dreams a reality (or allowing reality to set in and burst your dream bubbles).

Actually i can't see a good Legendary city W. Not enough production.
The best spots would probably be:
1. SE + E of the Marble (3 "Hills" plus the Stone, but a bit weak on Food and not AMAZING on the number of Cottages--9 or so)
2. NE + E of the Pig (2 "Hills" with plenty of Food, several Cottageable Plains squares to make up for some lowered production, and LOTS of Cottageable land)


The city on rice doesn't need more food, only production.
As a Commerce city, it wouldn't need much. It would mostly work Cottages and Coast. It would have some minor production from the Marble and 2 Plains Forest squares for helping to build a Library. The point of settling on the Rice is that you still get +1 Food in the city's centre, without having the burden of working a relatively junky (4 Food) square.

Note that ideas like this Rice city are just that: ideas. I just want you to think about possibilities, so that you see there are many possible ways to lay out our cities. I am not arguing for any particular layout at this point, especially until we know what our settling goals will be.


We'll have the crabs anyway after 3rd borders pop. 1 more health point, no way to place a decent city to work them.
Again, I disagree. From what we see now, a city could work the Crab and Fish, making for a nice Whipping and Great Person city, and it has several (up to 3) Plains Forest squares available to it. If there are more Seafood Resources to the west, we could settle at the western tip of that peninsula, for a mostly Food-based city.

There are a lot of options.


For example, if we want a city that is purely Food-based and gets as much Food as possible, then we'd settle a city to grab 2 Fish, 1 Pig, 1 Cow, and 2 Lakes, giving us 17 excess food. That would allow us to run 8 Specialists at a city Size of 13, making for a pretty sweet Great Person Farm. The tradeoff would be having less cities nearby, as we wouldn't have as many Food Resources to go around (which might be fine--Maintenance costs go up the more cities that you build).
 
Well, we are planning to get Theology pretty quick. Probably at T113 +-. We can even get it at T90 if we want to. This will probably delay the AI for getting it for a very long while. We will have monopoly on AP for some time, so we better use it. We can give Zara it right away.

On the otherhand, AP in the other continent is a true nightmare, and we should have marble early. We can build it ourselves just to make sure that they don't get it.

Q: If we start build the Hagia Sophia, will Zara know it and try to build AP instead? Or maybe it works the opposite - if we build a wonder he tries to build it too? Maybe we can use this.

One final point for thought:
If we give Theology to Zara then he might actually research Divine Right! Especially if he build the AP which will give him a good chance for GPro.
 
I finished catching-up.

What are the decisions that are on the table and need comment? I kinda lost track.
 
More High-level Strategy Discussion
We can give Zara it right away.
Almost right away. We will still need to research Alphabet first, which, from discussions that we've had on the subject, comes after Meditation in our tech path.


we should have marble early. We can build it ourselves just to make sure that they don't get it.
Just like the United Nations, the Apostolic Palace cannot be "sped up" by any particular Resource, such as Marble. This situation exists intentionally, since these Wonders can be key to an early win. A game with the appropriate Resource would be extremely unbalancing, so, for balance-purposes, neither of these Wonders has a Resource that speeds up its production.

Hence, we'd rather let an AI waste their Hammers on it, especially since Emperor-level AIs get a bit more of a production bonus than we do (essentially, their buildings and Wonders cost less than ours do, if I correctly recall the way that difficulty modifiers work).


Q: If we start build the Hagia Sophia, will Zara know it and try to build AP instead? Or maybe it works the opposite - if we build a wonder he tries to build it too? Maybe we can use this.
I'm not sure if this stuff is rumour-based or not. Certainly, a religious-oriented AI will prioritize the Apostolic Palace over the Hagia Sophia, but I'm not sure if what we build will have a direct impact or not.

If we COMPLETE the Hagia Sophia, that will certainly free up one of Zara's cities that might have started building the Hagia Sophia to instead build the Apostolic Palace, but that's only if he wasn't already building the Apostolic Palace in a different city.

The Hagia Sophia is a pretty junky Wonder, but it WOULD get us Great Engineer points. That's an expensive way to chase after Great Engineer points, though.


If we give Theology to Zara then he might actually research Divine Right! Especially if he build the AP which will give him a good chance for GPro.
I still have never seen any proof that AIs use Great People for Lightbulbing techs. If anyone has such proof, I'd love to hear about it.

I'd rather that Zara grab Divine Right than us. He's either likely to be our loyal buddy or our late-game Enemy Number 1. Either way, he'll probably stick to whatever religion we've been sharing with him. With us on Friendly terms, he'll trade away such a Monopoly tech, saving us the research time while allowing us to gun for the Spiral Minaret, if we want it.


The biggest risk is that an AI who grabs a lot of religions (which might be what Zara ends up with, if we allow religions to spread naturally to him before we spam Missionaries into his religion-less cities) is more likely to switch to Free Religion than an AI who only has one religion (such as, I don't know, say, Buddhism-only, which, if we are extremely lucky, will happen for 5 AIs :) ). But, if we make him our best buddy or our war target, we'll be able to get him to switch to a religion will relatively little difficulty, right?
 
I finished catching-up.

What are the decisions that are on the table and need comment? I kinda lost track.
Here are the things that I can think of. There might be more.

1. Where to put the Silverado ("Silver City") City. We have two choices (where Irgy marked it and the spot that picks up Whale, but really sucks as a long-term location, since there is no Food there).

2. We were discussing whether to build 2 Warriors in City 1 (Delhi) prior to building Settler 3, but I think that the only person who wanted to do so, BLubmuz, has seen that it would be a very inefficient choice to do so. We'd rather get Settler 3 out about 5 turns faster, while still having as many as 3 Warriors built before Settler 3 comes out (thanks to Silverado/Silver City building 2 Warriors and the capitol building 1 Warrior before Settler 3 is built). So, there's probably no further discussion required there--we're going for Warrior 3 -> Settler 3 in Delhi.

3. What other Wonders to go for. We might or might not want to settle Stone or Marble in order to help build them, so it would help if we knew what Wonders people wanted to target.

4. Should we use one of our 3 Warriors that are supposed to help Settler 3 find a city and send that one Warrior away? That Warrior would help to 100% fog-bust the western area. Right now, we're looking at about 92% coverage (that's just a rough number--I didn't actually count up the squares) if we use 2 Warriors. The risk is that if one Warrior dies, we'll be faced with "the Wild Wild West" being filled with "Varmints" and other terrors.

If you don't want to do so, then we should discuss if we should prioritize a 6th Warrior from City 2 (Silverado) in order to take on this behaviour or if you are willing to take the risk that our empire might fall to pieces if a Barb Archer spawns and kills one of our two western Fog Busters. I'm leaning more towards this second option of building a 6th Warrior from City 2, even if it means delaying building another Worker from City 2, as, per what BLubmuz said, many Worker turns' worth of work can be lost if even 1 Barb breaks through the line and starts pillaging.

5. We're somewhat discussing possible city locations, but I think that group consensus is that we want Settler 3 to go east and will probably want Settler 4 to do the same. Until we've scouted out more land, there's not much point in 100% deciding where the cities should go. At this point, it's just more of a matter of brainstorming POSSIBLE locations for cities that haven't been mentioned already, so that we can get our brain cells (all 2 of them, apparently, in some cases) thinking about all of the different city layout possibilities.
 
T60 – Learn Monotheism. Set research to Bronze Working (temporary). Warrior 3 completed in Delhi. Set build to settler 3 (temporary). Worker 1 starts mine on plains hill.
Please also set Research back to 0% on this turn, to make it easier for the next player not to forget to use Binary Research.

Espionage – I noticed that we have as many points against Zara as he has against us (+/- 4)...
Even if he's the only one that we'll meet for a while, it is good that we have an Espionage Weight set for him, so that we won't worry about accidentally assigning Espionage Points to the other AI once we meet them later in the game.
 
Here are the things that I can think of. There might be more.

1. Where to put the Silverado ("Silver City") City. We have two choices (where Irgy marked it and the spot that picks up Whale, but really sucks as a long-term location, since there is no Food there).

As far as I understand, everyone's in favour of 'my' spot, the whale spot is bad, and we can pick up the whale with the other two silvers later if we need to.

3. What other Wonders to go for. We might or might not want to settle Stone or Marble in order to help build them, so it would help if we knew what Wonders people wanted to target.

Well, what wonders help our strategy? The great library might help us get towards education and liberalism, although we may miss the boat on that in terms of getting literature early enough anyway. The pyramids would help a lot, but I'm not convinced we could spare the production at the right time (even with stone). I'd see it as one to pick up if it goes late.

Ankor Wat is very good with a lot of religeons to work priests, but we may not want great prophets by the time we can build it.

There's not much else I can think of offhand that I'd want to build with stone or marble before we're likely to have settled everywhere anyway. National wonders maybe, like Maoi (although the southern site isn't looking as good as it did for that with all that tundra instead of water), and of course oxford, national epic and heroic epic.

4. Should we use one of our 3 Warriors that are supposed to help Settler 3 find a city and send that one Warrior away? That Warrior would help to 100% fog-bust the western area. Right now, we're looking at about 92% coverage (that's just a rough number--I didn't actually count up the squares) if we use 2 Warriors. The risk is that if one Warrior dies, we'll be faced with "the Wild Wild West" being filled with "Varmints" and other terrors.

If you don't want to do so, then we should discuss if we should prioritize a 6th Warrior from City 2 (Silverado) in order to take on this behaviour or if you are willing to take the risk that our empire might fall to pieces if a Barb Archer spawns and kills one of our two western Fog Busters. I'm leaning more towards this second option of building a 6th Warrior from City 2, even if it means delaying building another Worker from City 2, as, per what BLubmuz said, many Worker turns' worth of work can be lost if even 1 Barb breaks through the line and starts pillaging.

As long as there's warriors coming from somewhere I don't mind where it is. I'd like to send two warriors east, with the possibility of of sending one back depending on what we find.

I definately think we should spawnbust the western area completely as soon as we can reasonably afford to. Spawn busting with warriors only works if you do it completely, if one barb can spawn then that one barb can kill your warrior and then it all falls to bits. Although at least the bear, while it lives, is spawn-busting for us, so we don't need to go out of our way to hunt it down.

I would imagine something like 3 east, 4 west, 5 east. We only need number 6 as one to camp in Dehli when we benefit from increasing our happiness cap there.

5. We're somewhat discussing possible city locations, but I think that group consensus is that we want Settler 3 to go east and will probably want Settler 4 to do the same. Until we've scouted out more land, there's not much point in 100% deciding where the cities should go. At this point, it's just more of a matter of brainstorming POSSIBLE locations for cities that haven't been mentioned already, so that we can get our brain cells (all 2 of them, apparently, in some cases) thinking about all of the different city layout possibilities.

I might mark out how I would place the western cities in one of the test games when I get time. I agree with settler3 and probably settler4 east.


Espionage – I noticed that we have as many points against Zara as he has against us (+/- 4)...
I'm almost certain that if Zara had met someone else, they would have received at least one espionage point from him. So it's looking like just the two of us, and probably for a while to come. We need to be friends with Zara to trade for the economy techs we're missing in exchange for all these religeous techs we're chasing. Without letting him beat us to something of course. Although Zara beating us to a religeon is strictly better than anyone else beating us.
 
Here are the things that I can think of. There might be more.

1. Where to put the Silverado ("Silver City") City. We have two choices (where Irgy marked it and the spot that picks up Whale, but really sucks as a long-term location, since there is no Food there).

Where Irgy marked it.

2. We were discussing whether to build 2 Warriors in City 1 (Delhi) prior to building Settler 3, but I think that the only person who wanted to do so, BLubmuz, has seen that it would be a very inefficient choice to do so. We'd rather get Settler 3 out about 5 turns faster, while still having as many as 3 Warriors built before Settler 3 comes out (thanks to Silverado/Silver City building 2 Warriors and the capitol building 1 Warrior before Settler 3 is built). So, there's probably no further discussion required there--we're going for Warrior 3 -> Settler 3 in Delhi.

I agree. Warrior 3 -> Settler 3 makes much more sense.

3. What other Wonders to go for. We might or might not want to settle Stone or Marble in order to help build them, so it would help if we knew what Wonders people wanted to target.

Well, it really depends on our strategy. Two wonders come in mind:
1) The Parthanon - we are philosophical so we might as well leverage that.
2) The Pyramids - if we are going to use specialist exensively then it will be useful. AND it helps us get a GE.

That is all that come to mind now. The others seem less useful to our strategy.

4. Should we use one of our 3 Warriors that are supposed to help Settler 3 find a city and send that one Warrior away? That Warrior would help to 100% fog-bust the western area. Right now, we're looking at about 92% coverage (that's just a rough number--I didn't actually count up the squares) if we use 2 Warriors. The risk is that if one Warrior dies, we'll be faced with "the Wild Wild West" being filled with "Varmints" and other terrors.



If you don't want to do so, then we should discuss if we should prioritize a 6th Warrior from City 2 (Silverado) in order to take on this behaviour or if you are willing to take the risk that our empire might fall to pieces if a Barb Archer spawns and kills one of our two western Fog Busters. I'm leaning more towards this second option of building a 6th Warrior from City 2, even if it means delaying building another Worker from City 2, as, per what BLubmuz said, many Worker turns' worth of work can be lost if even 1 Barb breaks through the line and starts pillaging.

I think we should go with 100% coverage. Once you get a barb overran it is hard to get rid off.

Back to wonders - another way to get barb protection is great wall, which is extremely cheap with stone. Still, doesn't seem a good idea to me, but I want atleast mention it so that the option will not be missed.

5. We're somewhat discussing possible city locations, but I think that group consensus is that we want Settler 3 to go east and will probably want Settler 4 to do the same. Until we've scouted out more land, there's not much point in 100% deciding where the cities should go. At this point, it's just more of a matter of brainstorming POSSIBLE locations for cities that haven't been mentioned already, so that we can get our brain cells (all 2 of them, apparently, in some cases) thinking about all of the different city layout possibilities.

Will keep this in mind.
 
I don't think the parthenon does go all that well with being philosophical. If you plan to play a specialist-heavy economy because you're philosophical, then that might make the parthenon more useful, but on its own it's less useful for a philosophical civ. Instead of increasing your gpp rate by 50% for most civs, it effectively only increases it by 25% for philosophical - because it just changes it to x2.5 from x2.
 
I don't think the parthenon does go all that well with being philosophical. If you plan to play a specialist-heavy economy because you're philosophical, then that might make the parthenon more useful, but on its own it's less useful for a philosophical civ. Instead of increasing your gpp rate by 50% for most civs, it effectively only increases it by 25% for philosophical - because it just changes it to x2.5 from x2.
Correct. It's the last wonder i want. Unless we go for culture. Its 10cpt and the 2 GA points can be useful, but only in a Legendary city.
 
I don't think the parthenon does go all that well with being philosophical. If you plan to play a specialist-heavy economy because you're philosophical, then that might make the parthenon more useful, but on its own it's less useful for a philosophical civ. Instead of increasing your gpp rate by 50% for most civs, it effectively only increases it by 25% for philosophical - because it just changes it to x2.5 from x2.

Your numbers are, of course, very true. This is always true, that if you have an advantage in something then getting additional advantage is always harder (law of diminishing returns). But you cannot ignore that it still gives you a bigger advantage in your strong point, which is exactly the point you want to work with.

Another way to look at it is by looking at the raw numbers, number of GP-points per turn (that is instead of looking at GP per turn, which gets only a 25% percent increase). In the "GP-points per turn" you still gain the +50%. Now assuming you are going to play on your Philo advantage and use specialist a little more than usual, that 50% will give you more.

Why should you look at GP-points per turn? Because basically a GP-point has no worth on its own. You convert it to gold or hammers or beakers. There is some convert rate that depends on what you do with the GP and when you build them (the sooner you build the GP the better the rate is). So... now we understand that 50% increase in GP-points is at least a 50% increase the GP yield, and even more (because you build them earlier).

OK, maybe this all makes non-sense, as I never did any game to verify it. Actually, I didn't think about these arguments till now... I am sure that Dhoom will have some good insights about this issue.
 
Another way to look at it (sorry for spamming, I do not do it a lot).

Suppose, just for the sake of argument, that there was a trait that makes every specialist get +3 beakers of science. You will be crazy not to use SE because you want to use your advantage. Now, will building the Pyramids make sense? On one hand you are getting only +3 more beakers which is a 50% instead of 100% increase. But you will still do it - because you have a lot of specialists and you want those extra beakers.

My argument is that Philo is very much like that theoretical trait. At the end the +3 GP-points a specialist build are work +X beakers (we don't know the X). Maybe this is not enough to go all the way for a SE (I myself was never able to make it work) but it doesn't mean we don't have to increase the raw GP output of our specialists because we *should* use them more than usual.
 
I must admit that i never went in deep with the Parthenon coupled with a Philo Leader.
The same reasoning can apply for the Colossus for a Financial Leader.

There's surely one point in its favor, as for all the WWs: useful, less useful, useless, we have them, not our opponents.
Provided we have hammers to invest in Wonders.

A WW surely useful is (are?) the Pyramids: Representation early not only gives +3 :science: for specialist, but solves any (or almost) happiness problem.

So, if you ask me how do we use Stone, i say "for the Pyramids, WTH"

edit:
if anyone is interested, our Strategist, aka Dhoomstriker, took another 1st cultural award in WotM28. Faster than the Diplo, ways faster.

I used the edit to avoid being read with the "2 rows trick"
 
I must admit that i never went in deep with the Parthenon coupled with a Philo Leader.
The same reasoning can apply for the Colossus for a Financial Leader.

There's surely one point in its favor, as for all the WWs: useful, less useful, useless, we have them, not our opponents.
Provided we have hammers to invest in Wonders.

A WW surely useful is (are?) the Pyramids: Representation early not only gives +3 :science: for specialist, but solves any (or almost) happiness problem.

So, if you ask me how do we use Stone, i say "for the Pyramids, WTH"

Maybe true, but only because of happiness!

Lets put the happiness on the side for the moment.
Pyra gives you +3 beakers, and Parth gives you +1.5 GP-points.
Now, a GS costs you at the start 200 GP-points (is that right?) but then you can light-bulb it as much as 1000 beakers. Even CoL is around 500. Now the math is simple - the 1.5 GP-point is worth more than 3 beaker. At least 3.75 beakers (lightbulb 500 beakers) or even 7.5 beakers (lightbulb 1000 beakers).

If you build an Academy or settle the GP you will get even more.

Summary: if you want to maximize specialist usage go for Parthenon. It gives you better bargain than Pyramids, and I think it is cheaper. That said, Pyra have other pros: happiness solving (not a problem with many religions + cheap temples), and an early GE.
 
Also, the costs of GP grows, if I remember correctly, +50 for every GP. This is a constant increase so in % it becomes smaller and smaller. Technology grows with a much higher rate. CoL is around 500 while the basics are around 100. This means that the +3:science: have higher decay in return than the +1.5:gp:

The more I think about it the +1.5:gp: is a better bargain than the +3:science:.

EDIT:

The only caveat to this brilliant :lol: analysis is that the +3 :science: are subject to bonuses like library, university, etc...
But the their decay is faster... so really hard to tell what wins. The math is too complicated to figure out.
BUT, notice that the pathenon only gives you +1.5 :gp: and not +3 :gp:. Obviously the game designers at Firaxis thought that +3 :gp: will be way too much, so at +1.5 :gp: it is probably close to be balanced. They also masked it by saying +50% and not +1.5 :gp: which is, by far, a more accurate description.

MORE EDIT:

OK, it is not really more accurate. For wonders and for the engineer specialist it is +1 :gp:.
But still, saying +50% GP rate really masks the true value of this WW.

MORE MORE EDIT:

Another caveat is that the GP-points are useful only if you get the GP from them, while beakers are useful always.
So, at some point we may have specialists that work in cities that will never produce a GP and the :gp: will be lost.
The conclusion is simple: if you go for a SE then Pyrm might seem better are you are spreading the spiecalists all over.
If you do only for selective GP breading the the Parthenon seems to be a better deal.

Anyone agrees/disagrees?
 
The Pyramids
Suppose, just for the sake of argument, that there was a trait that makes every specialist get +3 beakers of science. You will be crazy not to use SE because you want to use your advantage. Now, will building the Pyramids make sense? On one hand you are getting only +3 more beakers which is a 50% instead of 100% increase. But you will still do it - because you have a lot of specialists and you want those extra beakers.

My argument is that Philo is very much like that theoretical trait. At the end the +3 GP-points a specialist build are work +X beakers (we don't know the X). Maybe this is not enough to go all the way for a SE (I myself was never able to make it work) but it doesn't mean we don't have to increase the raw GP output of our specialists because we *should* use them more than usual.
Well, it is clear that in our game, we'll want a lot of Great People. We'll want them because we need 4 extras at the end. We'll also want them because they are useful to have.

Great People can come from Wonders or from Specialists, as well as a combination of both.

In an Emperor-level Diplo game, we won't build a lot of Wonders, so most of our Great People Points (GPP) will come from Specialists. So, it is true that a Wonder like The Pyramids will create a good synergy. The fact that we have no Anarchy also makes for a good Synergy with The Pyramids, as we can switch to Police State + Theocracy for a short time to build up an army quickly and with better base experience.


In an Emperor-level Cultural game, we'll target Wonders more aggressively, so there will be less GPP points coming from Specialists. That said, there should at least be one city with 6+ Artist Specialists, if we can manage to get such a city. Also, for this particular game, we'll likely need Astronomy to reach a Barb-infested Fur area. Let me tell you that in a Cultural game, the difference between successful late-game Research and unsuccessful late-game Research is almost purely based on whether you have Representation. Your economy buildings will not be in place due to a focus on building Cathedrals, so your only real hope to get Science is through Representation. The Tech that unlocks the Representation Civic costs a lot, but we could target delaying a Cultural game just to research it. Or, we could target The Pyramids.


It is clear that a Diplo or Cultural game would greatly benefit from The Pyramids. Building it in our capitol would hopefully eventually net us a Great Engineer, as well as an additional Great Prophet over time.


In order be able to build The Pyramids, we have to have a few things working in our favour:
1. Organized Religion helps. Checkmark.
2. Teching to The Wheel prior to Alphabet, probably after Meditation, would be required. We'd need a Road route to the Stone. Doing so would require team agreement.
3. Lots of trees to chop. Our capitol has a TON of them and we really should chop some soon, so that there is a chance for some to regrow (if Forests are packed too tightly, then there will be no space for any of them to regrow). Checkmark.
4. Teching to Masonry early helps. We've already done that. Checkmark.
5. We'll need a city by the Stone. It would help if we can get that city in place in order to get Lightbulbed Christianity in it, so that we don't have to settle immediately next to the Stone in order to get that Resource within our borders in time. We'll probably have to earmark Settler 4 for this location. We'd need team consensus in order to do so. On the good side, that would set up a "complete" cultural blocking border for Zara, who can otherwise sneak a city in past our northern cultural borders if he really likes the land to the west. On the possible bad side, it might or might not mean giving up another city closer to Zara. We'd still be settling City 3 towards Zara, though, while City 4 would still be blocking him (while a Marble city would not be oriented towards blocking him).
6. Hope that no Industrious AI was given Stone to begin with.


Not-so-short Summary
The team would have to agree to build City 4 by the Stone.

We would have to agree to use some of our capitol's Forests for chopping out The Pyramids (the Forests have to do something, so I don't think that this point will be a sticking point--we'll be chopping no matter WHAT we build--it will just be that we have to decide what it is we will be building).

The team would have to agree to research: Writing -> Meditation -> The Wheel -> then probably Alphabet next

Note that until we get Zara up to Friendly relations, learning The Alphabet won't get us ANY tech trades, anyway, so delaying Alphabet a bit further for a useful tech can be very easily justified, as we would be very unlikely to trade with him by getting Alphabet as early as just before researching The Wheel.

Zara is BIG on shared religion, so the sooner that he will adopt one of our religions, the better off we'll be in terms of being able to get on Friendly terms with him. He won't attack us at Friendly relations, but he might (10% chance, if he thinks that he's powerful enough and also passes one of the "declare war" random "dice roll" checks) if he's only Pleased with us.


Surely, with Stone so close, some of the other teams will get The Pyramids. It will be a VERY useful Science-based Wonder. With our religious-based strategy, I think that we'll be able to get the Stone within our cultural borders with a potentially better longer-term city than other teams will have. The high cost is greatly offset by Stone + Organized Religion + a huge Forest. The hardest part will be building City 4 and enough Workers, while keeping our tech rate high enough until we have researched The Wheel.

By pre-chopping the Forests with Fast Workers, we don't have to put stupid Roads on the Forests (which ARE stupid because those Roads prevent most Forest-regrowth). So, if we are close to the time to chop out The Pyramids and someone else builds it, we'll have pre-chopped Forests available for another task.
 
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