SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[BLubmuz]

Well, it seems that you aren't convinced 100%, due to your test game, but as I said, it's really hard to prove that the theory works--one test game wouldn't have been enough to do so. Anyway, the good part is that we've got a test that tells us the best way to go and you've agreed to follow that method.

the test game was Mitch's test for my PPP. I think that eveything working there can work in the real game, but i just follow the stream. Less effort

I do look at each city and each of the F4 screens (Glance, Resouces, and Techs) on each turn, so that's at least one more player who will do so.

I'm not sure what's on the F10 screen... Demographics? Is there anything on the F10 screen that we should be writing down from turn to turn?

I often open up the Event Log, as sometimes the game events don't appear clearly on the screen. For example, before whipping a Wonder, you should always check the Event Log in order to make sure that it wasn't already built by someone else, meaning that you would have just whipped away the population just to achieve a very poor Food -> Gold conversion ratio.

Yes, it happens that we can miss something. Also, goin' on F9 - top cities/wonders can help
F10 open the Capital screen, so it's the most important city to start. Then with the arrows i cycle every city, 'til back in Capital.

I think tha UT does the same for sure. After some debate during SG9, he jumped on my side for MM. So we're 3 at least, but i'm sure Mitch do the same.
I hope that Irgy and Havr will follow our bright model.

 

[Mitchum]

I think tha UT does the same for sure. After some debate during SG9, he jumped on my side for MM. So we're 3 at least, but i'm sure Mitch do the same.
I hope that Irgy and Havr will follow our bright model.

In my normal games, early on when there are few cities, I do not check every city every turn, but I pay attention to my workers. If a worker completes an improvement, I move a citizen to it ASAP if it makes sense (i.e. the turn before the worker is ready for his next task). I also watch the autolog messages for news that a city grew or is about to grow. On the turn it grows, I check that city to ensure the citizen was put on the appropriate square. In the case of my last turn set, I had a very accurate PPP, so I had it printed out and checked off each turn as it came to ensure that I performed the correct MM actions.

With that said, in a SGOTM game, a turn set of 15 turns only lasts a short time. So, it makes sense to check these screens and every city each turn. It's a small price to pay to avoid making a mistake.

 

[BLubmuz]

My PPP until turn 75, build 02:

turn 60 situation: 2 cities (s.3/s.1), 1 FWorker, 2 warriors (both fogbusting W)

t61: Judaism founded in Silverado, Dehli size 4.
started BW, research to 0
t62: 21 in the bank, BW will arrive in 10 (-2g/t) note: this won't change 'til the end of my TS
t63: both warriors completed (3+4), both heading E Silverado builds another, Dehli settler in 12
the exp. borders of Silverado help to fogbust S of the pig's lake
t65: the mine is completed, moved citizen there - settler 1 turn early, +1C
the warrior from Dehli (3) goes NE, the one from S. (4) straight E walkin' S of Dehli. Still inside our borders.
t66: worker re-start farming
t69: warrior (5) from Silverado, heads E, following his mate, at least inside our borders
t71: farm completed, move citizen on the farm
t72: BW in, start PH, research to 0
t73: our worker start chop/mine a riverside Forested GL Hill (5+6 turns) in Dehli's BFC - PH in 5.
t74: this has to be decided: in my test i started a settler in Dehli and another warrior (6) in Silverado. My plan is to bring this one in Dehli and build another in Silverado for itself.
It's what i think it's better, but we need more scouting and to discuss this.
t75: cruising, finished TS.

We'll have: Dehli size4, 1 settler heading E, 2 warriors fogbusting W, 1 just built, 2 scouting E, 1 scouting NE (6 total).
We demonstarted that it's not worth grow to 5 to build the settler, so i don't.

BTW i opened the save and verified the hammer overflow thing. OK, you're right.
Another new thing learned, along with the fogbusting tricks.

 

[Mitchum]

t62: 21 in the bank, BW will arrive in 10 (-2g/t) note: this won't change 'til the end of my TS

You have this clarified below, but you'll actually have to drop the science slider to 0% after BW is learned.

t73: our worker start chop/mine a riverside Forested GL Hill (5+6 turns) in Dehli's BFC - PH in 5.
t74: this has to be decided: in my test i started a settler in Dehli and another warrior (6) in Silverado. My plan is to bring this one in Dehli and build another in Silverado for itself.
It's what i think it's better, but we need more scouting and to discuss this.

I thought this was decided already. Settler 4 in Delhi and warrior 6 in Silverado. Unless (no one talked about this after I metioned it) we want to build an axeman rather than a warrior to handle barb archers or a worker to help chop the Oracle. I guess a lot will depend on what land we are able to find to the east and north.

Maybe it makes more sense to stop one turn earlier on T74 so that we can decide... It's a perfect time to stop as we'll know BW and where the copper is. We'll also have to decide what to build in each of our cities.

 

[BLubmuz]

You have this clarified below, but you'll actually have to drop the science slider to 0% after BW is learned.

I posted it!

I thought this was decided already. Settler 4 in Delhi and warrior 6 in Silverado. Unless (no one talked about this after I metioned it) we want to build an axeman rather than a warrior to handle barb archers or a worker to help chop the Oracle. I guess a lot will depend on what land we are able to find to the east and north.

Maybe it makes more sense to stop one turn earlier on T74 so that we can decide... It's a perfect time to stop as we'll know BW and where the copper is. We'll also have to decide what to build in each of our cities.

Wait!
There's a hole.
I went ahead with the test until turn 96 (1600 BC). Why 96? because it's the turn we can complete the Oracle. Writing can be in by turn 90 or 91, depends where we settle city #3.
But at this point there's a constraint in building the Oracle, even if i revolted to OR and Hindu the turn i started it. We have only 1 worker for chops and after BW he can:
- chop the hill forest planned on my PPP (5t)
- mine it (6t)
- chop the closest forest (plains) (5t)
- start chop another, but at this point the chop will go elsewhere. A temple or a worker.

BTW, our northern most warrior did not avoid the spawning of a barb city 2W+1S of marble. We need to find a way to avoid this.

We can probably save the turns Dehli spent in build the warrior. No need to do this. We can start the settler in turn 74, chop/mine the hill, or elsewhere if we have copper in BFC and not mined. Even if a riverside hill chopped/mined can be somewhere equivalent to a copper mine. All the hills are forested but the PH, so if we have copper it is there, on the GL W or where we farmed. The only tiles not forested.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Wait!
There's a hole.
I went ahead with the test until turn 96 (1600 BC). Why 96? because it's the turn we can complete the Oracle. Writing can be in by turn 90 or 91, depends where we settle city #3.
But at this point there's a constraint in building the Oracle, even if i revolted to OR and Hindu the turn i started it. We have only 1 worker for chops and after BW he can:
- chop the hill forest planned on my PPP (5t)
- mine it (6t)
- chop the closest forest (plains) (5t)
- start chop another, but at this point the chop will go elsewhere. A temple or a worker.

I think that we'll need a couple of more test path attempts before you play your turnset, then.

Originally, no one was doing what you are suggesting: mining any Hills square before The Oracle is in. Since we have such a TIGHT time window between Bronze Working and Writing, everyone was picking their flatland Forests and then chopping those ones.

I'd suggest that you forget about mining things right now, as building a Mine is a long-term thing, but we don't have much time to work with. Plan out which Forests you will pre-chop and make them all "flatland Forests." Plan a path that will let you come back to finish off the chopping later.

Perhaps after Settler 3, we should focus on chopping out a Worker, so that we have 2 Workers to chop The Oracle.

Definitely, some testing of multiple paths in order to compare them to each other should be done before the next turnset proceeds.

BTW, our northern most warrior did not avoid the spawning of a barb city 2W+1S of marble. We need to find a way to avoid this.

There is only one way to completely avoid it, and that's to move Warrior 1 one square west. In order to do THAT, we need a 3rd Warrior fog-busting for us:

Here's a link to my fog-busting map, for your viewing convenience:
Fog Busting Map


I'm really tempted to put our next city to the NORTH, so that we can use one of our "city defending fog-busters" to sit on the square 1NW of the Stone. Sitting on that Grassland square should let us push both western Warriors out 1 square west each.


With another fog-busting scout to the north and 2 squares east of the capitol, we'll have the immediate area relatively fog-busted. Then, it might make sense to make city 3 the Stone city.


As much as we want to settle towards Zara, doing so might not be possible if it also means fog-busting the west with the same Warrior Vanguard (advanced-positioned army) serving dual roles.

We can probably save the turns Dehli spent in build the warrior. No need to do this.

I guess I need to go and read your 2nd PPP, which I haven't read yet, as I'm not sure why we're even discussing building another Warrior in the capitol. I thought that the last Warrior we'd build in the capitol for a while would be the one that helped us to grow to Size 4, and that from then on, the capitol would be on Settler/Worker/The Oracle production only.

Even if a riverside hill chopped/mined can be somewhere equivalent to a copper mine.

While it will indeed be helpful, it will only give us 1 more Hammer than a 1F + 2H square will. In the short term, more turns spent on Forest-chopping will likely be required in order to win us The Oracle.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

turn 60 situation: 2 cities (s.3/s.1)

Please educate me. What does the "(s.3/s.1)" text mean?
Oh wait, I finally figured it out: Size
Maybe let's try to avoid abbreviations unless they are defined somewhere first, and possibly avoid them at all. A couple of seconds of typing can save minutes of frustrated head-scratching.

t63: both warriors completed (3+4), both heading E...

the warrior from Dehli (3) goes NE, the one from S. (4) straight E walkin' S of Dehli. Still inside our borders...

t69: warrior (5) from Silverado, heads E, following his mate, at least inside our borders

Do you think that it would be possible for you to upload a map of your planned units' routes? If that's too much to ask (I had to split the big screenshots up into two screenshots, due to size restrictions), then perhaps a textual move-by-move plan for the units, at least as far as you can possible write based on our current visibility.

I am a bit concerned about us encountering human Barbs immediately. I am also concerned about where you plan to scout for a city and what you plan to do if you can't find a good spot immediately. For example, do you plan to try and incorporate that Plains Cow in a city? Do you plan to scout along the southern coast (the one that is more to the east of our capitol)? Do you plan to just stick to the Forests and spot what you can see?

Do you have any intentions of "creeping" with our units, so that if a Barb unit walks up to them, they'll get a mini-Fortification bonus in their Forest, and will also have a chance to passively spawn-bust (using the 5x5 diametre square) for a couple of turns before moving the next turn?

t73: our worker start chop/mine a riverside Forested GL Hill (5+6 turns) in Dehli's BFC - PH in 5.

I think that you will find that pre-chopping flatland Forests will be the way to get The Oracle. After that, with 2 Workers roaming about (1 probably chopped while working on Priesthood), we'll eventually be able to get to chopping and mining those Riverside Hills squares, but only once The Oracle is secured. Cool?

Preferably, you'll start pre-chopping or chopping immediately after completing the Grassland River irrigation, since you'll just have learned Bronze Working. Therefore, I'd recommend that your next Worker 1 movement after irrigating the Grassland River square would be to move 1N and start chopping there. Whether we chop into the Settler, switch to a Worker for a turn and chop into that, or whether we just pre-chop it, will depend upon what the test games say--the test games that run up until The Oracle is complete.

t75: cruising, finished TS.

I would suggest that for each Worker turn spent on chopping, we cancel the Worker's chopping. All it takes is one misconfigured BUFFY set up and the chop could come out at the wrong time. It's not hard to end a Worker's current action. Number him with the Ctrl key. For Worker 1, select him, then press Ctrl + 1. Then, after you issue the "chop Forest" command, press the "1" key to select that Worker 1 again and then press the backspace key in order to cancel his current Worker action. Yes, it's a bit more work, but worth it when so many hands are "in the pie" of the saved game, when each chop going into the right build means so much at this stage of the game.

We'll have: Dehli size4, 1 settler heading E, 2 warriors fogbusting W, 1 just built, 2 scouting E, 1 scouting NE (6 total).
We demonstarted that it's not worth grow to 5 to build the settler, so i don't.

Thanks for the summary of what units we'll have and thank you for clarifying that growing to Size 5 is not a priority.

BTW i opened the save and verified the hammer overflow thing. OK, you're right.

Maybe, next time you'll take my word for it the first time. Especially since I ran a test game to back up my statement when I said it.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Mitchum,

Can you confirm the following for us, please?

If a Barb unit spawns, does it stay in place for its first turn or does it move on the turn that it spawns? My guess is that it does not move on the first turn that it appears, but knowing can help me to plan out some possible moves to help us with fog-busting.

 

[Mitchum]

I'm really tempted to put our next city to the NORTH, so that we can use one of our "city defending fog-busters" to sit on the square 1NW of the Stone. Sitting on that Grassland square should let us push both western Warriors out 1 square west each.

When doing this, the the black square with the white circle will still be un-covered. Also, moving the Warrior 3 (Warrior 2 now?) 1 square west will un-cover the squares 2N and 3N of the cows. I'd be tempted to leave Warrior 3 where he is, which would only leave the tile way to the west and the white circle un-covered.

With another fog-busting scout to the north and 2 squares east of the capitol, we'll have the immediate area relatively fog-busted. Then, it might make sense to make city 3 the Stone city.

I'm not sure what "to the north and 2 squares east of the capitol" means. I like settling Stone thrid, but we can't commit to this until we see what is to the east and what is to the north of the stone. Let's not spend too much time on debating this until we know more.

I'm not sure why we're even discussing building another Warrior in the capitol.

I brought this up. Until we see the barb situation and the lay of the land to the north and east, we won't know what we'll need. It's very possible that a barb archer will eat one of our warriors for lunch. This is why I suggested that BLubmuz stop at T74. I believe this is the turn that both settler 3 and warrior 5 are completed. Then, we can start talking about what to build next (ideally settler or worker) and where to settle.

 

[Mitchum]

I think that you will find that pre-chopping flatland Forests will be the way to get The Oracle. After that, with 2 Workers roaming about (1 probably chopped while working on Priesthood), we'll eventually be able to get to chopping and mining those Riverside Hills squares, but only once The Oracle is secured. Cool?

Preferably, you'll start pre-chopping or chopping immediately after completing the Grassland River irrigation, since you'll just have learned Bronze Working. Therefore, I'd recommend that your next Worker 1 movement after irrigating the Grassland River square would be to move 1N and start chopping there.

In light of Dhoomstriker's education on forest re-growth, it would be good to plot out which tiles you intend to chop/pre-chop. If you don't complete a chop in your turnset, please put a "Pre-Chopped" sign on the tile so that the rest of us remember what happened during your turnset.

Maybe, next time you'll take my word for it the first time. Especially since I ran a test game to back up my statement when I said it.

I don't blame him for testing it and you shouldn't either. Seeing is believing, Doubting Thomas!! I did the same for the spacebar=fortification tip you gave.

 

[Mitchum]

Mitchum,

Can you confirm the following for us, please?

If a Barb unit spawns, does it stay in place for its first turn or does it move on the turn that it spawns? My guess is that it does not move on the first turn that it appears, but knowing can help me to plan out some possible moves to help us with fog-busting.

Every time a barb spawned in my test, it was on an un-fogged tile when I opened the WB save. It's possible that the barb actually spawned in one un-fogged tile and then moved to another un-fogged tile. However, I find that unlikely. I would assume that if the barb could move the turn it spawns, at least once the barb would have spawned in an un-fogged tile and then moved to a fogged tile that turn.

In my test with our actual test game, you can see that the barb archer is sitting right on the "dead a" tile. Now it's possible that he spawned on the "Always dead" tile and moved to the "dead a" tile the turn he spawned. But Havr would tell you that there was only a 1/8 chance that that would have happened as there were 7 other likely squares he could have gone to instead.

I can't conclusively prove this with the tests I've run so far, so hang on for a minute....


Conclusive proof (that's what you wanted right?). Barbs spawn in un-fogged tiles and do NOT move that same turn. Here we see our poor barb, all by himself on the only un-fogged tile on the island. If barbs could move the turn they spawn, this warrior would be in one of the 3 tiles SW, S or SE of the tile he's currently on.

 

[unclethrill]

Without internet for a couple days so I'm still trying to get caught up on posts.

 

[BLubmuz]

I think we have to rethink our build plans.
While it's true that building a warrior in Dehli and let this grow 5 doesn't speed the settler, it's true that a warrior is needed.
So, i propose this: Dehli will build 2 warriors (the one already in queue and another one).
The first can go on the blue spot and when he arrives, the other 2 fogbusters will move 1W (white and red spots). The second will go NE as planned.
The worker can start chop after completed the farm, since it will be the same turn we learn BW.
if he chops: 1S, 1E, 1W of Dehli he won't lose any movement and probably the settler can be out around the same turn.
I can't see where we can squeeze a worker without delaying the settler(s) too much.

Bear in mind that all this rush for settlers to block Zara can be a loss, but we can know that only when the warrior from Silverado will exit our borders.

If we agree on principle, i can repeat the test until the Oracle in this way.
Better, i'll do this on my test and post a report.

 

[unclethrill]

Unfortunately, the Lazy Programmer Theory won the day.

As a Software Engineer, I resemble that remark

 

[Irgy]

As a Software Engineer, I resemble that remark

What do you mean? Laziness is one of the three most important qualities in a programmer.

And anyway, imagine what the world would be like if we went out of our way to do things in perverse, over-complicated ways for no discernable reason. The only time we do that is when we over-engineer something, and that just means doing it better than you needed to.

 

[unclethrill]

Well, it seems that you aren't convinced 100%, due to your test game, but as I said, it's really hard to prove that the theory works--one test game wouldn't have been enough to do so. Anyway, the good part is that we've got a test that tells us the best way to go and you've agreed to follow that method.

In testing scenarios like this, proving that it is broken is as simple seeing it fail but proving it works is really impossible. The best we could do is run the tests many times and then declare it statistically improbable.

 

[Irgy]

I think we have to rethink our build plans.
While it's true that building a warrior in Dehli and let this grow 5 doesn't speed the settler, it's true that a warrior is needed.
So, i propose this: Dehli will build 2 warriors (the one already in queue and another one).

If it doesn't slow the settler down much then it's probably a good idea.

The first can go on the blue spot and when he arrives, the other 2 fogbusters will move 1W (white and red spots). The second will go NE as planned.

It depends a little on the timing, but I'd have thought it was better to move the first one NE. Don't forget barbs can spawn to the east as well, Zara won't fogbust all of it for us I'm sure - especially with one of his early scouts dead.

As far as the blue region goes, it looks good for covering the missing tiles to the west, but it feels like we're covering a few tiles to the west and leaving a great big region to the north completely unprotected.

I can't see where we can squeeze a worker without delaying the settler(s) too much.

It is a concern that we're going to have 3 cities and one worker, it's not exactly the 1.5x3=4.5 that people recommend. Could someone remind me what the rush is on the third city again? I'm all for blocking Zara, but without knowing the lay of the land at all it seems a bit of a guess whether we need to rush it or not.

 

[BLubmuz]

It is a concern that we're going to have 3 cities and one worker, it's not exactly the 1.5x3=4.5 that people recommend. Could someone remind me what the rush is on the third city again? I'm all for blocking Zara, but without knowing the lay of the land at all it seems a bit of a guess whether we need to rush it or not.

This can affect the 4th settler, not the 3rd. If we see nothing valuable straight E of Dehli, our settler will move NE. But we'll know this after turn 73 at best.

You're damn right about workers. But we don't even know the Wheel.
Not a great situation. We must recover this.

In any case, i think it's better i stop my TS once we know if or where we have copper.

There's another point: keeping one more fogbuster costs us another gpt, further delaying our research.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, test done.
First, i made a mistake in that fogbusting map, the warrior needs to be 1SW of the stone, not 1W as i indicated.

Second, i settled 2 more cities:
city#3 5 W of Dehli
city#4 1NW of the cows NE of Dehli. Horrible spot, but just to have an idea.

Confucianism was founded on city #4. WTH?

research is suffering from all those cities and units, but i could finish writing and Oracle in the same turn, IBT 94/95, officially (F9) 1650 BC.

Stretched, lot of MM. OR is also expensive.
I needed 4 chops for the settler and the Oracle. I'm even thinking if can be more efficient whip the settler, provided Slavery will cost 1 more gpt.

 

[Mitchum]

OK, test done.
First, i made a mistake in that fogbusting map, the warrior needs to be 1SW of the stone, not 1W as i indicated.

Second, i settled 2 more cities:
city#3 5 W of Dehli
city#4 1NW of the cows NE of Dehli. Horrible spot, but just to have an idea.

Confucianism was founded on city #4. WTH?

research is suffering from all those cities and units, but i could finish writing and Oracle in the same turn, IBT 94/95, officially (F9) 1650 BC.

Stretched, lot of MM. OR is also expensive.
I needed 4 chops for the settler and the Oracle. I'm even thinking if can be more efficient whip the settler, provided Slavery will cost 1 more gpt.

Do we have the luxury of 100% fog busting the west right now? Or can it wait for a few turns. As it stands, with two fog busters, we only have 4 unfogged tiles (as soon as Silverado's border expands). 3 of them are far west and really not too big of a deal to take care of right NOW.

What happens if Silverado keeps pumping warriors? Or, what if we use Silverado to get a much needed second worker? Even if he's late and only helps with one chop on the Oracle, he'll be needed right away to improve cities 3 and 4.

You had mentioned the possibility of building the Oracle in Silverado. Did you test it? You should be able to get two chops into the Oracle (will have to steal 2 forest squares back from Delhi in the city screen). With OR, will the Oracle come way too late? Likely, but I'm not sure.

I see a rush to get city 3 out, but can city 4 wait until we know the lay of the land a bit more. If we rush out and settle, we may not put our cities in the best spots possible. Also, if we over extend ourselves, our economy will slow way down and we'll have more land to protect. I recall reading that barbs start entering our borders when all civs have an average of 3 cities each (I think I read this in the Murky Waters thread a few SGOTMs ago). If that is true (could be tested via WB I guess), would it be better to delay our 4th city to delay this happening?

Would any of these things that we're talking about affect the current turn set since they occur past T74 (assumes warror and settler complete on T74)? If the next 14 turns would be the same no matter what we build next, I still think it makes sense to play 14 turns. Then we'll know more and we can have more meaningful discussions.

IIRC, the only thing that had to be decided was worker actions...