SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[unclethrill]

What have you smoked?
Too aggressive, and too close to the coast.

Have I ever steered you wrong?

 

[BLubmuz]

Have I ever steered you wrong?

Honest, no.
I must add to this that for some reason i was thinking to 1SW of cows instead of the loacation you ptoposed. This is why i was talking about coast.

When comparing the Grassland Forest River (2 west of the Grassland Cows square) head-to-head against the Plains River square (1 west of the Grassland Cows square), the Plains River square kicks the Grassland Forest River's butt.

The above and this analysis make me agree on your proposed placement. Provided we decide to settle in that area.

ALSO: Zara will have another option that he might take, and that is to declare war. Do we want an early war?

This can be another problem. If it's Shaka instead of Zara it would be almost a certainty.

At this point some testing is more than needed. Possibly, your tests.

Last thing. I probably already said it, but... I'm conviced havr is a great addition to our team.
We were definitely lucky.

 

[havr]

I will hopefully get to do some tests later tonight.
Now I am at work, and later at the evening I have a wedding.

Basically, as I see it we have the following major questions to answer using tests:
1) If we settle a "River" city - what will Zara do?
2) Is there a good chance to get the 'Mids if we settle "Stone" first?
3) Is there a good chance to get the 'Mids if we settle "River" -> "Stone?

I think that "River" -> "Cows" -> "Stone" is out of the question, right?
EDIT: Out of the question if we are going for the 'Mids. Otherwise, it might be a very reasonable option.

OK, are those the questions we need to answer in order to progress???

BTW, what is the end date for the game?

 

[unclethrill]

Okay, Thanks for the new test save Mitchum. I'll run a test tonight to see about settling in my spot and still getting the Mids.

 

[Mitchum]

I had to make a few very minor changes to the test save here. I added one flood plains tile for Zara and changed a few forests outside of our BFCs. Nothing major, but it would be best if you used the new save just in case.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, are those the questions we need to answer in order to progress???

BTW, what is the end date for the game?

1) yes, they are
2) just go in the first page, and you'll get the answer.
I recommend you check often my posts to see the rosters and other useful infos.

I have to update them, but basically they are kept updated on a regular basis.

Okay, Thanks for the new test save Mitchum. I'll run a test tonight to see about settling in my spot and still getting the Mids.

sure.
but remember our "option"

 

[BLubmuz]

One thing i like to test is if we have any chance to build the Oracle in that river city, provided we settle it.

Only with chopping.
I think we haven't but i'd like to be sure.

I can count 4 forests, but only one inside the cultural borders

I'm a bit busy until Wednesday, but i0ll do my best to contribute.

 

[Mitchum]

I'm not sold on settling Stone first, but since many of you want to settle other cities first (and are hopefully testing those), I'll run a test settling Stone -> River -> Cow. This will give us the earliest date for the 'Mids against which we can compare the other tests.

I'll likely won't be able to do this until later tonight or tomorrow morning...

 

[unclethrill]

I had to make a few very minor changes to the test save here. I added one flood plains tile for Zara and changed a few forests outside of our BFCs. Nothing major, but it would be best if you used the new save just in case.

This is a link to the old post. Did you change the save there?

 

[unclethrill]

Okay I made one test. I failed to take notes or MM very well so I'll play another and keep track of those things but here is what I remember.

Delhi built a Warrior-> worker-> Oracle (T93)-> Settler-> Temple (Whipped)-> Lib (whipped)-> Mid (T122)
Silverado Warrior->worker->CH
River (settled in 1W of Zara's Cows) -> Monument-> Lib
Stone ->Warrior->CH

Chopped 3 forests into the Oracle, 4 or 5 into Mids.
Had 3 workers and as soon as I had Wheel, roaded and quarried. Settled Stone as soon as Wheel was done.
Research with 4 cities was at 50%(as I said I didn't MM too much so I just let it slide as needed)

Ran a Priest in Delhi. Bulbed Theo. Oracled Caste. Switched to Confusion as soon as the Missionary arrived in Delhi. Along with Slavery and OR.

In an earlier test I had a Barb City spawn to the North so I sent a warrior to the Hill 2 North of Cows and no spawn this time.

Zara settled second city but was very delayed.

Got open borders with Zara as soon as had writing.

 

[BLubmuz]

Okay I made one test.

Where Zara settled his city?
Do we have time to settle the cows/wheat before then or Zara just choose another direction?

turn 122 means 950 BC? if so, it's more than safe in BTS.
I consider 200 BC a safe date on Emperor, unless there's some industrious and boxed AI.

 

[Mitchum]

This is a link to the old post. Did you change the save there?

Yes, I did update it there. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Mitchum]

Where Zara settled his city?
Do we have time to settle the cows/wheat before then or Zara just choose another direction?

I gave Zara a decent spot for a city to the east. Maybe another test would be to put desert there and see where he goes... Just hit enter until he settles...

 

[Mitchum]

Delhi built a Warrior-> worker-> Oracle (T93)-> Settler-> Temple (Whipped)-> Lib (whipped)-> Mid (T122)
Silverado Warrior->worker->CH
River (settled in 1W of Zara's Cows) -> Monument-> Lib
Stone ->Warrior->CH

Chopped 3 forests into the Oracle, 4 or 5 into Mids.

I agree that this is a very safe date. I don't think we need to settle Stone first if this is possible. I'll see if I can MM a bit to improve that date. Were all 'Mids dates post-Math?

How was the culture battle going in River? Does a monument really make sense? Wouldn't a cheap temple be better? For a few more hammers, you get 1 culture and 1 happy...

 

[unclethrill]

Yes, I did update it there. Sorry for the confusion.

No prob. Thanks.

Where Zara settled his city?
Do we have time to settle the cows/wheat before then or Zara just choose another direction?

turn 122 means 950 BC? if so, it's more than safe in BTS.
I consider 200 BC a safe date on Emperor, unless there's some industrious and boxed AI.

No we don't. By the time I had the settler moved to the plains site, he had a settler on the cows heading at me. As soon as I settled, the settler and archer just kind of wandered in a circle for about 15 turns and then settled on the tundra south of me.
I opened WB and saw that he had room to the east to settle but he was determined to settle in my direction.

In general, I think we have plenty of time to get stone hooked up in time to get the mids and still block Zara on the river. 1W of his cows is perfect.
As far as the temple v. monument goes, the monument cost 30 and the temple costs 80 so the monument gets culture started a lot faster.

 

[Mitchum]

As far as the temple v. monument goes, the monument cost 30 and the temple costs 80 so the monument gets culture started a lot faster.

Monument = 45 hammers (on Epic). Temple = 120 * 50% = 60 hammers (for Spiritual civs). So for 15 extra hammers, we get a building that is actually useful. Monuments add little value other than to expand borders early in the game when you don't have religion in your cities. My opinion, of course.

 

[BLubmuz]

No we don't. By the time I had the settler moved to the plains site, he had a settler on the cows heading at me. As soon as I settled, the settler and archer just kind of wandered in a circle for about 15 turns and then settled on the tundra south of me.
I opened WB and saw that he had room to the east to settle but he was determined to settle in my direction.

In general, I think we have plenty of time to get stone hooked up in time to get the mids and still block Zara on the river. 1W of his cows is perfect.
As far as the temple v. monument goes, the monument cost 30 and the temple costs 80 so the monument gets culture started a lot faster.

Misunderstanding.
I know we need to settle the river city "now or never more", i meant the cows/wheat city. I still think it's a good move to settle it before the stone city.

Monument = 45 hammers (on Epic). Temple = 120 * 50% = 60 hammers (for Spiritual civs). So for 15 extra hammers, we get a building that is actually useful. Monuments add little value other than to expand borders early in the game when you don't have religion in your cities. My opinion, of course.

Just a hole: the new city has no religion. How can we build a temple?
Lack of trade routes makes near impossible a religion auto spreads fast. Unless we adopt OR immediately and start build a missionary.

 

[unclethrill]

Monument = 45 hammers (on Epic). Temple = 120 * 50% = 60 hammers (for Spiritual civs). So for 15 extra hammers, we get a building that is actually useful. Monuments add little value other than to expand borders early in the game when you don't have religion in your cities. My opinion, of course.

I agree completely. My numbers were straight out of civpedia with no regard for the actual game (my bad). I think that the temple is the better choice but I think an early monument is worthwhile in a city that will need culture all game.

 

[Mitchum]

Just a hole: the new city has no religion. How can we build a temple?
Lack of trade routes makes near impossible a religion auto spreads fast. Unless we adopt OR immediately and start build a missionary.

True. I was thinking to settle River the turn before learning CoL, so it would have a religion in it starting the turn after it's settled. Settling the city too early will be costly with respect to research. Of course, all of this needs to be tested, right?

 

[unclethrill]

Misunderstanding.
I know we need to settle the river city "now or never more", i meant the cows/wheat city. I still think it's a good move to settle it before the stone city.

Just a hole: the new city has no religion. How can we build a temple?
Lack of trade routes makes near impossible a religion auto spreads fast. Unless we adopt OR immediately and start build a missionary.

That was one of the reasons I built a Monument first actually.

We need the stone for the mids and the sooner we get them the better off we are. The stone cuts the mids in half. We are safe on the cow city as long as we send a warrior up there to stop a barb city from spawning. It can be number 5 I think.

With that said, I didn't play past the mids so I don't know what will happen after that but with 4 cities we were at 50% research. If we settle river and wheat before stone and still have stone for mids then we have 5 cities and the research would be around 30-40% which I think would be unacceptable.