SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[havr]

Well, everyone except me already agreed to open borders, and Dhoom's arguments convinced me. So Dhoom's can add OB to the small-PPP if he wants, or do it in the big-PPP later one.

BTW, I am not one who will hold a filibuster. Once there is a majority on something I remove my objection to it immediately.

 

[BLubmuz]

So even on OB there's a clear majority.
I'm all for OB, if i wasn't clear.

So, Dhoom, go on... i'm curious!!!

 

[unclethrill]

I think Dhoomstriker suggested refusing the offer just in case more people wanted to weigh in on the issue and we decided to keep our borders closed. We can always offer the trade on T90 ourselves, so we've lost nothing by refusing his offer.

I would prefer to open borders too, but this allows Dhoomstriker to play his 2 turns even if the open border debate rages on.

Fair enough

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We will NOT miss out a turn of Open Borders, worry not

Spoiler :

So the only part I question in the PPP is why we are closing our borders to Zara for even 1 turn?

Does anyone see this differently??

If everyone agrees to Open Borders with Zara, then we won't be missing out on Open Borders for a turn, as I will open them immediately upon Turn 92 when I continue play after this Mini-PPP.

If not everyone agrees but we have a majority that want to Open the Borders, we also will do so immediately upon Turn 92 when I play the second PPP of my turnset.

All I was saying was that I would not Open Borders YET. But I won't be ending the turn. We still have anywhere within the same turn to Open Borders with Zara.

I see no reason to delay open borders even one turn.

That was never the plan. However, it will still be the first turn that we can have Open Borders on the turn that I pause play after the end of the Mini-PPP (because this turn is the first turn that we will "know" Writing), so it is a decision that does not need to be made now.

Since it was a decision that could happen immediately or by waiting until the next PPP without changing anything, I felt that it was worth showing the courtesy to allow anyone who objected to the idea of immediate Open Borders to present their case.

 

[havr]

So, Dhoom, go on... i'm curious!!!

Probably, he is trying to figure out whether doing OB AND setting the science rate to 60% might actually lose one beaker, and actually the optimal science rate is 58.2% and trying to figure out how to net that flask.



Just kidding. I know these optimizations are important and I appreciate the hard work spent into them.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

BTS Forces Binary Science Down our Throats

Spoiler :

So, Dhoom, go on... i'm curious!!!

Since Irgy hasn't been online since I posted the PPP, it is fair to wait for his approval. If he approves, I'll play on. If he disapproves of something, we'll try and convince him or he'll try to convince us and then I'll play.

I have a busy schedule this evening anyway, so even if Irgy had woken up just to chime in, I wouldn't be ready to play it out.


EDIT:

and actually the optimal science rate is 58.2% and trying to figure out how to net that flask.

If the game offered proper mathematical calculations, then this kind of ridiculous optimization wouldn't been needed. Instead, BTS made a bad change by offering to calculate the fractional values but not retaining them from turn-to-turn. If the programmers weren't so float-go-lucky, they'd perform some proper math and we wouldn't need to make so many calcuations.

I much prefer Vanilla and Warlords, where, yes, there is still the potential loss of a bonus Flasks each turn by not running an ideal proportion of Science output, but that really only has a maximum potential loss of 1 Flask per turn. In Vanilla and Warlords, because each and every fractional value is kept for your empire (it appears as slightly more Gold than the slider percentage indicates), you don't have to stupidly plan 6 turns ahead to save up Gold to 0% Science, just to be able to run 100% Science for a while.

BTS, on the other hand, can have you losing 1 Flask and 1 Gold per turn for EVERY CITY THAT YOU OWN* on EVERY SINGLE TURN! It's totally stupid math.

With the addition of an Espionage Slider, it's an even more horrible move on their part, as you can lose as many as
1 Flask, 1 Gold, 1 Espionage, and 1 Culture from EVERY SINGLE CITY* on EVERY SINGLE TURN.

It's one of the dumbest things that the BTS designers/programmers/whole team did and it really ruined the game for me. If not for all of the other additions to BTS that weren't ported back, I'd say "screw BTS" and probably wouldn't play it.
[/ end rant]


* Let me qualify the "every single City" remark: It should be noted that fractional values are added up across different Cities, so if the summed fractions exceed an integer value, you'll at least get that integer value.

Yet the game tips suggest that you "raise your Espionage Slider," implying that you should run it at 10 to 20% per turn. If you do that and if you also need to run the cultural slider at 10 to 20% per turn for Happiness reasons, it's not hard to believe that you'd have both Gold and Science Rates at somewhere between 20 to 60% each. In such a seemingly "obvious thing to do" kind of case, you stand a very strong chance of losing the fractional values from just about every City, if not every City.

 

[Irgy]

Morning everyone I'm happy with the PPP as it stands. Keen to open borders straight away too, but it doesn't really matter if we wait until later in the same turn.

 

[havr]

Morning everyone

Only if you consider 2am as morning. . A little funny this play-around-the-globe. We have teammates from GMT+10 to GMT-10.

Anyway, I am going to sleep hoping to see some good news in the morning. (no pressure)

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We Met Our Partial-Turnset's Goals
We did it! The Oracle and Confucianism are ours!

Confucianism was founded in Riverside, right where we wanted it.

Spoiler :

In case you were wondering, no, I did not switch to the Caste System Civic.


Scouting
In other news, our scouts report that the water is as deserted as the Desert is (unless the Desert is filled with Oil, which would likely be DynamicSpirit's evil trick).

Spoiler :

Warrior 6 has moved 1N to help fog-bust one more square.

Warrior 3 will be able to safely return to a PHFor:
- We move next, with no Barbs in sight, so we move to the Wheat
- If a Barb Warrior appears anywhere besides the PHFor to the SW of the Wheat, we will climb the PHFor. After that, we'll be about as safe as we can be in the wilderness
- If a Barb Warrior appears on the PHFor to the SW of the Wheat, we will retreat back 1E onto the PFor. In this way, the Barb Warrior will be spawn-busting for us to the west and is going to have the greatest chance of "wandering away." If he pursues, we'll stand our ground and get the Forest defensive bonus plus 1 turn of Fortification Bonus (5%)


Other Random Info
1. We should be able to have The Wheel researched on or around Turn 99.
2. It sounds like the team has agreed to Open Borders with Zara, so that will be one of the first things that I'll do in the next turnset.
3. My current tentative plan is to hold off on western exploration until later in my turnset, once The Wheel has come in. At that point, we can put a Worker on the Stone to start building a Road. He'll spawn-bust in place of Warrior 6, while Warriors 2 and 6 go westward to ensure that no spawn-busting gaps are formed to the west, while the Worker will cover the northern area that Warrior 6 had been spawn-busting.
4. Zara still only has 1 City, hahahahaha!

 

[havr]

Good. Looking like everything is going as planned.

I guess that our next immediate goals are Pyraminds & Christianity.

I will do some tests once the test game is updated.

It seems we are having quite a bit of luck with Zara. It is very unusual for the AI not to found a second city this late... The only caveat is that we may need to be careful that a fellow AI will not accidentally wipe him out...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Zara being small... potentially being eliminated or vassallized

Spoiler :

I will do some tests once the test game is updated.

It seems we are having quite a bit of luck with Zara. It is very unusual for the AI not to found a second city this late... The only caveat is that we may need to be careful that a fellow AI will not accidentally wipe him out...

One thing that should be tested (you can even use an old version of the test game) is whether or not we can Liberate a City to someone else's Vassal.

You can't "trade" Cities in the Trading Screen, but there might or might not be the ability to Liberate a City using the F1 screen's Liberate icon.

A quick test would be to open the the World Builder and change the "Diplomacy" option--you can assign who is a vassal of whom... just put Zara as a Vassal of someone and see if we can still Liberate a City to him.

Depending upon the answer, we may even have to "build some Cities for Zara" later on, such as one or two in that Desert. "Here boy, come and get it!"

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Next Major Goals

I guess that our next immediate goals are Pyraminds & Christianity.

Right, those things plus fixing our economy.

 

[Mitchum]

Excellent work, Dhoomstriker!!

To be sure that the test game is as close as possible, can you tell me the food/hammer situation in Delhi including the number of overflow hammers coming out after the Oracle?

Note: I've been doing a lot of testing lately. I'll report back my findings soon...

EDIT: You can play Pac Man on the Google search page today. It's the 30th aniversary!!

 

[unclethrill]

Zara being small... potentially being eliminated or vassaled


One thing that should be tested (you can even use an old version of the test game) is whether or not we can Liberate a City to someone else's Vassal.

You can't "trade" Cities in the Trading Screen, but there might or might not be the ability to Liberate a City using the F1 screen's Liberate icon.

A quick test would be to open the the World Builder and change the "Diplomacy" option--you can assign who is a vassal of whom... just put Zara as a Vassal of someone and see if we can still Liberate a City to him.

Depending upon the answer, we may even have to "build some Cities for Zara" later on, such as one or two in that Desert. "Here boy, come and get it!"

An other choice, and much less savory, is that we may have to use one of our declarations to protect Zara at some point. That would be bad so we need to do the best we can to avoid that alternative.

 

[Mitchum]

In the interest of moving the testing forward, I followed Dhoomstrikers PPP, so this save should be correct. Good testing!!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Details for Setting up the Test Game--please confirm that these values match what you did and let us know if the Test Game is good to go or not

Spoiler :

To be sure that the test game is as close as possible, can you tell me the food/hammer situation in Delhi including the number of overflow hammers coming out after the Oracle?

Delhi is producing a Library.
It is working: 2 Corn, Copper, GRiv Irr, GHRiv Mine, PHRiv Mine
It has 43/48 Food and 0/135 Hammers
There are 16 Hammers that are overflowing from The Oracle

Writing was researched at 100% on Turn 90
Writing was researched at 60% on Turn 91, switched to the GHRiv Mine
Research is now set to 0% on Turn 92 and The Wheel is our next tech. I can't tell you how much overflow we have until next turn (I'm not that good at counting pixels) but the amount is neglibile--maybe 1 or 2 Flasks, by the looks of it.

Silverado and Riverside continued to work their Silver and GRiv squares, respectively, so no changes should be required in either case

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Saving Zara's (Pathetic) Civ

Spoiler :

An other choice, and much less savory, is that we may have to use one of our declarations to protect Zara at some point. That would be bad so we need to do the best we can to avoid that alternative.

If things get that drastic, remember the often-forgotten functionality of "gifting units." Say, I don't know, Longbowmen that we pre-promoted to City Defenders. Or even just pre-promoted Archers and let Zara pay to upgrade them!

 

[Mitchum]

Details for Setting up the Test Game--please confirm that these values match what you did and let us know if the Test Game is good to go or not

That matches what I have, so the test game is good to go.

 

[unclethrill]

And Great TS Dhoom.

Is Irgy up now? LOL.

Can't wait to see the rest of you PPP. Is there anything we need to discuss heavily before we see it?

 

[unclethrill]

And Great TS Dhoom.

Is Irgy up now? LOL.

Can't wait to see the rest of you PPP. Is there anything we need to discuss heavily before we see it?