SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

I think that we need to OB with Zara as soon as possible. He isn't likely to walk a settler past our capital to settle his 3rd city and he could just walk around us if he wanted to put some city over there so there is no reason to delay the OB with him.

I also like the trade for cows.
 
I think that we need to OB with Zara as soon as possible. He isn't likely to walk a settler past our capital to settle his 3rd city and he could just walk around us if he wanted to put some city over there so there is no reason to delay the OB with him.

I also like the trade for cows.
 
Dhoomstriker said:
I looked at our Demographics. In the early game, Zara had 3 to 4 times our Power level. Now, he has about 1.65 times our Power level. I'm not sure how The Oracle, Writing, Code of Laws, an extra Religion, and an extra Missionary will calculate into that value, but we'll (if all goes according to plan) have those things in hand by the time that we can Open Borders with Zara.

I had a post a while back about what affects power and none of those things mentioned above do so. In a nut-shell, there are 4 things that affect power:

1. Population - every even pop in a city adds 1K (i.e. a city of 4 adds 2K)
2. Military-type techs - Early ones included 2K: Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry; 4K: Wheel, Alphabet, Metal Casting; 6K: Math, Archery; 8K: BW; 10K: IW
3. Military units - warrior (2K), archer (3K), spear (4K), chariot (4K), cat (5K), axe (6K), Sword (6K).
4. Military buildings/wonders - walls (2K), forge (2K), barracks (3K), Military Academy (6K), Heroic Epic (8K)

Obviously, there are others but I only named those relevant to the early game.
 
Just had a look at the test game. Not a particularly game changing comment, but warrior 6 would spawnbust better 1N of where it is. All of the tiles in the southern row of the square it spawnbusts are revealed by the culture from Dehli anyway - one doesn't look like it would be but is because of a hill.

I like the spot riverdale is in, I hadn't seen (or at least hadn't noticed) that location from the screenshots, but I like it.

It's looking like Zara is going to be a bit of a nobody in our game, with all his settling dramas, which I think is great news.

I'm still in the open borders straight away camp. I'm not very worried about his scout going somewhere else, and the only spot I'd be worried about him settling is the blocking spot that we're settling after the stone, which he can settle as soon as he gets his act together anyway.
 
All of the tiles in the southern row of the square it spawnbusts are revealed by the culture from Dehli anyway - one doesn't look like it would be but is because of a hill.

Yes, I had proposed the same thing. The concern at the time was that a barb could come around the peak and be right on top of us. The up player will have to pay attention and watch out for this.

Now that the barb has been killed up there, I think we should do it as well. It unfogs 1 additional tile, but 1 tile is 1 less tile for a barb to spawn.

In fact, I'd even like to pull warrior 3 1 tile W. This will 100% fog bust the north, east and west, leaving only the NE and SE near the silver.
 
OB with Zara has two problems that I think of:

1) His scout will "escape". I am quite happy with letting him wonder around in our west.

2) I once saw the AI do it to me: he signed OB, sent a Galley to inspect my cities, saw they were weakly defended (hey, I was on a continent alone) and attacked. By OB we let Zara see how weak we are now. (and we are weak, in the Power graphs of S-GOTM we are on the bottom)

Well, we could also use open borders to our advantage. Not only will we get a +2 gold per turn trade route right away in Riverdale and an additional foreign trade route in Delhi (+1 gold per turn) once its border expand in 29 turns, but if we open borders on the turn we learn writing, we could also scout out Zara's land. I'm dying to find out what he has in his capital and what lies to the east. Knowing this will give us more insight into what he is doing and why. It was harder to do this earlier because it would have cost us 1 gold per turn to do so. But now that we only have 4 fog busters, we can afford to scout Zara's land.

Yet one more advantage to losing our warrior!! :goodjob:
 
Zara trades with Gandhi
Cow <-> Corn
Clam <-> Cow

This is really just a shell game. In the end, we're really just trading corn for clams. But it does do two things:

1. It gives us access to cows without knowing Animal Husbandry.
2. It gets us trading with Zara that much earlier (plus with 2 trades rather than 1), which will only help our relations with him.

Note, I will update our save game to give Zara 2 cows and 2 clams so that we can do this in our actual game.

OK, I added the resources, but for some reason we do NOT have a trade route with Zara in our test game like we do in the actual game. Any ideas why? His capital is connected to Riverdale by road and river... This should be the same scenario as in the game.
 
More Issues before the PPP can be finalized

Real Life
Spoiler :
Dhoom doesn't seem to sleep much
This fact caught up with me. I literally fell asleep at the computer and dreamed crazy dreams about different Civ paths. It was more like a nightmare.

I'm also going to be quite busy this afternoon and evening, but I have at least got a tentative PPP written. However, there are still some outstanding issues that I have with moving Warriors that I'd like to implement, which I will mention below.



Science Efficiency--You don't need to read this, it just explains one bit of efficiency that I will add into my PPP about Science Rate manipulation in order to gain a couple of Flasks
Spoiler :
Today, while trying to put together a PPP, I found out a neat way to gain us some extra Science into The Wheel:
Turn 91, we set Science to 60%. Had we done so on Turn 90, we'd get fractional losses, due to the following situation:

-----
Type of input = Delhi + Silverado + Riverside
Science Flasks = 8.4 + 4.8 + 1.2 = 14.4, which is floored to 14 and we lose 0.4 Flasks
Gold = 5.6 + 3.2 + 0.8 = 9.6, which is floored to 9 and we lose 0.6 Gold
-----

That's one of the normal costs of not running Binary Science.


HOWEVER, on Turn 91, we switch from a PFor to a GHRiv Mine, netting us 1 extra Commerce, which WILL give us exact Science multiples across our various Cities:

-----
Type of input = Delhi + Silverado + Riverside
Science Flasks = 9.0 + 4.8 + 1.2 = 15.0, which is floored to 15 and we do not lose any Flasks
Gold = 6.0 + 3.2 + 0.8 = 10.0, which is floored to 10 and we do not lose any Gold
-----

We will still research Writing in the same amount of time.

In exchange, we can spend the Gold that we saved (7 Gold) plus the Gold that we gained (3 Gold) on Flasks AFTER we have completed our Library, netting us more Science Flasks overall.




Exploration--Please read this stuff and comment
Spoiler :
Okay, now it's your turn to allow me to explore! We fought so hard as a team early on just to get out an early explorer. This team seems to place a high value on map intelligence. Therefore, I do not think that I should be denied the chance to explore a bit with our units (as safely as possible), too!


Exploring Zara's capitol area
Mitchum said:
Well, we could also use open borders to our advantage. Not only will we get a +2 gold per turn trade route right away in Riverdale and an additional foreign trade route in Delhi (+1 gold per turn) once its border expand in 29 turns, but if we open borders on the turn we learn writing, we could also scout out Zara's land. I'm dying to find out what he has in his capital and what lies to the east. Knowing this will give us more insight into what he is doing and why. It was harder to do this earlier because it would have cost us 1 gold per turn to do so.

But now that we only have 4 fog busters, we can afford to scout Zara's land.
I could offer to give you guys 2 turns of exploration with the Confucian Missionary in Zara's lands. We would get the Confucian Missionary on the same turn that we can Open Borders with Zara (unless I click on Fishing with The Oracle or unless an AI gets The Oracle or Confucianism on the next turn--they can't beat us to either one of them 2 turns from now, due to us building a Wonder or learning a tech "at the end of our turn before each of them gets their turn"). After 2 turns' worth of exploration, I'll have to turn back with the Confucian Missionary, so that we can get the Confucian Organized Religion bonus in the capitol within a reasonable amount of time.

As Mitchum said, this exploration is with our 5th unit outside of our borders, so doing so is free, whereas before doing so would have cost us 1 Gold per Turn.


Exploring the Wheat
Well, we've come so far, why not push on?

There's a strong chance that the Barb Warrior near the Wheat will come after us and suicide on us. Right now, he's helping to fog-bust the east from any peninsulas that might be out there in the Desert. He's also helping to discourage Zara to settle towards the Wheat as Zara's City 3.

I do not fear the Wheat going as City 2, but once Zara's City 2 is down, the Wheat location is at risk--the longer that we keep a Barb unit there, the better.

Thus, I would like to explore some of the Coast near the Wheat. I believe that I can safely do so, without having to fight the Barb Warrior.

That would leave the Barb Warrior alive to fog-bust for us and to block Zara, in exchange for us finding out if there are any Seafood Resouces by that Wheat. If there are, then we can still consider alternate settling locations, as we'll probably not want to build a City just for 1 Seafood, some Coast, and the rest being Desert.

You guys took your risks with exploration, while this area is relatively risk-free--there almost certainly can't be another Barb Warrior to the NE with this other Barb unit in the area having been spawn-busting, so I only need to watch out for where the known Barb Warrior goes (by using the visibility of "Enemy Movements," which we should have enabled as per our team's chosen game options, if I am not mistaken, but which I'll have turned on regardless of what our team's chosen game options say). So, it's about as safe as any exploration can be. I also have TWO PHFor squares to "retreat to" should the need arise.


Exploring the western Coast
I'm also curious to see if there is a second Seafood Resource off to the west, to go with our Crab Resource.

Now that we have our 3 western fog-busters in place, I'd like to implement my earlier suggested plan of sending them west two squares for a bit, to cover each others' fog-busting gaps and them back to their fog-busting positions.

I drew screenshots to this effect a while ago and the idea seemed to be generally accepted, so I'd like to execute it now, so that we can 100% plan out our western settling locations.


Basically I'm looking for feedback from anyone who vehemently objects to any of this exploration or else from people who like the ideas or don't really care and want to say "go for it, give us the PPP so that you can play already, buddy," or something to that effect. ;)
 
Regarding exploration, I'm all for it. I'm even for sending Riverdale's warrior into Zara's lands as I don't fear a war declaration right away. Using the missionary is great, but he'll only get 4 squares in if using roads. I'd like to explore his entire land, which would require more than this.

Regarding exploring west and NE, I think it's a good idea, but I would prefer that you not do it at the same time. If we have 3 warriors moving west and one moving east, the entire north is un-spawn busted. I would suggest that you do the 2-step shuffle west and then back with the 3 warriors first (and maybe even the the fourth warrior too). When they are back into position, then start exploring NE.

:newyear: EDIT: I was running a test game and the barbs started causing problems N of Delhi for me. Maybe it's better to explore the wheat first so that the warrior can be back in place to handle the barbs better.
 
I agree with Mitchum. I would like to see all of Zara's land and I don't fear a DoW from him right now. I also think that as hard as we worked to fogbust, we need to explore in a fashion that minimizes the risk. Otherwise have at it. You have been the heavy poster with all the details for everyone's PPP so I'm pretty sure that your PPP will be comprehensive.

Are you willing to post a 2 turn PPP and play those out and then post the "rest of the PPP" so that we can go from there?
 
Mini-PPP for Turns 90 through the start of Turn 92

Unit Legend
Spoiler :
Warrior 1 = north-west fog-buster
Warrior 2 = far west fog-buster
Warrior 6 = close NE fog-buster

Warrior 3 = guarding the north on our planned City 5 settling location
Warrior 4 = RIP. Your heroic sacrifice shall remember you with fondness and glory
Warrior 5 = Fortified in Riverside

Warrior 7 = Fortified in Delhi

Worker 1 = 1S of Delhi, pre-chopping
Worker 2 = NE + E of Delhi, building a GHRiver Mine which is almost complete



The Current Situation
Spoiler :
1. Our Science Rate is at 100% with 2 turns left to research on Writing
2. Delhi has 4 turns left on completing The Oracle (2 turns after Forest-chopping to co-incide with learning Writing)
3. Silverado has 12 turns left to complete Worker 3
4. Riverside is building a Monument. The City will grow in 5 turns, meaning that the Monument should be complete in 7 turns, due to whipping after we grow
5. Zara is researching Meditation. The game says that he will finish it in 9 turns (although AIs change their tech rates around, so this number may not change linerally each turn)


Turn 90, 1750 BC
Spoiler :
Worker 1: Select him and cancel his Forest chop. He's already completed his action (chopped) for the turn, but I need to move him next turn in order to chop out The Oracle, so I absolutely have to stop his current task. This move is the most important move of the turn: don't forget to do it!
Trade with Zara: His Cow for our Corn
Warrior 1: Skips his turn with no units in sight. From this turn on, I can't plan his moves, but they'll probably all be "skip turns," in order to "Barb Watch"
Warrior 3: Currently sees a Barb Warrior to the SE + E of him. He will explore the Wheat as safely as possible, while the western fog-busters help to cover a bit of the east, hoping to leave the Barb Warrior alive in order to better harass Zara
Warrior 6: 1N Grassland, as per Irgy's suggestion and Mitchum's implication. We'll still fog-bust the west completely, while helping to fog-bust a tiny bit more of the land to the west of Warrior 3
Warrior 2: will stay in place, skipping his turns on "Barb Watch." Once Warrior 3 is back in position after exploring (after an indeterminate number of turns), then we'll send out Warrior 2 and Warrior 6 to the west, to scout out the Crab, during the time that Warrior 3 covers more of the area to the NE of Warrior 6 and to the west of Warrior 3



Turn 91, 1725 BC
Spoiler :
Check to see if The Oracle was built or if Code of Laws was founded, by looking in the Event Log. If both are still available, then 99.99%, they will be ours. 0.01% chance is for human error.
Delhi: Switch the PFor to a GHRiv Mine for a "free" Hammer and a "free" Commerce (free compared to if I'd waited for the Worker to tell me that the Mine was done)
Science Rate: Set it down from 100% to 60% for one turn, as per my earlier-mentioned efficiency gain on Science, still learning Writing at the end of this turn, to co-incide with the completion of The Oracle
Worker 1: 1NW GFor, Finish the Forest chop into The Oracle
Worker 2: Finishes the Mine on the GHRiv square that we switched Delhi to work
Warriors 1, 2, and 6: Stay in place while skipping their turns, but are on "Barb Watch" duty: if a Barb appears, then Warrior 6 might have to move
Warrior 3: Still exploring the Wheat area as safely as possible



Turn 92, 1700 BC
Spoiler :
If The Oracle wasn't built at the beginning of last turn, complete it.
Select Code of Laws for what you want to research next (to avoid possible errors with the next tech selection screen).
Select Code of Laws for what you want for free from The Oracle.
Delhi: builds The Oracle -> Library
Research: goes from Writing -> The Wheel
AIs never ask you for Open Borders on the first turn that you learn Writing, but in case Zara asks, select "Care to negotiate?" and then don't give him the deal
Science Rate: Set to 0%, so that I don't have to remember to do it later
Save the game and inform the team on whether or not we got The Oracle and Confucianism
 
PPP is good.
Make it so, Number One! :lol:

(I should actually be the captain to say that, but I felt like saying it anyway).
 
Exploration:
i'd like too see what there is in western coast. you must take care to not let the central area unfogged, for any reason and not even for 1 turn.

This said, do your best.

For the rest the plan seems good.
I'm just thinking to set the research to 60% in the inherited turn and to raise it to 100 inthe turn before writing.
But if the overflow is the same, just do what you posted.

Good luck, those 2 turns are the first milestone to our victory.
 
I agree with Mitchum. I would like to see all of Zara's land and I don't fear a DoW from him right now.

I've been silent because I've been running tests. In my game, a barb actually spawned SE of Riverdale on the only unfogged tile. If my warrior were out exploring Zara's lands, we could kiss Riverdale goodbye because it was at pop 1 and I didn't have enough pop to whip a unit. I think we need to keep the warrior in Riverdale just in case.

Better may be to move him 1SE so that he spawn busts the tundra squares...
 
Great PPP. Go ahead and play with my blessing.
 
I agree with the PPP.

Go ahead and play your two hard-earned turns and then you can hand over the save to Irgy... Just kidding. I guess we'll let you finish the rest of your turnset.

EDIT: Not that you would do this since you're a bit paranoid (:D), but no need to upload the save. Just post screen shots and let me know the hammer/food/beaker counts. Thx.
 
Science Rate--Binary Science is the way to go almost all of the time and when in doubt, use Binary Science
Spoiler :
I'm just thinking to set the research to 60% in the inherited turn and to raise it to 100 inthe turn before writing.
But if the overflow is the same, just do what you posted.
Unfortunately, we'd lose out by switching away from Binary Research at just about any other time in the game. We just happened to get lucky in this one case where the numbers worked out to add up to whole numbers, instead of fractions of numbers.

If we switched away from Binary Reserach on the turn prior to the turn that I am suggesting, for example, then we will lose partial Flasks and partial Gold. Later in the game, we can also miss out on fractional gains from Libraries and Markets, if we do not always use Binary Science. You can read about the details in my previous message, under the "optional reading" Science Efficiency heading. Note that the reading of my message is not optional if you want to comment on the subject! ;)
 
So the only part I question in the PPP is why we are closing our borders to Zara for even 1 turn?

Our culture doesn't block him at all. His scout is wandering aimlessly but he doesn't have to. He could easily walk all the way back to home.
Our culture doesn't cut off of the land currently. He might have to walk around us but he can still get anywhere he wants, unless we are protecting the land behind Silverado but he could just as easily sail there.

I see no reason to delay open borders even one turn. It just costs us money and turns towards friendliness.

Does anyone see this differently??
 
So the only part I question in the PPP is why we are closing our borders to Zara for even 1 turn?

Our culture doesn't block him at all. His scout is wandering aimlessly but he doesn't have to. He could easily walk all the way back to home.
Our culture doesn't cut off of the land currently. He might have to walk around us but he can still get anywhere he wants, unless we are protecting the land behind Silverado but he could just as easily sail there.

I see no reason to delay open borders even one turn. It just costs us money and turns towards friendliness.

Does anyone see this differently??

I think Dhoomstriker suggested refusing the offer just in case more people wanted to weigh in on the issue and we decided to keep our borders closed. We can always offer the trade on T92 ourselves, so we've lost nothing by refusing his offer.

I would prefer to open borders too, but this allows Dhoomstriker to play his 2 turns even if the open border debate rages on.
 
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