SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Irgy]

Can't we hire a couple of scientists while we are growing Silverado to cover for the missing flasks?
I think we need only one, since our effective science rate is around 50%.

Maybe we cannot afford the population, or we haven't built a library (we can use caste), or we cannot delay some crucial build, but I just wanted to raise this option.

It's a fair point, but Dehli is the only city with a library at the moment, and its citizens are busy enough building settlers, a granary and the pyramids.

Honestly if we were going to grow Riverdale before hunting/fishing we really should have done it many turns ago when we first founded it. Given that we haven't I think it makes much more sense to just wait until we have those techs, both to help it grow and to justify it growing in the first place (by giving it some tiles worth working).

I can see the argument that growing it is an investment, as we will get more out of it eventually by growing it. However, beakers sooner are worth a lot more than beakers later, and if you account for that I don't think growing it does pay off at all even in the long run. We can do more now with the silver beakers we get immediately than what we can do with the benefits of growth later.

 

[havr]

It's a fair point, but Dehli is the only city with a library at the moment, and its citizens are busy enough building settlers, a granary and the pyramids.

I think that while we build a granary we can safely switch a corn-farm to a scientist and put silver to work that farm. We will not really lose much because science will cover missing commerce from Silverado, and food is switched to it instead of Delhi. Also, food is worth more after the granary is built, right?

(Oh no! here comes a novella from Dhoom on the ratio of usefulness of food before granary vs. usefulness after granary.

It will be interesting and enlightening.)

Honestly if we were going to grow Riverdale before hunting/fishing we really should have done it many turns ago when we first founded it. Given that we haven't I think it makes much more sense to just wait until we have those techs, both to help it grow and to justify it growing in the first place (by giving it some tiles worth working).

You are correct BUT we were shooting for critical techs on our strategy. Our strategy is to get as many religions as possible and at that time we couldn't afford slowing tech. If we miss some key-techs our all strategy will be worthless. Now for the 'mids things are different. Delaying a few turns is something we can risk. It will not be nice to miss them, but it wouldn't kill our strategy. It is a reasonable risk to take.

 

[Mitchum]

I think that while we build a granary we can safely switch a corn-farm to a scientist and put silver to work that farm. We will not really lose much because science will cover missing commerce from Silverado, and food is switched to it instead of Delhi. Also, food is worth more after the granary is built, right?

Although I think the idea has merit, it would require a test game to see what it does to our Pyramids and wheat city dates. Until settler 4 and 5 are done, Delhi really should be working every high-food and high-hammer tile to ensure that we are able to settle Bedrock and the wheat city before Zara beats us there.

In addition, the silver tile is arguably the most powerful workable tile we have in our empire right now. Not working it for half a dozen turns while Silverado grows seems very counter intuitive to me.

You are correct BUT we were shooting for critical techs on our strategy. Our strategy is to get as many religions as possible and at that time we couldn't afford slowing tech. If we miss some key-techs our all strategy will be worthless. Now for the 'mids things are different. Delaying a few turns is something we can risk. It will not be nice to miss them, but it wouldn't kill our strategy. It is a reasonable risk to take.

Currently, Theology and Math are on the critical path. Hiring a scientist of a single turn gives us a small chance of getting a Great Scientist rather than the needed GPro. It appears that you are suggesting that we hire this scientist for several turns, so our odds of getting the Great Scientist go up even further.

I think we should stick with our current plan (based on mutliple test games) until someone is able to back up their claims with a test game of their own.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Granary, Food, and Silver Novella

Spoiler :

I think that while we build a granary we can safely switch a corn-farm to a scientist and put silver to work that farm. We will not really lose much because science will cover missing commerce from Silverado, and food is switched to it instead of Delhi. Also, food is worth more after the granary is built, right?

(Oh no! here comes a novella from Dhoom on the ratio of usefulness of food before granary vs. usefulness after granary.

It will be interesting and enlightening.)

Ask and you shall receive!

Okay, let's break down some of the ideas that are being brought up here, because there are SEVERAL factors at play.
1. The race to beat Zara to the Wheat City location
2. The timing of Delhi's Granary
3. Temporarily stopping the use of the Silver
4. The concept of working a Scientist Specialist in Delhi
5. Growing Silverado (Irgy, I think that you keep calling this City "Riverdale" by mistake) to Size 2 and Silverado's Granary
6. What Silverado's 2nd citizen will work


"Holy crow, Batman, I didn't mean to poke around that much, I just wanted to touch upon a point or two!"

Well, the problem is that all of those factors are inter-related.


Okay, you seem to admit that we shouldn't be switching away from a Corn Resource in Delhi while buildng Settler 5, which I agree, as doing so would disrupt our chances of success with factor #1.


Factor #2 is timed precisely--if we whip for 1 population point, Delhi's Foodbox will be at the PERFECT level. If we whip for 2 population points, Delhi's Foodbox will be quite close to the PERFECT level. If, however, we DO NOT work the Corn during the time that we are building the Granary, then for certain we cannot whip for 2 population points at an effective time, so we'll end up with the loss of about 1 population point (not from whipping--from lack of growth and inefficient Granary usage)--and that loss of 1 population point gains us nothing in return, except for the chance to grow Silverado a bit now. It's a big loss to lose 1 population point in Delhi when we have so many useful things for Delhi's citizens to do, but that's about how much Food worth we'd lose by not working the Corn for a few turns PLUS not getting the Granary at an ideal time.

Now, you COULD try to say that "well, we can still delay the Granary by whipping it for 1 population point and not growing that much for a while," but what do you end up doing? You go from a safe Pyramids date to a risky Pyramids date. You greatly slow Delhi's growth. And by getting The Pyramids late, we greatly delay our ability to use Representation-based Scientists, so our Science rate will continue to stagnate. That's a lot of tradeoff for a partial-population point in Silverado.


Now, add to that fact point #3--the loss of Science from Silverado. As Mitchum alluded, the Plains Hills River Silver Mine is the strongest square in our empire. The SILVER IS SO STRONG THAT WE BUILT A SIZED-1 CITY JUST TO USE IT! That's how valuable it is. Every turn that we don't work it, our Science rate takes a nose-dive. We also fall behind all other SGOTM teams when we don't use it, as surely they can use it on every turn in their own Delhis.


Point #4 about a Scientist Specialist does not have to go hand-in-hand with giving up the Corn. Instead, you could work the GRiv Irr instead of the GCornRiv Irr in Delhi, losing 1 turn on Settler 5. That situation puts point #1, the Wheat City, in greater jeopardy, but it can be done. Now, if you ALSO want to run a Scientist Specialist, why not do it AFTER we have Representation? There is no way that a 3-Science Specialist will make up for a 3 Hammers plus 6 Commerce (= 6 Science on many turns) square.

The only way that I can see Scientist Specialists making up for temporarily not working the Silver Resouce is post-Representation. The sooner that we can build The Pyramids, the sooner that we can hire these post-Represenation Scientists, at least generating the same amount of Science per turn as working the Silver could.


Growing Silverado to Size 2 also takes time. Time that we will be doing what--not building a Settler. Time that we will be building a Granary. Now, a Granary works best when you complete it when your Foodbox is half full. But, if we complete a Granary when we are halfway to Size 2 and then build a Settler, the Granary will HAVE ZERO EFFECT until after the Settler is complete. The net result? We simply delayed the Settler for ZERO IMMEDIATE GAIN--we could have equally built the Granary AFTER the Settler and seen the EXACT SAME GAIN from the Granary in exchange for NOTHING except the bad point of delaying when the Settler is complete. Every turn that the Settler is delayed is one more turn that our new City isn't productively helping out our empire.

Okay, well how about we aim to complete the Granary right around the time that we grow to Size 2 or else just shortly thereafter by a turn or two? The net result? The Granary provided us with ZERO GAIN on the way to growing to Size 2. If we build a Settler next, the Granary will have had ZERO POSITIVE IMPACT on our empire until after the Settler is complete and we finish growing to Size 3. Only then will you see a benefit from the Granary in this scenario. As before, you could just as easily build the Settler and then the Granary, seeing the EXACT same value coming from the Granary but without the delay of settling the new City that the Settler will create for us.

EDIT: By the way, it's only 38 turns, not 40 turns (40 turns was my rough estimate) for us to complete a Settler in Silverado.


Silverado at Size 2, point #6, has nothing useful to work. Without Fishing, the Lakes and Coasts are unworkable. Even if we did slot in the Fishing Tech, without a Lighthouse, the Lakes don't even help us to build Settlers any quicker, as the 2 Food will just be eaten by the citizen that works the Lake. Such squares barely pay for themselves Commerce-wise, too--we'll likely gain 2 Commerce for an increased Maintenance cost of 1 Gold, netting us 1 Commerce per turn and 0 Food per turn. Whoopdie-doo.

1 Commerce additional per turn in exchange for:
a messed up tech rate, every future building in Delhi delayed, the chance to completely miss The Pyramids, and a Delhi that is too small to run enough Scientist Specialists when the time comes for us to try for a Great Scientist as our 3rd Great Person. So, very likely, bye bye Philosophy. Was that 1 Commerce per Turn worth it?

Wouldn't it be far better to just spend the time to optimize our Worker actions, which Irgy has already been doing an excellent job of, so that we can get a few extra Commerce per Turn WITHOUT NEEDING TO MAKE THESE KINDS OF SACRIFICES? Isn't that AMAZING? We get our 1 extra Commerce per Turn AND we get:
even more Commerce per Turn than 1 extra Commerce per Turn, a Science rate staying on track, Delhi's growth and produciton on track, an excellent shot at building The Pyramids, and an excellent shot at meeting our Great People goals which are direclty tied to achieving our primary strategy?! Isn't that amazing?


So, let's just stick with this amazing plan and forget about trying to get 1 extra Commerce out of Silverado, because quite frankly, if we instead put our collective heads together on getting our Workers to perform goal-based, efficient actions, we'll make more than 1 extra Commerce per Turn without needing to make any sacrifices.

Whereas if we don't do so, we'll miss out of this potential Commerce that our Worker actions COULD have gained us but we threw away because we were too busy trying to stagnate our empire just to get 1 Commerce in exchange for the multiple Commerce and other benefits that well-organized Worker actions could have netted us, not to mention all of the other gains that we get by not stagnating our empire just for that 1 Commerce per Turn.[/QUOTE]

 

[Dhoomstriker]

PPP v5 Comments

Spoiler :

Version 5

Overall, the PPP looks very good! Nice work!


I'm only going to emphasize two points that I previously mentioned in my PPP v4 comments. Thus, you should already be aware of these points, but if you've forgotten them, you can refer to my comments about PPP v4, for details.

108: ...Swap warriors 7 & 8, walk warrior 8 NW-N to plains forest.

I'm going to recommend that you add one more action to your PPP (just edit it in, as it's not a change, just a warning to yourself), that says something like:
108: ...Swap warriors 7 & 8, walk warrior 8 NW-N to plains forest. Double-check that Delhi is still working the Priest.

I am making this suggestion just in case the swapping of the Warriors gets the Priest fired. If the Priest is fired, a whole cascade of bad events could occur--Christianity might not get founded in Stone City (Bedrock?), the Stone then wouldn't be Quarried in time, and The Pyramids would be delayed. So, it's worth putting in this minor reminder into your PPP, right?

113: ...(warrior 8 can settle on stone city).

As I mentioned, it would be preferred if you instead did:
113: ...(warrior 8 can go SW to help temporarily spawn-bust for Warrior 2, while Warrior 2 explores the west Coast. After that task is complete and after Warrior 2 is back in his old spawn-busting location, Warrior 8 can go wherever you see fit, such as fortifying in Stone City).


Other than those things, the PPP looks good-to-play (just do your best to play according to what's written--it can be hard to do so with all of the revisions you've had to make, but do your best!).

If you do find that you forgot to do something while you are playing, it's worth pausing play and reporting the issue to the team, just to see if we may need to adjust things in order to still meet our goals as best as we can with the revised version of events.


Thanks for all of your hard work!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Details on Exactly WHEN to Whip the Granary in Riverdale

Spoiler :

116-120: ...until the settler is complete, after which we will switch civics and chop then whip the granary...

The best time to whip is when the Foodbox will equal half of the Foodbox's maximum value at the Size that you whip to.

Foodbox maximum values, if I recall correctly, are:
33 at Size 1 (once this value is met, we grow to Size 2)
36 at Size 2 (once this value is met, we grow to Size 3)
39 at Size 3 (once this value is met, we grow to Size 4)

Since we are whipping from Size 3 to Size 2, the Foodbox maximum value at the Size that we whip to will be the Foodbox maximum value at Size 2: 36. 36 / 2 = 18.

So, once we have 18 Food collected in the Foodbox (or at least close to there, if our City growth won't give us this exact value), that is when we should whip the Granary. Not sooner.

That said, we'll still want to switch Civics (Org Rel and Slavery) and Religion (Confucianism) on the turn that Settler 5 is complete, so that we'll gain from Organized Religion bonus immediately in Delhi while building the Granary, even if we won't whip in Riverdale for a few turns.

I don't have the game in front of me to tell me exactly on what turn Riverdale should be whipped, but, if, for example, we have only 12 Food in Riverdale's Foodbox, then wait to whip Riverdale's Granary until we have 18 Food stored in the Foodbox (or a number close to there--say, 17 or 19 Food). This "stored" value is what you "already have" in the Foodbox without counting the amount of Food that you'll gain on the current turn.


Now, since it'll take one turn for the chopped Forest's Hammers to be added to the Granary, you can safely chop the Forest 1W of Riverdale and then whip the Granary later, based on the ideal quantity of Food being stored in the Foodbox. It's even possible that this ideal amount of "stored" Food might not be achieved until Unclethrill's turnset--I do not recall the exact timing.

 

[Mitchum]

@Irgy

One thing I've thought about mutliple times, but keep forgetting to post. Keep an eye on the cow tile in Riverdale. We'll want to start working that tile as soon as our culture takes it away from Zara. In my earlier testing, it actually happened on T115, so it could easily happen during your turn set.

Have you noticed when we get the cow tile in your test games?

 

[Mitchum]

Now, since it'll take one turn for the chopped Forest's Hammers to be added to the Granary, you can safely chop the Forest 1W of Riverdale and then whip the Granary later, based on the ideal quantity of Food being stored in the Foodbox. It's even possible that this ideal amount of "stored" Food might not be achieved until Unclethrill's turnset--I do not recall the exact timing.[/SPOILER]

I know that you're aware of this because I've heard you talk about it before, but be sure not to chop a forest into Riverdale's granary until after we've revolted to OR and Confucianism.

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, let's invest on Silverado stagnation.

Proposal: after dehli reachs the desired size and the settler for wheat city is on its way, can we consider to grow that poor city?

 

[Mitchum]

OK, let's invest on Silverado stagnation.

Proposal: after dehli reachs the desired size and the settler for wheat city is on its way, can we consider to grow that poor city?

Doing this will delay Math and the Pyramids. If you're so conviced that this is the correct thing to do, can you run a test game showing the impact to our Pyramids date and science rate?

If not, I suggest that we wait until after the Pyramids are completed before we even entertain this idea. Everything we're doing is based on careful testing and planning. To make a change like this would require some evidence that doing so wouldn't negatively impact our Pyramids date.

In any event, the wheat city settler won't come out until after Irgy's turn set (unless he has to whip it). If it does look like he will have to whip our settler based on spotting Zara's settler heading north, he will stop and you can bring this up again if you think it makes sense. Otherwise, I think Irgy can play his turnset as planned.

 

[BLubmuz]

Doing this will delay Math and the Pyramids. If you're so conviced that this is the correct thing to do, can you run a test game showing the impact to our Pyramids date and science rate?

If not, I suggest that we wait until after the Pyramids are completed before we even entertain this idea. Everything we're doing is based on careful testing and planning. To make a change like this would require some evidence that doing so wouldn't negatively impact our Pyramids date.

In any event, the wheat city settler won't come out until after Irgy's turn set (unless he has to whip it). If it does look like he will have to whip our settler based on spotting Zara's settler heading north, he will stop and you can bring this up again if you think it makes sense. Otherwise, I think Irgy can play his turnset as planned.

Sure, but a delay on the 'mids of 2-3 turns is worth the grosth of a city.
I fully understand the importance of working the silver, but we risk to have built a totally useless city. Anyway, we'll go back on this after Irgy TS, right.

Just this: do we are roading the path to Wheat city? Otherwise we can't react quickly if we spot Zara's settler.

 

[Mitchum]

Sure, but a delay on the 'mids of 2-3 turns is worth the grosth of a city.
I fully understand the importance of working the silver, but we risk to have built a totally useless city. Anyway, we'll go back on this after Irgy TS, right.

I disagree that Silverado is a "useless city." It is providing a large percentage of our commerce (both science and gold) at the moment and will continue to do so until we start working more cottages or until we run Representative-powered scientists.

Dhoomstiker outlined 6 reasons why growing Silverado now has very limited positive impact in his post titled "Granary, Food, and Silver Novella'. Did you read and understand it? If not, I suggest you do so and address the points he bought up there if/when you decide to push growing Silverado to size 2. Also, a test game proving only a 2 or 3 turn delay on the 'Mids would be nice to convice us of your plan.

Just this: do we are roading the path to Wheat city? Otherwise we can't react quickly if we spot Zara's settler.

Yes. Our current plan has us building 2 road segments toward our wheat city location. This will speed up our settler's progress to this spot. We don't have time to build more roads as our workers are constrained by their required actions in Bedrock (cottages and a quarry) and Delhi (chopping the Pyramids).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The Road to Wheat City, as planned, will be the Ideal Length

Spoiler :

Yes. Our current plan has us building 2 road segments toward our wheat city location. This will speed up our settler's progress to this spot. We don't have time to build more roads as our workers are constrained by their required actions in Bedrock (cottages and a quarry) and Delhi (chopping the Pyramids).

What Mitchum said is correct.

However, I would like to add that not only do we have a partial-Road-network to Wheat City planned, it is already the IDEAL size of a Road.

To demonstrate what I mean:
- Currently, it will take us 3 turns to get a Settler from Delhi to the Wheat City location
- If we make the Road one square longer than planned, we will still take 3 turns to get there
- If we make the Road two squares longer than planned, we will still take 3 turns to get there
- Only if we make the Road three squares longer than planned could we possibly save 1 more turn for the Settler to get there. Since Irgy is watching Zara, this additional turn will not help us in beating Zara--we will already be able to beat Zara by a safe margin of number of turns

So, yes, we have considered the Road to Wheat City possibility and partway through Irgy's turnset, we will have built the ideal amount of Roads to get our Settler to the Wheat City location with plenty of time to spare.

 

[havr]

Granary, Food, and Silver Novella
Now, add to that fact point #3--the loss of Science from Silverado. As Mitchum alluded, the Plains Hills River Silver Mine is the strongest square in our empire. The SILVER IS SO STRONG THAT WE BUILT A SIZED-1 CITY JUST TO USE IT! That's how valuable it is. Every turn that we don't work it, our Science rate takes a nose-dive. We also fall behind all other SGOTM teams when we don't use it, as surely they can use it on every turn in their own Delhis.

Just for the record, soon keeping a size-1 city to work that silver will be more a liability then a benefit. That square gives us 6 comm + 3 hammers. Already now, before we built Bedrock that city alone costs us 3 gold per turn (tested in WB). Once we build Bedrock it will cost us 7. You know what will happen when Wheaty comes in.
So science-wise we are not going to get much benefit soon.

Of course I am not saying to abandon the city. First, I don't think it is possible. Second, it is an holy city (although in real-life holy cities tend to resurrect after they are destroyed. Jerusalem was completely destroyed&abandoned twice).

 

[Irgy]

Ok, it's done. Writeup to follow. A complete success as far as I can tell. No screw ups, everything to plan.

Zara's settler came into sight on turn 120, 4 turns later than the test game. This means the settler was not whipped, and we're a turn ahead in the settler race of where I was in the test game as the settler was already built turn 120 rather than whipped. It also co-incides nicely with the end of my planned turn set. As a quick overview, here's the log that it gave me when I updated the file:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1375 BC to 1000 BC:


Turn 108, 1300 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!

Turn 110, 1250 BC: The borders of Silverado have expanded!

Turn 111, 1225 BC: You have discovered Meditation!

Turn 112, 1200 BC: Mencius (Great Prophet) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 113, 1175 BC: Bedrock has been founded.
Turn 113, 1175 BC: Christianity has been founded in Bedrock!
Turn 113, 1175 BC: You have discovered Theology!

Turn 114, 1150 BC: Christianity has spread in Delhi.

Turn 115, 1125 BC: The borders of Bedrock have expanded!

Turn 120, 1000 BC: Gandhi converts to Confucianism!
Turn 120, 1000 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!
Turn 120, 1000 BC: Gandhi adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 120, 1000 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ? for Riverdale.

 

[Irgy]

Well, basically if you want to know what happened, look at PPP v5, because that was what happened. I added in Dhoomstriker's suggestion of exploring E, which was a success:

Land Ho!

Spoiler :

Some other things that happened:

The Great Wall, built 1300BC

Spoiler :

Zara founds Gondar

Spoiler :

Christianity acheived, right where we wanted it

Spoiler :

Zara's settler did not appear until turn 120

Spoiler :

And that's basically it. I'll have a look for this buffy autolog like the one Dhoomstriker posted. Here's the current state of the empire:

Spoiler :

 

[havr]

Good job!

Surprisingly everything is going exactly according to plan. If we will not win this one then probably our strategy was faulty to begin with...

On the bad note: our score is the lowest among the teams! Maybe that doesn't mean much now... maybe it is because other teams got the silver in Delhi and have a "spare city" over us... I don't know. But it is something to be noted.

 

[Mitchum]

Ok, it's done. Writeup to follow. A complete success as far as I can tell. No screw ups, everything to plan.

Great work, Irgy! It probably felt like you were watching the same movie for the one hundredth time with all of the test games you played. That's very cool that we didn't have to whip the settler in Delhi.

I'll try to get an updated test game up later today.

 

[Mitchum]

Here is the test save. The only differences, which I cannot control are:

1. Zara has 58% control of the cows in the real game (56% in the test game)
2. Zara has 81% control of the FP tile NE of Riverdale in the real game (80% in the test game)

The ramifications of this are that we should wait to work the cows until we have 52% control of them rather on the turn that we first gain access to them.

It took a lot of effort to get Zara to settle Gondar in the right place on the right turn, but I finally managed.

As always, please let me know if you see any issues with the test save so that I can fix them right away.

You're up, Unclethrill!! Your target is to complete the Pyramids on T135, the last turn of your turnset.

EDIT: I forgot to say, in playing through this test game, I have to say that all worker actions were highly optimized. Great work, Irgy!!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Turnset Comments
Overall

Spoiler :

Great job on the turnset, Irgy!

Although I haven't had a chance to look at the game itself and might not be able to for quite a while, from your screenshots it seems that you moved the Warriors into good Barb-City-fog-busting positions.

You also seem to have kept us on track with our stated goals for the turnset. Of course, now you've set a high standard for squeezing the most out of our limited number of Worker actions, such that other players will have to strive hard to be able to achieve equally effective results!

Wheat City

Spoiler :

It seems that we lucked out by not having to whip Settler 5. I wonder how other teams are faring in this department and if, although our Score and Power may be lower than them, we'll be able to get a stronger long-term benefit by grabbing the Wheat that other teams may not be able to get.

Then again, some teams may already have their Pig + Cow + 1-2 Fish Cities up-and-running, so they may get some additional short-term benefit over us.

Demographics--Exports minus Imports

Spoiler :

From your Demographics screenshot, it looks like there is some heavy AI-City-trading going on--one AI has -6 for Exports minus Imports, which to me indicates that at least one of the AIs involved in that trading has a ton of Cities already and is probably trading with at least 2 other AIs.

This situation could either indicate that there is a Buddhist Block out there or else a No-State-Religion Block out there, of 3+ AIs. Of course, Zara might be one of the AIs involved in this trading block, although it is unlikely that he's involved with trading with 2 AIs that have Buddhism as their State Religion, since he is an AI that takes Religion quite seriously.

Cities in the West

Spoiler :

As for the west, it appears that we only have 1 Crab there. I'm thinking that we'll put a City on the Rice Resource

Spoiler :

or 1W of there, although the Rice itself will be a very weak square without "wasting" a Flood Plains square by Irrigating the Flood Plains square, which is why I suggested settling on the Rice--but I'd be fine with either location

and another City to grab the Crab plus share one of the Fish (i.e. settle the Crab City 1E of the western peninsula, on the GFor square). This way, we'll maximize the amount of Coast that these two "extra" Cities will allow us to work.

The Fish can go to our Great Person Farm once the Great Person Farm gets large enough to need it, but temporarily, it could be shared by the Crab City once the Crab City is first founded, in order to help get the Crab City off to a good start.

The Great Person Farm would, of course, grab the Pig, Cow, 2 Fish, and a couple of Lakes for its Food-based squares, not to mention the fact that it'll also get the +2 Health from its Fresh Water bonus.

I think that our 6th City to be settled (the one after Wheat City) will most certainly be that Great Person Farm, so as to get it started growing ASAP.