SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Irgy]

Hmmm... I thought we were going to try for a GPro as our second great person to buld CS and then use Caste System to run extra scientists for a third great person having better odds to be a Great Scientist. If you run scientists now, our second GP could be a GS...

There was a long discussion about this already. Basically the conclusion was that we can guarantee the prophet but can't guarantee the scientist, so although it's better to get the prophet first, it's also better to get one of each than two prophets, so a scientist first isn't such a bad thing.

Why work a plains tile and not a grassland river tile? We need the growth more than the hammer.

Sorry that was an error, I meant a grass river.

Dhoomstriker suggested having a worker go to this tile 6 turns before we want the chop to be completed. That way, the worker won't have to waste a turn to climb the forested hill now to pre-chop and again in 15 turns to complete the chop. I guess this isn't a huge deal since Dhoomstriker said that he had several extra worker turns when he played.

He really has nothing to do though otherwise. He's got time to build a road this way, which is as good as anything else he'd be doing, and which means he doesn't waste time climbing it twice either.


By the way, I left out a worker move on turn 112, worker 4 builds the road that's been partly built already in the plains forest square, to help the settler along. Wouldn't have been forgotten as it's obvious that worker is meant to do it, but just mentioning before someone else does. I'll edit it in in fact.

 

[Mitchum]

116: Stone city workers move to build a cottage on the other floodplains 1W of where they are. Switch religion to Confucianism. Switch civics to Slavery and Organised Religion. Worker 2 takes a detour from cottage building to finish the chop for the granary.

How much longer until Delhi will be building its granary? How much food is in Riverdale's food basket? Would it be possible to wait for a few turns and revolt to OR and Slavery until Delhi is ready to make use of those civics too? Doing so too early costs us 2 or 3 gpt...

 

[Mitchum]

There was a long discussion about this already. Basically the conclusion was that we can guarantee the prophet but can't guarantee the scientist, so although it's better to get the prophet first, it's also better to get one of each than two prophets, so a scientist first isn't such a bad thing.

Also, I thought that we didn't want many Great Scientist points for our 2nd Great Person anymore, because of your great idea to use Caste System for our 3rd Great Person, to give us the best chance of making it a Great Scientist, while taking an almost-for-certain Great Prophet (the idea Great Person) for our 2nd Great Person?!

So it appears that Dhoomstriker and I had a different idea of what the conculusion to that argument was...

He really has nothing to do though otherwise. He's got time to build a road this way, which is as good as anything else he'd be doing, and which means he doesn't waste time climbing it twice either.

He can build cottages that will be used. He can pre-chop forests for the library. If you need him to get the Pyramids done, I get it. But I thought it was possible to get all of the worker actions done around Delhi and Stone City with 3 workers.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

- I guess the point about Scientist Specialists is that running them will be dependent upon whether we whip the Settler. If we don'twhip the Settler, we shouldn't need to run a Scientist in Delhi pre-Representation

- Worker 2 (or any Worker) should not be putting a Road on any of the 5 squares that are ear-marked to be chopped into the Pyramids. The point of chopping those Forests specifically is that those Forests have a high chance of regrowth. If we put Roads on those squares, then the whole purpose of chopping those specific Forests makes no sense anymore. So, the whole idea about Worker 2 pre-chopping early and then building a Road on a pre-chopped square is not in line with the Forest choices. Instead, I'd suggest that Worker 2 pre-build a Cottage on the Forest W + W of Riverdale, as doing so takes a long time and can be used as a reasonable "placeholder" action

- I'm also not a fan of switching into the Civics while we're still building Settlers in Delhi. I didn't pay attention before how long it would take to complete the Settlers relative to your turnset, but likely we won't even need to switch Civics until Unclethrill's turnset, or at least not until Settler 5 is done, at which point I think that you were going to pause your turnset anyway, to see when the timing of the Civics should be switched, right?

So, it is quite possible that this Civic Switching will fall outside of your turnset therefore it might be left to Unclethrill to complete the 1W of Riverdale chop with Worker 2. As I said above, if Worker 2 spends his time "delaying" by Cottaging the Forest-less Grassland River (I think it's SW + W of Riverdale but I don't have the map in front of me to confirm that fact) and then continues to partially COTTAGE the Forest W + W of Riverdale (I think that's where it is located) the Grassland River Forest, then those actions should be enough to take up Irgy's turnset. Pre-cottaging the GRiv For W + W of Riverdale (or wherever that square is) is useful, while it also prevents us from having the Worker putting down Roads that might mess with our regrowth probabilities, while we won't need the Roads within this turnset, anyway


> 108: Worker 3 NE and chop 1 turn.
I still disagree with this move, since that Forest is a Forest that we won't want to chop down for a good number of turns. We should be working on the Road towards Wheat City, if at all possible, as that Road will be useful within your turnset.

That means either:
moving to the GHFor NE + N of Delhi and then starting and completing the Road there
OR
moving to the GCornRiv to the N of Delhi and partially building a Road there, probably followed by moving to the GHFor NE + N of Delhi and starting & completing the Road there

I'd prefer the first option, as doing so leaves you a bit more flexible in terms of the timing of getting Worker 3 up towards the NW and the Flood Plains that need to be Cottaged.


> 108 Switch Riverdale's new second citizen to a plains river square.
I think that you guys already talked about this point, but try to make sure that it gets updated in his PPP before you play


> 109: Worker 3 move N and build road for 1 turn (1NE of Dehli)
This related point is one that I think you guys already discussed. That said, I really do think (without testing, though, but from my memory of the timing) that Worker 3 can safely:
1. Move to the GHFor NE + N of Delhi
2. Build a complete Road there
3. Move to the GCornRiv just next to there (1SW? 1S? I don't remember)
3. Complete the Road on the GCornRiv
4. Have enough time to make it to the Flood Plains square to be able to help Cottage it in time for building the Cottage on turn 3 of having settled Stone City

If we do have enough time for Worker 3 to do so, then that's my recommended series of actions, as it means that we will have our Wheat City Roads done in time while leaving Worker 3 in position to help with Cottaging and Quarrying Stone City as part of a Worker trio.

> 110: Worker 1 moves and builds a road for stone city (1S of the stone itself)
I'm thinking that Worker 4 should be fine with building the Road path by himself towards Stone City and that Worker 1 can be Roading the Stone at this point, since Worker 1 is finally off of spawn-busting duty.

> 110: Worker 4 moves NE and builds a road on the grass hill.
I'm not certain about this point, because I'm not sure which GH square we're talking about. Still, if Worker 3 is the one who is Roading the GHFor to the NE + N of Delhi, then Worker 4 shouldn't be going back there to help. I can't think of any other GH square that we were planning on Roading, unless it was far to the NE on the way to Wheat City, which is a bit overkill--two Roads will be equal to three Roads in terms of how fast Settler 5 can get to Wheat City. Only if we build a really long Road might we get Settler 5 there in 2 turns, which we don't have the Worker turns remaining to do. If it's some other GH square, then it could be one that has a chance of Forest regrowth and is likely a square that we don't want to put a Road on.

> 111: Worker 4 NE and pChop plains forest 1 turn.
> 112: Worker 4 E to finish a road over the plains forest for the settler.
I'm not really sure what's going on here, so I will just say what I think about Forest-chopping and you can see if what I say applies to this situation. All of the Pyramids-forests' pre-chopping could easily happen AFTER we've gotten at least 2 Flood Plains Cottages (preferably 3 Flood Plains Cottages) and a Stone Quarry in Stone City, without delaying The Pyramids. The only chopping that might need to happen before then by any of Workers 1, 3, or 4 is just to "kill time until Wariror 8 arrives" (for Worker 1--and even then a Road or something else COULD be built instead) or for getting a free Worker action via movement. Only if you find yourself with absolutely excess Worker turns should you bother to spend time pre-chopping the chosen Pyramid-forests, and only then if it is during the time period where Settler 4 is not yet Settled.


> 113: Move Christian missionary to explore.
It should be made clear that with a 2-move unit that isn't following a Road, it is preferable if he uses his 2nd movement point to end on a square that won't have a chance of Forest regrowth. Moving onto a Forest itself with the Missionary's second movement point is one such example, as would be ending on a turn with an improvement or a square that can't grow a Forest. If you can make two moves on a turn, then the first move of the Missionary on each turn won't matter (and its first few moves won't matter if Roads are involved)--it's only where he ends his turn that matters for possible disruption of Forest regrowth possibilities. Sometimes you can't help where you end your turn, but there should hopefully be a path that can be planned out that will minimize the disruption of Forest-regrowth chances.

Again, if this Christian Missionary is costing us 1 Gold per Turn (a test game can validate this point), then we should just send him straight to Delhi and aim to spread him before we whip the population down, as whipping the population will immediately reduce the chances of a successful religious spreading action (population Size factors into the calculation of whether a Missionary is successful in his spreading mission).

If he only costs us 1 Gold per Turn during a short period of time, say, when Settler 5 is alive, then perhaps we should aim to spread him on the turn that Settler 5 appears. It's only if we won't have these extra costs to maintain him should we explore him, given the knowledge that we expect to be able to see Zara's capitol and thus see when he completes his Settler.

I thought about that point--it's on the "end" of your turn that you build a unit. The same thing happens for an AI--that's why an AI won't move their unit or promote their unit as soon as the unit appears, as they haven't been able to move that unit yet. If you remember your self-play game, you may have seen this effect. Thus, if we can see into Zara's capitol, we will 100% know when he builds a Settler there.


> 113: Settle stone city, build a granary there. Bulb Theology. Move Christian missionary to explore. Fire the priest in Dehli.
I don't see it stated as to what the citizen that used to be a Priest would do. If we're still building a Settler, we should aim to work a Mine (probably the PHRiv Mine), as this square will give more raw Hammers than working a Grassland Irrigation River square would into the Settler by 1 Hammer per turn. If we've whipped Settler 5 by this point, or as soon as we do whip it, then we'll have to figure out if growth (Grassland Riv Irr) or Hammers (PHRiv Mine) are more important for when building the Granary.

On the turn that the Granary is complete (which sounds like it'll almost surely happen in Unclethrill's turnset), we'll certainly want to emphasize Food over Hammers, but until the turn that the Granary "exists"--the turn that we whip the Granary doesn't count as the Granary existing--we have to make a call on which square is better.


Again, I have very limited time to be posting messages, so the format is not pretty, so once again I apologise and I just hope that my ramblings are of some use to you.

 

[Irgy]

- Worker 2 (or any Worker) should not be putting a Road on any of the 5 squares that are ear-marked to be chopped into the Pyramids. The point of chopping those Forests specifically is that those Forests have a high chance of regrowth.

Ok fair point. Still not used to this idea of roads preventing forest growth. I'll leave him fumbling around riverdale in that case.

I'm also not a fan of switching into the Civics while we're still building Settlers in Delhi. I didn't pay attention before how long it would take to complete the Settlers relative to your turnset, but likely we won't even need to switch Civics until Unclethrill's turnset, or at least not until Settler 5 is done, at which point I think that you were going to pause your turnset anyway, to see when the timing of the Civics should be switched, right?

Riverdale is past half-full of food, so every turn we delay the granary there we're losing food. That's the only reason I switch back as soon as possible. It's a trade-off between the benefits of food and the cost of the civics for a few turns, my opinion is that the extra food will be worthwhile in the long run.

Re: (Many different comments about worker moves, too hard to narrow down a specific quote).

The worker moves I have (and more to the point the equivalent variant that builds the road on the corn and N-NE forest hill square instead) are already optimised to get the 3 workers there just barely in time to complete the cottage in 3 turns once stone city is settled, while also having the wheat road complete. It took a lot of fiddling around, but it's done now so we can move on.

Everything they do other than building the wheat road and stone city road is solely for the purpose of not wasting worker turns.

> 113: Move Christian missionary to explore.
It should be made clear that with a 2-move unit that isn't following a Road, it is preferable if he uses his 2nd movement point to end on a square that won't have a chance of Forest regrowth.

Point noted, easy enough to do.

113: Settle stone city, build a granary there. Bulb Theology. Move Christian missionary to explore. Fire the priest in Dehli.
I don't see it stated as to what the citizen that used to be a Priest would do. If we're still building a Settler, we should aim to work a Mine (probably the PHRiv Mine), as this square will give more raw Hammers than working a Grassland Irrigation River square would into the Settler by 1 Hammer per turn. If we've whipped Settler 5 by this point, or as soon as we do whip it, then we'll have to figure out if growth (Grassland Riv Irr) or Hammers (PHRiv Mine) are more important for when building the Granary.

I'm basically going to either pause or end the turnset when the settler is complete, so for now it's safe to assume it will be working on a settler. It will be working the best tile for building a settler, which from memory was indeed the plains hill river mine.


On the whole, I'd really like to get this going soon. The suggestions have been helpful, but already most of them are telling me things I'm already doing, any more and I think we'll be well past the point of over-optimisation.

 

[BLubmuz]

Still alive!

Things are a bit better now, i just have to complete some task and i'll be ready to participate again.

I noticed Dhoom completed his TS and we're now discussing Irgy's PPP and this seems to be refined enough.

Of course i need to read at least some post here and there to catch with the discussion.

One of the last things i posted was about Tata, our missing member.
If you agree i'll PM Alan to cancel him from our team.

 

[Mitchum]

On the whole, I'd really like to get this going soon. The suggestions have been helpful, but already most of them are telling me things I'm already doing, any more and I think we'll be well past the point of over-optimisation.

Great. It seems that you have a very good handle on what you're doing. I think the issue is that the latest PPP has not incorporated all of the changes you've made. Could you post an updated PPP?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The UP Player

Spoiler :

On the whole, I'd really like to get this going soon.

I understand your frustration. I, too, am frustrated with feeling that I have to repeat points and I am sure that you do not enjoy re-reading points that you already understood.

So, what can we do to help resolve the situation?

Well, how about the following:
1. The sooner that you, as the UP player, update your PPP with corrections or changes that you have acknowledged or agreed to, the less things will get repeated and the more confident that we'll feel that you are going to remember to incorporate them.

2. If there is a point that you feel shouldn't be updated, then address that point with dialogue.


It's really hard for us to say "play on" without these two above points being satisfied and we'll probably keep coming back to the same issues until you do follow-through this way.

Discussing Issues

Spoiler :

If there's some advice that you'd rather not follow, that's fine, but that kind of a situation is when we should have a discussion on the matter.

Also, you as the UP player have more insight into why you are planning to do the things that you are planning to do than we will. The more that you talk to the points that we raise, the more we will feel that our messages have been heard and understood and that perhaps you have found a better way to do things. If you have found a better way to do things, that's fine--we can hear what you have to say and you can persuade us. Or, if we're not persuaded, we can try and persuade you back, and if there is lack of consensus, we can vote on the issues.

As the UP player, it's your duty to keep track of the points that others have raised which you do not agree with or that someone else doesn't agree with. Sometimes, a simple reply can get the agreement that we are looking for, but if people keep talking about the same points, then it's the UP player's job to keep on top of this fact and raise the relevant issues to the team.

A Specific Example

Spoiler :

Let's give an example:

108: Worker 3 NE and chop 1 turn.

I still disagree with this move, since that Forest is a Forest that we won't want to chop down for a good number of turns. We should be working on the Road towards Wheat City, if at all possible, as that Road will be useful within your turnset.

Re: (Many different comments about worker moves, too hard to narrow down a specific quote).

The worker moves I have (and more to the point the equivalent variant that builds the road on the corn and N-NE forest hill square instead) are already optimised to get the 3 workers there just barely in time to complete the cottage in 3 turns once stone city is settled, while also having the wheat road complete. It took a lot of fiddling around, but it's done now so we can move on.

Everything they do other than building the wheat road and stone city road is solely for the purpose of not wasting worker turns.

Okay, so here you are at least saying that you have a reason for doing an extra Worker move such as having Worker 3 chop for a turn: you're saying that Worker 3 is chopping because you have calculated that Worker 3 has an "extra" turn to use up before he needs to get to the Flood Plains square to start cottaging.

Great! You've collected this extra info on exactly how many "extra" Worker turns you will have via your testing. But we didn't know this fact, so simply letting us know this fact would help out a lot! Maybe our suggestions to you can thus be better-focused, knowing that the number of moves have been pre-calculated and thus changes are limited in scope. Simply by communicating the fact that you came up with the timing of Worker moves such that "X and Y goals will be met, with Z number of extra Worker actions available," we can cut down on suggestions that won't fit with that plan and you'll be less frustrated with having to explain why you are "killing time" with Worker moves, etc, while our suggestions can be more centred around ideas that fit with your current master plan.

Or, we can challenge the master plan more easily, because we can say "well, it's nice to complete goal X, but goal Y can wait and I think that goal A should be added in there, instead." Then, we'll have an issue that other team members can more readily discuss, as we'll be talking about the main issue--that of prioritizing our goals, instead of trying to figure out why you're making the Worker actions that you're suggesting and trying to work backwards to see if there is a way to do things a bit better.


Back to this example, though, we have no need to chop that Grassland Forest River 1E of Delhi now. Couldn't you instead chop a different Forest for that "extra" Worker turn? For example:
108: Worker 3 N Delhi, N GCornRiv (1N of Delhi), pRoad
109: Worker 3 E GForRiv (1 NE of Delhi), pChop

That way, you will perform 2 Worker actions that are useful: you are partially building the Road towards Wheat City and you are partially pre-chopping a Forest that we will want to chop into The Pyramids. The PPP has you building a Road in the right direction, which is okay, but it has you chopping a Forest that we won't be chopping down for a long time. Now we've just doubled the immediately-useful Worker actions in a span of two turns, and that's only for one unit.

109: Worker 3 move N and build road for 1 turn (1NE of Dehli)

The way that the PPP is written, though, while you have us building a Road towards Wheat City, you still haven't updated the location of the Road to be on a square that isn't affecting Forest-regrowth possibilities (the GCorn Riv square is one such square that cannot receive a Forest so it's a good spot to put a Road on). Your PPP instead still has you putting the Road on the GForRiv 1NE of Delhi, which is a square that we are chopping specifically for the reason that if we don't chop it, no Forests can regrow in the area, but if we do chop it, a Forest can potentially regrow on that very square. By putting a Road on that square, we mess up our chances of Forest regrowth on that square.

Also, since I already partially pre-built the Road on the GCornRiv square, the Road there will only take 2 turns to complete, whereas a Road on the GForRiv square 1NE of Delhi would have required 3 turns of buildng a Road on it. Perhaps that means you'll have even 1 more extra Worker turn to use, such as pre-chopping the GForRiv square 1NE of Delhi for an additional turn.


If we decided that we really wanted a Road on that GForRiv 1NE of Delhi, then I would counter-argue that I'd rather that we chop just about any other Forest into The Pyramids, as the whole point of selectively-chopping Forests was to increase our Forest regrowth chances, and those chances go down the drain if we put Roads on those same squares.

Ok fair point. Still not used to this idea of roads preventing forest growth. I'll leave him fumbling around riverdale in that case.

Yes, indeed, you did acknowledge the point about not wanting to put Roads where we are chopping Forests for The Pyramids. However, because the PPP was not yet updated to reflect this acknowledgement, while at the same time you are pushing to play forward, I do not feel confidence that before you play, the PPP will be updated in order to incorporate the change. If a change is not put in the PPP, then it's unfair to expect you to remember the change, so the change can thus easily be missed.


Do you see what I mean?

Help Us to Help You

Spoiler :

Make it easy for us to approve your PPP by doing the things that I suggested:
1. Update the PPP immediately whenever there is a change
2. Address each concern that players raise that you disagree with
3. Keep track of "open issues" where there isn't clear consensus and ask us to comment on those issues.

Spoiler :

Even when you agree with a suggestion but other team members appear to disagree with it, you should keep track of the issue and ask the team to comment on it. That's supposed to be one of your duties when you're the UP player. This way, people like Havr and Unclethrill will be more readily able to comment, because it will be clear to them which issues have been resolved and which ones are still in contention. Chances are, one of them will have a perspective that the rest of us hadn't thought of that may lead to a superior alternative, but they are currently handicapped in the conversation because it's not clear to them which items need to be followed-up on and which ones the rest of us seem to readily agree upon.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Tata

Spoiler :

One of the last things i posted was about Tata, our missing member.
If you agree i'll PM Alan to cancel him from our team.

I think that we've all given him a fair chance to contribute and we haven't heard a peep out of him in the thread.

Were you ever able to get in touch with Tata via a private message?

Honestly, it doesn't really matter if he stays on our roster for now. Who knows--maybe he'll show up and start contributing. If he doesn't ever show up and it's near the end of the game, we can make a point of removing him, so that he doesn't get credit for our 6th place (er, I mean 2nd place ) finish date.

If he wants to play a turnset, though, I think that the team will be in agreement that he'll have to do more than just "show up" one day and will have to start becoming active in the discussions.

From what I understand, the player themselves has to request to be removed from the team, instead of us requesting that he be removed.

Chances are that AlanH will say something similar--keep him on board until he resigns or until the game is pretty much over, just in case he does decide to partcipate.

But, if you want to push the issue with AlanH and AlanH agrees to remove Tata from the roster, then as long as Tata continues to remain silent, I will not stand in your way and will wish you the best of luck in this endeavour.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

A Better Civ 4 Experience

Spoiler :

On a different note:
I decided to play a non-SGOTM game tonight just to relax and play a mindless game. I just spent 30 minutes on the first 2 turns deciding where to settle, what to work, what to tech and what to build. I would normally be halfway done by now!

BTW thanks for making me a better CIV IV player!!!!

You are welcome.

However, I would appreciate it if you edited out the "darning" part of your message, as I'd really rather not end up in heck as my "reward," thank you very much.

The point about spending 30 minutes is that over time, you will adapt to a more-focused way of playing. What takes me hours to explain to you guys in words happens in mere seconds for me when I play; but when you're first starting out to actually plan out each of your decisions and your moves with a purpose and mini-goals in mind, your gaming will take considerably longer.

The reward will be more satisfying and effective play, while later on you'll be able to at least approach your previous gaming speed once you've collected more experience.


Think of things using an example:
Once you learned that sending a Warrior to a Hills square would give you more visibility of the surrounding area, you learned to target walking onto these squares a bit more when exploring. Once you learned that a Hills square would "eat up" both of a Scout's movement points, you learned to try not to move onto a Hills square on the first move of your Scout's turn but instead on the second move of your Scout's turn. By now, these kinds of lessons are likely ingrained into your playstyle whenever you scout.

As you add new ideas to your playstyle, such as trying to avoid disrupting Forest regrowth possibilities while exploring (where possible, such that another equal movement is possible), it will at first take you longer to play, but eventually you'll just add these new ideas to your existing repertoire of micro-decisions that lead you to explore where you explored and you'll be able to play just as (or nearly just as) quickly as before, but in a much more effective and efficient manner.

 

[unclethrill]

Tata

Spoiler :

I think that we've all given him a fair chance to contribute and we haven't heard a peep out of him in the thread.

Were you ever able to get in touch with Tata via a private message?

Honestly, it doesn't really matter if he stays on our roster for now. Who knows--maybe he'll show up and start contributing. If he doesn't ever show up and it's near the end of the game, we can make a point of removing him, so that he doesn't get credit for our 6th place (er, I mean 2nd place ) finish date.

If he wants to play a turnset, though, I think that the team will be in agreement that he'll have to do more than just "show up" one day and will have to start becoming active in the discussions.

From what I understand, the player themselves has to request to be removed from the team, instead of us requesting that he be removed.

Chances are that AlanH will say something similar--keep him on board until he resigns or until the game is pretty much over, just in case he does decide to partcipate.

But, if you want to push the issue with AlanH and AlanH agrees to remove Tata from the roster, then as long as Tata continues to remain silent, I will not stand in your way and will wish you the best of luck in this endeavour.

I have to agree with Dhoom on this. There is no real reason to have Tata removed from our roster. With no help at all, we can justify not giving a TS to him if he just pops in. Otherwise, who cares.

 

[Irgy]

Changes:
* Wheat road location is back to the N-NE via corn and gfHill.
* Now waiting longer to switch back civics and chop granary in Riverdale. I argued delaying the granary would lose food because it was past half way full, but the test game shows that by the time I whip it to 1 pop it's in fact completely full anyway.

105: Warrior NW to Dehli.
106: Worker 1 road in place.
107: Dehli switch to new cottage (from phMine)
108: Research 100%. Riverdale second citizen to grass river. Worker 3 road copper. Worker 4 walk N-N-NE to gfHill (via Dehli and corn). Worker 1 1W chop prForest. Swap warriors 7 & 8, walk warrior 8 NW-N to plains forest.
109: Worker 3 build road. Worker 1 stop chopping. Worker 4 E and build road on corn.
110: Warrior 8 is now fogbusting. Worker 1 moves to build road 1S of stone for stone city access.
111: Worker 4 NW to finish marked plains forest road. Worker 2 SE and chop for 1 turn. Cancel worker 1's road action.
112: Research to Math. Build Settler in Dehli. Worker 3 move to finish stone city road. Workers 1 & 4 build road on stone (then cancel actions). Move settler towards stone city, stopping within culture borders. Worker 2 move SW to grass river and build cottage.
113: Research 0%. Fire priest in Dehli (replace with phMine). Settle stone city. Bulb Theology. Move Christian missionary to explore Zara's land (moving only on non-forest-growth squares). Workers 1, 3 & 4 build a cottage on floodplains 1W of stone. Move warriors away from stone city to better fogbusting positions (warrior 8 can settle on stone city).
114: One worker may move to build second cottage. I will confirm in a test game whether it's practical to cottage the floodplain to the far west, with partial cottage moves on the floodplain 1W on the way back to the stone. If this does not delay the stone past when it is needed then I'll cottage the far floodplains, otherwise the near floodplains.
115: Move more workers to help second cottage.
116-120: Watch for Zara's settler, and pause if seen. Otherwise, workers 1,3 and 4 continue to cottage riverdale then quarry/road stone. Worker 2 builds cottages (including over the forest, making sure not to waste a turn in the process) until the settler is complete, after which we switch civics and chop then whip the granary.

 

[unclethrill]

A Better Civ 4 Experience

You are welcome.

However, I would appreciate it if you edited out the "darning" part of your message, as I'd really rather not end up in heck as my "reward," thank you very much.

Changed. No offense meant. I just wanted you to know how much I have learned from this experience. I agree with the synopsis of learning. We will all be better players at the end if we let ourselves learn instead of just complaining about the delays.


Just an idea but IIRC MW was way behind on turns heading into the final stretch in the last SGOTM and all of a sudden they finished a large amount of turns. My guess is that they were in the same mode as us at this point and once these many decisions were made they were able to really just 'click through the turns'.

I know everyone is REALLY tired of the detail requested in the PPP and the length of time that each TS is taking. I am too but I think that this level of detail is what has been missing in previous SGOTM by Fifth Element. We have a really good chance of winning this one IMO. If we can continue at this level of detail until we have only a couple weeks left, I am sure we will be positioned to win this with a really good score.

Ra Ra Team!!! Hooray!!

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Settler in Silverado?

Spoiler :

Another thought: Should we build a Settler before the Granary in Silverado?

A Worker would take about 23 turns, from what I recall... so a Settler will probably take close to 40 turns. That's a long time, but we keep working that Silver and may take a long time before we're going to grow Silverado anyway.

My bigger concern is that nowhere else are we really planning on making Settlers.

Delhi is busy with buildings and Wonders and can only make the odd Settler in between other important builds.

Riverdale is going to be busy with cultural buildings and working Cottages doesn't really lead to quick Settler production.

Stone City is going to make the Apostolic Palace after building a Granary.

Wheat City will need to grow for a while, but eventually could help make Settlers.

So, where are we going to make Settlers?

It's just a thought. The alternative would be to:
a) Build a Granary
b) Build a Lighthouse
c) Chop The Moai Statues

Somewhere in there, we'd work the Corn to grow to Size three, then switch over to Lake + Lake + Silver, eventually growing once we have a Lighthouse. However, all of that... could we consider delaying it for an extra 40 turns or so... if it means securing one more City location earlier on?

 

[Irgy]

If we ever bother to research hunting, then there's deer in Silverado that would help it get off the ground as well. With 4 food from deer and a lighthouse giving a lot of 3 food tiles it won't be such a bad city. It would be good to have a granary by the time we have hunting. It's then a question of timing. The granary will finish on turn 132 or so from memory? We're still a good few turns from hunting at that stage. Maybe a settler instead of a courthouse? I thought the granary had already been started and we'll lose the hammers switching to a settler, but I don't know how many hammers that is, maybe none? (can't check anything from work).

 

[Mitchum]

I think building a settler in Silverado rather than a granary/court house is a good idea. We will need to start filling in our peninsula soon. Zara will have no where to go and may try to sneak a settler on a galley up and around the north. This settler should come out right about when we need one too.

However, if we build settler -> granary -> court house, will we lose the hammers we've already invested in the court house? Those hammers are a sunk cost, so I guess we shouldn't let them affect our decision.

My vote is still to build a settler in Silverado starting on Irgy's first turn.

The rest of the PPP looks good to me.

 

[Irgy]

Changes:
* Settler in Silverado
* Confirmed that workers have time to build a cottage on the further away floodplain, so they will do so.

105: Set Silverado to build settler instead of granary. Warrior moves NW to Dehli.
106: Worker 1 road in place.
107: Dehli switch to new cottage (from phMine)
108: Research 100%. Riverdale second citizen to grass river. Worker 3 road copper. Worker 4 walk N-N-NE to gfHill (via Dehli and corn). Worker 1 1W chop prForest. Swap warriors 7 & 8, walk warrior 8 NW-N to plains forest.
109: Worker 3 build road. Worker 1 stop chopping. Worker 4 E and build road on corn.
110: Warrior 8 is now fogbusting. Worker 1 moves to build road 1S of stone for stone city access.
111: Worker 4 NW to finish marked plains forest road. Worker 2 SE and chop for 1 turn. Cancel worker 1's road action.
112: Research to Math. Build Settler in Dehli. Worker 3 move to finish stone city road. Workers 1 & 4 build road on stone (then cancel actions). Move settler towards stone city, stopping within culture borders. Worker 2 move SW to grass river and build cottage.
113: Research 0%. Fire priest in Dehli (replace with phMine). Settle stone city. Bulb Theology. Move Christian missionary to explore Zara's land (moving only on non-forest-growth squares). Workers 1, 3 & 4 build a cottage on floodplains 1W of stone. Move warriors away from stone city to better fogbusting positions (warrior 8 can settle on stone city).
114: Worker 1* moves 1W and puts a turn into a cottage.
115: Move workers 1,3 and 4 to the floodplains SE+E of stone city, to build a cottage.
116-120: Watch for Zara's settler, and pause if seen. Worker 2 builds cottages (including over the forest, making sure not to waste a turn in the process) until the settler is complete, after which we will switch civics and chop then whip the granary.
117: Move worker 1 2W to put another turn into the cottage on the remaining floodplains (1S of stone city).
118: Move worker 1 to quarry stone, and workers 3 & 4 to put a turn into the remaining floodplains cottage.
119: Move workers 3&4 to help quarry/road stone.

* For convenience of notation I assume worker 1 is the one free to move each time after the cottages are complete, but it may be swapped for a different worker depending on what order they work in.

 

[unclethrill]

Sounds good. Looks like you incorporated everything well. Good Luck!

 

[BLubmuz]

I know it's probably too late, but i'm not convinced to build a settler in Silverado.
40 turns is a lot of time and that city will never do anything if we stagnate it for such a long time.

Why not steal a corn from Dehli, grow to 2 while building a granary or anything, then switch to a settler?

Sorry Irgy, i've seen your PPP is already in v4, but i really can't see the benefit of a city at size 1 for 40 more turns.

I've seen your answers about Tata. I already asked to cancel members who went MIA in the past and there's any problem with Alan. Also, i can't consider him part of this team since he didn't even bother to tell us he was busy or else.

I'll PM Alan shortly.

 

[unclethrill]

I know it's probably too late, but i'm not convinced to build a settler in Silverado.
40 turns is a lot of time and that city will never do anything if we stagnate it for such a long time.

Why not steal a corn from Dehli, grow to 2 while building a granary or anything, then switch to a settler?

Sorry Irgy, i've seen your PPP is already in v4, but i really can't see the benefit of a city at size 1 for 40 more turns.

I don't disagree with this idea but like all other ideas, I would like to see some testing before I agree to it. How many turns would it take to grow? I ask because it means not working the silver for those turns and this will delay techs and the 'mids. Without a couple tests, I wouldn't want to chance all of our planning. I'll be glad to run a few tests like this but it will be a couple days before I can do that.