I considered not replying to this message, but there are several things that I feel couldnt be further from the truth and just couldnt hold my tongue
I mean my fingers.
I think that the discussions are so long and detailed because several team members are convinced (rightly so) that they are better players (and they are IMHO) and want to dictate every aspect of the play whether it is their turn or not...
To say that some of us are convinced that we are better players is a bunch of bull. I am probably the biggest BtS newbie on the team. I just bought the game a month before our SGOTM game started. Before that, I only played Vanilla. I have no idea how the AP works. Ive never seen 75% of the leaders. There are several leader traits that Im not familiar with. Ive never played with unique buildings or espionage. Ive never won a religious victory. This list goes on and on. On top of that, Ive only won one Deity game in my life, and it was more like an Emperor level game based on the way the GOTM staff set up the game. So to say that I am convinced that I am better than anyone else on the team is just not true. My guess is that Irgy would say the same thing. Dhoomstriker
well, in my opinion he is likely the best and most accomplished member of the team, especially in the area of cultural and diplo games. So I am taking this opportunity to learn from him as much as possible.
In fact, there is a valid argument that could be made that you are the best on the team. Youre an accomplished player that has demonstrated that he can win any victory condition at Deity level. I dont think anyone else on the team can make that claim.
Then to say that some of us want to dictate every aspect of the game is even further from the truth and is actually quite offensive. We have our stated strategy and weve discussed several things that are important to playing a solid game (i.e. forest re-growth, spawn busting, efficient worker management, citizen MM, etc.) The discussions weve been having are open to all to contribute as much or as little as they want. These discussions are not closed. Peoples opinions are listened to and discussed. Strategies and PPPs are modified based on input from the team.
If you feel that we are dictating the terms of the game, I suggest that you look in the mirror. Assuming you had time, dont you think that you would be able to be more involved in the discussions? If you played more test games or played through another players PPP, dont you think you would have comments or improvements to add? There is no way that Im a better player than you. But its obvious that I have put in more time to THIS game because I seem to be contributing more than you. Thats a choice weve both made and in no way indicates that Im dictating what to do.
What I am good at is playing test games, analyzing the situation, taking input from others, asking questions, and then tweaking my plan to make improvements. If something isn't quite right, I'll go back and play it again until it is. This is a learning process for me and I take all inputs and try to understand them to determine how they fit into my turnset.
Once Ive taken all of the comments into account and played a test game with good results, at that point I am convinced that my plan is the best, not because I feel that I am a better player but because I have empirical evidence that my plan works. I remain convinced until someone comes up with a better idea. If you recall, I was against whipping the temple until Irgy was able to show me the merits of his plan based on a test game of his own. I followed his plan with a test game and saw that his approach was better than mine, so I then became convinced that my new plan (i.e. Irgys plan) was the best approach based on a test game. Would you say that Irgy dictated to me to whip the temple? Not even close. We both had different ideas on whether to whip or grow. It turns out that Irgys plan was better, so I switched.
If we have every single step spelled out before we start then it is easier to play perfect but with this level of detail in a PPP, anyone could play the TS. I don't need to play my turns. I could go get my 8 year old to follow these steps but that doesn't mean that she contributed to the game.
I think this gets to the heart of the matter. Personally, I dont really care if I ever play a turnset. For me, the fun part of SGOTM is the process with the final PPP being the outcome of this process. I like to test, discuss, analyze, learn, tweak and re-test until things are as optimized as possible while achieving our stated goals. If playing the turns was the fun part for me, Id load up a single player game and play or Id start a public succession game and play as many of them as possible. For others on the team, playing the turns is the fun part with the detailed discussions about exactly what to do (i.e. the process) being more of a bother than anything else.
I agree that the way were playing this game and writing our PPPs, just about anyone, including my 7 year old daughter
, could play the turns. But, the fact that you didnt contribute (or felt that you didnt contribute) was a personal decision made by you and no one else. You had the option to play a test game and provide input. You had the option of reading the thread in detail and making comments of your own. But you chose not to do so. I understand that real life takes away from Civ and thats fine. But you shouldnt hold the fact that youre busy against those of us that are taking a more active role in this team.
Did you see the level of detail in my PPP? Not only did I spell out every single minor step in the detailed MM section, I gave high-level information on what each unit and each city was doing for the non-MMers on the team. I also raised 4 points that I felt needed more discussion and/or agreement before moving forward. This made it very easy for everyone on the team to get the information that they needed to comment on my turnset. Did this take more time? Yes it did. But youll notice that I didnt get a ton of questions on my MM plan. I had the details there for those who cared about it. I also focused the discussion on the 4 points that were still up in the air. I also changed my mind (exploring with Wheaties warrior) based on comments and concerns expressed by the team. I put in that extra effort into my PPP to give something for everyone so that we could all feel like part of the decision.
My PPP caused some discussion where Dhoomstriker pushed to avoid whipping the temple and he got BLubmuz to agree. I still had issue with his idea because I had played the no-whip option already and was convinced that whipping was the better option, so I ran yet more test games to show that we could complete the Pyramids and meet all of our short-term goals while still whipping the temple. I got questioned and backed up my decision with more testing.
Had I just said what I planned to do at a high level, I would have gotten a ton of questions about what each worker and citizen was doing. Had I just posted the detailed PPP, the non-MMers would have been completely out of loop regarding what my turnset was all about. Had I not raised the discussion points, people would not have known where to focus their comments. I put in a bit more work up front to provide the information at a level for everyone on the team such that the discussion going forward was based on the big picture, not the small details like to remember to switch civics on T126 or dont forget to have your citizen work the cottage when the city grows to size 4. All of that detail was already in my plan.
When people made comments, I summarized the remaining open issues and closed those issues that had been agreed. Again, this focused the discussion on the open points, not the minor details in my plan. If someone had a comment to my MM plan, I made the change or explained why I didnt think the change made sense.
Plus, if you remember, my turnset was actually Irgy's suggested plan with a few minor worker action tweaks. It was not "my" plan at all.
Honestly, the only people playing this game are Mitchum, Dhoom and Irgy. The rest of us are just being handed a checklist. And if there was a lower level of detail in the PPP then the up player would just have to answer a million questions about what they are planning to do each turn so it is better to just post it up front right now. Case-in-point: Despite the level of detail in my first PPP (yes I know it was really your PPP, Mitchum but if I would have posted my own plans, it would just have taken longer to eventually make my plan be exactly like you guys wanted it anyway), Mitchum still felt the need to request that I spell out every square that Delhi would be working. So does this mean that everyone is overly concerned with "getting it perfect" or since BLubmuz, Havr and I don't post as much, we have to be checked on more to be sure we don't screwup the game?
I dont think Im holding you to a different standard than I hold myself. In fact, I added detail in my PPP for myself more than anyone else. In order to complete the Pyramids on the turn we wanted, several small details had to work out exactly, otherwise we would not have learned Math on the correct turn or we would not have had enough hammers to complete the Pyramids (we had 0G and 1H to spare). Missing one citizen switch, civics change or science slider move would have cause the whole plan to shift by a turn or more. Look at my PPP again and you will see that it goes one or two levels of detail deeper than what you have. So its not fair to say that we are checking on you to make sure you dont screw up. I am not asking for anything from you that I dont expect of myself. If you asked me to add something that you felt was important, I would add it if I agreed or ask questions if I didnt agree or if it was unclear.
Honestly, I do not think for a second that Dhoomstriker, Irgy and I are the only ones playing this game. If you recall, Irgy was absent for some of the early turnsets. I presume that this was because he didnt have time to play test games and he was not able to understand the details of what we were discussing. I even sent him several PMs to find out what was going on and to see if there was anything we could do to make it easy for him to re-engage. Now that he has the time (or is making the time) to play test games, he is completely caught up on what is happening, he is able to participate in the discussion at a detailed level, and he drove the last two turnsets more than anyone else. Is he the best player on the team? Maybe, maybe not. But he took more of an interest in the game and he was able to contribute a lot more at both the high level and the MM level. In effect, he handed me my PPP and I filled in the detail and carried it out. Irgy went from someone on the fringe of the team to the focus of the team just by putting in that extra effort. And I'm glad he did because he's a good player and has a lot to add to this team, just like all of us do.
To be honest, the actual playing of the turnset is a minor part of the game, at least for me. Id actually be fine never playing any turns. For me, the fun is in the discussion of the strategy and things we have to do at all levels to carry out that strategy as effectively as possible.
As I said before (and Im sure Irgy would agree), if you make the time to either a) play a test game following your own ideas or b) play a test game following the PPP being discussed, your level of involvement and your understanding of the issues being discussed will go up 1,000%.
Regarding your last turnset specifically, you were absent from the team for several days, even asking to be skipped for a turn. Fine. But to come back, ask for help since youre not up to speed, and then to be offended when its given to you makes no sense to me. You had the option to say: Got it. Give me 24 hours to catch up on the issues and post a PPP. Had you done this, you could have created your own PPP based on the discussions wed been having. You even had the option of coming up with something on your own that was different that what we were discussing if you felt it was better. Or you could have asked to be skipped again until you had more time to devote to your turn. Instead, you asked for help, which you got.
Honestly, I can see how this looks from your side. Youre busy with real life. You want to enjoy this game. But there are other people on the team putting in a lot of time and have a LOT to say. You dont have time to play test games, so you dont understand a lot of what is said because it is too detailed and you havent seen the specific situation in game. You dont have anything to add to the discussions because youre not caught up on all of the discussions. When its your turn to play, youre so lost that you can either spend 8 hours getting caught up on the thread and play test games or you can take the short cut and ask for help. I get it.
But can you see how it looks from my side? Three of us are active in all discussions and were playing multiple test games. We come up with a a lot of the high-level plans and 99% of the detailed plans. Someone that isnt as active asks a question or makes a comment that was discussed and agreed 50 posts ago. Even then, one of us answers the question again or points the person to the pertainant post without much fuss or complaining. Or these inactive players make suggestions on actions to take based on opinion when we have test games that prove a different solution works. We are constantly having to re-address the same points because they dont appear to be getting through (at least there is no positive feedback that they are getting through). We ask for test games to show that the suggested actions do in fact work. Then those taking a less active role tell us that were dictating to the rest of the team what to do. Does that sound fair to you? Should those of us that are putting in extra time and effort be penalized? Should we not be allowed to suggest tweaks that allow the wheat to be farmed one turn earlier? Should we not be allowed to come up with ways to get our settler in Delhi out several turns earlier? Should we not be allowed to play test games and then offer opinions based on our experience? Should we only be allowed to spend 15 minutes a day on this game so that we are all at the same level?
Im truly at a loss for how to proceed. I feel that Im being picked on for being active, playing test games, and contributing to the team. This just doesnt feel right.
).
