Sorry, I wasn't clear enough about what I was referring to.
If you put 6 hammers into an axe, then whip for two population, you will have 96 hammers in that axe. If you then produce, say, another 16 hammers that turn from mines, you will have 60 hammers overflowing. Because the maximium overflow is 52 hammers, you will only really get 52 hammers of overflow. So far so good, you said something like this yourself already.
What happens to the other 8 hammers though? They're not lost, they turn into 8 gold. This is the hammers converted to gold which I was referring to.
... The point is that you'll do your whipping when the Wonder is almost complete. It's inefficient to whip early on in the Wonder project and then have less population points to work your Mines...
I agree with this in general. One exception however might be that you whip every 15 turns to take full advantage of the happiness returning. Certain city configurations that can grow back very quickly may end up ahead of where they'd be otherwise just building for 15 turns. I don't know whether it's a good idea in our case though. It's kind of in addition to whipping at the end the way you suggest anyway.
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough about what I was referring to.
If you put 6 hammers into an axe, then whip for two population, you will have 96 hammers in that axe. If you then produce, say, another 16 hammers that turn from mines, you will have 60 hammers overflowing. Because the maximium overflow is 52 hammers, you will only really get 52 hammers of overflow. So far so good, you said something like this yourself already.
What happens to the other 8 hammers though? They're not lost, they turn into 8 gold. This is the hammers converted to gold which I was referring to.
I didn't know the exact dynamics of the whipping to gold but I did notice that on a couple whips I got as much as 20 gold out of the whip. The messages in the game will tell you that you can whip so many pop to finish something with such and such gold and hammer overflow.
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough about what I was referring to.
If you put 6 hammers into an axe, then whip for two population, you will have 96 hammers in that axe. If you then produce, say, another 16 hammers that turn from mines, you will have 60 hammers overflowing. Because the maximium overflow is 52 hammers, you will only really get 52 hammers of overflow. So far so good, you said something like this yourself already.
What happens to the other 8 hammers though? They're not lost, they turn into 8 gold. This is the hammers converted to gold which I was referring to.
If what you claim is true, then we would INTENTIALLY want to get excess Hammers in the Axeman or Temple build item. Right now, Gold is our limiting factor, since getting more of it enables us to keep running at 100% Science for longer, getting our techs faster. Converting our suprlus Resource (Hammers) into Gold would be absolutely fantastic!
I remember reading in a recent patch... for the latest BTS or BUFFY, I am not sure, about "fixing" how overflow Gold works. I think that they were saying something about not getting the bonus for things like Stone on Wonders, but I'm not sure.
Anyway, here's another item that should be tested, as we might be able to get a bit of Gold by whipping a Granary or a Confucian Temple at the right time--who cares about where the overflow Hammers go, I care more about maximizing this overflow Gold, so that we can shave a turn or so off of our Math date every time that we get some overflow Gold.
So, for testing purposes, we'll need to figure out when would be the ideal time to whip, based on which squares in Delhi should be worked before and after the whipping, and exactly how much Gold we'll expect to obtain. If it's something like 3 Gold, the value gained might be too minimal, but if you can get 10+ Gold, then it's worth considering.
1. Reduce the cost of having a Settler and a Great Prophet "sitting around" to having them 0 extra turns above the number of turns required
Spoiler:
i.e. time the Great Prophet to come 1 turn after the Settler and time Meditation to come at the same time or earlier than the Great Prophet
2. Not delaying the settling of Stony City, as we want to ensure that we get Christianity from our Theology Lightbulb, plus we can start cottaging the Flood Plains, making the City pay for itself after not too long
Spoiler:
it was making about double (in raw Commerce) what it cost us in Gold per Turn in my saved game where I had just built The Pyramids
3. Settle the Wheat City before Zara can steal it from us
4. Get Pottery for earlier Granaries and Cottages, helping to pay for itself in the medium term and hopefully not delaying us that much in the short term
5. Chop The Pyramids post-Math, thus a consequence of this goal was to get Math ASAP
The High Level Results
Spoiler:
Turn 99, 1525 BC: The Wheel is known
Turn 105, 1375 BC: Pottery is known
Turn 112, 1200 BC: Meditation is known
Turn 113, 1175 BC: Settle Stone City, Great Prophet was born and immediately Lightbulbs Theology
Turn 123, 925 BC: Wheat City was founded; doing so delays our tech rate while offering us a realistic view how just how long Math would be delayed by settling this City now. If we wait until after Math is in, there will be a very high probability of losing the Wheat City to Zara. Since it is our team's stated goal to settle Wheat City, we had to settle it in order to have a realistic test game to compare against
Turn 133, 675 BC: Math is known and chopping begins. It took me 2 turns of chopping
Spoiler:
but I might be able to save 1 turn if I whipped the Granary for 2 population points instead of just 1, getting the overflow Hammers into The Pyramids, since I had 4 Workers chopping 4 Forests and then needed 1 more chop the next turn with a lot of overflow Hammers from it--just a few more Hammers and I could have chopped The Pyramids with 4 Workers on one single turn, reducing our potential "Forest wastage" to ZERO, should we get beaten to The Pyramids
Turn 135, 625 BC: The Pyramids are complete and we can switch our Government Civics; 3 to 4 Cottages are being worked; our first 3 Cities all have a Granary
Other Notes
Spoiler:
1. I spawn-busted the Silver Ice at the south until our borders grew over the area, to meet Unclethrill's request of preventing a Barb City from spawning down there. I built Warrior 8 to "guard" Delhi while Warrior 7 from Delhi had taken off from Delhi during a period of time where the people weren't populous enough to cause unhappiness. I left the south once our cultural borders took over the spawn-busting duty down there. It cost us 1 Gold per Turn to field this unit outside of our borders, so this cost is already factored into my test game's dates
2. I took into account the suggestions to temporarily spawn-bust the north by pulling Warrior 3 a bit west of the PHFor square, on a DesH square. I felt safe in doing so, because I could move to one of TWO PHFor squares, should a Barb unit appear and should that Barb unit also appear on one of the PHFor squares.
3. I was soon-after able to 100% spawn-bust the north and west simultaneously, by using Worker 1 to help in that duty. He built some less-than-essential Roads, but Roads that helped nonetheless. It was better than having him sit around doing nothing while spawn-busting and doing so didn't delay my Cottaging, Quarrying of the Stone, my Roading of the Stone, or my pre-chopping, since I'd managed to get a 4th Worker out relatively early to help with Worker tasks.
4. I got Settler 5 out relatively early, during a period where some of you were manually building The Pyramids. If we agree to chopping The Pyramids after Math, then I only needed to use 5 Forests (and could probably have reduced that number to 4 Forests if I'd whipped the Granary in Delhi for 2 population points instead of just 1). Either way, I chose 5 Forests that I felt were "good ones to chop," based on their location, as they'd have good probabilities of regrowing, while reducing as few other Forest-regrowth opportunities as possible. I felt good about chopping those Forests, but might feel hesitant to chop many others in the short term, at least until after we've seen regrowth or unless we feel that we need another Grassland River Cottage or a Grassland Hills River Mine, either of which is more important than worrying about Forest-regrowth percentages, if our City is able to work such an improved square.
5. I haven't really tried for a 2nd Great Prophet, so we may want to get a Confucian Temple in Delhi immediately after The Pyramids and run 2 Priests, giving us our 2nd Great Person after another 15 turns (Turn 150) or less. That way, we could pump out the first part of Civil Service (the amount that we need to research is less than half of the cost of Alphabet), Lightbulb Civil Service, and then use our increased Research rate from Bureaucracy to pump out Alphabet. A River-based capitol really favours early Bureaucracy.
Okay, so I have test game results that do pretty much everything that we wanted to do:
Spoiler:
- Get Meditation, Settler 4, and our Great Prophet at the perfect time
- Beat Zara to the Wheat City location
- Chop The Pyramids using The Stone, Organized Relgion, and Math bonuses combined
- Chop The Pyramids with minimal to zero chance of "wasting Forests"
- 100% of our time spent manually building The Pyramids was done using Organized Religion AND Stone
- Get early Granaries
- Get Cottages to pay for the detour to Pottery
- Get us set up for a Bureaucracy Lightbulb
Spoiler:
I could have done a bit better on this point if we'd run a Priest sooner, say, instead of growing into unhappiness like I did on my very last turn of the test. That way, we could get the Great Prophet a bit sooner than in 15 more turns.
The only things that I think I missed, out of all of the suggestions for the upcoming turnsets given, were:
Spoiler:
- Fishing for Work Boats that Havr admitted he didn't really have much room in his build queue to fit in, anyway. Plus, I am STRONGLY AGAINST exploring with Work Boats. I want to explore with a GALLEY that contains a Settler + a Warrior. See below under the High Level Strategy heading for details
- I am delaying Alphabet in this scenario, with the expectation that Cottages + Bureaucracy will be a far more efficient way of researching it than manually plugging away at the tech and not being able to trade for Math (Zara will absolutely not give us Math in a trade deal, as per test game results). Zara may even research Alphabet for us
Overall Analysis
Spoiler:
So, overall, I think that accepting those couple of tradeoffs, while being able to meet all of our other stated goals, makes for a good approach to follow, yes? Certainly, the Worker actions in my test game can be tweaked, as can the timing of whipping Delhi's Granary and maybe the odd other point or two, but the basic plan is there and it works.
High Level Strategy: Meeting AIs and Keeping Borders Closed means that we want to delay contacting the AIs as long as possible until we are "ready" for them
Spoiler:
Our game's Diplo Strategy is that we would meet a Buddhist AI and switch to No State Religion, which costs us our Organized Religion bonus, so we don't want to do it for too long. Then we'd Open Borders with them and send our Galley + Settler + Warrior into their lands. Find some small hole-in-the-wall area to settle... if we can do it OFF of the Coast, but next to an AI's Road where we won't have any Trade Routes with our homeland so we'll HAVE to have a Trade Route with them, it should be ideal, as we'd almost certainly get Buddhism this way, but a Coastal City could also work, due to proximity to Buddhism.
Basically, if we go exploring with Work Boats, the above strategy gets messed up.
We will:
1. Lose out on our Organized Religion bonus, which is one of the bonuses that we are supposed to get compared other SGOTM teams who probably all went for Agriculture as their first tech and a Worker first. So, we would throw away this advantage or else create a diplomatic nightmare of a situation with AIs calling us to do things that we would rather not do (Cancel deals with Zara, Give us their money or die, etc)
2. Allow the AIs to start piggybacking off of our religious techs, meaning that they could beat us to Philosophy (or to Divine Right, should we choose to grab it with an extra Great Prophet or with Music's Great Artist). Allowing them this potential advantage is counter to our religious beeline primary strategy
3. Anger some AIs for trading with their Worst Enemies, a negative Diplo modifier that lasts for hundreds of turns. If you don't meet them, you can't get yourself into this very dangerous, Diplo-destroying trap
Selective Open Borders
FURTHER, if we meet an AI WHO DOES NOT HAVE A RELIGION, we SHOULD NOT OPEN BORDERS WITH THAT AI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ABSOLUTELY DO NOT DO THAT OR OUR STRATEGY GOES DOWN THE DRAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111!!!!!! one one !!!!!!11111 one one!!!!!!!!!
If we Open Borders with an AI that does not have a religion, they will get many of our religions spreading to them like wildfire. Suddenly, you have an AI that will do everything within their power to run the Free Religion Civic, drastically messing up our game.
So, ideally, we'll first get Buddhism and then spread that religion aggressively to a big production City of ours. Then we'll spam it domestically.
Finally, we'll build 2 to 3 Buddhist Missionaries and put them on the borders of a religionless or relatively-religionless (say, Hinduism spread to one of their Cities) AI. Then BAM. No State Religion. Open Borders with them. Spread Buddhism to Cities to Cities THAT DO NOT HAVE A RELIGION IN THEM, so that the only way that non-Buddhist religion will spread to those Cities is by way of a Missionary, instead of automatic spread.
More on Selective Open Borders
Further, the more Open Borders that you have, the greater the chance for you getting "You Traded With Our Worst Enemy" negative Diplo Modifiers and "You Refused to Stop Trading with Our Worst Enemy" negative Diplo Modifiers. Getting either one of those, especially both, can quickly ruin your chances for a fast win in a Diplo game.
Ideally, we should only have Open Borders with a couple of AIs at a time.
Only once start to convert the world to Buddhism can we lay off on the Open Borders restrictions, opening them with our Buddhism brothers and sisters and probably cutting Zara off before someone gets whiny and forces us to close borders with Zara.
Dhoomstriker, you followed a very similar path that I did. However, I did not settle the wheat city and was only able to get the Pyramids 1 turn earlier than you. I think your approach would be better than mine since you achieved several other secondary goals that I did not..
4. Get Pottery for earlier Granaries and Cottages, helping to pay for itself in the medium term and hopefully not delaying us that much in the short term
I think this is key. We can't just look at the date the Pyramids are completed. We also have to look at the state of your empire afterwards. With cottages already being worked, the economy in your test game looks very good. Mine was marginally better because I was working more cottages. However, I did not produce a settler for a wheat city like you did.
Turn 133, 675 BC: Math is known and chopping begins. It took me 2 turns of chopping
Spoiler:
but I might be able to save 1 turn if I whipped the Granary for 2 population points instead of just 1, getting the overflow Hammers into The Pyramids, since I had 4 Workers chopping 4 Forests and then needed 1 more chop the next turn with a lot of overflow Hammers from it--just a few more Hammers and I could have chopped The Pyramids with 4 Workers on one single turn, reducing our potential "Forest wastage" to ZERO, should we get beaten to The Pyramids
How many turns total were you building the Pryamids? Maybe if you can't get the extra hammers somewhere else (i.e. whipping 2 pops), you could slow build a few extra turns and then chop 4 forests. It may delay the Pyramids by a turn or two, but would guarantee that we don't waste any chops into a wonder that we lose on the last turn.
1. I spawn-busted the Silver Ice at the south until our borders grew over the area, to meet Unclethrill's request of preventing a Barb City from spawning down there.
I haven't really tried for a 2nd Great Prophet, so we may want to get a Confucian Temple in Delhi immediately after The Pyramids and run 2 Priests, giving us our 2nd Great Person after another 15 turns (Turn 150) or less.
Let's keep this out of the discussion for now since it is well beyond your turnset and does not need to muddy the waters, so to speak. For the record, I think early Civil Service is a good thing.
PPP Proposal for the rest of my Turnset, which matches what I did in the test game
Some notes about what's included and what's not
Spoiler:
Note that the PPP does not include all but the first of my many Warrior moves, although I wrote down what I did in the test game on paper, so that I will have notes to guide me. What I did in the test game may or may not to the real game, but I have at least a general outline for myself. Thus, I have a good idea of when I want to do things like:
1. Spawn-bust the north from the DesertHill with Warrior 3
2. Push out Warriors 3 and 6 a bit east while Worker 1 covers for Warrior 6 in the west
3. Scout the south and spawn-bust it until our cultural borders expand over these areas
However, I won't put those details in my PPP, as the actual dates that they may happen could be off by a couple of turns and are too dependent upon what happens (if a Barb unit appears HERE vs THERE, then the whole plan shifts by a couple of turns as I dodge the Barb unit with Wariror 3, etc). The Worker actions (including what Worker 1 does) were 100% validated by a test game. I have a couple of tweaks that I would like to try out, which I will later indicate with "EDIT:" tags, should they prove to be good, but overall, I'm pretty happy with what I've got already and expect any further tweaks to be minor (such as Roading in a slightly different spot with Worker 1 during the period of time where is primary task is spawn-busting).
Notes about Worker Actions
Spoiler:
My PPP is set up as a giant learning opportunity. Now is your chance to learn about getting the most out of your Workers.
If you want to learn how to efficiently use your Workers, read the spoilers. If you don't, then you'll have to ask someone else to help you write your Worker actions when you're the UP player, as then you will be able to benefit from someone else's help in analyzing what to do with your Workers at what times and what you could do better to gain more efficiency for our empire. I might not be that person, since I'll be busy for the next little while after my turnset, but someone should be able to help you out. If you don't want to put in the effort read what's below in the spoiler comments, that's fine, but if you don't take the time to understand what's being done, then you really should have someone else plan out your turnset's Worker actions for you, so that you don't needlessly throw away what can often be 1/3rd of each Worker's potential productivity. Fair?
Feel free to ask all of the questions that you want, if something isn't clear.
ADDITIONAL NOTE: If you don't have much time at the moment, skip reading the spoilers for now and just see if you want to approve my PPP as written, minus what's in the spoilers. Later, before you play your next turnset, make a point of reading the info in the spoilers below. Cool?
Turn 92, 1700 BC
Research: Writing -> The Wheel
Delhi: The Oracle -> Library
Science: 0%
Trade with Zara: Open Borders
Confucian Missionary E GCow, then explores for this turn and the next, before going to Delhi
Worker 1: Ctrl + 1
Spoiler:
Ctrl + a number will tie the select unit (or units) to the corresponding number key. Thus, to make partial Worker actions easier to do, you can perform the Worker action (say, press "R" for a Road or else click on the Road icon), followed by pressing the corresponding key--"1" in this case--followed by pressing the Backspace "<--" key. That's the easiest way that I know of to perform a partial Worker action, which is a very important piece of knowledge in saving you time and frustration from having to scroll around the map just to click on each Worker in order to click on them again, just to be able to click on the "cancel current action" icon
, SE GForRiv (1S of Delhi), pChop
Worker 2: Ctrl + 2, 1SE PFor (on his way to Riverdale), pChop
Spoiler:
This Forest might not be chopped for a very long time, as it staying alive will help other nearby Forests to regrow. That said, we might as well get a "free" Worker turn out of this Worker on this turn. You will find that a lot of my Worker turns are optimized so that every turn possible, a Worker is creating an improvement and is losing no turns to "purely movement" turns, except in the case where a 3-movement-square has to be climbed, such as a Hills Forest square. I could equally put a partial Road on this square and could be convinced to change this action to be a partial Road, as we will probably want to save this Forest for a very long time. Building a Road on a Forst square that you don't want to chop is far better than building a Road on an adjacent square that can have a Forest regrow on it. Roads mess with Forest regrowth probabilities, but a Forest can't regrow if there already exists a Forest on a square, hence it is often "safe" to put a Road on a Forest that you don't plan to chop but instead plan to use as a "seeder Forest" for potential surrounding Forest regrowth. I'll leave this point as a pChop for now, so that my example still makes sense, but might edit it to a pRoad later before executing the PPP.
EDIT: Now my Forest-chopping decision makes a bit more sense... we don't have The Wheel yet. If we move two squares, we'll be outside of our cultural borders, costing us 1 Gold per Turn. So, rather than just ending our turn, we partially chopa Forest. Okay, it makes good sense now in terms of why I did what I did.
Warrior 3 1W PWheat
Warriors 1, 2, and 6 skip their turns
Turn 93, 1675 BC
Civic Change: Switch to the Slavery Civic
Delhi: Whip the Library
Delhi: Switch PHRiv Mine to GRiv Irr for growth. Growth is king.
Worker 1: pChop (1S of Delhi)
Spoiler:
pChop = "partial Chop," where you perform the Worker action and then cancel the Worker's orders (in this case, press "1" then backspace "<--" to cancel Worker 1's orders). Instead, I could probably just chop this Forest and forget about it, but I like to keep my Workers flexible. In this case it won't matter, as I'll want to complete the Forest chop this time, but later you'll see that I move Workers away before they are done their current task, in order to gain efficiency, such as to start building a Cottage on the turn that we learn Pottery. Had I not kept my Workers flexible in this way, then we'd delay the turn that we can start to work a Cottage, which is a shame because delaying your Cottages makes getting Pottery early on less valuable. As for this particular Forest, it cannot regrow, due to having no horizontally- or vertically-adjacent Forests, so it will be the site of our first Cottage.
Worker 2: Auto-move to Riverdale's GRiv square (1NW of Riverdale)
Spoiler:
Here was one of the rare times where I did not perform a Worker action on a turn. I could have partially built a Road along the way, but our cultural borders will create the Trade Route connection and I found that my Workers were too busy to actually complete a Road in the area until after The Pyramids were built. However, by staying outside of our borders in order to save a Worker turn on a partial Road, it would have cost us 1 Gold. I needed every Gold that I could squeeze out of our empire pre-Pottery, so I sacrificed one Worker turn here for the savings of 1 Gold. Normally, I'd advocate getting in a Worker action here anyway, because that's what Workers are for--completing Worker actions. However, this case is the exception to the rule, as you'll see if you open my test games: I only had 1 Gold in the coffers the time of learning Pottery, so I really was squeezing our empire dry, trying to gain every last penny that I could.
EDIT: Again, we don't have The Wheel, so building a Road is not an option. Would could be an option is to pChop a Forest "along the way," but as I said, doing so it outside of our cultural borders, so it costs us 1 Gold per Turn that I can barely afford--at the time of researching Pottery, I had 1 Gold surplus. I don't want to cut things any tighter and accidentally end up short 1 Gold, so this Worker action will stay as originally written.
Warrior 3: 1SW PHFor
Spoiler:
the northern PHFor square of the two PHFor squares; go there if it is empty of Barb units. Otherwise, retreat 1E back onto the PFor, with the knowledge that a Barb unit will help to fog-bust from that PHFor for now
Turn 94, 1650 BC
Delhi: Library -> Hindu Temple
SCIENCE: 100%
Worker 1: pChop (1S of Delhi)
Worker 2: Irrigate the GRiv square at Riverdale
Spoiler:
In this case, I knew that there would be absolutely nothing better to do with Worker 2 than to irrigate this farm, so I didn't bother to partially Irrigate on each turn.
Turn 95, 1625 BC
Worker 1: Chops into Delhi's Temple, which will be complete at the end of this turn
Riverdale @ Size 2: NW GRiv (the square that Worker 2 is irrigating) + SW PRiv
Spoiler:
Rather than working the default GFor square, we will work a River square that doesn't have a Forest, for the extra Commerce that we desperately need
Turn 96, 1600 BC
Delhi: Hindu Temple -> Worker
Delhi: 2 Corn, Copper, GHRiv Mine, PHRiv Min
Revolt: Switch to Confucianism
Spoiler:
Wow, we get the Organized Religion bonus for our whipping action in Riverdale, just by delaying the whip by 1 turn. That's a free 11 to 12 Hammers, while the cost was 0, since the River square's 1 Commerce paid for the 1 Gold in additional Maintenance that the City cost us for being at Size 2 for 1 extra turn before I whipped.
Riverdale: Whip the Monument
Worker 1: NE GForRiv, pChop
Spoiler:
we'll actually want to save this Forest, instead chopping the ones to its N and E, so that this Forest can hopefully help those other two to regrow. However, eventually, we may want to chop it, and either I will get a "free" Worker turn by partially chopping it or else I will get no Worker action for the turn by moving 2 squares across Forests. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a partial Chop into a Forest that we may want to chop somewhere in the future instead of just wasting a Worker's turn moving and not accomplishing any useful Worker action. Make sense?
Turn 97, 1575 BC
Riverdale: Monument -> Confucian Temple
Worker 1: N GForRiv, pChop
Spoiler:
1NE of Delhi--this Forest will be chopped for The Pyramids. It has good regrowth potential and if nothing regrows there, we will want the Forest gone for putting a Cottage there anyway, sometime after The Pyramids are chopped. Building a Cottage that we can work with a citizen trumps any "chance of regrowth" probabilities. However, if we end up having no need for an additional Cottage shortly after building The Pyramids (say, we are running 2 Priests and don't have enough citizens to work another Cottage), then this square could have a Forest regrow on it, giving us a second chop out of the square for free. Not all Forests will regrow, but the more "regrowth chances" that we set up for ourselves, the greater the likelihood that we WILL see a Forest regrow SOMEWHERE.
Turn 98, 1550 BC
Change Civics: Tribalism and Paganism
Spoiler:
Switching saves us 2 Gold per Turn, and getting Gold is pretty crucial at this point, while we aren't going to benefit from either Civic for a while anyway
Worker 1: NW PFor (2N of Delhi), pChop
Spoiler:
This Forest will also be chopped into The Pyramids, as it has a good chance of regrowing
Turn 99, 1525 BC
Research: The Wheel -> Pottery
Science: Stays at 100%, just in case it helps.
Spoiler:
Staying at 100% Science for one more turn after a tech is researched didn't help in the test game this time, but it is worth getting into this habit, for the extra Flask that it is often possible to achieve, if you still have enough Gold to run at 100% Science for one more turn. If you don't have enough Gold to do so, then yes, dropping back to 0% Science immediately is the best move, as Binary Science is the way to play in BTS.
Of course, you also shouldn't delay researching a tech by going at 100% Gold for one extra turn earlier on, just so that you can run 100% Science for one turn after a tech is researched, as doing so would delay the turn that you learn a tech just for the chance at 1 free Flask. The chance for a free Flask is not THAT valuable--for example, delaying Pottery by 1 turn would not be a worthwhile thing to do, in my eyes. However, if you have enough Gold sitting around ANYWAY, you might as well run at 100% Science for 1 turn AFTER you have completed a tech, if you have enough Gold to do so, as you can often get a free Flask when the overflow Flasks are added to the Flasks that you are able to research in 1 turn at 100% Science. It's just like when overflow Hammers that don't add up to equal amounts of 4 Hammers are added to one turn's worth of production that also isn't equally divisible by 4--in such a case, the overflow plus regular Hammers could combine to give you 1 free Hammer from Organized Religion. The point is similar for techs, but the percentage is a lot harder to calculate, as known tech pre-requisites and number of AI players that know the tech factor in, making each tech's percentage potentially different from the next tech's percentage gain, thus it's really hard to calculate if you'll get a free Flask or not in such a scenario, whereas in the Organized Religion case, it's easy to see if the excess remainders after dividing the overflow Hammers and base Hammers by 4 will also add up to a value that is 4 or greater, since you konw that "4" is always going to be the magic number for Hammers.
Delhi: Switch the PHRiv Mine to a Priest Specialist
Worker 1: NW P, NW DStone, pRoad
Spoiler:
We're on the way to help spawn-bust the west, in place of Warrior 6. We could have moved straight there, but this way, we get a "free" worker turn by building a Road after moving for 2 of our 3 movement points. The other way, we would use up 3 movement points in getting to our destination and wouldn't be able to perform a Worker action until next turn. If you aren't going to try for "free" Worker turns, then you aren't fully leveraging your Workers.
Turn 100, 1500 BC
Science: 0% EDIT: Worker 1: 1W Flood Plains (used to be 1NW G), Build a Road
Spoiler:
he covers for Warrior 6, who can help Warrior 3 in fog-busting
Turn 101, 1475 BC
Delhi: Worker 3 -> Warrior 8, Warrior 8 in 2 turns
Delhi: Work the GRiv Irr: 2 Corn, Copper, GHRiv Mine, GRiv Irr
SCIENCE: 100% EDIT: Convert Religion: No State Religion (for extra Culture in Delhi and Silverado, since we won't need to use Organized Religion for a while)
Worker 3: Ctrl + 3, NW GCopper, pRoad
Spoiler:
Here is an important gain for our empire. If we completely Road this square now, we will potentially lose 2 turns of Worker actions. Since I am 100% spawn-busting the west, north, north east, and south at this point (it's up to Zara to scout the land around his City/Cities), I feel confident that we do not need to hook up Copper now. Hooking it up now would cost us 2 Worker turns from the Worker moving 1N to the PFor to build a Road (not a loss of a Worker turn yet), but when he comes back south before the Road is complete to work on building the Cottage 1S of Delhi, he will lose a turn, unless he can partially build a Road on the GCopper for 1 turn, which WOULD save him a turn. Likewise, when he returns to the north of Delhi to finish this Road network towards Stone City, he would lose 1 Worker turn if the GCopper had had its Road complete, as he'd move from the GRiv Cot 1S of Delhi to the PFor 1N of the GCopper and would use up all of his movement points. If, instead, there is still 1 more turn left to complete the GCopper's Road, he can complete the Road on the GCopper square AFTER the Cottage is built, gaining him another "free" Worker turn, on his way to Roading the PFor square 1N of the GCopper.
If you're confused, then go and look at the saved game or open a screenshot and re-read my comment and hopefully you'll underestand. If not, ask, because this kind of Worker manipulation is important--over the span of about 6 turns, I just got 2 "free" Worker actions--that's 6 actions instead of 4 actions, or a 150% increase in Worker productivity.
Playing a test game so that you can plan out these Worker moves is very important, but even more important is stopping your Worker actions on almost every turn, so that you keep your Workers flexible, unless you are willing to run the test game in advance and plan out all of your Worker turns for the turnset like I did--only then should you be allowed to not have to "stop" your Workers on every turn, as you'll know in advance which turns they will not benefit from stopping and performing a different task.
Turn 102, 1450 BC
Silverado: Worker 4 -> Courthouse
Spoiler:
our Unit Cost value finally goes up to 1 Gold per Turn from having built this Worker, but since he'll soon start on a Cottage, he'll pay for himself and then all future Worker actions that he will be able to perform by building him at this point in time will be "free," at least up until the time that we would have built him in the future, when our Cities would have become large enough such that his cost would have been zero.
Worker 4: Ctrl + 4, NE GFor, pChop
Spoiler:
this Forest will eventually be used for chopping out Moai Statues, so we'll eventually chop it. Again, either we get the "free" Worker action or we lose it by moving for 100% of a Worker's turn, never to regain said Worker action. It's too bad that a Worker can't "save up" his movement across turns, but the game isn't designed that way, so we have to work within the parameters of the system.
Worker 3: N PFor, pRoad
Worker 2: S GForRiv, pChop
Spoiler:
We'll eventually chop this Forest into a Granary once we have switched into Organized Religion and Slavery, which is something that can be delayed until Delhi can also make use of those Civics. We pChop instead of fully chopping in order to keep our Worker flexible, and in this case, doing so pays off, as we can move to build a Cottage on the turn that Pottery comes in, while if I didn't cancel this Worker's actions each turn, we'd delay building the Cottage by 1 turn because BUFFY wakes up your partial-choppers when they are almost done and not "when Pottery is learned." In exchange for this 1 turn lost on the Cottage, we would have only gained 1 turn of partially-chopping a Forest that we won't completely chop for several turns--not a good tradeoff--essentially, since we have a citizen who can immediately work the Cottage, while a future Worker turn can be equally used to chop the Forest without delaying the chop. Laziness in this area (not stopping the Worker after each action) would have cost us 1 Gold by getting the Cottage 1 turn later than we should have gotten it
Turn 103, 1425 BC
Delhi: Warrior 8 -> Settler 4
Delhi: 2 Corn, Copper, GRiv Irr, GHRiv Mine, PHRiv Mine (0 Priests)
Warrior 8: Fortify in Delhi
Worker 4: NE GRiv (1S of Delhi), pRoad
Spoiler:
Since this Worker is still coming up from the south, there's not much better for him to do with his "free" Worker turn, than to partially build a Road here that won't be completed for some time. I'd rather not partially build a Road somewhere else, such as 1W of Delhi, as I SUSPECT but am not CERTAIN, that even a partial Road can mess with Forest regrowth probabilities, and we are hoping that a Forest will regrow 1W of Delhi, while this square, 1S of Delhi, cannot have regrowth occur on it, so a Road here won't hurt our Forest regrowth chances. Even if a Partial Road does NOT reduce the chance of Forest regrowth equal to a COMPLETED Road's effect, what it will do is put a unit on a square for one turn where we want a Forest to regrow, and a Forest won't regrow when a unit is standing on a square, so we will minimally disrupt the Forest regrowth probabilities by putting a Road 1W of Delhi. I can't see any really better square to work (the Grassland Corn River square 1SW of Delhi is already connected via a River, so it doesn't need a Road), while putting a partial Road 1S of Delhi lets me use the Worker's "free" action next turn on partially-chopping the Forest 1NE of that square. Had I isntead chosen to put the pRoad on the Corn, I'd be stuck with no adjacent useful square to chop on the following turn.
Worker 2: pChop (1W of Riverdale)
Worker 3: pRoad on the PFor, 1N of the GCopper
Spoiler:
By partially Roading, we can actually get to the south 1 turn earlier than if we'd just sat here completing the Road, earning us 1 free Commerce by completing our first Cottage 1 turn sooner than we could have if we'd just been lazy and hadn't stopped this Worker's current action before the end of each turn. It's not just free Worker actions, but free Resources from building the related improvements. If you really want, you could claim that we saved 4 Commerce over the course of the game, as we'll have 1 more turn with a Cottage, 1 more turn with a Hamlet, 1 more turn with a Village, and 1 more turn with a Town. If we were to run Free Speech (+2 Commerce per Town) before we got a Town on this square, then add another 2 Commerce, since we'd have the Town 1 turn faster. So, just by not being too lazy to stop our Workers' actions and consider moving them on to other tasks before the current one is complete, we have saved 1 Commerece immediately and between 4 and 6 Commerce throughout the course of the game. And that's just for one time of not being lazy. There are countless opportunities for your to gain efficiency from your Worker actions over doing actions that are similar to Worker movements and actions that automated Worker would do. For example, an automated Worker will not gain you "free" Worker actions while moving on the way to somewhere. Further, an automated worker will complete all Worker actions before moving on to the next action, which I have demonstrated can lead to inefficiencies in a Worker's potential. If you move your Workers without similar considerations, then you're doing equally as poor as if you were to automate them, while our team rule asks for us not to automate Workers--and we ask for people not to automate their Workers because using Worker automation leads to these inefficiencies.
With a bit of effort and thought on your part, instead of mind-numbing play, you can actually optimize a lot over what the Worker automation algorirthm will give you, greatly impacting our empire in a positive way!
Turn 104, 1400 BC
Delhi: Switch GIrr Riv to a Priest: 2 Corn, Copper, GHRiv Mine, PHRiv Mine, 1 Priest
Worker 2: pChop (1W of Riverdale) EDIT: Worker 4: N Delhi, N GCorn Riv, pRoad (used to be NE GForRiv, pChop, which was a Forest that we don't plan to chop for a while)
Worker 3: S GCopper, pRoad
Spoiler:
he is on his way to help build the Cottage 1S of Delhi, starting on the next turn
EDIT: Worker 1: W Flood Plains (W + W of the Stone), pRoad (still covering for Warrior 6)
Turn 105, 1375 BC
Research: Pottery -> Meditation
Science: 0%: 1 Gold + 18 Gold per Turn (at least in the test game that's what I had)
Riverdale: Queue a Granary before the Confucian Temple
Silverado: Queue a Granary before the Courthouse
Worker 2: NW GRiv, Cottage EDIT: Worker 1: pRoad (on the Flood Plains, W + W of the Stone, still covering for Warrior 6) EDIT: Worker 4: S Delhi, S GRiv, Cottage [used to be: moving back from the Forest to the NW of the GRiv square that we are going to Cottage: SW GRiv (1S of Delhi), Cottage]
Worker 3: SE Delhi, S GRiv, Cottage
Spoiler:
Here's where you see the gain from only partially building a Road on the Grassland Copper square and from not completing the Road on the PFor to the square 1N of it immediately--we get to the square 1S of Delhi 1 turn faster, earning is 1 more Gold and 2 turns worth of Worker actions. We also get two "free" Worker actions that would have otherwise been spent on movement between the PFor and 1S of Delhi GRiv locations. These small gains add up over time into very big and noticeable gains.
Well, I haven't read it in detail yet, but if it matches your test game and your test game did all the things you say it did, then it has my approval. If I get time tonight (which I might not) and you haven't played by then (I don't mind if you do) I'll run through it in the test save and see if there's any bit of it that can be tweaked. Otherwise though, good luck.
It's better than my games were doing. I had the pyramids a bit earlier, but I didn't have pottery. Turn 135 is a bit of a risk but still a turn we should expect to be able to get it by. Could someone remind me what dates The Great Wall and Stonehenge went again? If they weren't gone early (I don't know what early is mind you, particularly on Epic speed), then we should be pretty safe. I think it's definately worth getting pottery earlier for the slight risk. And I'm happy continuing to skip fishing.
One thing I will ask, I thought Beaurocracy was a backup plan to replace Philosophy in the case where we accidentally got a priest instead of a scientist? Now it's become the main target. I can certainly see the logic in doing so mind you, I just missed this shift in thinking somewhere, probably last week when I fell behind a bit. Is the plan to try for great scientists next? Philosophy and an Academy would both be nice, although beaurocracy is better than either of those.
One thing I will ask, I thought Beaurocracy was a backup plan to replace Philosophy in the case where we accidentally got a priest instead of a scientist? Now it's become the main target. I can certainly see the logic in doing so mind you, I just missed this shift in thinking somewhere, probably last week when I fell behind a bit. Is the plan to try for great scientists next? Philosophy and an Academy would both be nice, although beaurocracy is better than either of those.
Sure, great question! It's still not really finalized either way.
However, I was under the impression that the idea was to try for getting a Great Scientist from Riverdale at a 100% chance.
A possible problem is that we may not get the Scientists up in time. One possible option would be to chop the Library with 1 to 2 Forests after Math comes in. Still, is that pushing things too late?
We never really did get concrete dates for when Philosophy was expected to be learned by the AIs--we more tried to figure out Confucianism and Christianity dates.
Another equally valid option is to try for the Great Scientist in Delhi, once The Pyramids are in, using our 6-Science Representation-based Specialists.
A third option is to get an Academy with the Great Scientist and then manually research Philosophy, but I think that I would rather Lightbulb Philosophy or Lightbulb Civil Service if we get a Great Prophet and use Bureaucracy, since Bureaucracy is "stronger" than an Academy, as an Academy only gives a 50% bonus to Science in one City (usually the capitol), while Bureaucracy gives a 50% bonus to Commerce in that same City, meaning that we get extra Gold at a 100% Gold Rate.
If someone can produce some hard numbers of when Taoism (from being the first to Philosophy) could go, then we can work backwards to see if we can delay Philosophy for our 3rd Great Person or if we will feel that we will have to manually plug away at researching Philosophy before Alphabet, should we get a Great Prophet for our 2nd Great Person.
In my test game, I wasn't bothering to run Specialists until we got Representation, but nothing says that we can't run a Scientist or two earlier than we get The Pyramids.
So, there are a lot of options, but I won't have clear answers to give on the subject until we figure out when Philosophy might go. If we know that, then we can decide if we need to tweak the plan in order to run a Scientist or two earlier than the date that we are scheduled to complete The Pyramids.
Could someone remind me what dates The Great Wall and Stonehenge went again? If they weren't gone early (I don't know what early is mind you, particularly on Epic speed), then we should be pretty safe. I think it's definately worth getting pottery earlier for the slight risk. And I'm happy continuing to skip fishing.
Stonehenge could go as early as 2000 BC and The Great Wall could go shortly thereafter, with both of them being built almost positively by 1000 BC.
For The Pyramids, I would think that 500 BC is a pretty safe date, but would expect them to be gone by 200 BC almost for certain. We're aiming to get them before 600 BC (Turn 135 is 675 BC). Certainly, they aren't 100% secure, but with a bit of tweaking (perhaps whipping 2 people in the Granary, perhaps whipping 2 more into an Axeman for overflow Hammers shortly before completing The Wonder), we can probably chop The Pyramids with 4 Forests on the same turn.
Alternatively, if we can't get the number of Forests that need to be chopped below 5, we could certainly chop 1 Forest on the first turn and then aim to chop 4 Forests on the second turn, so that only 0 to 1 Forests would be "wasted" if we missed the Wonder.
Assuming havr and BLubmuz have no major objections, you could play once both give explicit approval or 24 hours from posting your PPP, which ever comes first.
If havr or BLubmuz have comments that need further discussion, I'm fine with taking the time to discuss them. This turnset sets up the next 2, so it's best that we all agree on our plan going forward.
Don't forget that 48 hours from now, Dhoomstriker will be away, so someone else would have to play his turnset.
Do you guys mind if I demand Clam from Zara? I would only beg at Pleased (or Friendly), as making a demand when an AI is Cautious or lower in attitude towards you is a VERY BAD THING to do, as each such demand incurs a PERMANENT negative Diplo modifier, regardless of your success or failure in the demand.
EDIT: That is, assuming that Confucianism spreads to him like it did in my test game, otherwise he's unlikely to be Pleased with us.
However, you're free to "beg" for help if you're at Pleased (or Friendly) without any Diplo consenquence. All that you do is reduce the chance of a successful begging for the next time, but that reduced chance slowly goes away over time.
I'm not sure of the exact game mechanics, but it's something like:
- If you demand something a second time (while at Pleased or above attitude, always, mind you--never demand something when the AI likes you less than Pleased), then your begging success chance goes down further, say -60% or something like taht
- Over time, your chance of successful begging goes up, say, 2% per turn or something like that
- If you demand again within 10 turns (I think that this amount is fixed across game speeds, but if not, it's 15 turns for Epic), then it's an automatic refusal
Note that I made those "-60%" and "2%" numbers up, but I've read (without the exact numbers) that that's how things work.
Anyway, all we stand to lose if we beg when at Pleased or better attitude is:
a) the previous thing that we begged for--so, if I beg for Clam and then 40 turns later we beg for 1 Gold per Turn, Zara is smart enough to cancel the Clam deal. EDIT: Note that there are no "take backs" if you begged for a tech or a lump sum of Gold. Alphabet and Currency are far enough away that I don't foresee our begging now ruining our chances for a successful begging action later, should we choose to try to do so again
b) the chance for a successful begging round goes down again, but as always, this invisible-from-the-interface number goes back up again over time EDIT: c) the ability to declare war on Zara (and for him to declare war on us) for 10 turns (or maybe 15 turns for Epic?). I wasn't planning on fighting him with Warriors, were you?
Also, by begging for the Clam, we'll have a good idea of when Zara feels "confident enough to take us on in a war," as he'll cancel the Clam deal at that time, so begging for it would act as an early warning sign that Zara might feel secure of his position enough to come after us.
Foreign Diplo Policy--Don't Call Us, and We Won't Call You! At least not until we're ready for you!
Spoiler:
As I outlined previously, our best time to go and contact another AI would be to find the Buddhist AI (or, if the religion has spread, any Buddhist AI) with a Galley that has a Settler and Warrior already in it.
Then, we'd want to settle an inland City on their continent, switch into No State Religion, Open Borders with them (butter them up with a tech first, if required), and then wait for Buddhism to spread. A Coastal City would have a higher chance of grabbing one of our domestic religions, so we'd want to keep spamming Cities if the only spots remaining are Coastal.
Until that time, we should avoid Opening Borders with anyone else, particularly any non-Buddhist AIs, whether they are religionless or whether they have grabbed one of our Religions.
If we find an AI that has Alphabet before we do, we should save the game and stop play and ask the team what to do about it.
If we haven't met all of an AI's neighbours, it can be VERY dangerous to trade techs with them, as their Worst Enemy is often their neighbour, and more importantly, they are often the Worst Enemy of their neighbour. Their neighbour might not end up liking us all that much when they find that we've been supplying their Worst Enemy with techs.
Even a Resource Trade can be a dangerous thing, until we've met such an AI's neighbours. We're going to have to take SOME risks though--we can't play all Isolatioist like Tokugawa plays, thus why we are trading Open Borders and Resources with Zara. However, we should limit the number of AIs that we trade with to just Zara until we can ascertain that the trading partner is not the Worst Enemy of any other AI.
The exception to this rule is if we have a goal, such as the first Buddhist AI that we find, if we have a Settler ready on a Galley, can be "buttered up," as our gambit is to get Buddhism and then spread it, so others should forgive us. But without Buddhism, others won't forgive our transgressions easily, thus we should have a relatively-Tokugawa-the-Isolationist-like attitude towards the AIs until and unless we have a chance to grab Buddhism in the deal.
If someone can produce some hard numbers of when Taoism (from being the first to Philosophy) could go, then we can work backwards to see if we can delay Philosophy for our 3rd Great Person or if we will feel that we will have to manually plug away at researching Philosophy before Alphabet, should we get a Great Prophet for our 2nd Great Person.
Here are some dates from Emperor-level BOTM games:
BOTM 26 Emperor, Standard Sized Map, Normal Game Speed
129 350 AD
o Taoism has been founded in a distant land!
127 300 AD
o Taoism has been founded in a distant land!
142 640 AD
o Taoism has been founded in a distant land!
142 640 AD
o Taoism has been founded in a distant land!
128 325 AD
o Taoism has been founded in a distant land!
139 580 AD
o Taoism has been founded in Gondar!
117 50 AD
o Taoism has been founded in Gondar!
BOTM 20 Emperor, Standard Sized Map, Normal Game Speed
158 960 AD
o Taoism has been founded in Eziqwaqweni!
165 1050 AD
o Taoism has been founded in a distant land!
113 50 BC
o Taoism has been founded in a distant land!
121 150 AD
o Taoism has been founded in Nongoma!
123 200 AD
o Taoism has been founded in Heliopolis!
141 620 AD
o Taoism has been founded in Spiro!
121 150 AD
o Taoism has been founded in a distant land!
Most dates are in the ADs, with 50 BC being the earliest from the sample set of results that I grabbed.
If we can't get 3 Great People by 50 BC, then we're not playing the Philosophical Trait correctly. Therefore, I'm going to push for our 2nd Great Person to be a Great Prophet from Delhi and for our third to come as a Great Scientist from Riverdale, with 1 to 2 Forest chops going into Riverdale's Library, as well as preferably overflow Hammers from the Confucian Temple via a 1-population-point whipping action.
We can also try for a 4th Great Person from the capitol as a Great Scientist, as a backup plan. Further, with The Pyramids and hopefully The Hanging Gardens both being built in Delhi, we'll almost certainly be able to get a "random" Great Engineer later in the game, closer to when we'll actually want to get it.
Trying out Dhoomstriker's formatting as I'm replying to a bunch of different things.
Begging for Clams
Spoiler:
If that's really how the begging mechanics work, then begging for clams sounds fine to me.
By the way, I forgot to say, but in one of my test games the cow deal auto-cancelled when (or at least shortly after) we took Zara's cows, but in another game it didn't. Maybe Zara had lost his other cows as well in that test game?
Foreign Diplo, Buddhism grabbing city
Spoiler:
It's really worth knowing roughly where, geographically, Buddhism was founded, to try and settle near there. Certainly it can't be too far from a civ that has Buddhism already, but if we can settle closer to the source that's even better.
Wonder dates
Spoiler:
So I'm gathering that the wall and the henge have yet to go in our actual game at all then? What year is it now in the test game? Are they already not super early by not having gone yet?
Great People
Spoiler:
Bulbing Civil Service seems like a good idea then. Can we really get a scientist from Riverdale before the capital overtakes it again though without running less specialists than we'd like to in the capital though? The capital will have 2 scientists worth of gpp just from wonders. Maybe The Great Library could be built in riverdale? Although it's such a tech detour to get it that it probably won't help until we're popping scientists to get education or some such. Still, with the Pyramids and the philosophical trait it's a great wonder to pick up.
Can we really get a scientist from Riverdale before the capital overtakes it again though without running less specialists than we'd like to in the capital though? The capital will have 2 scientists worth of gpp just from wonders.
The wonders generate 4 gpp each per turn for a Philosophical civ. A specialist gets 6 gpp per turn. So, if we really want to get a quick scientist at 100% odds, we should start working on great person 3 in Riverdale by hiring scientist ASAP while Delhi is still working of great person 2 (GPro). Two specialists will beat two wonders, but as you said, we will likely want to continue running specialists in Delhi for the Representation bonus.
By the way, I forgot to say, but in one of my test games the cow deal auto-cancelled when (or at least shortly after) we took Zara's cows, but in another game it didn't. Maybe Zara had lost his other cows as well in that test game?
It could be that a Barb unit pillaged his other Pasture. Since he only had 1 Pasture at the time, the deal would have been auto-cancelled. The great part about a test game is that you can see exactly what the Barbs are up to using the World Builder.
Zara is a lot less likely to cancel a "fair trade" deal, where we are giving him Corn for his only Cow, than he is to cancel our "one way trade" deal of his Clam.
Foreign Diplo, Buddhism-grabbing City
Spoiler:
It's really worth knowing roughly where, geographically, Buddhism was founded, to try and settle near there. Certainly it can't be too far from a civ that has Buddhism already, but if we can settle closer to the source that's even better.
An excellent point! If we can find at least one Buddhist AI, though, the founder is likely to be near to them. If we can't find any AI with Buddhism, then the founder is likely to be overseas.
Depending upon how many AIs we can contact, we may consider switching tracks by spreading a different religion manually to the AIs that we can find, if there are enough of them (3 in addition to Zara, none of them having Buddhism, would be my minimum requirement). If there are only 1 to 2 nearby AIs in addition to Zara and none of them are Buddhist, then we'll still want to wait for Buddhism as the world's religion (since at least 3 AIs will then be Buddhist), but we won't be getting Buddhism ourselves until Astronomy comes in in such a scenario. Not to worry, though, that's pretty much how my latest religious-beelining strategy worked: I grabbed the religion that the overseas' AIs had mostly all adopted, due to them not really having much else in the way of religious choice.
Wonder Dates
Spoiler:
So I'm gathering that the wall and the henge have yet to go in our actual game at all then? What year is it now in the test game? Are they already not super early by not having gone yet?
Zara is both Creative (likes to build Stonehenge) and Organized (likes to build The Great Wall) and with his aversion to settling, either one could be built by him or another AI at any time, now that we're in between the 2000 BC to 1000 BC time period. I'd rather speak of a time range that comes from a span of many games, rather than the result which we see in just one test game.
Yes, neither one (Stonehenge or The Great Wall) has gone "super early," which is a good sign for us getting The Pyramids, as often you'll see a Wonder like The Great Wall go really early due to an AI having Stone, followed up by that same AI pumping out an early Pyramids.
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