SGOTM 11 - Fifth Element

[Mitchum]

For most other techs, you'll probably want to learn the tech at the end of the turn that you Lightbulb it, so as to reduce the losses that are not likely to be offset by learning a Lightbulbed tech 1 turn sooner.[/SPOILER]

I actually tried to learn the tech at the end of my turn. I'm thinking that the real GPro bulbed more beakers than the one I added via WB since my empire was a bit bigger when I got him.

Since we'll be running mainly scientists on the next turn, the Bureaucracy bonus for hammers will be negligible and it will only provide a few extra coins (~ 5). I think it's best to learn it at the end of the turn.

I will test this in more detail when I'm putting together my PPP for the next turnset.

 

[unclethrill]

Just got my computer back up and running. I'll try to absorb the last few posts and run a couple tests tomorrow and get some sort of update to the PPP out for review.

 

[Irgy]

... However, you may need to run non-Binary Science for one turn, meaning that you'll probably lose a tiny bit of Science and Gold (1 of each, plus an extra possible loss on a Library's bonus for each Library that you own, plus, say, a bonus Flask lost from knowing a tech's pre-requisite, making for 3 Flasks and 1 Gold lost).

I thought that fractions are now accumulated between cities? In which case you can't lose more than 1 beaker and 1 gold to rounding. But more to the point, binary tech isn't necessarily strictly better than fractional tech.

Here's an example. I'm assuming the game rounds down, but there would be even more compelling examples if it rounds to the nearest. Consider a civ with 127 total commerce, and libraries everywhere. Running binary with, say, 7 turns of research and 3 turns of no research gives:
127x3=381 gold
158x7=1106 beakers
Running 70% for 10 turns gives:
38x10=380 gold
111x10=1110 beakers
This is 4 beakers profit for 1 gold lost, clearly an improvement.

The example is of course slightly construed, but the point is it's not always better to do binary just for rounding. The only way to really optimise rounding is to minimise the fraction lost every single turn, and it's just not worth the effort, except maybe in some corner cases where that 1 beaker hapens to just barely complete a tech.

 

[Irgy]

This is by choice. We're exchanging production for quick Civil Service and bulbing Philosophy.

I agree with this approach. It wasn't a criticism, I'm just pointing out that soon production is going to be the bottleneck as we've sacrificed it so much. My broad suggestion is we start to sacrifice some commerce now to catch back up in production, so that we can settle the rest of our land and use the land to catch our commerce back up.

We have no pressing needs in commerce for a while to come now, other than those we're persuing with Dehli's specialists.

I still don't see the advantage of running Caste System and an artist this early. I would wait until after the GPro is born. As you said, the tiles we're fighting over are all desert, so there is no rush.

I agree there's no rush, but 3 yield tiles barely make a profit, I didn't think it was worth growing to work more of them. The 4 beakers the artist provides are at least as good as any other tiles we might work. We certainly at least want to pop the borders to improve the wheat. Oasis and artist seems right to me. Caste System is no more expensive than Slavery - i.e. 1 gold per turn.

I don't see the need for another temple in Delhi. After we get our second GPro, we won't need another temple in Delhi for a long time, and only when we need it for happiness (we shouldn't be running priests anywhere once we've bulbed Civil Service). Building a missionary or two is a great idea though. We'll also want to build an aquaduct and the Hanging Gardens so that we can start working on that Great Engineer.

It gets the GP (or GE at 15% in my case) one turn sooner. Possibly not worth the ~36 raw hammers.


Another thought: If we get a scientist and bulb philosophy rather than civil service, we can run pacifism and get the great prophet for Civil Service a fair bit faster. If we get a prophet first and run beaurocracy, we then get little benefit from it because we're running nothing but scientists in Dehli anyway.

 

[Mitchum]

Another thought: If we get a scientist and bulb philosophy rather than civil service, we can run pacifism and get the great prophet for Civil Service a fair bit faster. If we get a prophet first and run beaurocracy, we then get little benefit from it because we're running nothing but scientists in Dehli anyway.

Interesting. We could try for a Great Scientist as our second great person. We could even run Caste System immediately along with Representation (you're doing it anyway to run an Artist, I was running Tibalism for 0 gpt), getting 6 beakers per scientist.

If we get a GPro, we bulb Caste System and we keep on with our scientists to hopefully get a GS third. If we get the Great Scientist, then we hire three Pacifism, Representation-powered priests and crank out a quick GPro.

The biggest problem with this approach is what do we research in this scenario? If we go Alphabet and get a GPro, it may take a few turns to finish Civil Service (it may actually only be 3 to 5 turns). If we go partial Civil Service and get a GS, we'll have to switch to Alphabet...

In any event, this is something to keep in mind for my turnset. It also means that whipping in Delhi should be avoided since we'd like the extra pop for an additional scientist, +6 beakers, a faster great person, and a higher chance for a GS...

One advantage of this is possible quicker Alphabet, which means we can start filling in the HUGE tech gaps we have at the moment, like Fishing, AH and Iron Working (we could be sitting near Iron in Riverdale...).

 

[Mitchum]

I just ran another test. This time, I tried for a scientist as our second great person. I did not whip in Delhi, so I was able to hire 3 scientist on T135 and a fourth on T141.

Option 1:

- I was researching Alphabet at 0% slider, but my scientist specialists were doing a good job of making progress.
- T142 - I got a GPro at 41% odds (50% GS)
- Bulbed 1557 beakers of Civil Service. Set research to 100%. C.S in 3 turns. Keep 4 scientists in Delhi.
T145 - Learned C.S and revolted to Bureaucracy (1 turn sooner than my test where I was trying for a GPro). Bureau bonus was +11.25 beakers and +2H (only the copper mine is being worked).
T149 - Learned Alphabet. Zara will trade IW, AH, Fishing and Hunting (he will give them all to us for Theology)

Option 2:
- I used WB to change my GPro to a GS
- T142 - I set the science slider to 100% to get Alphabet in 5. Put GS on ice for a few turns
- T144 - I finally finish my second temple in Delhi, so I can hire a second priest.
- T147 - Learn Alphabet. Bulb Philosophy (Taoism in Riverdale). Great person #3 in 12 turns running Pacifism and 2 priests (~80% GPro)

Here are the comparisons for the no whip options (try for GPro and get it (my earlier test) / try for GS get GPro / try for GS and get it)

Pyramids: T135 for all
CS and Bureaucracy: T146 / T145 / T159 (if we get GPro)
Alphabet: T152 / T149 / T147
Philosophy: T160 (if GS) / T156 (if GS) / T147

I really think that trying for a GS and getting a GPro was the best option. I really don't like running priests, and this option allowed us to run Great Scientists, which were generating an awful lot of beakers. The downside of this option is that it took forever to build anything since none of the mined hills were being worked. The worst option in my mind was trying for a GS and actually getting one...

So, the most reliable and predictable play which provides the second best option (in my opinion) is to try for a GPro first and a GS second.

Attached are some saves so that you can compare the three options (you can find my first test in an earlier post).

 

[Mitchum]

There are six city locations that we've discussed in the past, as marked on the attached screen shots:

1. GP Farm - 2 Fish, Cow, Pigs
2. Clams - 3 Clams in the north
3. Crab - Crab, FP and shared Fish with GP Farm
4. Incense - 2 Incense, Fish
5. Rice - 3.5 FP, 0.5 Marble
6. Silver Whale - 2 Silver, Whale

Now, we should be able to clearly talk about locations and settling order.

A picture is worth a thousand words

Spoiler :

 

[unclethrill]

All,

I am so sorry but I am completely snowed under in schoolwork and work work on top of a two year old with pneumonia and being sick myself. I have been trying to squeeze in some test games for my TS but can't seem to find a spare second lately. If you want to skip over me and let Mitchum take this TS, that's fine with me. I'm not saying we have to do that but it is likely to be a few more days before I get time to run tests and post a new PPP.

 

[havr]

I want to apologize too for not contributing too much lately. I am trying to follow the discussions, but I have a lot of work so I am not able to contribute too much. I will try to help more in the future.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Binary Science Beats Non-binary-Science

Spoiler :

I thought that fractions are now accumulated between cities? In which case you can't lose more than 1 beaker and 1 gold to rounding. But more to the point, binary tech isn't necessarily strictly better than fractional tech.

I did not calculate more than 1 Flask and 1 Gold lost to totalled fractional losses, but I do expect that in all but the very best case, where all fractional values across all Cities happen to magically add up together to be even integers, you WILL lose both 1 Flask and 1 Gold.

Unfortunately, there is no rounding. There are only Floor calls, which are the equivalent of truncating fractions, instead of rounding them.

Also, the other problem is that Library bonuses are added per City, not overall in the empire, even if every City has a Library in it. That's the power of using (or poor programming forcing us to use) Binary Science. You will thus have additional losses the more multiplier buildings (such as Libraries) that you have spread across different Cities, as I'll demonstrate below.

Here's an example. I'm assuming the game rounds down, but there would be even more compelling examples if it rounds to the nearest. Consider a civ with 127 total commerce, and libraries everywhere. Running binary with, say, 7 turns of research and 3 turns of no research gives:
127x3=381 gold
158x7=1106 beakers
Running 70% for 10 turns gives:
38x10=380 gold
111x10=1110 beakers
This is 4 beakers profit for 1 gold lost, clearly an improvement.

Unfortunately, as I said before, the BTS programmers did not code things this way. They went Floor-happy. A Floor is the equivalent of "always rounding down," and they do so at multiple stages in the overall Flask calculation.

Let's give you an example back. If a City makes somewhere between 8 to 11 Commerce and it has a Library, then if the Science Rate stays at 70%, the City only makes to 5.6 to 7.7 Flasks.

The Library bonus will be applied to 5.6 to 7.7 Flasks. The Library bonus gives us 25% more Flasks, but since a Floor operation is involved in calculating the Library bonus Flasks, unless you obtain a multiple of 4 Flasks, you will not get any bonus for any Flasks that exceed a multiple of 4 Flasks but do not exceed the next multiple of 4 Flasks. Thus, I trust that you believe that if you make 4 to 7.99 Flasks, you will get 1 bonus Flask and if you make 8 to 11.99 Flasks, you will get 2 bonus Flasks.

In this example, neither 5.6 nor 7.7 exceeds 8 Flasks. So, you will only get 1 bonus Flask from the Library for each turn at 70% Science, due to the first round of Floors denying you more of a bonus. Specifically, the extra Flasks of 5.6 - 4 = 1.6 Flasks to 7.7 - 4 = 3.7 Flasks DO NOT benefit from the Library one bit.

So, after 10 turns at 70% Science rate and 8 Commerce, you will get:
5.6 Base Flasks + 1 Library bonus = 6.6 Flasks from this City * 10 turns = 66 Flasks from this City

Instead, using Binary Science, after 3 turns at 0% Science and 7 turns at 100% Science, as well as 8 Commerce, you will get:
0 Base Flasks + 0 Library bonus = 0 Flasks from this City * 3 turns = 0 Flasks
8 Base Flasks + 2 Library bonus = 10 Flasks from this City * 7 turns = 70 Flasks

70 Flasks > 66 Flasks; Binary Science wins in a big way

Now, what makes this example even worse is that we weren't really keeping the fractional values across turns. So, when we made 6.6 Flasks in a turn, we were actually only making 6 Flasks per turn, so the REAL comparison is:
70 Flasks (Binary Science) > 60 Flasks (non-Binary-Science).

But, I will be as "nice as possible" here.
Let's say that we have a second City which makes us the n + 0.4 fractional value of Flasks per turn at 70% Science, where n is an integer value. So, we'll say that you had a second City that had no Library but made 2 Flasks per turn. Let's recalculate:


So, after 10 turns at 70% Science rate and 8 Commerce, you will get:
City 1:
5.6 Base Flasks + 1 Library bonus = 6.6 Flasks from this City
City 2:
1.4 Base Flasks from City 2.
Total:
6.6 + 1.4 = 8 * 10 turns = 80 Flasks.

Instead, using Binary Science, after 3 turns at 0% Science and 7 turns at 100% Science, as well as 8 Commerce, you will get:
City 1:
0 Base Flasks + 0 Library bonus = 0 Flasks from this City for 3 turns
8 Base Flasks + 2 Library bonus = 10 Flasks from this City for 7 turns
City 2:
0 Base Flasks for 3 turns
2 Base Flasks for 7 turns
Total:
(0 + 0) * 3 turns = 0 Flasks
(10 + 2) * 7 turns = 12 * 7 = 84 Flasks

84 Flasks (Binary) > 80 Flasks (non-Binary)


In the other half of this example, with the Library bonus being at its weakest for the Binary Science side of things, we have:
After 10 turns at 70% Science rate and 11 Commerce, you will get:
7.7 Base Flasks + 1 Library bonus = 8.7 Flasks from this City * 10 turns = 87 Flasks from this City

Instead, using Binary Science, after 3 turns at 0% Science and 7 turns at 100% Science, as well as 11 Commerce, you will get:
0 Base Flasks + 0 Library bonus = 0 Flasks from this City * 3 turns = 0 Flasks
11 Base Flasks + 2 Library bonus = 13 Flasks from this City * 7 turns = 91 Flasks

91 Flasks > 87 Flasks; Binary Science wins in a big way

Again, I lied in your favour, as really you'd only made 8 Flasks per turn, not 8.7 Flasks per turn, in the non-Binary-Science example, giving you real values of:
91 Flasks > 80 Flasks; Binary Science wins in a big way

But, we can pretend that you had another City which made 9 Commerce per turn without a Library. At 70% Science, that would yield 6.3 Flasks per turn, giving us:
Non-Binary-Science example: 8.7 + 6.3 = 15 Flasks per turn * 10 turns = 150 Flasks
Binary-Science example: 13 + 9 = 22 Flasks per turn * 7 turns = 154 Flasks

154 > 150 Flasks: Binary Science wins again. So, even being really nice to your example and making it so that you don't get any fractional losses, Binary Science will still win.


Your example would work if all of the Commerce came from one City. However, that is not how you described your example to be set up--you said that the Commerce came from multiple Cities. If that were true, your listed numbers would not be accurate--I'd love it if the code was programmed closer to the way that you described, but unfortunately, it is not coded that way.

In your example, Flasks are not totalled across Cities and then have the Library bonuses applied to them; instead, Flasks have their Library bonuses calculated City-by-City. You are far more likely, on average, to see more Cities missing out on the bonus Flasks from Libraries when running at 70% Science on than by running at 100%.

Yes, it is possible to construct an example where non-Binary Science can beat Binary Science, but ONLY if you are not micromanaging your Binary Science empire such that (as in your example), your Cities have 4n + 3 Flasks, where n can be any integer value and the "+3 Flasks" portion does not benefit at all from the Library bonus. If you are able to somehow get all Cities to be closer to "4m" (equal to 4m or slightly larger than 4m, but not slightly less than 4m--the opposite of the TV gameshow called The Price is Right) where m <= n, you can theoretically beat Binary Science, but again, that edge case is most likely going to happen if you were very poorly micromanagaing your Cities in the Binary Science case and suddenly planned to perform even more detailed micro calculations for the non-Binary-Science case PLUS got lucky enough that fractional losses worked out in your favour. In a real game, you won't really see this situation beyond an empire of 3 Cities, and even then, it's rare to see Binary Science losing out; and even then, you'd win out with Binary Science if you micromanaged your Cities as well as you would be required to micromanage them in order to beat Binary Science in the non-micromanagement case.

Thus, barring sheer luck, you will not beat Binary Science in practice using non-Binary-Science, as micromanaging while running Binary Science will be superior to micromanaging while not running Binary Science in all but a very few cases, and if you are micromanaging to that level, you'll spot those cases and leverage them anyway.

 

[Mitchum]

All,

I am so sorry but I am completely snowed under in schoolwork and work work on top of a two year old with pneumonia and being sick myself. I have been trying to squeeze in some test games for my TS but can't seem to find a spare second lately. If you want to skip over me and let Mitchum take this TS, that's fine with me. I'm not saying we have to do that but it is likely to be a few more days before I get time to run tests and post a new PPP.

I'm fine to swap with you if that's what the team wants. However, we need a bit of direction from the team. We have four test games so far:

1. Irgy - Whip Temple - Pyramids on T133
2. Mitch1 - Try for GPro, get it - Pyramids on T135 - Civil Service on T146 - Alphabet on T152 - Philosophy T160
3. Mitch2 - Try for GS, get GPro - Pyramids on T135 - CS on T145 - Alphabet on T149 - Philosophy on T156
4. Mitch3 - Try for GS and get it - Pyramids on T135 - CS on T159 - Alphabet on T147 - Philosophy on T147

I may try the whip temple example tomorrow and play it forward to T150 or so to see how it does at generating a GPro and then a later GS.

Does anyone have any strong feelings about any of these games, either for or against?

 

[Mitchum]

Binary Science Beats Non-binary-Science

I ran a test game a while back during an early turn set, and binary science beat non-binary science by quite a bit with only 2 cities. Dhoomstriker had this to say.

Dhoomstriker didn't even mention the rounding associated with knowing the pre-requisit tech and/or knowing an AI that already knows the tech you're researching so that you can piggy-back off of him.

 

[BLubmuz]

Just back from a nice show in Verona's Arena
Mitch, since UT asks to do so, if you can swap, better.

I'll comment later on the cities placements.
The GP farm and Clams are quite "forced", i'm not conviced of Rice and Crabs.
Rice risks to have too much overlap with Stony and Clams, so i suggest to build only one city on the river, taking crabs in 3rd border, just to have one more resource.

But i think we can go with GP farm first and Clams second and decide later for the other spots.

I would also like to see if that island (if it's an island) has some resource and in case we can consider that area, too.

Good job all with testing, i think i can contribute again next week, even from Monday if you give me some direction on how i can help.

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm fine to swap with you if that's what the team wants. However, we need a bit of direction from the team. We have four test games so far:

1. Irgy - Whip Temple - Pyramids on T133
2. Mitch1 - Try for GPro, get it - Pyramids on T135 - Civil Service on T146 - Alphabet on T152 - Philosophy T160
3. Mitch2 - Try for GS, get GPro - Pyramids on T135 - CS on T145 - Alphabet on T149 - Philosophy on T156
4. Mitch3 - Try for GS and get it - Pyramids on T125 - CS on T159 - Alphabet on T147 - Philosophy on T147

I may try the whip temple example tomorrow and play it forward to T150 or so to see how it does at generating a GPro and then a later GS.

Does anyone have any strong feelings about any of these games, either for or against?

No strong feelings, but some doubt, suspecting typos , mainly in #4.
On premise that CS is not that great for a Capital running 3-4 specialists and working commerce-poor tiles, the risk in running Scientists in Dehli is to never been able to pop one or at least not at the desired time. If we can run a couple in Riverdale we can be guaranteed on the result.
#3 seems solid, # 4 i suspect some typo.
#1 has too few info, at least in your post, #2 seems inferior.

 

[Irgy]

I can hopefully fill out the details of using my save and trying for either GPro or GSci later tonight.

Note that we don't get to choose between #3 and #4, the game does it for us. The scenario we're considering is a 50-50 average of the two.

Another thing to keep in mind is the risk and cost of getting the wrong third (second of the two we're looking at here) great-person. The original proposed benefit of trying for a GS first was the reduced risk of getting the wrong third great person.

As for the city locations, I like Mitchum's suggestions. My only modification would be to settle the 'rice' city 1S of rice. This has the following benefits:
* Picks up an extra currently unworked grassland to the southeast, and only loses a bunch of tiles which overlap with other cities anyway (other than 1 coast tile).
* It becomes riverside.
* With Civil Service so close, the rice will be irrigated soon, so the food works out basically the same.

 

[Irgy]

Ok, tried them out.

1. Irgy1 (Whip Temple) - GPro first - Pyramids on T133 - CS on T144(bulbed 143), Alphabet on T150, Philosophy T156
2A. Irgy2 (Whip Temple) - GSci first, get it - Pyramids on T133 - CS on T156, Alphabet on T146, Philosophy T146
2B. Irgy2 (Whip Temple) - GSci first, get GPro - Pyramids on T133 - CS on T145 - Alphabet on T149 - Philosophy on T155

3. Mitch1 - Try for GPro, get it - Pyramids on T135 - Civil Service on T146 - Alphabet on T152 - Philosophy T160
4A. Mitch2 - Try for GS, get GPro - Pyramids on T135 - CS on T145 - Alphabet on T149 - Philosophy on T156
4B. Mitch3 - Try for GS and get it - Pyramids on T135 - CS on T159 - Alphabet on T147 - Philosophy on T147

The saves are a bit of a mess, I only played them through to the turn when the interface told me when the last thing I was waiting for came through. I can post them if you like though.

I noticed another benefit of getting the GSci first, which is that if we get it we can switch out of Caste System and into Slavery to whip some granaries and whatever.

 

[Mitchum]

Note that we don't get to choose between #3 and #4, the game does it for us. The scenario we're considering is a 50-50 average of the two.

Agreed, we don't get to choose. I was just pointing out that by running the test of trying for a Great Scientist at about even odds of getting a GPro, one option (getting a GPro) is good while the other (actually getting a GS) appears to be the worst of all options.

As for the city locations, I like Mitchum's suggestions. My only modification would be to settle the 'rice' city 1S of rice. This has the following benefits:
* Picks up an extra currently unworked grassland to the southeast, and only loses a bunch of tiles which overlap with other cities anyway (other than 1 coast tile).
* It becomes riverside.
* With Civil Service so close, the rice will be irrigated soon, so the food works out basically the same.

Consider settling on the Rice gives the capital 3F, 1H, 1C. If we farm the Flood plains (4F, 1C) our city at size one gets 7F, 1H, 2C.

If instead, we settle on the FP as you have suggested, our city center gets 2F, 1H, 1C and an irrigated, farmed rice (via CS) gives 5F. This city as size 1 gets 7F, 1H, 1C. So we're 1C worse off when settling on the flood plains.

If we instead cottage the flood plains, we get 6F, 1H, 2C. As the cottage grows, the power of the flood plains tile gets higher and higer, making it much better than the rice tile.

So I would contend that the Rice tile by itself (even irrigated) is weaker than the flood plains tile.

So, the pros of settling 1 S on the flood plains are:

1. One extra grassland tile
2. Fresh water for for +2 health (may not matter since this city won't get super big)

The cons are:

1. Lose a flood plains tile in place of a rice tile.

Regarding overlap, you lessen overlap with the northern cities but increase overlap with Crab.

I'm not arguing one way or the other, but I wanted to point out that settling on the Rice isn't as bad as it seems.

 

[BLubmuz]

Agreed, we don't get to choose. I was just pointing out that by running the test of trying for a Great Scientist at about even odds of getting a GPro, one option (getting a GPro) is good while the other (actually getting a GS) appears to be the worst of all options.

The GS first is weaker, but since we have problems in generating them from Dehli, can be the best event we can have

Consider settling on the Rice gives the capital 3F, 1H, 1C. If we farm the Flood plains (4F, 1C) our city at size one gets 7F, 1H, 2C.
Regarding overlap, you lessen overlap with the northern cities but increase overlap with Crab.

I'm not arguing one way or the other, but I wanted to point out that settling on the Rice isn't as bad as it seems.

Please, try to forget the Crabs and think to settle on the coast S of the river. Then, we can avoid to irrigate the FP just to gain 1F from the rice or irrigate and cottage S. THere's the habit that a FP has to be cottaged, but this seems one of the rare cases when it's better act differently.

Also, i can't see the potential of the Crabs city: it overlaps with Rice and the GP Farm, forcing Rice to overlap with Clams. I say let's forget that city. But we have the choice to settle on the land we just discovered if we can find room or more resources.

About your tests, the one i like best is Irgy #2. Provided we can have the same luck.
But, aside luck it looks better fot the earlier 'mids and Alpha.

 

[BLubmuz]

Mitch, can we consider you UP?
I haven't seen any complaint to this, so please confirm. (or not)

 

[Mitchum]

Thanks for running these tests. This gives us something to compare.

1. Irgy1 (Whip Temple) - GPro first - Pyramids on T133 - CS on T144(bulbed 143), Alphabet on T150, Philosophy T156
2A. Irgy2 (Whip Temple) - GSci first, get it - Pyramids on T133 - CS on T156, Alphabet on T146, Philosophy T146
2B. Irgy2 (Whip Temple) - GSci first, get GPro - Pyramids on T133 - CS on T145 - Alphabet on T149 - Philosophy on T155

3. Mitch1 - Try for GPro, get it - Pyramids on T135 - Civil Service on T146 - Alphabet on T152 - Philosophy T160
4A. Mitch2 - Try for GS, get GPro - Pyramids on T135 - CS on T145 - Alphabet on T149 - Philosophy on T156
4B. Mitch3 - Try for GS and get it - Pyramids on T135 - CS on T159 - Alphabet on T147 - Philosophy on T147

I’ve put this into table form to make the comparison a bit easier.

One thing to point out is that in my Mitch4 tests, I was researching Alphabet at 0% science, so my only beakers came from scientists. I did this to save gold in the event that I got a GPro rather than a GS. That way, I could quickly research the balance of Civil Service after partially bulbing it. So, my GS sat on ice for 5 or 6 turns. What were you researching and at what level in your Irgy2 test?

What’s very interesting to me is that having a larger city and being able to run more specialists did not seem to help in Mitch4 over Irgy2. In Mitch4, when Delhi was at size 8 I ran 3 scientists while growing Delhi to 9 pops, and then hired the 4th one. Since you’re Delhi is only at size 7 on T133 IIRC, did you hire 4 scientists right away, stunting growth at size 7? Maybe we should also compare the size and growth of Delhi during the test since the option with a larger Delhi will have more potential to crank out settlers, commerce, more great people, etc.

In all cases, I settled on the Rice on T147. If you settled sooner or closer, our science rates would be a bit different, but probably not enough to really matter.

One of the key dates in my mind is the Alphabet date. I'm really nervous about not being able to improve all of our resources (cows, pigs, seafood, dear) or knowing where hidden resources are (horses, iron).

I noticed another benefit of getting the GSci first, which is that if we get it we can switch out of Caste System and into Slavery to whip some granaries and whatever.

Another benefit is that Delhi isn’t stunted at zero production and low growth for so many turns. A couple of scientists can be put to the mines, allowing us to start pumping out missionaries, settlers, aquaduct -> Hanging Gardens.