SGOTM 11 - klarius

[Northern Pike]

Yes, I've still got it. RL nonsense has kept me from playing, but it seems absurd to ask for a skip when we're back to a three-man rotation. I'm reasonably sure now that I'll be able to post within 36 hours or so.

 

[Northern Pike]

340 AD, beginning of turn

 

[Northern Pike]

250 (1): Our army disposes of an Arabian spearman (1-0).

Umfolozi and New Ulundi harbour --> barracks.


260 (2): Our forces around Abydos are in the middle of a cloud of fifteen Egyptian and Arabian units. We destroy five, including an Eg knight (6-0).

We pillage Memphis's iron mountain with knights landed by sea.

We repel the attack of an Eg archer (7-0).


270 (3): Seventeen enemy units around Abydos now. We eliminate four (11-0).

We raze Pi-Ramesses, held by two spearman and an LB (14-0). Between captures and razing we gain six slaves.

We capture two Eg workers next to Hieraconpolis, again landing by sea.

The French have Gunpowder, so we get it in a peace/gpt deal, then redeclare. We have two saltpetre sources already hooked up.

Chemistry due in eight turns at 80% research.


280 (4): Nineteen enemy units around Abydos. We smite six (20-0).

We take the hill town of Hieraconpolis, held by two spearmen. We lose a knight (22-1).

We found Spiceburgh near the ruins of Pi-Ram--not in an ideal location, but this is faster than waiting to build a jungle road.

The French galleys finally declare their intentions, as one of them lands two LB on Zimbabwe's goat mountain.

Mpondo FORBIDDEN PALACE --> knight.


290 (5): We have enough knights in the area, and we hack down the two French LB on the goat mountain (24-1).

Thirteen enemy units around Abydos. We slay two (26-1).

We resist the attack of an Arabian archer (27-1).

Umfolozi barracks --> knight.


300 (6): Eleven enemies around Abydos, including a Korean LB. We ride two down, but lose an MDI attacking an archer (29-2).

Umtata barracks --> knight, Neu Zimbabwe harbour --> galley.


310 (7): We raze Memphis, held by three pikemen, with our knight army doing most of the work (32-2).

An Eg knight, two Eg archers, and an Eg swordsman die attacking Hieraconpolis (36-2).

Swazi aqueduct --> knight.


320 (8): We trample two enemy units in the Hieraconpolis-Spiceburgh area (38-2).

One of our knights loses four straight rounds to an attacking Eg knight (38-3).

Our GA ends.

The first Ottoman forces we've seen in this war appear.


330 (9): We found Tokay on the ruins of Memphis, claiming wines.

We eliminate an Arabian archer around Abydos, but lose a knight in the same area (39-4).

Our knight army liquidates an Eg knight (40-4).

Three Ottoman horsemen from a potentially troublesome stack commit suicide attacking Spiceburgh, fortunately (43-4).

Zimbabwe HEROIC EPIC --> knight.


340 (10): We're at a clear decision point, so I won't play this turn.

Thirteen elite victories this round, three of them defensive, didn't produce a Great Leader.

 

[Northern Pike]

Now that we have wines, we've gained all the obvious benefits the Egyptian campaign can yield, and we have to decide whether we're going to push on any further there. Normally I'd prefer to do so, since indecisive campaigns lead to more work in the end. But with the Russians, Ottomans, and Koreans now all showing up in force on our long flank from Abydos to Tokay, it might be hard to make fast progress through the Egyptian core while also holding what we've already taken. So I wouldn't object to our rushing a temple in Tokay, making peace with Cleo's bloc, and then returning to war with the Asians. The redeployment southeast would only take about three turns, since our coastal road network is almost complete and we have hardly any slow units at the front.

We'll finish a road in the jungle next to Hieraconpolis at the end of this turn, which will give us access to wines.

Since this is the beginning of the turn, I'll mention that there's a French MDI next to Ulundi, an Arabian spearman adjacent to Abydos, an Eg galley near Asyut, and an Eg spearman next to Hangchow.

One of the two French galleys near Isa should still have units embarked.

We have no WW yet from any of our wars.

 

[Northern Pike]

Coastal conquests:

 

[klarius]

Looks good so far .

I got it, but will wait a day so everybody gets a chance to comment.
I would love to make further gains in Egypt, but that may really be difficult with everybody coming to our coastal stretch.
I think I rather try another idea.
That's peace now via Arabs at the same time getting Arabs versus Korea (Arabs are so backwards that we should be able to manage this with techs).
Stay at war with Korea, but don't trigger the alliance. Instead make RoP with India and Japan and set up for a free RoP rape (triggering alliance when troops are in position).
Also I think a little diplomacy on the other continent should be possible. I will build embassies in America and England and see what's possible.

 

[Northern Pike]

I like the RoP-rape idea a lot. It would certainly be better than trying to make normal progress in Asia with Jumbos, AC, and potentially Samurai picking off our knights.

Since the Pyramids are the real prize in that area, and we don't have enough units for an ideal RoP-rape, perhaps the actual stab should be directed strictly at Japan. Delhi, as a capital on a hill, will be a nightmare objective in any case until we have cav.

 

[Offa]

I like the idea of a ROP rape too. We are certainly very stretched in the war against Egypt. The pyramids would be really useful. The Great wall clearly isn't helpful any more as it should expire soon.

Have you looked at the qsc scores: not especially good for us, but nothing disastrous?

Some of the other teams have made extremely slow starts. I suspect they will be following our territory graph etc with interest. Perhaps we should post our saves in the thread instead of submitting them formally?

 

[Ronald]

I could not look at the file since I'm travelling in China at the moment but support the idea of the ROP rape in Japan to get the pyramids.

@ Offa: I think we should still submit our files formally.

 

[klarius]

The save
Summary:
Took one more town from Egypt. Got another leader.
Moved majority of our forces into Japan.
Took a town from Germany.
MT due in 6 turns.

Turn log:
Turn 0 340:
Look around and kill a few units (mainly give elites some workout, before eventually make peace).
No losses except an elite archer.
Get a leader with a knight on the pike near Spiceburgh -> army.
Decide to keep the war on egypt on for one more turn at least.
The russian stacks (detected another one with knights and MDI), can do no harm IBT.
Make embassies with England and America.

Move curragh out of American waters. Ally England against France for 23gpt.
Declare on America and move curragh in again.
Rush temple in Tokay to secure our wines.

IBT:
A lot of enemies run around.
England declares on us.
Germany and Vikings declare on England.
Chemistry->metallurgy

Turn 1 350:
Build Neu Ulundi to speed up movement.
Capture Giza, redlining first army. Kill what's easily killable on the egypt front.
Several units would be exposed now - time for peace.
Make peace with Arabia coupled with alliance against Korea and France. Costs currency + republic + 51gpt.
Sell them feudalism for 39gpt (all they have). So they reserved 12 gpt from us.
I don't think this will last for 20 turns so that's not that bad.
But we should look to stay at war with Korea, especially so we can later make peace at any time.
I sell chemistry to russia for theology (yes, we don't need it, but it's free as I want to make the other trade anyway), furs, 17gpt and 214g.
Education and printing press are well known in the world.
I trade printing press+11gpt from Egypt for chemistry.
Sell PP to India for 3gpt+21g. And to China for 17g.
Make an alliance with Germany against England and America for free.


Turn 2 360:
Not much. Healing. Moving.
RoP with India and Japan, but not China to have an easy war declaration.

Turn 3 370:
Build Neu Bapedi.
Rush temple in Giza.
Make RoP with Germany.

IBT:
Some Koreans show up. Note french galleys use sea tiles. They must have astronomy.

Turn 4 380:
A chinese spear is blocking our choke. So we cannot get reinforcements this way currently.
Kill 2 Korean longbows.

IBT:
Finally all Asians declare on Arabs. Better late than never.
Hopefully the war last long enough that Japan gets it's ancient cav away.

Turn 5 390:
Build another fishing village in the choke to be able to boot the choke blocker (hopefully next turn).
Move troops. Think about a small German adventure.

Turn 6 400:
China unblocked the choke and seems to be moving out our (new) territory.

Turn 7 410:
Further moving. Nice thing is Japanese/India move out a lot troops towards Arabia.
Not so nice - they block roads by that.
Land some troops in Germany

IBT:
The first intercontinental war within the AI - Germany signs on Egypt against America.
A french galley attacks one of ours and loses.
Metallurgy researched -> MT. But we are pretty out of money.

Turn 8 420:
Moving. Looking around for trades. Nothing really good around.
Dial research down. MT will be 8-10 turns.

IBT: France lands 2 MDI adjacent to Zimbabwe.
A lot of war declarations.

Turn 9 430:
Knight retreats barely scratching MDI. Have to scrape together everything to defend Zimbabwe.
Move curragh into french waters to get war declaration from Germany.

IBT:
Germany and Scandinavia declare. Lose elite Impi to MDI at Zimbabwe.
Wonder cascade with KT and Sistene and now about everybody is building Cops.

Turn 10 440:
Capture Leipzig from 2 spears - no losses. Probably we will have to give it up later.
Troops arrive in Japan. But I don't think we will be able to do more than take two cities. Too many troops near our undefended cities.
Kill one of the 2 french MDI

Turn 11 450:
Intombe riots. Forgot the german citizen.
Kill the offending MDI.
Don't do much else, so most troops have still movement.

Hand-off notes:
We have quite some troops in Japan, but I doubt that it's good for more than 2-3 cities.
Also a lot Indians and Japs are near our weak defended cities (they didn't make it into Arabia by now).
Still I would soon start the war by declaring on China and attack.
Note we can have peace anytime with Korea, so we could even have a 1 turn war w/o need to defend anything.
That's probably even a good idea to just take Kyoto and Osaka and make immediate peace.
Then wait for MT stop research and upgrade knights.
The settler heading for Amatikulu is supposed to ship over to Germany and replace Leipzig 1 tile se.
If it fits we could gift Leipzig to Japan and raze it. But we could also just abandon it directly.

 

[Offa]

I have it, but again won't play just yet until I have a clear feel for the plan.

China built Leo's, unfortunately in the same spot as the Great Library so we won't benefit from the TOA if we capture it. This does make capturing Leo's soon very tempting. I would have thought a very quick war v Japan to capture ivory and the Pyramids, then peace while we position for Leo's. We could disconnect iron and get a lot of horsemen ready for upgrades fairly soon after getting MT if all went well, and then we could really steam over the AI.

I still don't really understand the Alliances. I think this is the idea: If we declare v China, then the Japs will declare v us as we have troops on their land, but the Indians should leave us in peace. Hopefully the AI won't regard this as a ROP rape. Then we could make peace with Korea almost immediately and this would put as at peace with the whole block.

I see the French are doing well. London is a French town (!), and they have a
German town. A powerful AI is not too bad for us though. Our German expedition is going to be tough to keep going with so many calls on our troops on the home continent.

 

[Northern Pike]

I'm glad we've gotten started in Germany.

I'd like to narrow the focus of the RoP-rape even further, and only try for Kyoto on the first turn. Osaka would be a real loss to the Japanese, but OTOH it would do nothing in particular for us, so I don't think that objective justifies our splitting up the only two units--our knight armies--which can attack Samurai in full-sized cities with good chances. Knights don't retreat against Sams, to state the obvious.

Ideally, we should set up so that on the turn of the stab we can pillage the five road tiles indicated on the screenshot with knights, most of which could then shelter under armies or on the mountain. This way no enemy unit before cav will be able to enter Kyoto unless it starts on our cultural border, and we'll be able to leave the city ungarrisoned when that seems safest. Then, with the situation in Kyoto relatively stable, we can advance on other cities as seems appropriate under cover of an army. I'd be inclined to make Tokyo our second target (as keeping our position most compact), pick off two of the size-six coastal cities or possibly three, and only then risk the attack on Osaka.

Even if we decide on a one-turn war and immediate peace via Korea, I'd still either attack Kyoto only, or attack Kyoto with both armies and possibly a size-six town or two with knights.

We should bear in mind that there are furs under Tokyo.

BTW we need to road the desert tile 2 NW of Giza, so that the eventual sneak attack on Thebes doesn't cross a river.

China built Leo's, unfortunately in the same spot as the Great Library so we won't benefit from the TOA if we capture it. This does make capturing Leo's soon very tempting. I would have thought a very quick war v Japan to capture ivory and the Pyramids, then peace while we position for Leo's. We could disconnect iron and get a lot of horsemen ready for upgrades fairly soon after getting MT if all went well, and then we could really steam over the AI.

This is a very difficult decision. Just holding the ToA for five turns, with the proper timing, would do most of the work of filling in the other continent for us--and of course we need 75% of the world's territory, not 67%. Sacrificing that benefit would not be a trivial thing. I slightly incline towards the Leonardo/upgrade strategy anyway, since our productive base is so modest, but the whole team should comment.

 

[klarius]

It was only on the last turn that Samurai appeared on top in Kyoto and Osaka. Before there were vet pikes on top.
So one army per city should get the samurai away.
Still we don't have ample forces. I thought to split the knights about 9 for Kyoto and 4 for Osaka, reflecting that the AI has typically about double the defenders in the capital.
If we want Leo's for upgrade, we should only hold it during the upgrade and gift it away before the interturn. I really don't like to throw away the ToA chance.

The alliances:
When we attack (or pillage in) China after declaring war, both India and Japan will declare on us.
The idea is really to keep the RoP rep intact, so we can use this again.
If we do a classical Rop rape the same will happen we will be at war with the whole bloc, but we also lost Rop reputation.

 

[klarius]

Thinking some more over night, it might be really best to only take Kyoto now with both armies.
But we should wait a couple of turns, so Indian and Japanese units can advance more towards Arabia.
Get a lot units into Kyoto in the hope to get enough resistance eliminated in the safe turn, so we can nicely starve it w/o garrison.

Maybe we should even move a bunch of knights back to take Delhi. They only had spears when I passed by, so even city on hill is not such a big problem.

Another note:
Making peace with Korea will let Arabia declare on us (alliance was in peace treaty). It would be nicer, if we can wait until Arabia breaks the alliance from their side, because I think this will give us war happiness from them. But still the option is there to make immediate peace with Korea in an emergency.

 

[Offa]

If we capture Leo and the Library it will scupper the TOA but is likely to allow us a faster conquest and benefit our economy by connecting up overseas luxuries. How much would it cost to rush enough temples to make up for this?

If the Library really only comes into effect at the end of a turn, we could capture the city with Leo and the Library, upgrade horsemen and then give the city away before the end of the turn ready to capture again, and repeat as required.

 

[klarius]

If we capture Leo and the Library it will scupper the TOA but is likely to allow us a faster conquest and benefit our economy by connecting up overseas luxuries. How much would it cost to rush enough temples to make up for this?

We will not be able to sustain more than rushing maybe 2 temples per turn. In the end we will hopefully capture more cities per turn.
Additional luxes are nice, but not really necessary with 5 available on our continent.
Another benefit of ToA is that the towns don't have to come out of resistance to start generating culture.
And the cities can later rush settlers instead, which are typically also needed to fill in the loose AI empires, even with one cultural expansion.

If the Library really only comes into effect at the end of a turn, we could capture the city with Leo and the Library, upgrade horsemen and then give the city away before the end of the turn ready to capture again, and repeat as required.

The Library definitely only gives techs IBT. So capturing it, upgrading then gift the town away is for sure possible.

 

[Northern Pike]

The Library definitely only gives techs IBT. So capturing it, upgrading then gift the town away is for sure possible.

This sounds like a wise compromise. On reflection, I don't think this is a situation in which the upgrade strategy would really shine, because (with our nest egg spent on getting to MT) our ratio of gold to shields isn't high enough. Even with Leonardo, and with research at zero, we'd only be able to afford about two horseman --> cav upgrades per turn. That's not a lot higher than we could achieve with a blend of ordinary production and cash-rushing. So it's still worth doing if we can, but not at the cost of the ToA.

 

[Offa]

I have made a tiny start in that I have shifted a few units round in Japan. I quite like the idea of attacking Toyko as well as Kyoto, but unfortunately there is a Jap worker blocking the road there.

It is too late to play now (I am afraid I can't really play into the early hours and live anymore). Therefore I won't get to finish until sometime this weekend.

The Ottomans will give a lot of cash and gpt for metallurgy (they would throw in education as well ). Should we take their offer up?

 

[Northern Pike]

The Ottomans will give a lot of cash and gpt for metallurgy (they would throw in education as well ). Should we take their offer up?

We cannot acquire Education! It kills the ToA!

Without checking the save, I'd assume we should take the Ottomans' money for Metallurgy, unless Klarius has some devious reason not to do so. They're probably going to have Sips by the time we attack them whatever we do.

Don't worry about not playing until the weekend. I can play again on Monday at the earliest.

 

[Offa]

Yes, education was a joke, I have no intention of learning it . I meant do we want the rest of the deal: around 350g and 76gpt?