SGOTM 11 - Smurkz

[McLMan]

I think it's going to be very crowded. It might be a good idea to let the Settler be our 5th unit.

 

[Niklas]

And by 5th unit you mean instead of the granary, or after?

 

[ControlFreak]

I believe in the SirPleb philosophy of food. If there is a neighboring city site that could make more food than a granary, build the settler first. In our case with the cow (+3fpt) means the granary brings us from 7 turns to 4 turns per growth. Thats 10 food per 4 turns or 2.5fpt. If there's a neighboring city site that can do better than 3fpt, we're better off building the setter first.

With the poor food condition here, a granary will be necessary in at least one of the core towns. But it may not be best in the capitol. The capitol looks to be decent on sheilds, lets get the early settler out, look for higher food sites and invest the 60s into a barracks and two impis (or veteran warriors to be upgraded).

Niklas brings up a good point about unit costs. We can build only two units and then the third will cost 1gpt until we settle another town. It will wait until my turnset, but I'm thinking build two scouts and suffer the -1gpt while the settler walks to a better site.

We should use one scout to explore enough locally to know where the settler should go, but it should be the third scout, not the first two. Those should head 1) North or West 2) East or whichever way #1 didn't go. The third scout (which may be a warrior) can circle the local area and then head off in the direction the other two didn't. There is no South from where we are on the map.

And yes...NO RIOTS. (By the way, with only one mountain to road over and the path behind it flatland leading to the AI, roading the gems earlier may not be the worst idea after the three bonus tiles are improved. Especially if that's the direction the catapults must travel.)

 

[McLMan]

And by 5th unit you mean instead of the granary, or after?

It might be necessary before the granary to secure a prime spot. With this being an emperor game we might be able to get the granary in first. But it really depends on what's around us.

 

[Ansar]

What I heard about building granaries was:

If you have a food bonus, a settler can come before a granary.

 

[CommandoBob]

Preflight discussion. Move scout 1N, screenshot, save game, post and discuss.

01 4000 BC

Open game. Move scout 1N. Alt + PrintScreen. Save.

You mean Northwest, right...?

Uh...right.

CB, are you familiar with the "standard practice"? I.e., ideally you only move horizontal or vertical, never diagonal, to uncover the max number of tiles.

Thanks for reminding me; it's been a long time since I've done any exploring.

@CB: DON'T let our capitol riot! We're playing emperor, that means one free content citizen only. Work those sliders at every turn!

Got it.

Learn Alphabet, max science.
Build orders: scout, scout, scout (which will finish in the next turnset)

Open game.
Worker SW to cow.
Settler SE to forest.
Water is salty.
​

[IBT]

02 3950 BC

Found SmurkzBabwe, work the cow, grow in 7, scout in 5.
Begin to mine the cow.
Scout01 NW, N onto mountain.
Alphabet at 100%. (50 turns)
​

[IBT]

03 3900 BC

Scout01 W to plains, N to mountain.
​

[IBT]

04 3850 BC

Scout01 NW, from mountain to desert, NE onto mountain.
​

[IBT]

05 3800 BC

Scout01 N, from mountain to desert, SE back onto another mountain.
​

[IBT]

06 3750 BC

Scout01 E from mountain to desert, S onto another mountain.

3750 BC Exploring North

Have established that the area due north of 'Babwe is mountain and desert, surronded by salt water.
Scout02 finishes soon, it will investigate east of 'Babwe.
Will send Scout01 NW across the desert and norhtwards.
​

[IBT]
SmurkzBabwe scout (02) -> scout, 5 turns.

07 3700 BC

Scout02 E onto mountain due east of Babwe.
Scout01 N onto desert, then W onto mountain.
​

[IBT]

08 3650 BC

Scout01 N onto desert, W onto desert.
Worker01, mining complete, makes road.
Scout02 E onto grassland, E again onto grassland.
​

[IBT]

09 3600 BC

Scout02 E onto plains, S onto plains.
Scout01 N onto desert, NE (only move) onto desert.
Babwe has grown to size 2, raise the happy slider to 20% to stay out of unrest.
​

[IBT]
SmurkzBabwe scout (03) -> scout, 2 turns. Build subject to change on the next turnset.

10 3550 BC

Scout03 W from the capital onto mined grassland, W onto mountain.
Scout02 S onto grassland, S onto bonus grassland.
Scout01 E onto desert, NE (only move) onto desert.
​

[IBT]

Alphabet 42 turns.
10 gold +0 (0.8.2)

And the save is >>HERE<<.

 

[CommandoBob]

Not a lot to report. We are building a third scout in SmurkzBabwe, but it may need to be changed. No barbs, no contacts, no riots.

World as we know it 3550 BC:
3550 BC North

3550 BC South

3550 BC West

Map Reading
North looks barren, but we will have to fill it (or so it appears) for Domination. Don't expect to have to fight for desert.

East looks promising, lots of green, maybe a settler pump out this direction.

West looks bad, but it is too early to really tell. Need to cross the mountains to know for sure.

 

[CommandoBob]

Almost forgot.

• CommandoBob - just played
• ControlFreak - UP
• zyxy - on deck
• dojoboy
• Niklas
• McLMan

 

[Niklas]

This is not what I expected! With 13 opponents I would have expected to run into at least 2 already. But clearly this is a Gyathaar map, nothing standard about it. Either we are completely on our own and need MM to meet anyone. Or (which I find more likely judging from the lie of the land) we are separated from the others by one or more desert land bridges of the kind the first scout is out trekking on. It wouldn't surprise me if we hit El Dorado at the end of it, and (one set of) our opponents living happily together in luxorious abundance.

Anyway, CB you did what could be expected, well done!
However, you did play one turn too short since the first turn is 0 (check the graphs). And the first turnset is normally 20 turns since all turns are so short, so you could have played on another 10 beyond that. In any case I'm glad you stopped where you did, since we clearly need discussion here. Do you want to play the remainder of your set as well?

An observation, we have fresh water on the plains NW of Babwe. By placing a town 2N we can irrigate through into the Bowl of Babwe if we want to. I think we may well, in particular if there is no other fresh water source SE.
EDIT: Or is this (irrigating through town on hills) no longer possible in C3C? Or was that vanilla where it didn't work? Can't remember...

I (almost) definitely want to see a granary next. There are no killer sites for a second town visible (yet), rather lots of semi-nice land that we want to fill up. Building the granary now seems the best long-term investment to me. There is the chance that Scout03 could find a perfect site in the SW, we will know in a few turns and can react accordingly.

The only reason for not building a granary that I can see is if we want to build a warrior MP first. As noted before it delays the granary build by one turn, is cost neutral while Babwe is >1 pop, and will be a safeguard against any barbies that might show up. I think we should, and I have a scheme that lets us road the BG before mining and still get it on turn 21.

 

[zyxy]

Well played!

I too think that 3 scouts is probably enough, so we can switch the current build to granary or settler. Perhaps granary is best if we really don't see any opponents nearby.

Btw, does it pay off to research alpha at max? It costs 150 beakers, so we need to do more than 3 bpt to outperform a min run. Currently we have gathered 23 beakers in 8 turns, and we make 2 bpt, and without rivers it is unlikely we'll get above 3 bpt before we settle another town - every new citizen has to pay lux tax, and will not be working a roaded tile initially.
If we switch to granary now, it will take about 10 turns to complete. Another 4 or 5 turns to get a settler out, and a few more turns to actually settle brings us to turn 25 or so. If we estimate about 2.5 bpt (rather generous I think) then at max science we'll get to 23 + 2.5 * 17 = 66 beakers (rounded up). To outperform a min run we need to gather more than 84 beakers in the remaining 25 turns, that is, more than about 3.5 bpt. To research alpha in, say, 40 turns total, we would need to get about 84/15 = 5.5 bpt (rounded down). Not impossible, especially because a second town will provide some free unit support, but still a tall order. Perhaps a minrun is a more efficient use of our funds. (And maybe someone would like to whip up a spreadsheet to calculate this?)

 

[CommandoBob]

I can take the next ten turns this evening.

Point 1

With the poor food condition here, a granary will be necessary in at least one of the core towns. But it may not be best in the capitol. The capitol looks to be decent on sheilds, lets get the early settler out, look for higher food sites and invest the 60s into a barracks and two impis (or veteran warriors to be upgraded).

I (almost) definitely want to see a granary next. There are no killer sites for a second town visible (yet), rather lots of semi-nice land that we want to fill up. Building the granary now seems the best long-term investment to me. There is the chance that Scout03 could find a perfect site in the SW, we will know in a few turns and can react accordingly.

We have some division of thought on this. I can start a settler, since it won't finish in the next 10 turns, and then we can reexamine the build order.

Point 2
Worker01 will complete the road this IBT. Next task - mine the BG. Roading the gems is tempting for happy citizens, but we need the shields right now.

Point 3
I notice (now) that the only luxuries in sight are the gems on the mountains.

Point 4

Btw, does it pay off to research alpha at max?

It may not, but what are we going to do with the gold? We can't spend money to make units (and will never be able to do that if we stay in Despotism). We might be able to buy a tech with our gold. Or we might have to pay our gold as tribute to some two-bit lout with an aggresive attitude and couple of spears for offense (but wait, we're the Zulus this time).

It is not that I disagree, but with this start and our goals, having a large amount of cash seems a bit counter-productive. I just don't understand how that helps us. Please explain.

 

[zyxy]

We have some division of thought on this. I can start a settler, since it won't finish in the next 10 turns, and then we can reexamine the build order.

I'm not so sure. We are doing 5 spt, so a settler takes only 6 turns? Considering that we need a bit more exploration near the capital, don't seem to have "friends" nearby, and don't want Zimbabwe to drop back to size 1, I would tend to a granary.

Point 2
Worker01 will complete the road this IBT. Next task - mine the BG. Roading the gems is tempting for happy citizens, but we need the shields right now.

Niklas seems to have a plan for roading this tile first... If we want to go max on science, I would certainly consider it, provided it does not delay the granary too much.

It may not, but what are we going to do with the gold? We can't spend money to make units (and will never be able to do that if we stay in Despotism). We might be able to buy a tech with our gold. Or we might have to pay our gold as tribute to some two-bit lout with an aggresive attitude and couple of spears for offense (but wait, we're the Zulus this time).

Gold can be used for upgrades, or to pay the upkeep of that granary. Don't worry, there'll be a use . That being said, I am not certain that we should go min science. And your "tribute" argument is a valid one.

 

[Niklas]

We have some division of thought on this. I can start a settler, since it won't finish in the next 10 turns, and then we can reexamine the build order.

No, the settler would finish in 6 turns so we don't have the luxury of waiting. We could wait 5 more turns on deciding, but since I want to see a warrior built first I'd like to make the decision here and now. I'm also not sure we have a division of thought, CF's words were given with a lot less intel than what we have now. No food rich locations nearby, and no close opponents, that's my reasons for going for a (warrior and) granary first.

Worker01 will complete the road this IBT. Next task - mine the BG. Roading the gems is tempting for happy citizens, but we need the shields right now.

Road it first, and then mine it. Question is what to do next. According to my scheme, given below, we won't have time to mine a grass before we need it, but we could road it for one extra commerce. Or we could go road the gems. Or we could road towards our next settlement, whereever that will be. This will be when it's time for you to hand off though, so we can wait with the decision.

It may not, but what are we going to do with the gold? We can't spend money to make units (and will never be able to do that if we stay in Despotism). We might be able to buy a tech with our gold. Or we might have to pay our gold as tribute to some two-bit lout with an aggresive attitude and couple of spears for offense (but wait, we're the Zulus this time).

Yep, we are ! The main reason to have a larger treasury is that it can fund our research after Alphabet. Our granary is going to start costing us money, and later on all our barracks, and units. To put it simply, by delaying Alphabet to 50 turns we'd be able to speed up later research since we can run at a deficit at a higher tech rate.

I think we should definitely switch to min research, good spot zyxy. We're unlikely to get Alphabet any faster than ~45 turns, and a 5 turn delay to save 100 gp seems more than reasonable to me.

Here's the spreadsheet:

As you can see we'd have the granary built on the IBT between 20 and 21, and then grow to size 4 between 21 and 22, perfectly timed. We can build a settler in 4 after the granary to be out and moving on turn 25. Settling will then be a few turns later, so zyxy's count is a bit optimistic.

Does it seem reasonable to you? If you see any errors in it, please point them out.

EDIT: Crosspost with zyxy. I'd just like to point out that tributes are not something that bother me very much, especially not so since we seem to be isolated. What would they do with their spears, rattle them and shout angry words from far far away?

 

[ControlFreak]

No arguement from me on the granary first. You pulled my comment out of context. It was preceeded by a discussion of having at least +3fpt somewhere else to settle. So far that's not the case so the granary is a better option.

I don't remember the list of civs off hand at the moment, but it looks like we could be alone on a very desolate island. Researching Alpha at min now and then writing at max seems to be the smarter way to go. Plus we could buy alphabet if we meet someone with it.

I'm almost willing to bet that the SW mountain range ends in a pennisula with no access to AI. The same for the SE. Our best chance at finding someone else is to the NE. I would turn Scout 02 around immediate and head that way. I would also consider running Scout 03 down to finish exploring the SE while we build the granary/settler. Doing it that way delays the SE exploration in favor of getting to the NE sooner. Scout 01 will probably find a dead end in a turn or two and can come back down to explore the SW.

The warrior is a must build and should stay at home for happiness and defense. (Could explore a little of the SW if the scouts are on watch for barbs.)

 

[Niklas]

I'd say it's settled then, warrior followed by granary as per my spreadsheet above.

Since we intend a min run on science, it would be possible to use the warrior as a limited scout, but every turn he's away from home costs 1 gp due to the higher lux rate.

I'm almost willing to bet that the SW mountain range ends in a pennisula with no access to AI. The same for the SE. Our best chance at finding someone else is to the NE. I would turn Scout 02 around immediate and head that way. I would also consider running Scout 03 down to finish exploring the SE while we build the granary/settler. Doing it that way delays the SE exploration in favor of getting to the NE sooner. Scout 01 will probably find a dead end in a turn or two and can come back down to explore the SW.

Hmm. Judging from the minimap I think you may be right about the peninsulae, that there are no exits from them that lead to any AI. I wouldn't hold it for certain though, there could be more desert bridges in different directions.

I'm willing to bet you are wrong about either NE or NW though . I don't see why Gyathaar would throw out a long stretch of sand into the ocean and then end it with a cul-de-sac. I think Scout01 is likely to run into someone at the end of that peninsula. And if you're right and he runs into a dead end, then I wouldn't be surprised if they were all dead ends, and that we need MM to get to anyone.

I would take Scout02 NW-W next turn to see all the land close to Babwe where we might consider settling. After that I agree we can turn him around and head to the sand NE, I'm expecting another long bridge. Scout03 I would bring down S onto the peninsula, it could just be that there's some great land there that would warrant a settler before the granary after all. And if there is, we want to know in the next 5 turns, so we couldn't wait for Scout01 to return.

 

[McLMan]

With the cruddy land I agree with warrior -> granary -> settler

Min run on alphabet makes a lot of sense.

I agree with CF's opinions on scouting.

 

[dojoboy]

If gold can be made and not losing any time on alpha, let's do it. I like the gold for running deficits and buying techs. I tend to rtrade/buy techs heavily anyway.

 

[ControlFreak]

If gold can be made and not losing any time on alpha, let's do it. I like the gold for running deficits and buying techs. I tend to rtrade/buy techs heavily anyway.

I'd be cautious about trading techs heavily. The more tech trades, the quicker research gets. I think we're best served by slow research in a war game. With quick techs we have to slog through the advent of pikes/muskets basicallly waiting until cavalry show up. Keeping the AI in the AA pits our swordsmen against spears and archers (keeping iron out of their hands with impis). Researching more, means paying higher sheild costs for units (Medis and Knights).

My fog gazing guesses that if Scout 02 heads NW, he might not be able to go west and can continue N. Anyway, we need to stop reinforcing bad scouting habits. ALWAYS SCOUT ON THE FOUR COMPASS POINTS. Scout 02 should go W, then N. We won't missout on much not making it to the NW,W tile since the coastal view will give us an extended look.

Scout 03 should go S. Then E,S unless a passable route past the Mountains reveals itself. The E,S move would put him on the coast and give a decent view across the lake. Then he can decide how to contine SW or finish maping the SE (back tracking a little).

 

[CommandoBob]

Real life has called this evening and every evening until Saturday.

I am going to have to pass these turns to ControlFreak.

 

[ControlFreak]

@CB - Hopefully not a sign of things to come.

I'll get it and look at it tonight. Probably play tomorrow or wednesday at the latest.

Short Term Strategy:

• Follow Niklas' spreadsheet.
• Explore the NE, hopefully finding some AI.
• Research Alpha at min.
• Don't let capitol riot.
• Build warrior and keep him near home.
• Get enough info to start a long term strategy.

I'm really torn about where to send the worker after mining the BG. Roading the Luxury is looking really nice if we are going to send our first settler up to the mini lake/plains. If I had been thinking, we could have colonized the gems for a free road and replaced the worker a turn later (dropping our pop by one). It's too late now that our culture will cover it next turn.

Does RCP work in ?
It looks like one of the best cities would be W,W,NW at RCP4 on the mini lake/coast with the plains for easy irrigating. There's also RCP4 towns to the E and SE that get one BG but neither get the sheep. I would have loved to do an ICS style RCP3 for this variant, but most RCP3 towns are mountains.

Time for your last minute thoughts tonight. Tomorrow we ride!