SGOTM 11 - Team Newbie

[PaperBeetle]

I've been crunching numbers and coming up with nothing useful. It does seem that this location has more production than it needs, rather less food than we would like, and almost no commerce.
As moving towards the goat doesn't get the granary built significantly earlier, I think it is most important to start producing food immediately; I am going to settle on the spot.
Here is the kind of build orderr I was thinking of:

... an eight turn combo factory, but it isn't very efficient. The coast can often be worked instead of the forest in order to transfer wasted shields to much needed commerce. Similarly, the goat can often be passed up in favour of commerce from roaded grasses. Still, it's a bit scrappy.

 

[PaperBeetle]

further more,
do we need to make sure these by asking in maintain thread?
1.all group contact each other at 0 turn so our POT and WC is useless for trade.
2.when we meet our first rival, we won't automatically get contact with their friends. If we dow them, I presume their buddies do join the war, getting a "free" contact with us in the process.
3.A1 in Group A can sign MPP with B1 in group B,so A and B merged..
by the way,
on tech,write is need to establish embassy, which need war alliance, so we maybe begin at alphabet MAX.

I have created a test scenario with the editor to find out how these MPPs work. In the editor, and the diplomacy screen they are called Locked Alliances, but in practice they act as locked MPPs, and indeed when you attack a civ and its friends join a dogpile, the message the military advisor comes up with refers to MPPs.

So the effects of these locked MPPs...
- They know their pact-buddies from the start of the game, and will trade all the first-tier techs around virtually immediately.
- When we meet a rival, we do not get contact with their pact-buddies.
- When we attack a civ, their pact-buddies spring to their defense, and they do then appear on our diplomacy screen.

Now I don't know what to research first. I'm tempted by Wheel, as only one bloc will have it, so it is the only first tier tech which might be tradeable. The other options are Alphabet and min research. Any thoughts?

 

[Bucephalus]

Now I don't know what to research first. I'm tempted by Wheel, as only one bloc will have it, so it is the only first tier tech which might be tradeable. The other options are Alphabet and min research. Any thoughts?

Being expansionist, hopefully we'll be getting a good few techs from Goody Huts; when planning our path along the tech tree, we should bear in mind that you can't get a tech from a hut if you are currently researching it.

How many of our rivals start with Alpha? I think with so many 'trading-blocs' in place, we'll find it difficult to trade our way out of the first tier techs. We might have to self-research to something more tradeable, and Alpha is the key to most of those. So, I lean towards researching Alpha, and hope to pick up the rest of the lower tier techs from huts.

 

[Wardancer]

Wardancer checking in.

I've just returned from my holiday and have already been bullied on to the thread by our esteemed vice captain. Unfortunately I'm a little too tired to work through the various conundrums that this game has thrown up right now but will give some thought to them tomorrow.

Now I'm off for some sleep (well at least after a few games of dawn of war on-line first).

 

[archphoenix]

paperbettle is a speadsheet specialist, let me learn..
does it is ok to waste a worker turn after calc?
I recommend move worker W or NW to see whether something interesting.
IMO, if to be expansionist, I perfer waste 1-2 turn settling to wait scout reporting. does it hinder much waste a turn after calc?

edit:
does it worthy wasting a worker turn to see a moo on grassland;or a fresh water;or a fresh water and wine on grass land;or a wheat,etc?
and does it it worthy wasting a settler turn to these thing?

 

[PaperBeetle]

Good thinking. With so much wastage in the system, a lost worker turn can easily be made up for. I will send the worker to look over the mountains. But food bonuses to the east; it would be unlikely that we could place a town to span the moo and anything over there, so I wouldn't hold the settler up for it.

Worker NW... the sand beyond the mountains is desert, not floods. In fact it doesn't look like a very promising area, except there is more water there! I can't see if it fresh or salty, but if it is fresh, we could irrigate through a town on the hill NNE, to bring water to the moo.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Okay, I have a new spreadsheet. This is a bit unusual - I don't road the moo for a long while, and go chop a granary in time for growth to size 3.

 

[archphoenix]

@paperbettle
how to write such a spreadsheet? when fill the entry, what factor decide the build sequence?
archphoenix alived time: (9:00-22:00,GTM+8),that is (19:00-2:00,GTM-6)

 

[PaperBeetle]

@paperbettle
how to write such a spreadsheet? when fill the entry, what factor decide the build sequence?
archphoenix alived time: (9:00-22:00,GTM+8),that is (19:00-2:00,GTM-6)

Ah so many options... if only I could decide on a build sequence! Normally, I would start with the worker moves; have the worker improve all the most powerful tiles in the most efficient order. From that I work out how much food and shields the town generates by working the best tiles, maxing food first and shields second. Then comes the build order. Normally I would start with a couple of units for military police or exploration, and then work out when is best to build the granary. Ideally it should come when the town has more than 10 food.
So that is the first half. The second half of the spreadsheet is finding a regular pattern for the settler factory, and working out how to get from the building of the granary to the start of the settler cycle. The problem with this location seems to be the cycle of the combo factory; always the wrong number of shields to build anything efficiently.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Halfway there!
3500bc, and the borders have just popped revealing good news: we have fresh water to the northwest.

We can bring that water to the moo by building a town on the hill (filled blue dot). I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but I am quite sure this will be a powerful move. Depending on the relative speed of settler production and worker tasks, we could use a second town (unfilled blue dot) to speed this chain of irrigation.

That's not all that has happened. The scout has explored east along a winding isthmus, eventually meeting India. There is a quite a surprise: they haven't traded techs. I give away both our techs and all our cash in exchange for Burial .

 

[PaperBeetle]

3000bc

The known world...

The totality of Zulu holdings...

4000 bc
Scout S,E. Worker NW.
Settler founds Zimbabwe. Start granary, working the moo.
There are several patches of water just out of sight. Border expansion will tell us which are fresh.
Research Alphabet at maximum.

3950 bc
Scout E,NE. The water to the east is not fresh. Worker S to the moo.

3900 bc
Worker mines the moo. Scout E,E, towards what looks like a desert peninsula.

3850 bc
Scout E,N, passing some sheep. The peninsula could be an isthmus.

3800 bc
Scout N,N. This narrow strip of land continues eastwards.

3750 bc
Scout NE,E. Still on the isthmus...

3700 bc
Scout E,N. To the northeast is a larger stretch of land.

3650 bc
Zimbabwe grows to pop 2 and works the forest. Commerce 0.8.2.
Scout N,N, finding silks.

3600 bc
Mine complete; worker N.
Scout E,E. There is an annoyed Indian axe to the east.
Gandhi hasn't bought any techs from anyone! Most unexpected. He doesn't value our techs very highly, though, so I suspect he does know people who know them...
I give him the only (non-per-turn) deal he will accept; everything we have (10g + War Code + Pots) for Burial!

3550 bc
The Indian axe leaves to the east. Gandhi picks up Bronze.
Scout SE,E. Scout and Indian axe are heading into a large desert.
Worker E.

3500 bc
Borders pop in Zimbabwe, and we get great news; fresh water where I had hoped, to the northwest.
Worker chops. Scout E,SE, meeting a Chinese axe.
Mao has Bronze, Masonry, Alphabet, Wheel and 55g, as well as the techs we have. Zouch. No trading options there.

3450 bc
Scout E,E, arriving at the other side of the desert. From atop a range of mountains, scout sees a Chinese axe/archer combo to the north.

3400 bc
Scout N,E, following the mountain chain. A Chinese town lies to the east.

3350 bc
Commerce 4.4.2: 1gpt, 1 happy, 1 beaker. Ooh we are so rich!
Scout N,N, meeting an Arabian scout.
Abu has only Bronze, Masonry and Pots.
I wonder whether I can see the locked alliances in the diplo screen: yes, I can. India and China are allied, but Arabia is not in that bloc!

3300 bc
Zimbabwe builds granary. Start axe, working coast instead of goat. Commerce 3.6.1 for a whopping 3 beakers per turn!
Chop complete; worker roads. Scout N,N.
I notice that all three other civs have the same Firaxis score as us. This suggests that their capitals have only +2fpt (they would grow as fast as our +3fpt because of their production bonus).

3250 bc
Zimbabwe grows to pop 3 and works the goat. Commerce 3.4.3... 2 smiles needed.
Scout N,N, through forests and grasslands.

3200 bc
Zimbabwe builds axe; start scout. Commerce 4.5.1 brings in 3 beakers per turn.
Axe fortifies for military police. Scout N,N, to meet the Koreans.
Wang has Bronze, Masonry, Alphabet and Wheel, and is in the Sino-indian bloc.Incidentally, Gandhi now has Mysticism.

3150 bc
Zimbabwe works the beegee instead of coast; commerce 4.4.2.
Road complete; worker SW,SW to the moo.
Scout W,W, tracking a Korean settler combo.

3100 bc
Zimbabwe builds scout; start settler.
New scout NE,N. Worker roads. Old scout NW,N to climb a mountain west of Korea... lots of rivers around here.

3050 bc
Zimbabwe grows to pop 4 and works the forest; commerce 5.0.5!
New scout W,N. Old scout NW,W.
India has 2 workers for sale, but Gandhi won't give them up for our 1g... meh. Who does he think he is?

3000 bc
Commerce 3.5.2, as the moo will be roaded this turn.

 

[PaperBeetle]

The next 10 turns are Taxpayer's, I believe. The file is here.
The two scouts are still to be moved (good luck in the hut hunt; I've seen none, but I know Abu popped one, as he has a conscript). Also, the town/commerce micro is already done for this turn. I am using a new spreadsheet still , which I would recommend to follow most carefully. I'll post it up shortly. A town with +3fpt needs constant attention to run smoothly.

Incidentally, we are currently the second-highest scoring team . Whomp's team is leading us 55 to 52 Jason points. I wonder if they either roaded the gems already, or joined the worker back into Zimbabwe.

 

[archphoenix]

great done!
I have two questions,
1.the spreadsheet works perfect for ONE town, then how to maintain more citys? each city create a spreadsheet or just core citys or have another system?
2.why exchange CB, don't wait for change Alpha?

 

[archphoenix]

maybe the "team newbie" is a insult to someones. :O
it should be at most "team sgotm newbie".
when I see "Civ3 GOTM Global Rankings"
Rank Player
2 Wardancer
7 PaperBeetle
11 socralynnek
...
so "team newbie" is a deceptive name to other team

 

[Taxpayer'sMoney]

Taxpayer checking in. Sorry I was out of the SGOTM loop over the weekend. Computer & password issues! I've downloaded the save and the mediterranean resources. So what am I supposed to be doing? Build order? Worker moves? Trading strategy? Any techs that we really want? Where do we put our next city?

@ PaperBeetle: I'm sure if I'd played the opening moves I would have roaded the gems to get a little happiness. I know roading a mountain tile takes a while but wouldn't it be worth it to save the gold, and research our tech quicker?

 

[Taxpayer'sMoney]

@ PaperBeetle: Also why didn't we road the moo while we were mining it? Oooh worker moves are too complicated for my feeble brain!

 

[archphoenix]

I have also eagered to learn where to build the 2nd town and how to use the worker, even how to more the scout! :blush
for PaperBeetle's, a town will be build at hill which 2ne of the capital acting as a aqueduct.
let's expect other experienced members advice.

 

[PaperBeetle]

great done!
I have two questions,
1.the spreadsheet works perfect for ONE town, then how to maintain more citys? each city create a spreadsheet or just core citys or have another system?
2.why exchange CB, don't wait for change Alpha?

1. I certainly have used a second sheet for a second town before, but I think only when I was playing 20k, and I was working out how to use a feeder town to get a 20k built and sized up as quickly as possible. Usually, secondary towns are not strong enough to worry about spreadsheets, and they mainly just work whatever tiles are left over from the settler factory. Also, their corruption makes predicting shields harder. Really the spreadsheet is just used to get the settler factory running as quickly as possible.

2. Yes, I don't know if I chose correctly there. I was very surprised that trading was possible at all, and I was so afraid that he would trade with his pals next turn that I took whatever deal I could get. Also, Burial starts us on the road to Monarchy, which might be an advantageous government for this game.

@ PaperBeetle: I'm sure if I'd played the opening moves I would have roaded the gems to get a little happiness. I know roading a mountain tile takes a while but wouldn't it be worth it to save the gold, and research our tech quicker?

@ PaperBeetle: Also why didn't we road the moo while we were mining it? Oooh worker moves are too complicated for my feeble brain!

Yes, our current commerce situation is pretty desperate. With regards to delaying the road on the moo, and not hooking the gems, I sacrificed everything to get the granary in at size 2. If I hadn't sent the worker to the mountain first, I think I would have had time to road the moo, but at that point I was thinking about roading the gems!

So what am I supposed to be doing? Build order? Worker moves? Trading strategy? Any techs that we really want? Where do we put our next city?

Well, all these things are open for discussion! My opinions on these matters are:
Techs
Yes, we would like techs, but I have no idea how to get any. We have no research and no trading opportunities.
Next city
I favour the hill location to bring water round the mountains. Or if we are willing to comit two settlers to this enterprise, the lakeshore first and then the hill is probably faster. The hill location is pretty rubbish though, so we should bear in mind that it possible to turn a town back into a settler after only 10 turns (10 shields + growth + a whip), but it is important to have the moo irrigated first (I don't think a 'stranded' irrigation on the plains can be used to bring water to another tile).
Worker moves
We have many jobs for the worker! The Irrigation Project, hooking the gems and improving the goat. So I think we need another worker.
Build order
Very messy. Settler due in 2 turns, then maybe we want another scout to check out the areas south of us (please huts please), then that worker.
After that, the next settler, or stick a unit in there?
Anyway, something like this (and here's the final spreadsheet for my turn set):

With regards to Zimbabwe, the important thing must surely be maintaining 4-turn growth. That's +2 food, +2 food, +3 food, +3 food. Go undersize and we miss working decent tiles, go oversize and we work poor tiles while paying huge lux rates.

Good luck!

 

[Taxpayer'sMoney]

Not too keen on producing the extra scout. How about something more useful like a warrior for MP? Afterall a warrior can go walkies too, but it might actually be useful for something else as well. What do the other guys think?

If we do plan on abandonning the hill town once our irrigation project is complete does that alter the decision over where to put the other city next to the lake? Or do we forget about the idea of putting this city here? Also if we go with the city next to the lake plan which comes first: hill town or lake town?

Also not sure whether there's been a full enough appraisal of whether a city placed elsewhere might be more useful. It all seems a bit long-winded this placing of cities just to irrigate one tile. Would we not be better off with a city in a decent location?

 

[PaperBeetle]

If we do plan on abandonning the hill town once our irrigation project is complete does that alter the decision over where to put the other city next to the lake? Or do we forget about the idea of putting this city here? Also if we go with the city next to the lake plan which comes first: hill town or lake town?

The purpose of the lake town is in the first instance to save our worker(s) the extra tile of irrigation, so it would be the first town placed. But it is probably in a sufficiently good location that it can be kept afterwards. Maybe the hill town is keepable too, I dunno. Working two mined hills, it could happily do 5-turn archers. I'm just saying that moving towns is easier than one might imagine.