SGOTM 11 - Who Dat?

[Fluroscent]

Point taken, my initial instinct was to determine how much land Zara had available, and beat him to good spots on an uninhabited island.
But I think we should get two wb's out regardless, but sending the first west is probably best.

Settlers, yeah, they may be hard to find time for just now. We could whip a settler at size6 in Delhi, instead of a worker. But I like the worker better for two reasons: 1. We have more urgent worker tasks than our current workers can handle. 2. Settling the 4th city that soon will seriously hurt our tech towards math.
It adds up to slower pyramids, which I think is a bigger issue than settling a GP farm a dozen turns later.

Building settlers can surely be done in Bombay, but I think we are best off growing it a bit first.

 

[cas]

Point taken, my initial instinct was to determine how much land Zara had available, and beat him to good spots on an uninhabited island.
But I think we should get two wb's out regardless, but sending the first west is probably best.

Yes, I agree we need a 2nd one to send east...or maybe a galley. If the westerly wb runs out of land to explore, it can always come back to settle on the seafood for the gp farm.

Settlers, yeah, they may be hard to find time for just now. We could whip a settler at size6 in Delhi, instead of a worker. But I like the worker better for two reasons: 1. We have more urgent worker tasks than our current workers can handle. 2. Settling the 4th city that soon will seriously hurt our tech towards math.
It adds up to slower pyramids, which I think is a bigger issue than settling a GP farm a dozen turns later. Building settlers can surely be done in Bombay, but I think we are best off growing it a bit first.

I agree math and pyramids take priority. I'd just like to get the gp farm up not too long after your micro-plan a few posts back runs out. Somewhere in the 100-110 turn range. I realize it is going to put a dent in the economy for a bit.

cas

 

[pnp_dredd]

Fluro's plan for GP/library works better than mine. Although mine gets both Academy and Library earlier, that doesn't actually matter because we're running 0% then deficit teching, so the timing isn't so important.

I do question whether it's worth teching fishing, when we could just wait till we get Alpha around turn ~113 and trade for it. Yes this loses us a few turns exploring, but saves us beakers in the long run, and tech rate will be the limiting factor in this game.

I don't like Maths before Alpha: We want cottages and granaries asap (after trading for pottery) and perhaps even to build research. I say Alpha first and chop into Mid's before Maths. Hammers are just not as important as beakers. Alpha also gives us the option of gifting techs to Zara [e.g. if we gift alpha, is he likely to tech Currency for us?]. If we can limit Zara's size we don't need to be too concerned with feeding him techs, as his later tech pace will be limited.

Delhi shouldn't work too many mines: There's lots of forests that need chopping anyway, and we should prioritise working cottages over working mines.

Chopping before maths also means that we can build a settler rather than a worker in Delhi at turn 95 without slowing 'Mids due to the extra city slowing Maths. The GP farm site has awesome potential and settling it a dozen turn later will have a significant negative impact.

(minor) Note that Bombay can work the oasis rather than the cows if we value 2 higher than 3 (unlikely but possible).

 

[Fluroscent]

I tested going with or without math from the endpoint of my previous micro plan. Not too rigorous a test, I didn't stop to think much, and it could surely be optimized.

I had two workers road to zara, then help Delhi. Two workers stayed at Vijay after hooking stone, and the other two mining each GHF.
Delaying the chops by prechopping and waiting for math saved 3 forests and finished mids in 1200BC. Mad chopping without math gave mids in 1075BC.

Both cases I was mostly running two scientists. I guess we are not going to have a 100% certain GP. If we push scientists, we should get one at great odds. But we could also stop working scientists and just begin working on the GE. We will have to be quick in popping the first GS in our GPfarm then.

Either way, I think we HAVE to get math first, or else we risk losing mids. Also, comparing earlier pottery/sailing through trade and the benefit of earlier representation is not a clear cut case.
Math also lets us get started on HG sooner.
In my experience, a quick AI pyramid date at this level is around 1100-1200BC.

Getting a settler out might be best done in Vijay, at size 4. If we farm two FP first, improve horse and cow, and whip 2 pop it should be quite fast.
Delaying fishing can probably be a necessary sacrifice, since getting the GPfarm sooner is probably more important.

 

[Fluroscent]

I encourage people to play out some turns to get a feeling for what can and cannot be done. A lot of things we are speculating about become much clearer with a hands on experience.

Attached T95 save following micro plan.

 

[pnp_dredd]

I had a go from that test save trying Alpha first, and early GP farm. [edit: just confirming that I'm happy with Fluro's micro plan to this point]

Built settler in Delhi. Didn't worry about trying for another Scientist.
Bombay builds another worker. Vijay builds a worker at size 2.
Teched masonry then turned off research (begin Alpha).
Workers build Quarry, road to Zara then all focus on Delhi (2 stay to improve Vijay)
Turn 101 (1475) whip settler 6->4, overflow completes Library, 37 hammers (actually 37*2=74) overflow into Mids.
Turn 104 move one worker from Vijay towards GP farm site. Other stays to improve Vijay. Whip worker in Vijay (perhaps not necessary).
Turn 105 settle GP farm, begin library. Switch back to Caste next turn to run Artist.
Turn 116 (1100) got Mids. Alpha still has one turn to go (Alpha will always finish after maths, and the extra city further slows tech pace).
turn 117 begin building granaries and wbs and making cottages. Bombay builds research.

I don't know if this is better or not, but it's a viable option!

Advantages:
GP farm settled earlier. Note that Representation isn't that good unless we are actually running specialists!
Earlier cottages/granaries and earlier Fishing too (which is nice for the GP farm and opens coastal trade).
Can build research.
If we go this way, then we could tech Aesth-Lit next to really get the GP farm pumping early (and open the Parthenon option), and let others tech Maths for us. [hmm, in the test game Zara heads for Monarchy then Theology]

Disadvantages:
Slower maths, which means we use more forests. May grow into unhealthyness in Delhi.
Slower Hanging Gardens.
Mids are delayed a few turns (perhaps into dangerous territory)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I am not confident in my micro in these SG formats, it actually scares me because I never optimize it (and right now, RL pressure would make spending careful turns hard on me). I want to contribute to the team though, so maybe I should stay in an advisory role here.

That being said, the warrior near our culture can be pushed out for more spawnbusting (to its NW) as of the last screen shots.

I am not sold on cottages outside of maybe the FP city, ESPECIALLY if we get pyramids. Reasoning:

1. We're not going for culture
2. Cottages have very low ROI compared to other options for ~100-150 turns. That's well over half of our game from this point, if we're to be competitive.
3. Outside of bur cap, mines are generally >> cottages, and definitely better than non-riverside cottages.

We should plan carefully how we are going to set up our tile improvements against our tech rate, that can easily be as important as any other micro decision we make.

We also have access to some good trade routes (zara) and are PHI, so we can really crank GPP if we want, and with the wonders we're planning I'd argue that's our best bet.

 

[cas]

I was concerned moving the fogbuster 1NW you are talking about would leave a fogged tile closer to the capital in one of the 3 tundra tiles.

cas

 

[Fluroscent]

WithTea hasn't posted in a while, so idk if he is up to date. I suggest pnp_dredd play the next set to keep us moving. WT can jump in whenever ready.

We may learn something new during those turns that influence the math/alpha choice, but just advancing the game should help figuring it out.

There seem to be four combinations to test where we either whip a worker or a settler and either tech math or alpha. I still feel the worker/math path is safest, and similar in power, especially considering the huge amount of hammers gained.

 

[pnp_dredd]

OK, I'm up (unless WithTea jumps in), and unless there are any objection or revelations I'll play turns in around 24 hours from this post.

Fluro's plan in #219 seems solid.

The only thing I might change: In the plan Bombay reaches size 2 and then builds at least 2 workers, perhaps 3. I think it's better to grow to size 3 first, building warriors. The third tile is either a 0-4-0 mined plains hill or a 3-0-2 oasis. I think that the 2 commerce in particular are valuable, and are worth getting the first worker out a bit later, but noting that a third worker would arrive around the same time. This also would mean that I would delay the Bombay forest chop till Bombay starts the workers.

 

[beestar]

Sounds like you guys have a good handle on the short term and micro activities so please go ahead. Some points though:

- Do we have a free warrior to explore east into Zara's territory? We need to know whether Zara has one of the needed luxury resources.

- Also has anyone opened the trade screen with Zara to check if he's got more cities?

- If Zara is going to tech Monarch to Theology (as in the test game), he's probably going to found Christianity and switch to it. There's not a whole lot of point in spreading Confucianism to all our cities if we would prefer to be Christian for diplo points with Zara. I assume that we do not want to chase Theology ourselves. In this case, I would hold back on building Confucian missionaries for either our own cities or Justinian's cities. Better just to join Zara's Christian block and hope he builds the AP as well.

 

[Fluroscent]

@dredd
I think chopping at least one worker at size 2 in Bombay is best, but the next could be delayed I guess. I do feel like worker turns are at a premium right now, so I preferred sacrificing Bombay a bit for this purpose. The extra gains from growing first are not going to be a huge payoff compared to the work a quicker worker can produce hooking stone, making trade routes and improving the Vijay tiles faster.

Your call, just make sure to stop at the point where we have to decide between a worker or settler in Delhi.

- Also has anyone opened the trade screen with Zara to check if he's got more cities?

Buffy shows city count in the bottom right, and it is 2 for both AI.

- If Zara is going to tech Monarch to Theology (as in the test game), he's probably going to found Christianity and switch to it. There's not a whole lot of point in spreading Confucianism to all our cities if we would prefer to be Christian for diplo points with Zara. I assume that we do not want to chase Theology ourselves. In this case, I would hold back on building Confucian missionaries for either our own cities or Justinian's cities. Better just to join Zara's Christian block and hope he builds the AP as well.

Since we will see his research, we should know whether he is going for Theology before we can start spamming missionaries anyway.

 

[beestar]

Buffy shows city count in the bottom right, and it is 2 for both AI.

As I mentioned earlier, there are cases where BUFFY's count isn't up to date. I believe this is intended behaviour, as sometimes the player does not know of all the AI cities.

I'm not sure whether the trade screen reveals any more data though.

 

[pnp_dredd]

@dredd
I think chopping at least one worker at size 2 in Bombay is best, but the next could be delayed I guess.

I'll run some practice tests tonight, to see where the workers pop out under a few different scenarios. I do agree that worker turns are at a premium, so chopping those two forests into workers asap is likely to be pretty good.

 

[Fluroscent]

As I mentioned earlier, there are cases where BUFFY's count isn't up to date. I believe this is intended behaviour, as sometimes the player does not know of all the AI cities.

I'm not sure whether the trade screen reveals any more data though.

The number is blue if you do not have the information available in the trade screen, or by direct visuals. Like if the AI refuses to talk, or if you are playing OCC. This is of course intentional, since BUFFY isn't supposed to give information that you wouldn't be able to get normally.
Same deal as with WHEOOHRN, which you will not be able to detect if, say, you are isolated with one AI.
If the city count is available from the trade screen, then the number should be correct. Is there any reason to think it does not work properly?

 

[pnp_dredd]

I checked the save and there's only the one city up for trade.

It's almost perfect chopping the two available forests around Bombay into a worker: There is only 7 hammers overflow, complete on turn 89 (was working the oasis rather than the cow). After this both warrior and growth happen 8 turns later (again, working the Oasis). This assumes that it only takes 1 turn to chop the "1 turn PC" forest - Cas is this correct?

Also, I think I'll start a Library in Vijay rather than Courthouse: It's actually a decent science city that can run four scientists at size 8 (working the three FPs), and a maximum of 6 scientists before CS if we irrigate everything including the horse. It's only 1 hammer per turn at this point anyway. Anyone strenuously object?

Also, in the test game we are able to trade Clams with Zara around turn 90. I can't see any reason not to trade clams for wheat, to start getting resource trade diplo points.

Finally, I'll send the Bombay warrior SE towards Zara, stopping along the way to take out the barb warrio (hopefully can get him to attack our warrior on a forest).

 

[beestar]

It was the color that I was thinking about - I didn't know there was a color change when the information is not up to date. Thanks for the information.

 

[cas]

This assumes that it only takes 1 turn to chop the "1 turn PC" forest - Cas is this correct?

no, this means I chopped 1 turn and it has the rest left to go. You can mouse over the forest and it will tell you how many turns left to chop it.

(Bombay) "was working the oasis rather than the cow".

oops. Forgot to switch it after the cows were pastured.

cas

 

[pnp_dredd]

no, this means I chopped 1 turn and it has the rest left to go. You can mouse over the forest and it will tell you how many turns left to chop it.


oops. Forgot to switch it after the cows were pastured.

cas

hmm, in that case I'll chop both forests into the first worker, with the overflow going into another worker, but then build a warrior while we grow to size 3.

I think the Oasis is generally preferable, particularly while building warriors. Tech pace is absolutely vital, whereas hammers are less important, particularly hammers put into warriors. Say it takes 8 turns to grow while we build warriors: I'd rather work the oasis, have 1 warrior and 8x2=16 extra gold, which is one extra turn at 100% research (i.e. well more than 16 beakers), rather than work the cows and have 2 warriors. It's different if the hammers are going into workers, of course.

 

[pnp_dredd]

Turnset summary (screenies to come)

Turn 81, 1975 BC: Vijayanagara has been founded.
Turn 81, 1975 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!

Turn 83, 1925 BC: Gandhi's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Warrior! (defending on the cow near Bombay)

Spoiler :

Turn 83, 1925 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (1.84) vs Gandhi's Warrior (2.70)
Turn 83, 1925 BC: Combat Odds: 10.6%
Turn 83, 1925 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 83, 1925 BC: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 83, 1925 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 83, 1925 BC: Gandhi's Warrior is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 83, 1925 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (61/100HP)
Turn 83, 1925 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (38/100HP)
Turn 83, 1925 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (15/100HP)
Turn 83, 1925 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 23 (0/100HP)

Turn 84, 1900 BC: The borders of Vijayanagara have expanded!

Turn 85, 1875 BC: The borders of Bombay have expanded!

Turn 86: Trades with Zara open up. Trade corn for clam.

Turn 89, 1775 BC: Zara Yaqob has completed Stonehenge!

Turn 93, 1675 BC: Socrates (Great Scientist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 94, 1650 BC: Delhi will grow to size 6 on the next turn.

Turn 95, 1625 BC: Delhi has grown to size 6.


Zara is teching Iron Working.

I explored a bit, and found 3 clams and a sugar to the NE. Zara doesn't have any resources.