SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

[pnp_dredd]

OK so here's the eventual post-PP, pre-sushi comparison between Moscow and Novogorad. It's not exact but pretty close.

Moscow size 13:
Total commerce: (37 )
2 golds (14 )
4 towns (20 )
3 riverside tiles (3 )
+2 specialists (6 )

Novogorad size 12:
Total commerce: (62 )
1 silver (5 )
9 towns (45 )
12 riverside tiles (12 )

Moscow as bureaucracy capital with academy/monastary/library/uni/oxford makes 37*1.5*(1+0.5+0.1+0.25+0.25+1)+6*(1+0.5+0.1+0.25+0.25+1)=190

Novogorad as bureaucracy capital with monastary/library/uni/oxford makes 62*1.5*(1+0.1+0.25+0.25+1)=241 (would be 290 with an Academy)

So Novogorad is >50/turn better in the long run as a palace/oxford science city. But that's not the relevant question.

In order to equal Moscow's commerce, Novogorad needs to be working 4-5 towns (or the equivalent, e.g. 6-7 Villages).

Unfortunately, at the moment Novogorad is only size 3 and has only one hamlet and one cottage to work (shared with CI).

The fastest way to get Novogorad's cottages online will actually be to build a few farms to get that population growing, and then to switch to cottages once the population approaches 8-9.

It will take at least 20 turns to grow Novogorad up to around size 8-9, and that's if we focus on growth (which isn't optimal, because we need production for Forge/Palace/Uni/Oxford). Then another 30 turns to grow cottages into villages.

So I think that ~50 turns is the break-even point, where Novogorad will be producing as much commerce as Moscow. After that Novogorad will pull away quickly.

Is it worth it? Probably not, for two reasons:

1) Novogorad is so small that it will take too long to grow, build infrastructure and work cottages. We have 2 forests, but that's not enough. We can't whip because we need the population.

2) Worker turns are needed elsewhere.

It's a bit unfortunate that we haven't been focussing on Novogorad up till now: it could have had another couple of population and be working a few more cottages, if it had been focussed on growth and had a few more workers.

 

[Fluroscent]

Good analysis dredd. I'll add a third reason why it is not worth it:

3) Having more beakers in those 50 turns will greatly speed up our key progress techs, culminating with mining.inc. The advantages of getting there quicker will easily trump the 50 beakers/turn for the rest of the game, since the effect will snowball to allow us to get many more cities productive quicker. And 50beakers/turn should be a drop in the ocean once we start powering through the space age techs.

Edit: one more

4) We are probably switching out of bureaucracy once we get enough towns that FS becomes better. That diminishes the advantage Novogrod has lategame

One thing we might consider though is to build an academy in Novogrod if our next GP is a scientist. I think it will be better than bulbing anything at this point.

 

[pnp_dredd]

yep, it may have been worth it if we were more peaceful and had a 500ad target for Oxford.

Also some of the AI cities are peachy, so fastest cannons for earlier invasions is win.

 

[BLubmuz]

Good analysis dredd. I'll add a third reason why it is not worth it:

4) We are probably switching out of bureaucracy once we get enough towns that FS becomes better. That diminishes the advantage Novogrod has lategame

One thing we might consider though is to build an academy in Novogrod if our next GP is a scientist. I think it will be better than bulbing anything at this point.

I agree on everything.

A good analysis, dredd.

I think we need to spam settlers, then plan a WW.

Where is UT?

BTW, i think that we can give a priority to the iceball for dG.
Then we'll raze his present last city to gain room for Paris and Orleans. Possibly right after the forced peace.

 

[Fluroscent]

BLubmuz, there is talk in the maintenance thread about an extension of the deadline into January. I cannot imagine why we would be against it.
So I guess we should voice our support in there.

BTW, i think that we can give a priority to the iceball for dG.
Then we'll raze his present last city to gain room for Paris and Orleans. Possibly right after the forced peace.

Since there is no big rush to take Lyons, I think we should:
1. Make sure we have a couple more cats to bombard/suicide.
2. Have enough troops that we can properly defend our cities in case of a DOW while we attack Lyons, since the three others are in WHEOOHRN mode. A couple of maces should suffice, or gold enough to upgrade some axes in a tight spot. No reason to gamble with this.

By the way, I don't like razing Lyons. It has a pig hill, which itself is enough to make it profitable. It can also help grow cottages, contribute to shrine wealth etc.

 

[unclethrill]

I'm here. I had to replace the HDD in my computer. I'm almost back up and ready to get my PPP out. It will likely be tomorrow though.

I voiced that I thought we would be okay with the extension. I can't see a downside to it.

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm here. I had to replace the HDD in my computer. I'm almost back up and ready to get my PPP out. It will likely be tomorrow though.

I voiced that I thought we would be okay with the extension. I can't see a downside to it.

No, in fact i posted right after you saying so.

More time to plan and discuss is welcome.

@Fluro
i thought that Lyons steal the 2 hills from Paris.
Sure, it's up to us decide which city will work them, but i see it weak if we want Paris grow powerful.

But we have time to discuss until the half TS is posted.

 

[unclethrill]

double post

 

[unclethrill]

Here is my draft for the first 10 turns:

Troops:

Leave cap, 2 phant and axe in Paris.
Move rest of troops from paris to Orleans in case of attack.
Move archer and axe near Rheims into city to protect.
Continue to move new troops to the french area.


Religion:

Wait 2 turns and spread Confusion to Rostov


Tech:
Switch to Feud then Guilds on way to econ and free merchant and move slider to 100%


Cities:

Yarslav: Granary (18)
Novogorod: University (29)
CI: Forge (4), University (10)
Moscow: Worker (2), University (5), worker(2), Worker(2)
StP: Forge(1), University (10), CH (5)
Rostov: Granary (2), Lighthouse (10)
Rheims: Granary (25)
Paris : Granary (?)
Orleans: Library (5), Confused Mission )(for paris) (10),

Workers:

Paris worker to mine gems in orleans
Rheims workers finish quarry then clear FO and mine gems
Rostov Worker farm rice then camp Phants
Rest of workers finish what they are doing then clear FO and farm Rostov so that we can grow and whip buildings there.


Trades:

None are promising right now unless we can get Feudalism and not allow the AI philo or edu.

Civics:

No Changes




I choose the tech route based on the fact that we can only sustain about 25% research so we need to recover our economy quickly. We need the economy for expansion and teching.

 

[BLubmuz]

I don't think we need LH right now.

You forgot the settler for the iceball and a couple cats to take Lyons. The more i look at the map, the more i think it's useless, worst, counterproductive.

Did we already identified the Uni cities? I guess
Moscow
StPete
CI
Nov
Rostov
not sure about the 6th, probably a former French city? Orleans, maybe?

And better think to some CH. As you said, we're around 25%. It's useless to have OU soon and use it 1/4 of the turns.

Luckily Paris is size 6 and we can probably whip a CH and a library there, after the Granary.

 

[pnp_dredd]

Oxford needs to be our #1 priority right now - we're way behind a normal fast space pace (due to warring, which is fine adn was deliberate, but we need to focus now).

What can we do to speed up Uni in Novogorad? We can chop some forests, and work out whether to work grasslands to grow and then whip, or to focus on production.

As Blubmuz stated, there's still one more Uni that isn't listed. I haven't looked at the save, so can't recommend the best city (probably one with a library and already high population that we can whip away).

I'd like to see a little more detail on worker turns - having citizens working improved tiles is how we grow, so we need to think a little about where we need special improvements, farms, mines or cottages. Also need to consider how we distribute workers based on fast or slow growth in cities.

As for teching, I think we want Cannons asap to keep our war-based expansion going, so I say we beeline Steel. This also open Ironworks. We could perhaps still run 0% slider until we complete more Unis. Economics is lower priority.

 

[Fluroscent]

Yep, Oxford needs to be THE priority. I'll suggest changes in this vein.
To finish the universities, we will need to whip a lot. Of course, we don't need to whip the universities until we can complete all six! So when I write "prepare whip" it means whip exactly when we can complete the remaining universities in all university cities.

Troops:

Leave cap, 2 phant and axe in Paris.
Move rest of troops from paris to Orleans in case of attack.
Move archer and axe near Rheims into city to protect.
Continue to move new troops to the french area.


Religion:

Wait 2 turns and spread Confusion to Rostov


Tech:
Switch to Feud then Guilds on way to econ and free merchant and move slider to 100%
No, self researching Feud is a waste since we can trade for it. Also, researching anything before Oxford is throwing beakers out the window. My preference is to research Printing Press, at 0% until at least university in Moscow, but probably best to wait for Oxford.

Cities:

Yarslav: Granary (18) Whip when possible ->Courthouse
Novogorod: University (29) Prepare whip. Work maximum food
CI: Forge (4), University (10). Change to Forge(Whip immediately)->catapult->catapult->university (prepare whip).
Moscow: Worker (2), University (5), worker(2), Worker(2) OK if you pause TS after this for further evaluation.
StP: Forge(1), University (10), CH (5) Change to Forge->University->Settler (iceball)
Rostov: Granary (2), Lighthouse (10) University city: Granary -> Library (1T, then whip) -> University (prepare whip)
Rheims: Granary (25) Whip when possible->Courthouse
Paris : Granary (?) Whip when possible->Courthouse
Orleans: Library (5), Confused Mission )(for paris) (10), University city: Library (whip immediately)-University (prepare whip)

General note: In all new cities, food is king. Always put priority on food! Especially Novogrod, Orleans, Rostov, since they NEED to grow fast to enable whipping universities. Food is A LOT faster than hammers when building things with the whip.

Workers:

Paris worker to mine gems in orleans Plantation bananas first
Rheims workers finish quarry then clear FO and mine gems Go to Rostov and improve food+hammers there!
Rostov Worker farm rice then camp Phants Farm the grass to irrigate rice before camp, get help from Rheims workers and newly built ones in Moscow. Mining hills is as good as camping phants, and they are closer
Rest of workers finish what they are doing then clear FO and farm Rostov so that we can grow and whip buildings there. All of them? The ones up north stay and improve Novogrod.

General note: Be sure to make improvements that match what we want to work. Food is way way way more important than commerce right now. So for instance, if improving Orleans, we want the bananas before gems, and corn before gems in Rheims etc.

Trades:

None are promising right now unless we can get Feudalism and not allow the AI philo or edu.
Consult team if a possible trade is available

Civics:

No Changes

A pause when you complete the suggested Moscow build would be good so we can see how soon we can finish the unis. Obviously, we want to complete Oxford as soon as humanly possible, so Moscow needs to be ready when the unis complete.

I am going to make a 2nd post with some detailed city micro suggestions

 

[Fluroscent]

City micromanagement:

Moscow: Fire engineer, work fish. When growing, add coast tiles to grow further rather than specialists. We want to have excess pop to whip Oxford when we can.

StP: Switch from PH Mine (4) to Silk (25) City stagnates at size 10 in six turns, working all its land tiles.

CI: Loses fish to Moscow. Lose grass cottage to Novogrod. Whips 2 pop, so work the current land tiles -cottage and a coast tile and stagnate.

Novogrod: Switch to rice+deer+cottage(from CI). Growth: work cleared grass tile. Only work marble/silver if no 2 or better tile is available. FARM the cleared grass tile asap (cottage over it later), then clear more grass and cottage it.

Rostov: Switch from forest to unimproved rice. Work as much food as possible.

Orleans: Same deal. Work bananas 3, soon 5:food. grass cottage 2 over plains cottage 11

 

[Fluroscent]

You forgot the settler for the iceball and a couple cats to take Lyons. The more i look at the map, the more i think it's useless, worst, counterproductive.

I suggested a settler in StP after university. I think it is good enough for timing since we don't want it to hurt our Oxford time.
Let's wait on deciding on razing/keeping Lyons until we are ready to take it.

And better think to some CH. As you said, we're around 25%. It's useless to have OU soon and use it 1/4 of the turns.

We have a big stockpile of gold which we will turn into beakers at a high rate once we have Oxford. And we will be ramping up commerce intake soon. I suggested Granary-CH in all the non-university cities. CH in the university cities after universities is also good. FP in Rheims sound good?

What can we do to speed up Uni in Novogorad? We can chop some forests, and work out whether to work grasslands to grow and then whip, or to focus on production.

Novogrod is not our crux point as I see it (Rostov seems to be it). But the solution is to grow fast and whip, as I have suggested.

As Blubmuz stated, there's still one more Uni that isn't listed. I haven't looked at the save, so can't recommend the best city (probably one with a library and already high population that we can whip away).

2 actually. And it has to be Rostov+Orleans. Rheims is too small, Paris is too late.

As for teching, I think we want Cannons asap to keep our war-based expansion going, so I say we beeline Steel. This also open Ironworks. We could perhaps still run 0% slider until we complete more Unis. Economics is lower priority.

I agree with this. Economics can wait. Printing press is worth it since it gives a nice commerce boost, especially to Moscow. Steel is the priority tech.

And an addendum: Whatever we do, we cannot discover any key techs before Oxford, so we MUST keep 0% until Oxford, OR we lose a hefty amount of beakers for NOTHING.

 

[beestar]

Seems OK to me at a quick glance. Definitely should run 0% science slider.

It's okay to delay Economics in favour of PP and Steel, but we need to know if the other AIs are close to getting it - courthouses for EP to monitor Gandhi will be useful, or even a bit of EP slider. We are many pre-requisites away from it: Feudalism, Guilds, Banking.

 

[unclethrill]

Okay I will incorporate all the suggestions and post a consolidated PPP tonight (next few hours)

 

[BLubmuz]

Moscow: Fire engineer, work fish. When growing, add coast tiles to grow further rather than specialists. We want to have excess pop to whip Oxford when we can.

Whip OU? You know how much cots whip a wonder, even if a National one? We have stone and Moscow has good production. Better grow, agreed but the eng can be our next GPerson. OK, we need a GS more than a GE now, but a GE is always welcome.

 

[Fluroscent]

Whip OU? You know how much cots whip a wonder, even if a National one? We have stone and Moscow has good production. Better grow, agreed but the eng can be our next GPerson. OK, we need a GS more than a GE now, but a GE is always welcome.

Whip or not, we get the best returns by growing our bureaucracy capital. I am just thinking that OU is so important that if we can get away with whipping away some coast tiles it is definitely worth it.
Also, we really need to be careful about generating too much GPP, or it will be tough to pop the engineer later. Better make sure we can get one then, rather than gamble on getting one earlier.

 

[unclethrill]

Troops:

Leave cap, 2 phant and axe in Paris.
Move rest of troops from paris to Orleans in case of attack.
Move archer and axe near Rheims into city to protect.
Continue to move new troops to the french area.


Religion:

Wait 2 turns and spread Confusion to Rostov


Tech:

Switch to Printing press and leave at 0%


Cities:

Yarslav: Granary (18) Whip when possible ->Courthouse
Novogorod: University (29) Prepare whip. Work maximum food
CI: Change to Forge(Whip immediately)->catapult->catapult->university (prepare whip).
Moscow: Worker (2), University (5), worker(2), Worker(2)
StP: University->Settler (iceball)
Rostov: Granary -> Library (1T, then whip) -> University (prepare whip)
Rheims: Granary (25) Whip when possible->Courthouse
Paris : Granary (?) Whip when possible->Courthouse
Orleans: Library (whip immediately)-University (prepare whip)



Workers:

Paris worker to plantation bananas in orleans
Rheims workers go to Rostov and improve food+hammers there!
Rostov Worker farm rice then farm grass to irrigate rice then mine hill
Rest of workers finish Northern workers improve Novo


Trades:

None are promising right now. Stoop and consult if a trade is sensible.

Civics:

No Changes

City Micro:

Moscow: Fire engineer, work fish. When growing, add coast tiles to grow further rather than specialists. We want to have excess pop to whip Oxford when we can.

StP: Switch from PH Mine to Silk City stagnates at size 10 in six turns, working all its land tiles.

CI: Loses fish to Moscow. Lose grass cottage to Novogrod. Whips 2 pop, so work the current land tiles -cottage and a coast tile and stagnate.

Novogrod: Switch to rice+deer+cottage(from CI). Growth: work cleared grass tile. Only work marble/silver if no 2 food or better tile is available. FARM the cleared grass tile asap (cottage over it later), then clear more grass and cottage it.

Rostov: Switch from forest to unimproved rice. Work as much food as possible.

Orleans: Same deal. Work bananas , soon 5:food. grass cottage over plains cottage

 

[unclethrill]

I will plan to play 9 or 10 turns tomorrow and then we can go from there.