SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

[beestar]

Looks exciting - nice to see a stack smash itself against our newly captured French city.

Slick move with trading Mono to Paris ... very nice.

How did we get visibility of Stalingrad? It looks like most of the AIs have met Joe Stalin, but I don't see the path by which they got visibility of his home city?

It is tempting to try to get Stalin to nuke one of our enemies! Have him spend his nukes, and dispose of our foes ... he's so backward I bet he is easily bribed into killing one of them. Maybe we can even make him our Confucian buddy ...

 

[Fluroscent]

MM notes on checking save:

-Moscow should avoid running scientists. Reclaim the cottages from StP. Also work coast over specs.
-CI can reclaim the fish next turn to grow. Then work the plains cottage for Novogrod. Then coast tiles to grow. Whip whenever we can do it and still work our hammer tiles.
-StP should give up the cottages to Moscow, and instead work its own cottage and the mine.
-Orleans should work Bananas as soon as Paris falls.
-Work the deer at Novogrod.

Workers (important!) NEED to be at the university cities ASAP. There are NO workers at either Novogrod or Rostov. Get three at least to each site right away.
-The one at CI does not need to scrub there. We don't want cottages there (except the ones it can grow for Novogrod). Send it down to Rostov.
-Send two of the workers at Yaro over to Novogrod. Yaro is settled, which is nice, but it is not a priority to improve. One can stay to improve corn, then wine.
-Send the StP dude down to Rostov.
-Send the Rheims one scrubbing stone to Rostov too. The other two workers can improve gems and stone in time.

So we really lack workers now. And the missonary for Rostov is critical.

I suggest we change builds:
Moscow: finish forge->confu missonary->worker X4->university
StP: Worker->finish forge->university
Novogrod: finish library->forge->university
CI: forge-university
Orleans/Rostov: granary->library->university

Orleans, Rostov and Novogrod need to work food above all else, then hammers. Finishing the universities is our top priority.
Whip Granary in Rostov when we grow to 4. Save whips elsewhere for unis.

New worker in StP can cottage the remaining grass there. Then go whereever needed. The new ones from Moscow go mainly south to improve Orleans/Rheims/Paris.

We can hold off the Moscow/Novogrod Oxford discussion for this set since we are behind on unis.
Do switch to Liberalism to not waste the considerable beaker overflow on Compass.

And do set 0% research for the rest of the set. Agree Oxford might be too far off for complete 0% throughout. But right now there is no reason to not be at 0%. At least let us get some unis online first.

Its 720AD. I'll bet some teams are going to have Oxford completed by now. We really need to get a move on.

 

[Fluroscent]

Military MM:

First off, move the most advanced part of the stack 1N to block the path to Lyons. Then obviously bombard away the culture.
Keep the incoming units on the hill. Best to have two stacks in case he uses the catapult.
Send the phants+axe from Orleans to help vs Paris.
Send the HA on the road west to scout for incoming stacks instead.
Send the phant in Rheims to help too, in case the attack goes wrong. Replace with the next axe on the path.
Expect to loose all four cats when attacking. But I think we have enough troops to win once we soften them with the cats.
Make sure we are fully healed and all units ready to strike when we pull the trigger.

 

[BLubmuz]

I need this answer:
What about the trade for Machinery with G.?

For the rest, i agree on everything, good catch on the battle formation.

But on the research to 0. If we trade for Machinery, optics is at hand and so an happy resource (whales).

No point in shutting research for such a long time frame, IMO. We can stop after Optics.

But i agree on starting Lib, to gather the overflow on this.

 

[Fluroscent]

What about the trade for Machinery with G.?

I don't think we gain anything useful from Machinery yet. So better to wait. If we get DOW'ed and it looks tough, we can make the trade so we can upgrade some axes to maces. But I'd wait for now.
As for the whale, we should be good on happy resources with gems coming online, the ensuing +3 forges. And we also have various calendar resources and wine soon available. I don't think getting to optics quick is worth losing beakers. Please do 0% for the rest of the turns, then we can re-evaluate.

 

[BLubmuz]

I've avoided to answer to wait for more comments.
It's between me and Fluro, it seems.

Useful or not, Machinery means 3 turns at full research saved.
Now we're running roughly at 50% for break even, so it means 6 turns.

It's true that we give an important tech, but it's also true that it's a fair change. Then we need to crush G. with Infantry and cannons, since he's got some fallouted tiles in his territory.
As we can see now that we got the map, we'll need to crush any AI and offer them some iceball or island city.

Remember that every tile must be cleaned to compete for a medal.

 

[beestar]

Sorry, been playing Civ 5 TSG3 ... what a boring game. Now that that's over, I can comment (maybe pnp_dredd too).

Won't be until tomorrow though as I'd like to look at the file. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[BLubmuz]

Sure, but please find some minute, we're starting being in late.

 

[Fluroscent]

Useful or not, Machinery means 3 turns at full research saved.

I'm not saying not to trade for it. I'm just saying wait

 

[BLubmuz]

I'm not saying not to trade for it. I'm just saying wait

But if G start researching CS we can lose the chance. And i doubt he's already doing so if he asks money for a more valuable tech. Even on Emperor.

Unfortunately, we've lost the ability to see his research and no way to catch without some CH.

We can make a bet and wait.

 

[Fluroscent]

Just make the trade then. Not a big deal. I forgot we couldn't see his research any more.

 

[BLubmuz]

Just make the trade then. Not a big deal. I forgot we couldn't see his research any more.

OK, it was the last thing i needed.
I'll take your advice for workers and so on and play until Paris fall.
I think later tonight or tomorrow.

Wish me good luck.

 

[beestar]

BL, hope this isn't too late .. diplo is the most useful commentary, the other is a bit longer range.

War: watch out for the galley and Settler in Paris - will he set sail?.

What about selling Monotheism to Stalin for 20 gp and a massive +4 diplo bonus? Would be nice to get him to Cautious, send over a Missionary after Optics, and try to make him our nuke-empowered ally. Stalin is always easily bribed into war. Important: If we sell him our map, will he gain contact with the other AIs? I think getting him to nuke the AI might be really useful.

Can we sell Lit to Roosevelt for his 110 gp and diplo? Seems safe to me even if he is planning on attacking us.

Scouting the west would be a really good idea. If Roosevelt or Mao are planning on attacking us, we need advance visibility of any approaching stacks,

I think we should be following the Economics path now for the GM. Still not sure what to use Liberalism for. Steel? Mil Trad?

Damn, that is a big map. I guess it doesn't look like the world at all. India is indeed on another continent, reachable by galleys, but it's easily cut off by the intervening nations (China and England) if they war on us.

We have visibility over the AI-inhabited lands, but there's a lot of unsettled land in the islands I'm not sure whether we would prefer the AI to settle it, or us to grab it ourselves. One mistake in SGOTM10 was letting the AI settle overseas (more cities to nuke) but I don't think we have this constraint in this game. Only question is whether it's better to clear fallout ourselves, or have the AI do it.

 

[beestar]

It's true that we give an important tech, but it's also true that it's a fair change. Then we need to crush G. with Infantry and cannons, since he's got some fallouted tiles in his territory.
As we can see now that we got the map, we'll need to crush any AI and offer them some iceball or island city.

Remember that every tile must be cleaned to compete for a medal.

Not sure I follow the logic here. Why not wait for the AI to clean the tiles themselves? For example, do we fear that they won't clear fallout from islands that are in their culture but far from cities?

By the way, can you clear fallout from the tiles of another civ, if you have Open Borders with them (in the same way that you can build roads in other civs' territories)? (Edit: checked in WB and the answer is no. Apologies if this was already answered earlier ...)

P.S. I did a rough count, and there are about 320 fallout tiles visible to us. The AIs will slowly decrease this number as the clean fallout. However, there may be fallout on islands that are not yet revealed. So ... how many worker turns is that? Assuming Serfdom and Steam Power from BLubmuz's calculations and 50% tundra/desert tiles, plus one move to go onto the tile, that's 4.5 turns per tile. I haven't included transport time. That's 1440 worker turns total ... army of 36 workers for 40 turns at the end of the game? A nightmare of micro, but maybe not unmanageable.

 

[BLubmuz]

@Beestar
I've seen your comments and your email. I'll play tomorrow late morning/early afternoon, i think.

I take note of some of your comments on diplo. Not sure if selling the WM to Stalin is more a risk or can be an opportunity to have our foes nuked. We're not even sure he's got nukes.

On a more short term, i don't see what you don't get about the Machinery/CS trade.
I clearly exposed the situation, i think all my comments are on this page.

About fallout scrub, i can't see how the AIs can do it by themselves. They need Ecology and we can't clean it even with OBs in their land (like we can't chop forests or jungles), even in vassal territory (and vassal are disabled for this game).

This is the real trick of this game: clean fallout. It's what i said even before to start. Not only fast teching to Space, but every tile clean. This means we must have knowledge of all the map and manage to transport the workers where needed.

And this is probably why domination is not a VC for this game. We're on the right path, i think with a mix of research and army building. The only way to assure the fallout is cleared is to do it by ourselves. Even if we give away all the techs to Ecology we can't be sure the AIs will scrub it.

 

[unclethrill]

We really have no choice but to essentially be at a conquest when we launch the ship. All AI need to be at 1 or 2 cities and we either have to clear the fallout and settle a city for them or have to be sure that the final city they have is cleared.

I really think that our main focus needs to be war right now. We need to do everything we can to kill, kill, kill. We will get to the SS soon enough (likely too soon). We need to gather land and build workers to clear fallout. Fallout IS the long pole , not techs, not SS parts, nothing else but owning land and clearing fallout.

So the bottom line is: we need rifles and cannons ASAP and we need to continue to crank out troops on the way there. The fastest SS will NOT win this challenge. The most dominate army will. (Army of troops and army of workers).

BLubmuz, I think you have a good plan so you have my approval.

 

[beestar]

I take note of some of your comments on diplo. Not sure if selling the WM to Stalin is more a risk or can be an opportunity to have our foes nuked. We're not even sure he's got nukes.

I'm 90% sure he does. He says "Our words are backed by nuclear weapons!" (If someone wants to confirm this, run a WB test and see if the requirement for that statement is (1) Teching Fision, (2) building Manhattan Project, or (3) actually building an ICBM or tac nuke). Just keep opening the diplo negotiation screen until that message pops up.) Anyway, the more important thing is making sure he gets contact with the others. Now that I think about it, selling our map won't actually do it, so I suppose it's better to wait until he meets the other AIs to start letting him see where they are.

On a more short term, i don't see what you don't get about the Machinery/CS trade. I clearly exposed the situation, i think all my comments are on this page.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here - the machinery trade seems OK to me.

About fallout scrub, i can't see how the AIs can do it by themselves. They need Ecology and we can't clean it even with OBs in their land (like we can't chop forests or jungles), even in vassal territory (and vassal are disabled for this game).

Are you suggesting the AI doesn't have Ecology? This is impossible, otherwise the AIs would be hopelessly crippled in this game - look at all the fallout-contaminated tiles in AI territory.

I agree that cleaning fallout is critical. The question is whether we war early and clean the fallout ourselves, or whether we focus on tech and war only as needed to finish cleaning fallout. Anyway, the short term is clear ... kick butt, BLubmuz

 

[unclethrill]

Are you suggesting the AI doesn't have Ecology?

Not that I know one way or the other but in the beginning I recall a discussion about the fact that the AI can clear fallout without eco.

 

[Fluroscent]

I think we established that the AI does NOT have ecology. Instead, they have been given a reasonable amount of non-fallout tiles.
The beginning score gazing, and knowing they got certain techs made it impossible for them to have ecology.
And surely, the AI would have cleared more important tiles by now if they could. Look at France, there is a fallouted pig hill and a grassland gem in his core.

There was a discussion about AI cheating when cleaning fallout, but I think it might be unreasonable to expect, given that without the special SGOTM mod, fallout disappears naturally.

Either way, it is certainly true that we cannot rely on the AI to clear fallout for us.
And that means that our plan to grow huge is a good one, so we can build an army of workers.

As for how to proceed, I don't see how we can make military progress beyond De Gaulle right now. Nor that we want to yet since we have tons of land to settle ourselves. China has protective longbows, so we do need cannons to proceed. The fastest way to get cannons is to build gold reserves, build Oxford ASAP, then power through Engineering->Gunpowder->Chemistry->Liberalism (Steel). Or delay lib for a bigger tech if Gandhi is not close yet. I don't think we need rifles before the AI gets grenadiers/rifles themselves. For stack defense, muskets beats everything except knights, but we have elephants for those.

While finishing Oxford, and while teching for cannons, I think we should settle absolutely every damn good to decent site we can see. And build 2-3 workers/city. That would be the time to cottage up everything to fuel the push to Mining inc.

As for Stalin, selling him maps will not get him contacts. So assuming he is ocean isolated he will not get contacts before he or the AI gets caravels. Not even sure I like the idea that he is to nuke the other AI. The other AI occupy our lands, so it would be our lands he would nuke

 

[BLubmuz]

OK, a refresh on our goals is a good thing from time to time.

Now i resume mostly to my benefit.

Fluro about builds and workers (post 522)
Fluro about war tactics (post 523)

Diplo trades:
- CS+115g to G for Machinery
- Mono to Stalin for 20g
- Lit to Roos for 110g

Research:
set to 0, at least until Moscow has a Uni
switch to Lib to get the overflow, then compass-Optics, so we can have something to offer for Feud.