SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

pnp_dredd · Nov 22, 2010

update: Working unexpectadly late tonight, so not going to get to play, will try to fit it in tomorrow.

unclethrill · Nov 22, 2010

Good Luck!!

beestar · Nov 22, 2010

Cool, good luck pnp_dredd.

BLubmuz, hope things are getting better ...

pnp_dredd · Nov 23, 2010

Half-turnset check in

Turn 168 - 1080 AD: Nuthin'
1090: built 2 settlers. Mao completes Engineering but will never trade with his worst
enemy.
1100: Ghandi and De Gaulle are worst enemies
1110: Roosy still refuses to talk
1120: Complete PP, begin Liberalism at 0% while awaiting Engineering trade. We are at 706/741 to see Ghandi's research
1130: Spread Confucianism to Paris and whip Library. We are 714/746 to see Ghandi's research, so it will be 12 more turns till we can see his research (less as Courthouses come on line). Are we happy to wait 10-12 more turns to see what Ghandi is teching?

1140: Roosy's (fairly unimpressive) stack comes into view, and also he will now talk and negotiate peace. Half of our stack is positioning to take Lyons, so we aren't at 100% strength on our western front. You can see in the scereny that half our stack is in Orleans, and can get back to that hill in one. But we are 3 turns from founding the iceball, and want to take Lyons soon as everyone but De Gaulle and Stalin have longbows.

So I stopped here for a quick check in.

Roosy will give us 65 gold for Peace, so there's no chance of getting Engineering in that trade at the moment.

I reckon we just wait for Roosy's stack to come closer and then pound on it, to try to get more out of him in a peace deal. Our stack on that hill has 3 Elephants and a Mace and shouldn't be too troubled by the Knights. I propose to move the stack in Orleans into position to take Lyons in 2 turns time.

What do you all think?

Other stuff:
Rostov (the GP farm) has built Lighthouse and next turn can 2-pop whip away 2 coast tiles to complete a Courthouse. Perhaps then build settlers/workers?

Possible trades:
Literature for 120 gold from Churchill
COL for 190 gold from Mao

I've uploaded the save, so if any of you keen folk want to take a look download it here.

Mid-set log:

Spoiler :

Fluroscent · Nov 23, 2010

How about we put 10% espionage slider (if it is enough) for one turn to see Gandhi's research? I'd hate to either waste time if he is not researching engineering or waste beakers if he is.

Don't take peace yet. Keep the elephants for defense, and if possible to attack the knights at good odds, I think we should do so to:
1. Get promos for our phants, which will be needed as stack defenders in the cannon war.
2. Get more GG points.

If at all in danger of unfavorable combat, then we can just take peace then.

OK with 120 for literature. It is harmless. Not ok with trading CoL to Mao. He is a soon to be war target, so we want him backwards as much as possible. If it gets closer to 300 gold, then ok.

Agree on Rostov.

BLubmuz · Nov 23, 2010

In any case we can start GP. Engineering is a prerequisite for Chem, but we can wait until after GP to see if we can have it in trade.

So i propose: when we are at 0% let's continue Liberalism, when we have enough gold, let's start GP.

Attack the stack (BTW those knights mean Roos has Guilds, Probably not yet banking).

But probably it's better wait for it 1SW of Orleans.

We are agreed on razing Lyons, it seems.

Espionage: we're spending 8 EP/t and G. 5.
This means we need far more than 1 turn @ 10% espionage to catch him. And we still are putting 0 on the others.
So, or we rise seriously the slider 80-100%, or better save our money.

BLubmuz · Nov 23, 2010

Questions:
for which site the 2nd settler is?
Do we already have a galley to start colonizing those islands?
Wouldn't be better to send a couple workers to start scrubbing the islands sites and some valuable tile before to send a settler which can't settle?

pnp_dredd · Nov 23, 2010

Espionage: we're spending 8 EP/t and G. 5.
This means we need far more than 1 turn @ 10% espionage to catch him. And we still are putting 0 on the others.
So, or we rise seriously the slider 80-100%, or better save our money.

I'll make a call on raising the espionage slider (at work now so can't check the save). I reckon anywhere up to 50% for one turn is an acceptable cost, as it gives us important information 10 turns earlier.

We are agreed on razing Lyons, it seems.

That's the plan. Any dissent?

for which site the 2nd settler is?
Do we already have a galley to start colonizing those islands?
Wouldn't be better to send a couple workers to start scrubbing the islands sites and some valuable tile before to send a settler which can't settle?

I underestimated the time it's taken a galley from CI to travel down to pick up settlers and workers. It will be in position next turn to pick up 2 workers to take them to the "best" island site, then return for the settler. This does mean that we have a settler just sitting around, so we could use him to settle a mainland city and make another settler. FLuro's suggested city sites are here. I reckon the two cottage sites would be first priority, just due to the time it takes to get cottages working. However, we're short of workers for this plan (as 2 workers are heading to the islands). I would need to pull the two workers from Rostov to clear the city site, and they would need to stay at the new city to improve tiles (food first as always). This isn't necessarily a huge problem becuase we can now pump workers and settlers out of StP and Rostov every few turns.

Proposal: 2 workers onto galley to clear "best" island site. Pull 2 workers from Rostov to clear Fluro's "City 2 - cottages" site (2xbananas, shared elephants). Use free settler to settle this cleared site ASAP, and build another settler in StP for the island site. Then build workers in Rostov and StP unatil the end of my 'set.

Fluroscent · Nov 24, 2010

Agree with everything. Good luck!

Future note:
It seems Roosevelt is teching fast now. He does have GLH+Colossus so not really suprising. Probably would be best to aim our war machine that way before going for Churchill when we are ready.
We need to be quick about it. The optimal situation is us crippling all three of them before they reach rifling, and at least some ways before cuirassiers.

BLubmuz · Nov 24, 2010

pnp_dredd said:
That's the plan. Any dissent?

No, it's what i proposed.

Good ideas for the rest, go on, good luck!

pnp_dredd · Nov 25, 2010

Report on 2nd half of my turnset (first half here)

1150: one turn at 20% espionage slider netted us 50 extra EPs, which should be sufficient. Traded Literature for 120 gold from Churchill.
1160: First thing is that we can see Ghandi's research. Well cut off my leg and call me stumpy! He's 4 turns from Banking! However he would still needs Education before he can tech Economics. No need to panic, let's wait and see what he techs next.
Whip courthouse in Rostov
Move settler to iceball site and stack into position for Lyons
1170: Settle iceball (Vladivostok), spread Confucianism, and gift it to De Gaulle. Declare war and begin moving on Lyons.
Kill Roosy's stack (all but one injured Knight), losing one elephant in the process (at 78%)
1180: Roosy's injured Knight suicides on Orleans.
Paris has 3 unhappy faces, so I whip courthouse for 2 pop and it's happy again (for this turn anyway)
Discover a very random offshore platform while exploring the islands with our Eastern workboat.
2-pop whip forge in Orleans
1190: Mao declares war on Ghandi!
Begin Maoi Statues in Paris. We can always use the fail gold if we decide to build this elsewhere.
Reduce cultural defence in Lyons to 40%
Found Smolensk (2xbananas cottage city), begins granary
1200: Reduce Lyon's cultural defences to 10%.
Ghandi begins Divine Right
1210: 250ish fail gold from Schwegadon (thanks Ghandi).
Confucianism autospreads to our new mainland city (thanks @ RNG gods)
Raze Lyons. I suicide a couple of catapults, and lose an Elephant at ~96% odds and an Axe at ~85% (grr @ RNG gods)

...and I'm done.

Notes:
Low chances that we will trade for Engineering, unfortunately
But with Schwegadon fail gold we should now have enough cash to get us to Steel via Liberalism at 100%.
Churchill is WHEOOHRN.
Can get peace with Roosy and De Gaulle
Need to get Ironworks up in Rostov ASAP or Moscow will pop another Great Person (unless we deliberately obsolete the GLib?)
Popped another Great General

Log:

Spoiler :

Fluroscent · Nov 25, 2010

Sounds great dredd. I'll take a look at the save later.

Happy that there was no hitch in getting De Gaulle to accept the iceball.
No sweat on the losses, since we are under less pressure with Mao directing his forces against Gandhi instead, less maintenance for now is a redeeming factor as well.
We do need some elephants for stack defense against knights though. Good thing we got the extra general, as that will allow us to build formation elephants in CI (and 9XP cannons).

Unusual tech path for Gandhi. It might be hard to win economics now, but OTOH we might be able to trade for guilds+banking.

Havr, you are free to take a set now, if you don't have too much on your hands right now

Otherwise, beestar is up.

beestar · Nov 25, 2010

Interesting turnset, stumpy.

Can you use GG for Golden Ages? I've been playing Civ 5 too long and I forget

I think my original estimates were that we could afford one more GP from Moscow. How many points do we need for the current GP?

I'd still like to get the GM Econ after Steel. Maybe acquire guilds by trade then tech banking/econ?

Gandhi may ask us to DOW Mao. Are we ready to attack Mao? The diplo points would be nice, but I'm not sure our military is very large or efficient right now until Cannons.

The Offshore Platform is intriguing. You could settle there and grab oil. Maybe it's the only oil resource on the map ...

P.S. Havr better than me right now.

Fluroscent · Nov 25, 2010

Thoughts:

-Let's take peace with Roosevelt now. He has a decent chunk of gold, and techs are probably out of the question.

-Also, peace with De Gaulle. But let's whack the scout first.

-Beestar makes a very good point. Gandhi will likely ask us to join against Mao. We will want to do this for the diplo bonus, but not attack yet. We should be OK against an attack.

-We lost our trade routes to India due to the war. Not much to do about it though. He won't take a cheap bribe out.

-Paris can wait on Moai. We certainly want the forge first.

-We have sugar and incense not yet hooked. So our happy problems can be solved easily. By the way, the plains incense at Paris are great tiles to work since we have academy there. There are excess workers at Rheims that can be shipped up to Paris, since Rheims has four unworked improved tiles.

-Moscow might as well build a courthouse now. It has some yield ~2 :gold:

/turn. But we need it later anyway for corp maintenance. And the espionage is not wasted.

-Let's disband the catapult + use the two CR axes as MPs. They are little use on defense, and will be outdated when we are ready to go on the offense. We can save a heap of gold that way.

-Elephants with 10XP promotions should get formation.

-Let's improve the last hill at Rostov so it can stop working the forest. Hammers are also better than food when building settlers with IMP.

-Generally, new workers are most needed around around Smolensk. And for the islands.

-I think a slight change in island city planning is warranted with the extra fish+oil rig discovered. A city on the small island is good, and that leaves another for the larger island (remember - max 2 cities per island).

-I missed that Gandhi started DR. That means we are under little pressure regarding Economics. Maybe we can trade our way to Banking without giving up Education. That way it will be perfectly safe.

pnp_dredd · Nov 25, 2010

Fluroscent said:
-Let's disband the catapult + use the two CR axes as MPs. They are little use on defense, and will be outdated when we are ready to go on the offense. We can save a heap of gold that way.

Agree with everything else, but not sure about this if we are likely to be fighting Mao soon. Perhaps better to burn the catapult against Mao's stack?

Also, I suggest that we churn out settlers/workers over the next 15 or so turns, and start getting workers into position clearing sites on the islands. Galley turns may be a limiting factor in settling new cities: we could probably use another galley from Rostov, as they take ages to travel down from CI.

havr · Nov 26, 2010

Fluroscent said:
Havr, you are free to take a set now, if you don't have too much on your hands right now
Otherwise, beestar is up.

Sorry, too late for now. I will continue to monitor the progress, and if I have time I will write it.

beestar · Nov 27, 2010

Hey Havr, can I just confirm what you meant - if you have time you'll jump back in? In that case I'll pick up the torch for this set and come up with PPP this weekend.

beestar · Nov 28, 2010

I assume I'm playing next, so here's a PPP. By the way, other teams have much higher score and power ratings than us - looks like most teams are going warpath.

The overall strategy is to tech toward Cannons and conquer Mao with cannons/musketmen, then America, then England. Gandhi will be our best buddy and tech ally. Colonize some juicy sites to get overseas trade routes and resources for Mining / Sushi, but the priority will be to win new sites by war, not REX.

Diplo

I think we might as well declare peace with France to avoid dogpiling. Too bad Charlie won't give us Nationalism.

I'll declare peace with Roosie for World Map, 180 gold, 1 gpt. I'll get Compass, Feudalism, or Engineering if we can get it, but unlikely. We can't really beat up Roosie since Mao's in the middle, so might as well go peace with Roosie and get ready to war Mao.

England will probably declare on us at some point. Until then I'll trade him some resources for gold.

We can get Feudalism and Compass and 100 gp from Gandhi, but it will cost us Printing Press (assuming we hang on to Philo and Education). I'm tempted to go for it.

(One other option to get the techs is to bribe Mao to +4 with CoL, and get Engineering from him with Music and Civil Service. I'm not sure he would agree to this. Also, this gives Mao macemen to go along with his pikemen and cho-ko-nu - not a good idea.

Or we can bribe Churchill to be more friendly by giving him Music, and get Feudalism with Civil Service or Machinery, but it doesn't seem like a very good deal for us.)

We can agree to a war with Mao, but it's a risk - Gandhi is overseas from Mao so I bet Mao's stack is still on our continent.

Expansion

I'll mark the proposed city positions on the map and uploaded the revised save. The goals are good cities to grab metals for Mining, trade routes, and seafood for Sushi. I envision 4 island cities in this phase of expansion: the ones marked 'Tier 1' and 'Tier 2', and postponing the ones on our continent.

Proposed tech path

Engineering, Gunpowder, Chemistry (part-bulbed), Steel

... while picking up by trade

Feudalism (from Gandhi), Guilds, Banking.
Keep monitoring Gandhi's tech and get Economics first. Trade for Guilds if possible

... while picking up by trade

Compass (from Gandhi), Optics to send a missionary to Stalin.

Note that we are 23 turns from Steel, fewer after we bulb toward Chemistry. I think we can afford a detour to pick up Economics if Gandhi appears close to getting Education, and we can get Guilds or Banking in trade.

Builds

Rostov (NEpic/Ironworks). Workers, Galley, then Work Boats to get the island cities booted up. In the short term we need of workers for the islands, but Rostov will need to work a lot of workshops if we want to build Ironworks in a reasonable time (see next post). Better to get St. Pete to build workers since it's at its food cap.

Moscow: Courthouse, Workers, Work Boat for Whales after we get Optics. Is it worth growing to work more coastal tiles?

St. Petersburg: Worker pump. Grocer, Bank when available.

Cote d'Ivoire: Not a lot of hammers for a Heroic Epic city ... eventually we can put down some workshops here, fed by Sushi. I think we should cancel the cottage being built now as we'd just workshop it later. Builds: Confucian Missionary, military (Maceman, Elephant?).

Novgorod: Slow-build Forge for happiness and more hammers. Monasteries are going to expire soon, not worth getting (unless we build U. Sankore ...?). What about Academy here? It feels like bulbing Chemistry is better right now.

Yaroslavl: Grow and work cottages, slow-build forge

Paris: Build/whip Forge for happiness and hammer bonus, then go back to finishing Moai Statues.

Orleans: Continue with Courthouse, then Wealth

Rheims: Whip Courthouse, (Forge?), build Wealth

Smolensk: Clean Fallout from Bananas, grow, build Granary, Library, drop in a Cottage.

Actions

- I'll read everyone else's comments and update this (if no one else posts in the interim)
- I'll mark city locations and upload the save to the thread

beestar · Nov 28, 2010

Agreed with Fluro's and pnp_dredd's comments above. I'd like to hang on to the catapult for MP purposes in the island cities. The CR axes can be upgraded to CR2 maces while CI builds Wealth, or new units.

I was thinking about the bulb timing and Rostov. We are 23 turns from Steel, and Ironworks will take 700 hammers. Rostov can generate about 17 base hammers per turn (assuming existing tiles with no workshops), +25% OR, +25% Forge, so 25 hpt. It will take us 28 turns to build Ironworks, faster if we chop and start putting down some workshops. Add ~9 turns for National Epic. Then about 14 turns to generate a GEng. So we're about 74 turns away from that Great Engineer.

We should still bulb toward Chemistry, and I think we can Academy the next one. It'll help to have enhanced workshops - getting Guilds after Steel and switching to Caste System will help.

I've attached the save with city sites marked. No actions made.

P.S. I forgot to say it earlier, but congratulations havr!

Fluroscent · Nov 28, 2010

Lots of comments

First off, Havr, congratulations! Speak up whenever you feel ready to re-enter the rotation.

City sites

One important point - Three cities on the same landmass will incur colonial maintenance. This is not worth it unless we want to spawn a colony. So we must limit our expansion of the large island to two cities.
And when it comes to resources, the sushi ones are not important, the mining ones are. Sushi is just a way of growing food poor cities with this plan, and we will have more than enough seafood for this.

So: A city 1W of the spices will grab both metals in the 3rd ring and allow a second city by the southern copper by the crabs.

Also, a city on the closer island, on the ruins by the pigs is definitely worth it.

PPP comments

I think we might as well declare peace with France to avoid dogpiling. Too bad Charlie won't give us Nationalism.

Wait one turn, kill the scout (and the archer if it comes closer), then take peace.

We can get Feudalism and Compass and 100 gp from Gandhi, but it will cost us Printing Press (assuming we hang on to Philo and Education). I'm tempted to go for it.

Those techs do nothing for us yet, so let's wait. There might be better trade options later.

(One other option to get the techs is to bribe Mao to +4 with CoL, and get Engineering from him with Music and Civil Service. I'm not sure he would agree to this. Also, this gives Mao macemen to go along with his pikemen and cho-ko-nu - not a good idea.

Agree, not a good idea. Let's keep our cannon war targets as backwards as possible. Same with Churchill.

We can agree to a war with Mao, but it's a risk - Gandhi is overseas from Mao so I bet Mao's stack is still on our continent.

I hope he asks us to join in. Good way to get diplo points to counteract the negatives from religion. We can handle anything on defense. And we might get that last GG for CR3 cannons if we are lucky. By the way, settle the one in Moscow in CI too.

Engineering, Gunpowder, Chemistry (part-bulbed), Steel

... while picking up by trade

Feudalism (from Gandhi), Guilds, Banking.
Keep monitoring Gandhi's tech and get Economics first. Trade for Guilds if possible

... while picking up by trade

Compass (from Gandhi), Optics to send a missionary to Stalin.

Should be - Engineering, Gunpowder, Chemistry (part-bulbed), Liberalism (Steel)
And again, let's not pull the trigger on trades that do nothing for us. Ideally, we can trade all the way to banking. And later for nationalism+constitution (since they won't be monopolized).
Only detour before steel as a last resort. We need to get to steel ASAP, to start the cannon war and to get the GE.

Builds

I think we should save the hammers and build the 2nd galley in CI. With the 3rd general settled, it can get navigation I for the extra movement.
The one we have down there can do the job alone for now.
Wealth can be substituted with Moai for fail gold while Paris builds forge.

Rostov: some workers (2-3) are in order, but then growing is needed (workshops good, and to whip). Workboats we need are a good idea. Or missionaries. Or just wealth.

Moscow: Yes, it is worth growing. Size 16 before workers for now to work all coast and all land tiles. And larger after we pop the GE so we can run scientists. Build wealth after courthouse (or workboats/missionaries). Since Moscow has great base hammers, it is also the place to build settlers with IMP, if we are ready to expand further.

CI: Keep the cottage, it can be handed to the yet-unsettled nearby city later. Use this opportunity where we don't need builds to switch from mines to coast for growth. Missionaries don't get HE bonus, so build them elsewhere. We need some more elephants for stack defence in the cannon war (against knights). So one galley, then elephants until gunpowder, then muskets.

Orleans: Build FP after courthouse. It is the best choice for FP since it is close to all of China.

Rheims: Library and forge after courthouse.

Agree with rest.

I'd like to hang on to the catapult for MP purposes in the island cities. The CR axes can be upgraded to CR2 maces while CI builds Wealth, or new units.

CR is an almost useless promotion since our cannons will do all the damage, apart from the finishing blows. Upgrading the axes would be a huge waste of money.
Send the axes as MPs, and the cat too I guess, it is the only use that makes them worth keeping rather than deleting.

Let's worry about the next GP later, since it is beyond this set. Stick with the current bulb chemistry plan.

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