SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

[beestar]

City placement.

OK on moving the Big Island City so that two metals are in the third ring. Note we can accept colonial maintenance if it pays off for us. For example, we can settle 2 cities now, and only the 3rd when we need the benefits. (BTW I believe the game won't let us spawn a colony because vassals are off).

Sushi is valuable - it allows covering an entire BFC with workshops. This is great for our final spaceship build.

Fluro, why do you like the city on Close Island next to the pigs? It gets us no corp resources, and it's just a pig and a bunch of hammers. If we don't found it, then Oil City can work the sheep.

Diplo.

- I think we should trade Alpha and Aesthetics to Stalin to get his gold, get him friendlier, and get his map. He still hasn't met anyone yet.

- Once Gandhi is Pleased, will beg gold.

War.

- Okay on delaying peace for 1 turn to wipe out a few more units; no promotion for axes; settle GG in CI.

Techs.

- Feudalism is a necessary tech on the path to Economics, and it opens up trading for Guilds. Compass is on the path to Optics (befriending Stalin) and Astro (Observatory, etc.). We really need to understand what Stalin represents in this game - is he totally unassailable, etc. Right now Stalin is a great source of trading gold ... he doesn't even have Alphabet. There's nothing Gandhi has which he would trade for us - anything else is too expensive for him to give us for PP, and nothing else is open to him.

- Right, Liberalism for Steel, get the cannon war started sooner. So Steel is only 16 turns away, not 23.

Builds.

OK on most of the points. I really like the idea of building Moai instead of Wealth for massive OR and Stone bonus to fail gold. Eventually Paris will complete the build.

CI will obviously pump out military non-stop (focusing on siege), but in terms of units we've only got 4 WE, 2 HA, and 3 macemen, and 1 Xbow. Seems a bit slim. What about a few muskets in Moscow while CI builds Cannons? Also, if we start with Trebs as soon as Engineering is done, we can upgrade them later. More expensive, but it can build up the army quicker.

On to the details. Any suggestions on where to squeeze in the other settler build?

Spoiler :

Moscow: Moai failgold, Courthouse, Muskets, Workers after size 16

CI: Elephant, Treb, Treb, Muskets, Cannons

Orleans: Courthouse, FP

Rheims: Courthouse, Forge, Library (gain +25% hammers quicker. Fluro: why Library before Forge?)

Rostov: Worker, Settler, Workboats. It's a lot closer to build the Galley down south, and by not building workers we get Rostov growing faster.

Paris: Slowbuild Forge, then finish Moai when we need the fail gold to cash in.

St. Pete: Worker, Settler, Workers, Grocer, Bank as discussed

Yaroslavl, Novgorod: Forge as discussed

Smolensk: Granary, Library as discussed.

 

[BLubmuz]

Things seem to go a little better here, maybe i can be back on full sooner than i thought. Fingers crossed.

But i can always comment.

Congrats Havr, pity you left us in 5 effective players (with the captain out for awhile, 4 at present).

I noticed also UT is not so active. Not usual for him. Problems?

Well, it seems a good plan, mainly after Fluro's adjustements.

Since vassals are disabled can anyone verify if the colonial maintenance still applies? Just an idea, but i think it's worth a test.

I think that building Trebs to upgrade to cannons is a good idea. Provided i remember correctly, it's one of the cheapest upgrades. A quick test can confirm. Just WB a treb, give yourself Steel (and Iron, which is needed to build cannons) and a bunch of gold, so we can know for sure.

I also agree that our army is a bit slim to afford an extended war. We need a big stack to attack, maybe even 2 cities at once and 1-2 smaller stacks to keep in the newly conquered ones, also to avoid backstabbing from Chur or Roos. And don't forget our attackers must heal, so we need a lot of troops. I don't like muskets, i always see them easily beaten by knights and maces. Better some solid mace. Phants are good for stack defense and they can be (expensively) upgraded to Cossacks, provided we go for MT.

I also like the PP for Feud+compass trading. Unfortunately i doubt both Roos and Charlie will give us techs for peace.

Good idea sell obsolete techs to Stalin for gold and possibly try to spread Confu. It's a lot of gold if we think at the turns we need to wipe him. And if we keep his cities they will be already converted.

Not much to add, i think. Good Luck!

 

[Fluroscent]

OK on moving the Big Island City so that two metals are in the third ring. Note we can accept colonial maintenance if it pays off for us. For example, we can settle 2 cities now, and only the 3rd when we need the benefits. (BTW I believe the game won't let us spawn a colony because vassals are off).

Agree, if we do need the benefits of a 3rd later. But I can hardly see how, except if capturing an AI city or something.

Sushi is valuable - it allows covering an entire BFC with workshops. This is great for our final spaceship build.

100% agree. However, that benefit is easily accomplished by the number of seafood we will have without seeking out additional resources. More will just mean higher maintenance.

Fluro, why do you like the city on Close Island next to the pigs? It gets us no corp resources, and it's just a pig and a bunch of hammers. If we don't found it, then Oil City can work the sheep.

Because it is a generally useful site. I agree not top priority, but will still payoff. And the oil city can work the sheep either way. We want to expand as much as possible this game.

- I think we should trade Alpha and Aesthetics to Stalin to get his gold, get him friendlier, and get his map. He still hasn't met anyone yet.

Yes, agree.

no promotion for axes

Just to be clear, no upgrades for any units, at any time. It is simply a horrible way to manage resources unless commerce is abundant but production is lacking.

- Feudalism is a necessary tech on the path to Economics, and it opens up trading for Guilds. Compass is on the path to Optics (befriending Stalin) and Astro (Observatory, etc.). We really need to understand what Stalin represents in this game - is he totally unassailable, etc. Right now Stalin is a great source of trading gold ... he doesn't even have Alphabet. There's nothing Gandhi has which he would trade for us - anything else is too expensive for him to give us for PP, and nothing else is open to him.

Of course it is necessary, but making the trade now rather than later (when we are in position to trade for the useful techs it opens up) will just advance the AI pace from discounts etc. And we might get more gold later.

CI will obviously pump out military non-stop (focusing on siege), but in terms of units we've only got 4 WE, 2 HA, and 3 macemen, and 1 Xbow. Seems a bit slim. What about a few muskets in Moscow while CI builds Cannons? Also, if we start with Trebs as soon as Engineering is done, we can upgrade them later. More expensive, but it can build up the army quicker.

No to upgrading, it is horribly expensive. Much better to build units and not build wealth then.
Good point on muskets. When we have gunpowder, muskets could be built anywhere with a barracks (probably should anywhere that would build wealth otherwise, to make numbers). They don't need many promotions to do their job of making up uncounterable numbers.
My suggestion only went as to what CI would build until Steel, where it should probably build some 20-30 cannons without pause . Stand by the phants-muskets until then.

Fluro: why Library before Forge?

Library is cheaper (CRE) and has a greater payoff. But either way is fine.

Moscow: Moai failgold, Courthouse, Muskets, Workers after size 16

CH first is better right? And a settler could surely be squeezed in here, getting a huge bonus from all the hammers going through BUR/IMP. In that case, I'd stick to workers in StP, since we cannot afford to skimp on them.

 

[Fluroscent]

I don't like muskets, i always see them easily beaten by knights and maces. Better some solid mace. Phants are good for stack defense and they can be (expensively) upgraded to Cossacks, provided we go for MT.

Let's examine how we will use the units. Cannons will attack cities until the defenders are so weak it does not matter what we clean up with, unless it is low strength units like pikes/XBows which might get dicey odds.
So the primary function of our non-cannon units is to make up numbers and to defend the stack from counterattacks while we march to the cities. And we need units to leave behind in captured cities
What will we be attacked by?
Knights (and HA): Phants (with formation) are the best option.
Catapults: Muskets are best at base. But maces can get charge to be stronger.
Melee (Axe/mace): Muskets are best (only XBows rival, and they are not reliable cleanup units).
XBows(Chu-ko-nu): Muskets are by far best.

For defense of captured cities: Muskets can get CG to deal with anything. Maybe a phant to deal with flanking knights.

For numbers: Maces cost 80, Muskets 90, Elephants 60.

So I think mostly phants/muskets to make numbers is best. But a few maces is ok, namely a couple of charge promoted ones.

And remember, cannons have 12 str, so the defenders will need promotions/defensive terrain to be chosen as defenders. We want our cannons non-damaged if possible.

 

[BLubmuz]

Muskets are good for stack defence in the field, but fortified in a city they are equals to LBs. Despite a base strenght of 6 to 9, the LB has a +50% for city and another 25% (or 50% - can't remember - if on a hill). So, they are exactly equals in a flatland city, but the LB is better in a hill city. The musket remains better in the field.

The musket is cheaper to upgrade, but i think that if we ever upgrade units to Rifles, those will be CR maces. A CR3 Rifle is almost unbeatable on attack.

 

[Fluroscent]

Muskets are good for stack defence in the field, but fortified in a city they are equals to LBs. Despite a base strenght of 6 to 9, the LB has a +50% for city and another 25% (or 50% - can't remember - if on a hill). So, they are exactly equals in a flatland city, but the LB is better in a hill city. The musket remains better in the field.

Yes, LBs are good for city defense, but they suck as cleanup units, risking loss vs softened defenders. So I wouldn't put longbows in our stack, but of course, I am only talking about temporary city defense when a city is open to attack when our stack moves on. We can bring in LB MPs to free up the muskets while warring.

And again, I love using CR maces to upgrade in normal war games, when tech pace does not matter much after rifling. But when we are in a space race, I really don't want to burn that much gold on unit upgrades. Cannons should hold sufficient offensive power for our purposes.

 

[unclethrill]

I'm still around and reading. Trying to finish a term paper.

 

[beestar]

Building one or two trebs now, +80 gold each, gives us a cannon. This lets us start the war much sooner. Otherwise we just delay the war while we wait for our cannons to accumulate. We've got plenty of gold. Production will be limited after Steel.

Of course it is necessary, but making the trade now rather than later (when we are in position to trade for the useful techs it opens up) will just advance the AI pace from discounts etc. And we might get more gold later.

Trading for Feudalism and Compass: It's only Gandhi who can benefit directly, and we want him to be our advanced friend. We'll be trying to get Guilds from someone other than Gandhi, anyway, so we can trade away the same midlevel techs to that AI.

CH first is better right? And a settler could surely be squeezed in here, getting a huge bonus from all the hammers going through BUR/IMP. In that case, I'd stick to workers in StP, since we cannot afford to skimp on them.

We need a city to start on Moai this turn, while Paris switches to building a Forge. All the other cities are building higher priority builds, so might as well be Moscow. We can afford a few turns of non-Courthouse maintenance, and switch to the Courthouse just before Moai is finished.

 

[BLubmuz]

I agree for the trade with G.

Not sure about the need to build Moai for failure gold and delaying a settler and a CH.

You can also use the trick to partially build the units we need starting a new one 1 turn to completion. This will save us some maintenance since we don't need the new units soon.

I think that 80g is a good price to pay given our target. 3-4 trebs can be enough and surely won't ruin our economy.

What about go for Optics after compass? (provided we trade for it) the bonus is always a good thing, mainly with all those islands.

Befriend Stalin if possible, but never give him our WM. Better, never give our WM to anyone.

 

[beestar]

I think we can delay teching Optics until we build up our Cannon army. Same goes with Economics though we should trade toward it as possible.

I'd prefer to do Moai only when we are building Wealth in a coastal city, but do note that the multipliers are amazing (+25% OR, +50% stone relative to building Wealth directly).

Partial builds are a good idea.

More comments from the others? I'm aiming to play tomorrow (Tuesday) night GMT. I can do 15-20 turns with a stop in between once something interesting happens.

 

[Fluroscent]

Fine do the trade. Not a big deal. But don't be under the illusion that we will be able to trade with anyone else. It's not going to happen. Extorting something might be possible though.

If you really want to build trebs, go ahead. But I still think it is a rotten deal. What is it four gold for one hammer or something? And to top it off, one gold paid is worth more than two beakers. So essentially unit upgrades cost some eight times as much as the gold value (if building wealth for comparison) of the hammer difference. Not sure about numbers, but it is something in that vein.

 

[BLubmuz]

I agree that the only tech trades will be with G. unless we manage to extort some tech for peace.

Sorry, but i don't understand your reasoning about gold/hammers. Is it related to Moai or to Trebs?

If we build Moai for failure gold, we have any hammer *1.25 (OR)+*2 (stone). Thus any hammer will net us 2.25 gold. If we build Moai for 1-2 turns in any city we can have a nice amount of gold. In Moscow we have the *1.50 for Bureau, but this applies also to gold, so it's unchanged, but only if we build wealth.

If it's for Trebs, i can't see the point. But having 3-4 of them ready means we can start the war early, with obvious benefits to our growth.

We need also a settler ready for another iceball, so better start find another spot.

BTW, i *probably* can be ready when my turn comes, things are moving faster and better - you can see by my posting frequency.

Good luck, Beestar! just try to remember you're playing good ol' CIV, not that stupid Civ5.

What the Hell are Plastic Ducks and OSS doing to be so high in score and power?

 

[beestar]

Sorry guys, won't be able to play tonight due to work, but will get the first half of the turnset done tomorrow (Wed) night.

 

[pnp_dredd]

Been away on business for a few days. I support building a few Trebs for upgrading, and pre-building a few to 1-turn-left, in order to get the next war started ASAP. Grabbing those Chinese cities a few turns earlier is worth a lot.

 

[beestar]

I stopped at Turn 191 after liberalism to Steel, to decide what our next tech should be. We scored Engineering, Gunpowder, Chemistry (part-bulbed), Liberalism -> Steel.

techs

We can run about 5 more turns at 100% gold (time to complete Moai in Paris). We can self-tech Guilds in 2 turns, Banking in 2 turns, then Economics in 4 turns. Gandhi's not close - he's 5 turns from Divine Right and still needs Education before Economics (though today's critics of the financial crisis might disagree)

We can also trade Engineering +350gp to Gandhi for Guilds, which seems acceptable since others already have Engineering. I'd rather part-tech Guilds, and trade Engineering for Guilds + gold.

We can get Optics in 1 turn with the current overflow, Astro in 7 turns. Astro would be good for trading resources to Stalin, and reopening trade routes with Gandhi. We have a lot of trade route potential that is being wasted right now.

I suggest Optics, 1 turn of Guilds then trading for the remainder with Gandhi, Astro, Banking, then Economics. Meanwhile we build cannons like crazy.

diplo

No requests or demands. Neither Roosevelt nor de Gaulle were willing to offer techs for peace, though we did get decent cash out of Roosevelt.

We are worst enemy of Roosevelt, Churchill, CDG, and Stalin.

I traded Alpha, Aesthetics, and Math to Stalin for small amounts of gold but he refused to budge above +1 fair trading. We'll need resource trades or shared religion to get him higher.

We should agree to minor tech demands from Stalin. He would be a decent trade partner to beg gold from / sell crap techs to, if we can get him happier (Caravel with Confucian Missionary into his territory, gift the Caravel and Missionary ...)

production

Starting on FP (Orleans) and Ironworks (Rostov).

We produced 2 more elephants, a musketman, and a single treb (due to timing of when the techs came in). CI can produce a cannon every 3 turns.

Orenburg is settled on the big island, a settler is 4 turns away from settling the oil rig island, and we have a second settler on the way to the big island (spices, metals). This should be really good for our trade routes.

Once we have Guilds I would consider revolting to CS to accelerate workshop production for Rostov. Rostov building Ironworks and National Epic is the limiting step to the long term plan. In the short term ... CANNONS. We have enough workers - I recommend that we start Moscow and St. Pete's building cannons as well, acknowledging that they will be less promoted.

 

[beestar]

Actions: The whole turnset took about an hour to play, so I'm happy to continue tomorrow if the team is OK with the general plan.

P.S. Any ideas for tricky things we can do with Privateers? Once we get Astronomy we'll be the terror of the seas.

 

[BLubmuz]

I stopped at Turn 191 after liberalism to Steel, to decide what our next tech should be. We scored Engineering, Gunpowder, Chemistry (part-bulbed), Liberalism -> Steel.

techs

We can run about 5 more turns at 100% gold (time to complete Moai in Paris). We can self-tech Guilds in 2 turns, Banking in 2 turns, then Economics in 4 turns. Gandhi's not close - he's 5 turns from Divine Right and still needs Education before Economics (though today's critics of the financial crisis might disagree)

We can also trade Engineering +350gp to Gandhi for Guilds, which seems acceptable since others already have Engineering. I'd rather part-tech Guilds, and trade Engineering for Guilds + gold.

We can get Optics in 1 turn with the current overflow, Astro in 7 turns. Astro would be good for trading resources to Stalin, and reopening trade routes with Gandhi. We have a lot of trade route potential that is being wasted right now.

I suggest Optics, 1 turn of Guilds then trading for the remainder with Gandhi, Astro, Banking, then Economics. Meanwhile we build cannons like crazy.

Seems a good half TS!
From which turn did you started? I have to update page 1, in the meantime, be patient.

I think Optics must be our first tech, then a caravel. Circum is useful even if we are in a sort of Pangea.
No point in trade Eng to G if we can research Guilds in 2 turns. Unless by researching at 40-50% for 1 turn will allow the trade + gold for us. Not sure about this...

I think the Economics path after Optics, then Astro.

Have you located a site for the Chinese iceball? We can settle it after few turns of war. Then we need to have Mao down to 1 city and offer it after or in the peace deal.

No point in gifting caravel+missionary to Stalin. The last thing we want is having him know the map. Maybe in few turns he becomes "friendly" enough to give us OB. Otherwise, it's 1 gpt, we're not ruined by missing it.

 

[unclethrill]

Have you located a site for the Chinese iceball? We can settle it after few turns of war. Then we need to have Mao down to 1 city and offer it after or in the peace deal.

Is it possible to give him the iceball city before we DoW him? Then we could just roll through and not have to get peace until he was wiped.

 

[beestar]

Hi guys, to answer the questions:

If I count it correctly, I played Turns 182 (1220AD) to 191 (1300AD?)

Haven't found a Chinese iceball yet, though I think the need for it is probably >20 turns away (to make 10 cannons - more is better). Any thoughts?

We can research Guilds in 2 turns (1560 beakers), but if we can trade for it then we can put our 1560 beakers into something else. I would actually run 100% science (-150 gold deficit) to tech 500 beakers into Guilds, and then trade for the remainder of the tech from Gandhi plus his gold. In turn we recycle the gold we receive from Gandhi into even more beakers at our high gold-to-beaker conversion rate.

BLubmuz, you're right, we definitely don't want to gift the Caravel to Stalin.

 

[Fluroscent]

Sounds good so far.

Techs:
I don't like astro at all, it is very expensive and is off the mining path. Optics is ok for circumnavigation which will help shipping stuff around islands.
Optics->Guilds, partly, then trade with no gold loss like suggested. Then see if banking could be tradable soon (Either G has it, or goes for it after DR). If it is, start on the railroad path (Replacable Parts->Steam Power) until tradable. If not, self-research it. Then obviously economics afterwards. Send the mechant around the globe on a caravel and trade mission with Gandhi.
Then finish railroad path. Then we can see if nationalism is tradable (will be when G has it), then constitution (maybe extortable from Roosevelt, if we can war fast enough, or trade with G), then corporation -> found mining!

Stalin:
I would not go out of my way to please that guy. He is not going to be trading techs with us, and techs for gold can happen no matter his attitude.
He barely cares about religion, it will only be a +1 bonus for a long while. Not worth a caravel+missionary, especially since we want to build military now.

Iceball for Mao:
No reason to worry about a location. There is definitely enough room up north.
I don't like paying maintenance for a useless city during the war. We can surely leave him some city to be taken a bit later while we press on against Roosevelt when that time comes.

Production:
Didn't check save. But what numbers are we looking at to start warring? We probably need more than our current standing forces of support to comfortably begin. Maybe build 4-5 muskets in StP/Moscow before they can help with cannons?
Paris can also be a military city at this stage. And some of the smaller cities could whip a musket to help. We do need numbers to wipe stacks that our cannons have softened, and to leave behind as temporary garrisons, and to cover our flank against Churchill.
Do we have workboats for our island cities? Build in StP/Moscow if not.

Rostov: Let's chop the forests into IW. Maybe we should farm some more so we can whip more pop? Not sure a revolution is worth it, quite a big hit it is. Alternatively, we tech nationalism and hit a golden age for revolting, but I'd prefer that to be later, when we have captured MoM from Churchill.