SGOTM 12 - Regular
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Well there not much good in the cinema right now anyway.
zerksees
in remission
Nice job guys. I have had weeks of entertainment watching your game.
Actually after the game we came to the point that we'd better gone straight after Egypt, Hittites and Mongols just to use our forces on their way to France and have enough towns for the FP, which caused quite a delay in our quest.
So there's still lots of room for improvement...
WackenOpenAir
Deity
Congratulations guys.
Yes, there was room for improvement. More towns before Paris would have been a good option for the FP and for unit support. That would have required patience however. We didn't have patience at that time because we thought France would soon have salpeter.
We would not have done it so soon without TGL because we thought they would have salpeter. Upon finding out they don't have salpeter, maybe we would.
TGL is also important yes. If we had not found it with our neighbours, i am sure we would have made it a primary target to capture. TGL allowed us to take Paris early and to move more freely and capture only the cities we really want rather than the closest, unfertile or corrupt lands without falling behind in territory graph.
Yes, there was room for improvement. More towns before Paris would have been a good option for the FP and for unit support. That would have required patience however. We didn't have patience at that time because we thought France would soon have salpeter.
We would not have done it so soon without TGL because we thought they would have salpeter. Upon finding out they don't have salpeter, maybe we would.
TGL is also important yes. If we had not found it with our neighbours, i am sure we would have made it a primary target to capture. TGL allowed us to take Paris early and to move more freely and capture only the cities we really want rather than the closest, unfertile or corrupt lands without falling behind in territory graph.
Andronicus
Emperor
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2005
- Messages
- 1,672
Spooks first attempt at Paris was unsuccessful with insufficient troops, but attempted because 1) it was assumed Gyathaar would have placed salt on the hill SW of Paris so was hurried to attempt before Joan learned guns and 2) to use the early leader for FP (he sat around quite a while). IMO taking Egypt on the way to Paris (Thebes rich gems made it the 3rd strongest commerce city behind Paris and the capital) in retrospect would have been the best option.
As noted above getting 2nd tier techs was possible, but a bit of a hit and miss affair. It was possible to decrease the odds of a non essential tech (eg dont trade for nationalism, just steam and medicine to get better odds of useful tech) but if unlucky could end up with ironclads
.I think the most critical factors is Spook's early win were early FP in Paris allowing it to be developed with both science wonders, and dedicated 1 turn worker factor in capital (in addition to workers elsewhere) allowing rapid pop boost once hospitals became avail.
Of course if you read all 1265 posts in Spook's thread you will probably glean a lot more.
Anyway congrats on your excellent effort
edit crossposted with WOA
eldar
ChiefTank
lurker's comment: Well played!
Congratulations!
It was so fascinating to watch your game. I liked very much your early decision to use some 1 turn archers rather than 2 turns swords.
I would say you played the best or near the best. Beating Klarius is a great achievement.
IMO, Spooks getting GLH so early turned to be unbeatable in principle, but it was just a luck. A free early GLH on this map is certainly unbalancing.
On the other hand it was your luck of getting a perfectly timed GA. You tried to delay it, but for this game you got the best possible timing. You shaved so many turns of the early Middle Age, where most teams were stuck for a lot of turns, (plus developed quickly during MA) that nobody had a chance to make up for it, not even Klarius with all his clever tricks. But again, you triggered your GA unintentionally.
It was also very funny to watch the GA-phobia displayed by all teams. It would be well justified under another winning condition, but in this game the price of delaying it beyond Education was too high. For example, it looks to me that by having GA in the very beginning of MA would allow Spooks to both get Egypt, India and capture Paris not worrying about France saltpeter at all. Having a FP in Paris 25 turns earlier would more than make up for not having the GA later on. Interestingly, they did not consider it at all.
At any rate it was a great game to watch, and your team was one of the most interesting to watch. Thank you!
It was so fascinating to watch your game. I liked very much your early decision to use some 1 turn archers rather than 2 turns swords.
I would say you played the best or near the best. Beating Klarius is a great achievement.
IMO, Spooks getting GLH so early turned to be unbeatable in principle, but it was just a luck. A free early GLH on this map is certainly unbalancing.
On the other hand it was your luck of getting a perfectly timed GA. You tried to delay it, but for this game you got the best possible timing. You shaved so many turns of the early Middle Age, where most teams were stuck for a lot of turns, (plus developed quickly during MA) that nobody had a chance to make up for it, not even Klarius with all his clever tricks. But again, you triggered your GA unintentionally.
It was also very funny to watch the GA-phobia displayed by all teams. It would be well justified under another winning condition, but in this game the price of delaying it beyond Education was too high. For example, it looks to me that by having GA in the very beginning of MA would allow Spooks to both get Egypt, India and capture Paris not worrying about France saltpeter at all. Having a FP in Paris 25 turns earlier would more than make up for not having the GA later on. Interestingly, they did not consider it at all.
At any rate it was a great game to watch, and your team was one of the most interesting to watch. Thank you!
Well observed.
As I said, lots of room for improvement...
Most of the trouble with Joan getting guns was self-induced: we had given her invention to make her get gunpowder before we decided to finsih her before she got it
PaperBeetle
Emperor
Some good thoughts msch. Certainly I agree (with hindsight) that the GA must be used to get to Education as fast as possible, and in that respect we did have it at a good time. When I saw in the QSC results that many other teams had got Theology as their free tech, and we had Chivalry, I thought the game was lost.
Also with regards to the Lighthouse, I am sure archphoenix propsed most or all of the elements to carry off such a plan. Somehow we managed not to act on his suggestions
. I think we expected the AI to get Mapping sooner for one thing, so we didn't want to waste our free tech on it. Anyway, the best combo would be to use the power of Constantinople to get the Lighthouse, and the power of an Aztec GA to let them get Zeus.
But I don't really regret leaving Paris in AI hands. The French researched at least a couple of techs for us, and if we had managed them better they could have done a couple of more. Of course it is important to put the effort saved into other projects, and we did go off the boil in the mid game; we were trying to concentrate on expanding south, but the Portuguese, Romans and Koreans kept distracting us. These people just don't know their place!
Also with regards to the Lighthouse, I am sure archphoenix propsed most or all of the elements to carry off such a plan. Somehow we managed not to act on his suggestions
. I think we expected the AI to get Mapping sooner for one thing, so we didn't want to waste our free tech on it. Anyway, the best combo would be to use the power of Constantinople to get the Lighthouse, and the power of an Aztec GA to let them get Zeus.But I don't really regret leaving Paris in AI hands. The French researched at least a couple of techs for us, and if we had managed them better they could have done a couple of more. Of course it is important to put the effort saved into other projects, and we did go off the boil in the mid game; we were trying to concentrate on expanding south, but the Portuguese, Romans and Koreans kept distracting us. These people just don't know their place!
I think our conquest went roughly in that order:
Aztec (good)
Japan (good)
India (good i believe)
Maya (we should have gone Egypt here)
Inca
Portugal (that were 3 relatively useless nations)
Egypt (much to late)
Persia (ok)
Mongol/Hittite (the best available at that time?)
Dutch (maybe earlier? actually they were quite productive in the end)
Rome (Well that was more retaliation expedition)
Korea (stupid I think, either go earlier that we can conquer 3 cities or leave them to France. We locked a lot of units in the middle of nowhere for several turns.)
some small nations to get to the tile limit. (good)
Carthage (should have gone America--> Viking instead Carthage was a logistics nightmare, and they almost had all there landsquares covered with units)
Viking (good)
So overall I would say quite some room for improvement, but without the benefit of hindsight its tough to say.
Aztec (good)
Japan (good)
India (good i believe)
Maya (we should have gone Egypt here)
Inca
Portugal (that were 3 relatively useless nations)
Egypt (much to late)
Persia (ok)
Mongol/Hittite (the best available at that time?)
Dutch (maybe earlier? actually they were quite productive in the end)
Rome (Well that was more retaliation expedition)
Korea (stupid I think, either go earlier that we can conquer 3 cities or leave them to France. We locked a lot of units in the middle of nowhere for several turns.)
some small nations to get to the tile limit. (good)
Carthage (should have gone America--> Viking instead Carthage was a logistics nightmare, and they almost had all there landsquares covered with units)
Viking (good)
So overall I would say quite some room for improvement, but without the benefit of hindsight its tough to say.
