SGOTM 12 - Unusual Suspects

[kcd_swede]

I don't know what is wrong with my game but when I load the test save I get this



as you see there is no interface to play the game!

This is in any SG12 mod game I start!

I suggest you either PM AlanH or ask in the Maintenance thread. Normal BUFFY games work as they should, right?

 

[kcd_swede]

OK, here is a proposal for PPP to t59 or t62 (using test save turn numbers, subtract one for real game):

City builds:
finish archer2 (garrison)> workboat3 to explore (4t) > Library (5t) > t59: settler (5t) or lighthouse (6t), the lighthouse times well imo with masonry complete and can whip lighthouse with 11 overflow to settler or GLH.

Tech:
writing (7t) > Sailing (7?) > Masonry(2)

Improvements/worker moves:
cow, cow road, river mine, cow, FO (last remaining)

From here we can rapidly build settlers, hire scientists, or whatever...

Cause for Pause:
AI-AI contact
Contact with AI unit (not ghandi)
GLH BIAFAL

Other:
Watch game log carefully for wonder builds, religions founded etc.
Follow demo screen (screenshot at end)


EDIT:
alternative is warrior(garrison)>wb3> 12h into Chariot then swap to Library>LH 2pop whip at t61 with 27 overflow to whatever (GLH or settler).

Or do we want settler earlier and stop growth below unhealth cap? Settler before library really delays buildings of library + lighthouse... if GLH race is tight this is risky. But in real game... how fast are the wonders going?

Also note... instead of wb3 there can be a unit of other type (archer/chariot), which is the way to go if we do the settler first. But I think the wb is a fast way to explore. If we are going to pop6 before settler build, then it works best in my tests.

 

[kcd_swede]

Is anyone making a test save from where Yamps stopped? Or still using the one made earlier?
Mike

Yamps attached one in post #184 this thread.

I've added the elephants and other revealed terrein here:

View attachment 267065

 

[The Simple Mind]

do we want settler earlier

I think we do, so that we can build/whip library in city2 asap. We need the capital to build lighthouse & GLH so wont be running scientists there any time soon and it has plenty of good tiles for us to work.

City builds:
finish archer2 (garrison)> workboat3

What about warrior x 2 > wb3? We only need warriors for garrison at the moment (famous last words ). The second warrior can explore then garrison city 2. Or build chariot instead of warrior2.

Tech:
writing (7t) > Sailing (7?) > Masonry(2)

Not sure what if anything moving the settler forward would have on this. Are we likely to get any discount on writing for other civs knowing it by co-ordinating its completion with the settler build?

 

[Yamps]

Lighthouse first would allow slave overflow from library into Great Lighthouse.

Do note that the Creative bonus wouldn't go into the GLH...

@kcd

Seems like I a good plan. I agree with getting the WB out for exploring, we need that. Post that test game save, I'll do some test now as well.

EDIT:
At what pop size are you whipping? Since we have 6 good tiles, size 7 should be the right size to crank the whip. Also note that we have 2 more FO, I'm guessing you are talking about the plains FO to build the mine there.

@IS

I'm sometimes getting that error as well, most often after loading games from different mods. Did you try ALT+TAB to Win and ALT+TAB back to the game? This gets the interface back for me when it happens.

 

[Yamps]

@kcd

If you switch the tile from cows to clam when workers finish it, library is well timed:

Warrior->WB->Library->Lighthouse

Writing->Sailing->Masonry

Builds are done exactly in time with the techs this way. I wouldn't whip anything before size 7. All tiles have good yield and we have no granary. If we whip too soon, the GLH will be delayed.

---------

I've done some calculations regrading Pottery vs Writing. Writing cost 187 , with having Pottery it would be +20% on our total beaker output making the raw cost 156 Library will yield 7 beakers/turn, quickly making up for the cost.

I've compared the two options at T61:

With the above plan, we are 7 turns to size 6 7, 3t to lighthouse with 35 beakers/turn and 11 turns to Alpha. (if we go for that)

The alternative with pottery instead of writing and granary instead of library in capital gives 4 turns to size 6 7, 2t to LH but only 28 beakers/turn and 3 turns to Writing and 16 turns to Alpha after that.

The alternative plan would however get us the GLH faster. There's a difference of 31 after the settler whip that granary could save and also from 3 turns difference to size 6. Hard to say, but that should be just a few turns in the end. Gamble in favor to more beakers, +25% form Lib in capital is significant.

EDIT:

Did a longer test with the attached save and built the GLH at T80. Some notes:

• Not much use of the earlier settler whip since we can't settle on fallout! We have to time with worker actions too.
  
• At T80, the AI doesn't have Writing yet so Alpha isn't useful for peace bribing yet.
  
• We'll need a chariot to kill roaming scouts/archers. In the test save at around T70, we'll see about the real game when we explore more.

EDIT2:

I've updated the roster on the front page as well. With TSM skipped and Kcd_swede up for play, Mike it's you 'on deck!'.

Indiansmoke
Narri
Yamps: just played
The Simple Mind: skipped
Kcd_swede: UP!
mjg5591 On deck!
Deckhand
krieger546

 

[Indiansmoke]

I played some test games and I am convinced we need to go worker after the archer.

It works so much better.

So build order is

archer (work cow when ready), worker, workboat, warrior, settler, lighthouse, GLH.

Techs

pottery, sailing, masonry, agriculture, mystisism, meditation, priesthood writting and some turns into monarchy.

The reason for this is to get all bonuses on writting.

GLH completed turn 81 test save uploaded

 

[Indiansmoke]

OK further testing and here is the alternative without the second archer and with capital library

Builds
workboat, worker, warrior, library, settler, lighthouse, GLH.

Techs
writting, sailing, masonry, agriculture and then all the others.

I like this plan better because it gives more tech, more worker moves, earlier scientist and earlier workboat scout. GLH is one turn later but it should be OK.

Basic conclusions
Worker at size 4 is essensial for developement and slaving in capital is not needed.

 

[Yamps]

Well, this will require same analysis tomorrow.

It's clear that earlier Library beats the prerequisites for Writing, I did some calculations in the previous post.

What would we build the worker for, to develop what? We could grow to size 6 and work 6 improved tiles with the current 2 workers, I've tested that. Are you prioritizing the second city? Our two workers will be done soon with the capital, I didn't really see the need before the GLH for the third one while playing this.

Also, do you have a T61 save for comparison? There are lot of different things to do after that, making comparison more difficult.

Good to have you back!

EDIT: too late to check now...you should be behind in techs compared to my tests, because the 5th pop is timed there with the river mine build.

 

[kcd_swede]

City builds:
warrior (garrison)> workboat3 to explore > Library > lighthouse (12h, done in 3t),
Tech:
writing > Sailing > Masonry

Improvements/worker moves:
cow, cow road, river mine, cow, FO (plains hill)

Micromanagement:
work the clams instead of the cow on the 2 turns where choice must be made

Units:
Archer explore (W-SW?), wb3 explore (N-W?), warrior = garrison

Stop point:
Masonry learned (t60 in real game, t61 in fake save)

Predicted status:
12h in LH, finishes in 3t
pop6, o food in bin, grow to pop7 in 7t
next tech ready to start---agri in 2t (assuming alpha not much use yet)

From here we can rapidly build settlers, hire scientists, or whatever...

Cause for Pause:
AI-AI contact
Contact with AI unit (not ghandi)
GLH BIAFAL

Other:
Watch game log carefully for wonder builds, religions founded etc.
Follow demo screen (screenshot at end)

.............................
I tested a few variants, the two I like best are those already proposed:

I-plan: (writ-sail-masn-/wb-worker-libr-settler-LH) I like this for fastest expansion. It leaves us without a garrison, but happy caps not met. Bad is that bonus tiles are improved faster than they can be worked. Good is that we can quickly get a second city going with good tile improvements.
View attachment 267265

Y-plan: (see above) (writ-sail-masn-/warr-wb-libr-lh) Tile improvement in sync with pop growth, tech rate in sync with city builds. Does it delay settling too much? If we meet AI I will stop to re-assess if we need the faster settling of the I-plan.
View attachment 267266

 

[Indiansmoke]

some points...There is no reason to make warrior before workboat since we are not unhappy at size 4. The worker at size4 is to improve the plains mine and then other stuff. The mine is needed at size 6 to accelerate builds and also to allow second city to use fish while leaving capital with tiles to work. Also don't forget we cannot settle on radiation so we need the worker to clear rice and copper settling spot as well.

So to sum it in regards to PPP I like workboat first, worker after and then warrior, library.

Also road should be made on the cow before workers move to second cow for health.

In micro, the cow should always be worked over the clams, the 2 hammers are more important than the 2 commerce at this stage.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Well, this will require same analysis tomorrow.



EDIT: too late to check now...you should be behind in techs compared to my tests, because the 5th pop is timed there with the river mine build.

Of course you will get 5 turns more worked second gold without third worker, but that is not the point...further down the line everything is much faster with the third worker.

 

[Yamps]

Alright, analysis time!

Also road should be made on the cow before workers move to second cow for health.

By all means, that's in the plan.

In micro, the cow should always be worked over the clams, the 2 hammers are more important than the 2 commerce at this stage.

That's in the plan just to time things, WB and warrior would complete 1 turn before Writing otherwise. Of course, if we don't grow to size 5 it's a different story.

Your plan has the potential benefit from earlier Academy, making up for the lost research later. I'll have a closer look and post more comments in a few. I'm getting the tiles improved in time with two workers as well, but earlier settler could be important. At what size are you building the settler? I proposed the 7->5 whip to get the +50% industrial Imperialistic bonus. That's a whip without granary though so it's not that efficient. It may be better to build the settler manually after all, I'll do some calculations/tests regarding that.

You're using the first archer for garrison or for exploration/choking? I'm assuming some choking operations to get some value from Archery since we have it. We'll need some garrison for the settler and likely one more unit (chariot) to stop AI archers and scouts.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Alright, analysis time!



By all means, that's in the plan.



That's in the plan just to time things, WB and warrior would complete 1 turn before Writing otherwise. Of course, if we don't grow to size 5 it's a different story.

Your plan has the potential benefit from earlier Academy, making up for the lost research later. I'll have a closer look and post more comments in a few. I'm getting the tiles improved in time with two workers as well, but earlier settler could be important. At what size are you building the settler? I proposed the 7->5 whip to get the +50% industrial bonus. That's a whip without granary though so it's not that efficient. It may be better to build the settler manually after all, I'll do some calculations/tests regarding that.

You're using the first archer for garrison or for exploration/choking? I'm assuming some choking operations to get some value from Archery since we have it. We'll need some garrison for the settler and likely one more unit (chariot) to stop AI archers and scouts.

In this setup with this much unhealthiness and no granary it is not efficient to whip capital I feel.

My build order is workboat, worker, warrior, library, settler. Settler is only 5 turns building normally, and the third worker is a big help (he goes straight to improve plains mine) in that as you also have the plains hill mine ready as well so you stop working clams at size 6 and switch to plains mine and when second city takes fish, work clam again.

The other problem with 2 pop whip settler is that not much overflows to lighhouse so I feel it is better to have 1 more pop and work a mine to accelerate next builds after settler.

The archer I send exploring, but we need a fogbusting unit because settler will be unescorted....I suppose though we can insert a warrior in there it is only 2 turns or a chariot....

 

[Yamps]

some points...There is no reason to make warrior before workboat since we are not unhappy at size 4. The worker at size4 is to improve the plains mine and then other stuff. The mine is needed at size 6 to accelerate builds and also to allow second city to use fish while leaving capital with tiles to work. Also don't forget we cannot settle on radiation so we need the worker to clear rice and copper settling spot as well.

So to sum it in regards to PPP I like workboat first, worker after and then warrior, library.

Also road should be made on the cow before workers move to second cow for health.

In micro, the cow should always be worked over the clams, the 2 hammers are more important than the 2 commerce at this stage.

Affirmative on not using the whip. It would only be 15 more hammers from the Imperialistic bonus. We'd lose more by not working the 6th tile.

I've compared the I and Y plan kcd_swede posted. Please take a look yourself too. At T61 in I plan:

size 5
settler in 4
no warrior
extra worker
76/124 Masonry
score 158

At T61 Y plan:

size 6
settler not started, could be in 5
warrior
one worker less
Masonry done
score 170

I'm listing the score just for reference, it seems we're losing here already to some other teams either way!

The thing is, we don't really need the third worker to get the 6 capital tiles improved and worked.

T61 Y plan could continue with worker(4)->settler(5)->warrior(2)->chariot(3). T61 I plan still needs 2 warriors and a chariot in addition to the settler: settler(4)->2 warriors(4)->chariot(3). These are only estimates though, not exact calculations. It's 14 turns vs 11. By settling 3 turns earlier and assuming 3 turns earlier Academy you're getting 39 beakers more (assuming 100% research), less than lost beakers on Masonry. (48) There's also a difference in earlier size 6 size.

I can't say it decisively, but I think that growing to size 6 and working our good tiles before the third worker&settler should pull ahead.

EDIT: T61 Y plan also has 33 hammers into Lighthouse invested, that's almost 3 turns of production. This can also go to the settler supporting units, compared to the I plan.

 

[Indiansmoke]

If we are going teching by making library and water scouting by workboat, talking about choking the ai makes no sense...we will choke with 1 archer?

I feel it is better to forget about that and keep the archer close to fogbust the planting of second city and defend if needed....so no 2 warriors and chariots are needed before settler.

 

[Yamps]

@kcd PPP

Let's stop after the Library, we could use something else rather than LH there. Also, if we'll be using the archer to garrison our second city we might as well build it right away and use max production tiles rather than clam.

I think we should go with your original 'got it' proposal to the Library point. The continuation could be warrior->chariot->settler (or worker) as soon as size 6. Warrior would stay put and the capital archer would go for second city garrison. Maybe we could omit he chariot, too early to say now. It was needed in my tests at ~T70, we'll see when we explore more.

 

[Yamps]

xpost...

If we are going teching by making library and water scouting by workboat, talking about choking the ai makes no sense...we will choke with 1 archer?

I feel it is better to forget about that and keep the archer close to fogbust the planting of second city and defend if needed....so no 2 warriors and chariots are needed before settler.

hmmm...

Barbs are off so fog busting isn't necessary. Knowing the map and AI location could prove invaluable for future plans, we can't tell how much will wb reveal.

Still, I'm not sure that changes the comparison. I'll have another look!

 

[Yamps]

Ok, I've done another series of test runs... (and I think I'm going a little bit crazy while doing this)

Indiansmoke, I've noticed in the end that you didn't use the kcd's modified save that has new revealed tiles. There's an elephant tile that's important for comparison. Also, I wasn't able to match your Yar settling date with the kcd's 'I plan' save. I sent those 3 workers to clear the fallout and got the city 1 turn later than you did. Did you use the save in sync with the real game, being 1 turn ahead of the other saves?

------

Anyway, I think it's very important to send out that archer for exploring to find where the AI is. Also, I pillaged a lot with that single archer: hamlet, cottage, gold mine, elephant camp and pasture. It's important to stay off the flat terrain when there are countering archers around. Those having combat promotion for sure, drill and without promotions probably as well. Those having city garrison promotion didn't attack on flat ground.

Note there's Washington's archer in your T81 save nearby Yar. You'll have to whip that chariot, delaying the specialists. Something like that could happen in the real game as well, it's quite likely we'll need a chariot around and also that archer exploring to estimate AI arrival.

I've modified the Y plan option, let's call it Y plan, option C. (or sth like that ) It goes WB -> Chariot at size 4-> switch to Library-> finish chariot -> warrior -> worker -> settler (at size 6). There's no switching to the clams, max hammers all the time. Archer goes out exploring, chariot protects the area and warrior garrisons the capital. Workers clear the fallout just in time for the settler to settle and all tiles are improved without delay. It seems very wrong to me to delay working our good tiles, we can still get that fallout cleared in time.

I've attached 3 saves, modified T61, Yar settling and T80 save where I'm not so sure what to do with workers so I stopped. Yar is settled 3 turns later (or just 2, if Indiansmoke's save is one turn ahead.) In the end, situation is very similar to IS's save but with more than 100 beakers ahead. GLH is projected to T85 though, T84 real game save. The difference should be that chariot, I feel it's a stretch without it.

 

[Yamps]

Whoops, 4 posts in a row, sorry about that...

Well, you know how it goes, you wake up one morning and you have a completely different idea on what to do. How about ditching the whole GLH plan away? :suicide:

If you look at our opponents' graphs you'll see that Ducks have almost 300 in score at T80. Other teams are climbing high as well. Our score by that time, with plan I or Y or something similar, will be around 215. This means that they are not going for the GLH, at least not an early one.

GLH is 200 hammers. With +50% Imperialistic, that's 300 settler hammers. This is very hard for me to evaluate, but what about building 3 settlers instead? I considered it before and dismissed it. This requires more thought, especially since we have other teams expanding more rapidly.

GLH value highly depends on the map. If we're stuck to our own trade routes, that will be 2 from each city after the 4th city is built. (each city will have 3 trade routes, 2 from GLH) Let's say we build 6 cities with the GLH, but manage 9 without it. 6 cities would yield 12 GLH each turn. Surely, 3 more cities would top that! (in hammers or whatever) The problem is that we don't know, maybe there are islands we could settle and we're not land limited.

I've had a look on that Dynamic's HoF game. 252 turns, 1710 AD. He took a land only map, to maximize the hammers for space parts. He got 23 cities, all peacefully! It was an odd map, with him being in the corner and some large mountain passes blocking the land. At the end, he was pushing 4k beakers/turn with a combination of some central city towns and SP workshops elsewhere. 16 great people were generated, with Communism as Liberalism free tech. Also, he got the Pyramids at around 1AD that helped him with research.

I don't see anybody beating that game with this scenario. It does put the emphasis on gaining land cities, though. We know there's at least one land neighbor around. Judging by the tests, the AI will build a lot of archers, making any early warring very difficult. Maybe we'll do some harassing, but real conquering will probably come in the Renaissance. So, on one hand we could gain by more early settling, but on the other GLH could help us get to Renaissance sooner to start the war more quickly. How does one determine this so early?

------

The alternative plan would be to do the beeline Writing->Alphabet->Currency and to maximize early settling. Some of our cities would build to speed up research to Currency, switching to wealth to increase the gain from capital Academy and capital cottages. I've had games like that on immortal, it's a useful approach with few river tiles for cottages. (I prefer not to build cottages on regular grassland when playing with non financial civ.) Early Currency also brings 1 additional trade route, half of the GLH effect.

But how do we decide to dismiss the GLH? Any ideas on how to evaluate this? (Other than just going along with the Ducks! ) Even if we do, that's an all deity team there, how wrong could it be? I'm really leaning towards that Alpha->Currency idea here. We have health issues and we have to expand. I think that's a better plan than going for Monarchy and vertical growth at this point, building the GLH or not.