SGOTM 12 - Unusual Suspects

I'm paused at the moment... Ghandi is demanding Writing. I'm inclined to give it to him. What do you think? He is currently at -5 annoyed with us, and we are his worst enemy. Easy +diplo I think, to get rid of WE status, I think. I'll hold here a bit. Note, our land contact seems to be DeGualle, who is also next lowest in power (after us), thanks to pop-up historian screen. But its a long way around. Here's a screenie. BTW, something out of sync with the real save, looks like library is 1 turn slower. :confused: I'm certain I worked the cows as soon as they were pastured.

Sorry... the map screenshot did not save, and the game is paused with dialogue open. Here's the power chart, and you can see the edges DeGaulle territory, seperated by water until about 12 tiles south there is connection by land.

View attachment 267616
 
just a sec to think a bit...

EDIT:

Gandhi is one of the bluffers, he'd not attack if we don't give in. No demerits either from him. But no reason not to get free diplo points. If he's not nearby, we'll trade with him. I agree, let's give him writing.

That's odd about the Library, but nvm. De Gaulle seems close in that screen shot! Looking forward to the new save!

EDIT2:

send the chariot towards him! :trouble:
 
Still holding... I can keep it on hold for another 1.5 hours if needed.
 
OK... the library will still complete on t58 in the real game (equal to t59 in our tests). I stopped after sailing on t57, though, so we can decide the next tech, since Sailing finished earlier than expected (note, I would guess this is due to bonus from AI already having the Sailing tech, but we cannot see that yet).

I gave Ghandi writing as per his demand. That gave +1 diplo. He is now at -4 (annoyed).

By pestering AI I have learned:

Stalin: claims to have "numberless" grenadiers. (In slavery).
Churchill: claims to have numberless spearmen
DeGaulle: Nationhood, no slavery.
Ghandi: slavery. Won't OB, we are worst enemies still.
Mao: just built an archer and wants to know where to stuff it. Slavery+state prop. Built Shanghai t55 (no other AI has second city yet).
Roosi: Repr, no slavery.

Most interesting is the map. So I attach "numberless" screnshots here. You got the power ss in the last post. I post the t57 Demo screen too. I'll upload the save, since otherwise I'd have to transfer it to another computer to do so, and the Admins might frown on that.

 
OK, save is uploaded. Library in 1t, but need to decide on right tech to research before it can finish.

Here is the game log: (Note date for Stonehenge).

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2200 BC to 1720 BC:


Turn 50, 2000 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!
Turn 50, 2000 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 51, 1960 BC: Stalin the Despicable converts to Hinduism!

Turn 52, 1920 BC: You have discovered Writing!

Turn 55, 1800 BC: New Jerusalem can hurry Library for 1? with 11? overflow and +1? for 10 turns.

Turn 56, 1760 BC: You have discovered Sailing!

Note, I lack autolog... probably have to manually adjust save path in Options like I did with BUFFY. Will do now to ensure future play gets autologged. I hope.
 
DeGaulle: Nationhood, no slavery.

Read: no copper connected yet, somebody's waiting for our chariot to pillage everything!

Map looks shi**y, pardon my expression...

That archer shouldn't roam too far, we'll need it for second city garrison...but looks okay from the screenshot!
 
Read: no copper connected yet, somebody's waiting for our chariot to pillage everything!

Map looks shi**y, pardon my expression...

That archer shouldn't roam too far, we'll need it for second city garrison...but looks okay from the screenshot!

Every single land tile in neutral territory has fallout, except two tiles on the tundra island nw. This is a heavy worker load game!

I wanted to establish land connection with the archer, and succeeded (or that's what it looks like now, anyhow). He should head back now, and reveal the east coast on his way up towards 2nd city site(s)... seafood is at premium I think. Crab would be nice. :)
Chariot should establish if there is connection via the northern route, which would be shorter. But if I read the coastal tile correctly, there won't be connection that direction. Sailing is looking very smart if we need galleys. I think pillaging seafood may prove very effective if we find 'em fast.

Note however (don't know if it shows in the screenshots) that the sealane in the north appears blocked by ice. Too bad we didn't save any submarines from the other time.;) If we rush DG, we'll need to consider where the next city goes very carefully.

I think the ruins found by the WB in the east may indicate that next AI will be found around there.

No AI units contacted.

Not much else to tell you... fairly uneventful. But revealing map is one of the things I enjoy a lot, so it was a fun turnset anyhow.

I'm willing to play on if it speeds things up, once we know what we want to do. Or pass to the next so everyone can have some fun. (I figure by the time we decide anything, I'll have forgotten anything that makes it advantageous for me to continue instead of someone else, so the cap'n can call it and I'm happy either way).

Only DeGaulle looks really close. Have no idea where Ghandi is, or anyone else.
 
I've had a good long look on the map, this will be a challenging game! Very few good city locations, not much food, health and happy resources. Everything covered in fallout of course. Not a good cottage map, we'll need other approaches.

Here's a list of questions/issues, in a somewhat random order:

  • unit movement?
  • GLH, yes or no?
  • techs?
  • city spots?
  • is there more food in the copper bay?
  • is there a northern connection to France? (I've tried 'the radar' a bit, apparently not. There's more land there however to explore.)
  • should we gift Sailing to Gandhi? (that might get him to Cautious, enabling trade. The downside is that he has Masonry already, setting him for the GLH.)

----------------

This will be a very difficult game, I think we should play it tight, aiming for the immediate or potentially immediate benefit at all times. Let's look at the opportunities we have right now.

Watery map seemingly calls for the GLH, but I feel that's a trap. WB revealed torched islands with no food and we have very few good land tiles around. GLH value is nothing with 2 cities, 3 commerce with 3, 8 with 4, 10 with 5, 2n with n. (Assuming only domestic trade routes.) Things could get better with foreign trade routes, then again maybe we won't get them. It's a dubious long term investment. On the other hand, we have immediate benefits we could go for. Here's a list of goals as I see them:

Pillage De Gaulle

Most likely, we're the only team having that archer out. At this point, we're leading in power by far. Let's take advantage of the choices we made for maximal value. The original plan was to pull back the archer to our second city spot and to use the chariot for the attack. The thing is, our archer is much closer to De Gaulle and he doesn't have copper connected yet! That's an opportunity we should go for.

Unit movement proposal:

Archer towards De Gaulle. It's important to stay off flat land if there are combat archers around that could attack. Ideal scenario: his copper tile is on a hill and we park our archer there.

Chariot to that nearby hill to have a look and then straight to De Gaulle, following the archer. Chariot can explore the copper bay for food along the way.

This plan implies that we'll need another chariot northwest for exploration and also something to garrison the second city.

EDIT: there's another option, see below.

Third city location

There's a nice pig site nearby, but De Gaulle has his culture across the canal on it. We have to settle the spot asap to get the pig in the inner circle to fight his culture. The longer we wait, more French tile culture to fight. We can't decide yet though, there could be more food near copper.

Cottaging the capital

The map is extremely low in commerce, but the capital has 2 river grasslands. When Ivory is hooked, the city can grow to size 7. Instead of working the plains hammer tile, let's work a cottage instead. In fact, we don't have to improve that tile at all in that case, we can move our workers to the second city spot immediately!

This move also gives us the option to build another chariot after the library before the third worker. 3 turns to build, allowing the first chariot to keep exploring northwest and using the new one to pillage De Gaulle. Let's go for the opportunity at hand!

Getting the first GS for the Academy

We've discussed that, the designated Yar place is good for that. One note about building the library, we shouldn't whip it. The goal is to build the library and to get to size 4 asap to hire two scientists, whipping would delay growth.

Tech order

This map needs Alphabet, Currency and Civil Service. The tentative plan would be Agriculture->Pottery->Alphabet->Currency. Pottery to get capital cottages, Alphabet to build research in our third/fourth city and Currency to switch to wealth to keep the slider high for capital Library and Academy. Currency also has half of the GLH effect, 1 free trade route.

We should look for trade opportunities with Gandhi, assuming he's nowhere around to be pillaged. With GLH off, we're free to gift Sailing. This might get him to Cautious, enabling open borders and trade.

---------------


As you can see, skipping the GLH allows for many other things that work in synergy in our favor. Kcd, I think it's best for the game pace that you plan and play the next set as well. This is the point where we have to plan our general strategy, hopefully the discussions won't take that long after that.
 
^ good stuff

How long before our border pops? Assume same for DeGaulle.
Hill East of pigs looks like a good city spot. Do we need to put 2nd city there while we can?

Agree with archer and chariot going to harass the French. No barbarians and no one else on our continent. Can build a 2nd warrior after settler to garrison city 2. Perhaps after exploring north.
 
^ good stuff

How long before our border pops? Assume same for DeGaulle.
Hill East of pigs looks like a good city spot. Do we need to put 2nd city there while we can?

Agree with archer and chariot going to harass the French. No barbarians and no one else on our continent. Can build a 2nd warrior after settler to garrison city 2. Perhaps after exploring north.

DeGaulle's border just popped 1 or 2 turns ago. It will take a while to pop them again. Faster if he's the owner of Stonehenge, which could explain his position in the power rankings too. But a good while for the next pop I would say.

I'll be ready to play longer then. Busy weekend, but I'll check in now and again to follow/contribute to discussions when I can.

Might wait on gifting sailing... if he demands it, we'll get +diplo. With a gift... I'm not sure sailing would even get us +1.

We do need to plan strategically, but we're going to start learning a lot quickly at this point, so I'm expecting lots of pauses in the next one.

Thanks, BTW, to the on-line guys who helped out. Gave me confidence in doing what I guessed might be best. :goodjob:
 
^

It's Mao that built the SH, F9 news report. ;)

Regarding gifts, the way it works is the sooner the better. Attitude bonus is proportional to accumulated gift value and inversely proportional to the time we have contact with the civ. If we are gifting, it's better to gift immediately. He just made the demand, I think there are XML delays before he can make another one. Was that a help request or a tribute demand, btw? He's giving us +1 for helping us, but the request came at Annoyed.

Roster reminder:

Indiansmoke
Narri
Yamps
The Simple Mind
Kcd_swede: UP! (round 2)
mjg5591 On deck!
Deckhand
krieger546

Maybe a call up is in order to check player status...:salute:

mjg5591, krieger546, Narri, are you following? Deckhand, your hand(s) might be needed on the deck soon! :)
 
I'll post the initial draft, haven't tested anything:

Units

Archer towards De Gaulle
Chariot explores northwest, but with the intention to protect the second city area
Workers finish the pasture and move to the second city spot
Warrior build in capital for garrison, then another chariot to join the archer
Settler build after chariot, third worker after that (with skipping the plains mine, our two workers should be fast enough to get the fallout cleared)

Tech

Agriculture->Pottery->Alphabet (part of)

Diplo

gift Sailing to Gandhi, sign OB if possible

Stopping point

third worker build, to see what to do with him and to plan other builds

Goals

Explore the copper bay for food with the new chariot
Settle new city on the 'GS city' spot, start the library there
Get archer close to De Gaulle/move in (goal is to pillage hill mines and to block copper)


Of course, more input from the team is needed here, this is a following to a more general strategy plan in the previous post.
 
I'm following this game, though not as deeply as the game testers!

Opening the save....wow the land is awful. We may have to go to dom-getting mode to even get decent cities. Definitely makes more workers (and getting food!) a priority. Almost feels like an OCC game.

I agree with the pillage plan as long as we don't lose the archer.

Since it is coast and not a really big lake between us and DG, I don't think there's any danger up north (yay no barbs!). Chariot can do a little more exploration, I feel.

Are those city ruins really for decoration? I should take a look at a SGOTM 10 save and see if there's any real significance. I hope there isn't some strange zombie barb resurrection code in the mod!

In the TGL vs. expansion debate, I would normally be for expansion. But this land is still quite awful. Maybe make a third city by the copper and spam workers?

Hagia Sophia in the long run may be a wise move. Especially if we chance upon marble. Hanging Gardens seems to be a wise choice too, so we don't have to clean so much fallout to make cities viable.

With no foreign trade routes for a while, we really are going to need Alpha + Currency to fund expansion.

Long long term, Sid's rush may be a good idea.
 
^

It's Mao that built the SH, F9 news report. ;)

Regarding gifts, the way it works is the sooner the better. Attitude bonus is proportional to accumulated gift value and inversely proportional to the time we have contact with the civ. If we are gifting, it's better to gift immediately. He just made the demand, I think there are XML delays before he can make another one. Was that a help request or a tribute demand, btw? He's giving us +1 for helping us, but the request came at Annoyed.

"Believe it or not, your puny civilization has something we could use."
I think that's a request rather than a tribute demand, as the +1 is for "gave us help" rather than "gave us tribute". I agree that he cannot ask again before the 10 turns forced peace elapses. But if there is a further delay after that, it would be leader-dependant... Some leaders are incessant with their requests. I do not think Ghandi is one of those, though. So if we want diplo from sailing rather than GLH, we can gift it. But if we want the GLH, gifting Sailing is a profoundly bad idea. We can see what he has, though, and find other things to tech that he would like. His tech rate seems high, but not as high as ours.

But we should get Alpha (which he has) soon, so the other AI are in the game as well.

The chariot should probably explore the north, but if we don't find another civ there, there isn't much danger for city 2 (assuming DG can't launch galleys, which is not a sure bet until we have Alphabet... which should come about the time the chariot has defogged the north and is ready to move elsewhere).

The turnset continuation plan looks good. Just for clarity, the city 2 is going 1S from the cow (with ivory in bfc), right? But I'm not sure what you mean is the GS city. Is that the forest-PH next to copper or something else?

After clearing city2 site, it is my understanding the ivory camp + road is next worker prioirity-- to increase happy cap, right?

So its Agri-pottery-alpha, and warrior-chariot-settler-worker. Clear second city site before the PH fallout. Pretty simple... but it would be good to know where we are headed to decide if this is optimum. We giving up on GLH? Is that decided? Or are we going to go for a late one?

I'm seeing that we have to clear EVERY FO before this game is over, so that Hagia idea isn't a bad one at all, Narri. What a pain! I think the deadline to finsih looks like its going to press us a lot, with all that to do.

Good reminder by Deckhand... there is no limit to our size, and bigger is better. Just don't kill any AI outright.

Techs after alpha we can discuss later, I guess. I think the big questions for continuing from here are whether we do the GLH or not... and that answers whether we might want to gift Sailing or not. Personally, I think we're better off with x number of wokers more than GLH... unless the AI regions are already cleared, we'll have a big land-grab advantage if we have the workers to clear FO.

I'm leaning towards no GLH and gifting Sailing. Agri-pottery look like the most immediately useful techs, but we could even go straight for alpha, which might not be bad. We won't be getting that rice online before alpha anyhow, and probably not building a granary either. So its an option. If we did beeline alphabet, then we'd set the stop point the turn before alpha completes (regardless of where the build queue progress is) in order to discuss how to handle various demands that might come up the following turn.
 
"Believe it or not, your puny civilization has something

The chariot should probably explore the north, but if we don't find another civ there, there isn't much danger for city 2 (assuming DG can't launch galleys, which is not a sure bet until we have Alphabet... which should come about the time the chariot has defogged the north and is ready to move elsewhere).

There could be more land there and another AI around, we don't want some roaming archer to bypass our chariot. It's up to you as active player to take care. Just remember that we'll have all our eggs there, two workers and a settler at that spot. ;) (noooo pressure) :cool:

The turnset continuation plan looks good. Just for clarity, the city 2 is going 1S from the cow (with ivory in bfc), right? But I'm not sure what you mean is the GS city. Is that the forest-PH next to copper or something else?

Yes, the same old 1S from cow spot. The spot has a 'first FS city' sign on the map, that's what I meant. The plan is to build a library there and to hire two scientists asap for the Academy in capital.

After clearing city2 site, it is my understanding the ivory camp + road is next worker prioirity-- to increase happy cap, right?

I'm not sure. It depends on what our capital will do at the time. If it's likely that we'll build another settler at size 6, no need for size 7 happy. In that case, cow pasture first. Soon our test playing will be over, but this is sth you could still play out a bit with the old save to see how it goes.

So its Agri-pottery-alpha, and warrior-chariot-settler-worker. Clear second city site before the PH fallout. Pretty simple... but it would be good to know where we are headed to decide if this is optimum. We giving up on GLH? Is that decided? Or are we going to go for a late one?

We have to fight for the land, that's the first priority imo. De Gaulle is close and land is bad, going for the GLH now would set us back too much. We might try for a late one, but at this point we have many other things to do.

I'm leaning towards no GLH and gifting Sailing. Agri-pottery look like the most immediately useful techs, but we could even go straight for alpha, which might not be bad. We won't be getting that rice online before alpha anyhow, and probably not building a granary either. So its an option. If we did beeline alphabet, then we'd set the stop point the turn before alpha completes (regardless of where the build queue progress is) in order to discuss how to handle various demands that might come up the following turn.

We'll need Pottery for cottages, the idea is to cottage the capital. I'm thinking first cottage at size 7. About the Sailing gift, I think it's best to play consistent with the goals. Gandhi could research it on his own anyhow and besides that, we could get a worse deal with some other AI having the GLH. We'll trade with Gandhi most likely, it's not bad to have him more advanced.

-------------

This set could be done quickly, but more input from the team would be most welcomed now. We're discussing general strategy here, the interesting stuff! :cool:

@Deckhand

If Mike doesn't report soon, you get to pillage France! :D
 
OK, Yamps and I seem to be thinking similarly. About the cottages... won't be building any until after worker3 is built anyhow... so I'm still not sure what we gain by agri-pottery, but for avoiding wfybta thresholds those are never good tech to be trading for so we'd have to research them anyhow. Its only a couple turns and we should still get alphabet before the AI do (and anyhow, they still haven't found each other yet). So I'm OK with doing them now. Just thought I'd bring up the beeline alpha option to show I'm thinking. :)

I'd like to hear what Indiansmoke says... he probably has some good ideas that we might be overlooking as well.

Tomorrow I'll run through a test on the cow vs ivory thing.

If folks check in and are OK with the plan, I could get it done Monday. But looks OK any time next week if we need more discussion.
 
Back
Top Bottom