Mad Professor
Deity
Looking Good CP - looking forward to the update when you're finished.
SGOTM 12 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Surreal RNG luck resulted in loss of 4 units (2 cats, axe, and a chariot) to one sword that remains in pretty good shape and will no doubt gain promotions and most of strength next turn. GPFarm is now in some jeopardy, and naval attack on France will have to be delayed. Other than that, turn went fine.
REPORT TURNS 128(325AD)--131(44AD)
IBT: Aesthetics>Literature; G adopts Class System
128: Continue to bring down units to confront French forces near dye
IBT: De Gaulle will trade Calendar; Stalin cancels peace treaty
129: Whip sword in Novgorod; whip worker in Rostov; hook gold, but no one has anything to trade for it; trade Mono to Mao for 20 gold (but he still won't trade tech with us); kill isolated French archer with cat; note G has Literature
IBT: Lit>Paper; Novgorod -- sword>HA; Rostov -- worker>worker; Moscow -- WE>GLib (7 turns)
130: GProph born somewhere; trade Mono to Church for 50 gold
IBT: French units advance toward GPFarm, but archer separates from axe and sword
131: Trade gold to Mao for 2gpt; decide to attack pair of French units (thinking will have to take them out eventually, and they are out in the open and unfortified, so should be able to use cats to good effect and not suffer heavy losses, while possibly get a promotion or two); promote cat to collateral damage and attack defending sword; sword wins without damage, though axe suffers damage; repeat with 2nd cat; sword wins again without damage, but now it will defend against our shock-promoted axe because French axe is damaged; sword defeats our axe (suffers some damage this time); attack with chariot because it is 50% and that's as good as it will get; sword wins again without further damage.
End turn, save at central and that save is here: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm12/Xteam_SG012_AD0400_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
For Discussion:
Is there some defense given by fallout that doesn't show?
Not sure if French units will advance before healing. If not, then should try to keep them off of mined hill and, hopefully, off the adjacent plains hill as well. Probably are going to have to chop an axe in GPFarm. Suggest two workers on grass east of city build a road there next turn and one of the workers on the plains hill can move to the forest to aid in completing chop the following turn (then move to ivory and make camp).
REPORT TURNS 128(325AD)--131(44AD)
IBT: Aesthetics>Literature; G adopts Class System
128: Continue to bring down units to confront French forces near dye
IBT: De Gaulle will trade Calendar; Stalin cancels peace treaty
129: Whip sword in Novgorod; whip worker in Rostov; hook gold, but no one has anything to trade for it; trade Mono to Mao for 20 gold (but he still won't trade tech with us); kill isolated French archer with cat; note G has Literature
IBT: Lit>Paper; Novgorod -- sword>HA; Rostov -- worker>worker; Moscow -- WE>GLib (7 turns)
130: GProph born somewhere; trade Mono to Church for 50 gold
IBT: French units advance toward GPFarm, but archer separates from axe and sword
131: Trade gold to Mao for 2gpt; decide to attack pair of French units (thinking will have to take them out eventually, and they are out in the open and unfortified, so should be able to use cats to good effect and not suffer heavy losses, while possibly get a promotion or two); promote cat to collateral damage and attack defending sword; sword wins without damage, though axe suffers damage; repeat with 2nd cat; sword wins again without damage, but now it will defend against our shock-promoted axe because French axe is damaged; sword defeats our axe (suffers some damage this time); attack with chariot because it is 50% and that's as good as it will get; sword wins again without further damage.
End turn, save at central and that save is here: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm12/Xteam_SG012_AD0400_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
For Discussion:
Is there some defense given by fallout that doesn't show?
Not sure if French units will advance before healing. If not, then should try to keep them off of mined hill and, hopefully, off the adjacent plains hill as well. Probably are going to have to chop an axe in GPFarm. Suggest two workers on grass east of city build a road there next turn and one of the workers on the plains hill can move to the forest to aid in completing chop the following turn (then move to ivory and make camp).
Ronnie1
Deity
Serious bummer on the RNG bad luck....
I have a question about a promotion, and promotions in general I guess. The Collateral Damage promo....does it do more damage to x number of units, or does it damage x + y number of units? In other words, does it do more damage or damage more units. I always thought it was the latter, and would never use a collateral promo on a 2 unit stack. I would definitely have promoted the 1st Cat to Drill 1, in the hopes that the extra hit would ensure some damage.
Ronnie1
Deity
We definitely need to chop that axe in Yekat.
We need to get workers to the wine so Moscow can grow.
There is nothing in the combat log noting defense bonus for Fallout, just really crappy luck with the RNG.
We need to get workers to the wine so Moscow can grow.
There is nothing in the combat log noting defense bonus for Fallout, just really crappy luck with the RNG.
Nice work CP. 
Got the Great Library cooking and the start of an Army for France.
Now out to do a haka to please the Gods of RNG...
For our new friends from GK.
Updated Roster
Active:
leif - UP
Mad Professor - On Deck
Grifftavian
zamint3
Ronnie1
Cactus Pete -
Lurker:
Conquistador63
da_Vinci
Frederiksberg
Rusten
The-Hawk
Should have time today to have a look and post the start of a plan.
Keep the advise coming.
France is giving us a bit of a problem down south.
"I would definitely have promoted the 1st Cat to Drill 1, in the hopes that the extra hit would ensure some damage." Can't argue with you in retrospect. My thinking was that, given a shock-promoted axe, the French axe was the real problem. Thought two cats and a chariot would be more than enough to deal with the sword and I could degrade the axe at the same time, thereby assuring victory.
Forgot to report that there is a healthy French archer on the ruins west of the other two units. Suspect that the stack will advance together after healing.
Forgot to report that there is a healthy French archer on the ruins west of the other two units. Suspect that the stack will advance together after healing.
Nice progress CP 
And I thought this only happened to me.
Looks like you'll be allowed to use the Leif.
Gifting Aesthetics to Mao may be enough to get the +4 diplo for fair trade and allow us to trade Currency for Calender. Just maybe!
And I thought this only happened to me.
I've never seen that. If it does not please the RNG gods it will definitely scare the French.
Looks like you'll be allowed to use the
Leif.Gifting Aesthetics to Mao may be enough to get the +4 diplo for fair trade and allow us to trade Currency for Calender. Just maybe!
Preliminary Plan
Cities In general, we need to keep them growing.
Moscow Continue to build Great Library. Maintain current citizen assignments until Wine is prepared. After Great Library, build a War Elephant.
St Pete Continue work on a Sword. After Sword, Cat.
Novgorod Complete Horse Archer and continue with Cat.
Rostov Continue to build Worker and then change to War Elephant. Could whip it if needed.
Yaroslavl Continue with Galley. The city will grow next turn and there is no tile for the citizen to work. Whip the Galley and use overflow towards Granary.
Yekaterinburg Continue with Axe. Move two Workers east of city to forest tile to chop Axe in two turns. See what happens and then decide next build, either Granary with no threat or another Axe, or Chariot, if threat persists.
Civics No foreseen changes needed.
Workers:
Near Rostov
Workers 1 and 6 finish Farm near Rostov, then move to plains hill with the wine and scrub.
Worker 12 stops work scrubbing and builds a road.
Near St Pete:
Worker 4 scrubs grass hill and mines.
Near Yaroslavl:
Worker 3 and 10 (can they scrub fallout in enemy territory?) if so, they could scrub the Pig tile as it should be ours fairly soon? (Now at 55% French and 44% Russian) If not, scrub plains hill north of Worker 3s location and scrub.
Near Yekaterinburg:
Worker 11 starts chopping next turn.
Workers 2 and 7 join Worker 11 and chop in two turns. After chop completes, move to Ivory tile and scrub and build Camp.
Workers 5, 8 and 9 scrub plains hill and mine
Units:
Move War Elephant 1 to the mined grass hill near Yekaterinburg and prepare to attack French Axe and Sword (superman?)
Move Sword and Cat near Yaroslavl south to Yekaterinburg area.
Move stack on grass hill, south of Novgorod, to the Yekaterinburg area.
The primary objective is to destroy French units in the Yekaterinburg area first.
The question is whether we should float some unitys over to threaten Paris or move to take Rheims and Orleans first?
Tech Continue with Paper when we have some Gold to go to 100% research.
Trades I like zs idea of gifting, or selling cheap, Aesthetics to Mao to try to set up a Currency Calendar trade? Other than that, we keep looking for good deals that advance our cause.
Cities In general, we need to keep them growing.
Moscow Continue to build Great Library. Maintain current citizen assignments until Wine is prepared. After Great Library, build a War Elephant.
St Pete Continue work on a Sword. After Sword, Cat.
Novgorod Complete Horse Archer and continue with Cat.
Rostov Continue to build Worker and then change to War Elephant. Could whip it if needed.
Yaroslavl Continue with Galley. The city will grow next turn and there is no tile for the citizen to work. Whip the Galley and use overflow towards Granary.
Yekaterinburg Continue with Axe. Move two Workers east of city to forest tile to chop Axe in two turns. See what happens and then decide next build, either Granary with no threat or another Axe, or Chariot, if threat persists.
Civics No foreseen changes needed.
Workers:
Near Rostov
Workers 1 and 6 finish Farm near Rostov, then move to plains hill with the wine and scrub.
Worker 12 stops work scrubbing and builds a road.
Near St Pete:
Worker 4 scrubs grass hill and mines.
Near Yaroslavl:
Worker 3 and 10 (can they scrub fallout in enemy territory?) if so, they could scrub the Pig tile as it should be ours fairly soon? (Now at 55% French and 44% Russian) If not, scrub plains hill north of Worker 3s location and scrub.
Near Yekaterinburg:
Worker 11 starts chopping next turn.
Workers 2 and 7 join Worker 11 and chop in two turns. After chop completes, move to Ivory tile and scrub and build Camp.
Workers 5, 8 and 9 scrub plains hill and mine
Units:
Move War Elephant 1 to the mined grass hill near Yekaterinburg and prepare to attack French Axe and Sword (superman?)
Move Sword and Cat near Yaroslavl south to Yekaterinburg area.
Move stack on grass hill, south of Novgorod, to the Yekaterinburg area.
The primary objective is to destroy French units in the Yekaterinburg area first.
The question is whether we should float some unitys over to threaten Paris or move to take Rheims and Orleans first?
Tech Continue with Paper when we have some Gold to go to 100% research.
Trades I like zs idea of gifting, or selling cheap, Aesthetics to Mao to try to set up a Currency Calendar trade? Other than that, we keep looking for good deals that advance our cause.
Ronnie1
Deity
Comments in blue
"I would definitely have promoted the 1st Cat to Drill 1, in the hopes that the extra hit would ensure some damage." Can't argue with you in retrospect. My thinking was that, given a shock-promoted axe, the French axe was the real problem. Thought two cats and a chariot would be more than enough to deal with the sword and I could degrade the axe at the same time, thereby assuring victory. Please don't take my comment to mean that I necessarily disagreed with that promotion. That was actually the reason why I asked about how the CD promo works. If it does in fact do more damage to the few units in a small stack, then it actually makes very good sense because your odds should go up (relative to using a different promo), on every battle after that first one. I just don't know the exact mechanics of that promo(shame on me).
Forgot to report that there is a healthy French archer on the ruins west of the other two units. Suspect that the stack will advance together after healing.
Don't think it's hurting us much to delay Paper research or to be without calendar a few more turns. Let's try to get a little more cash for Aesthetics.Preliminary Plan
Like plan, may need to adjust unit builds depending on losses defending GPFarm.
Yaroslavl Continue with Galley. The city will grow next turn and there is no tile for the citizen to work. Whip the Galley and use overflow towards Granary. I had planned to put overflow into a second galley and whip that one as well to be able to move units faster than reinforcements can be built of moved and to protect each other, but the delay and probable loss of units caused by defending GPFarm (and probably should send all available units in that direction initially) slows the need for another galley.
Yekaterinburg Continue with Axe. Move two Workers east of city to forest tile to chop Axe in two turns. Note my suggestion to build road to forest. See what happens and then decide next build, either Granary with no threat or another Axe, or Chariot, if threat persists.
Civics No foreseen changes needed.
Workers:
Near Rostov
Workers 1 and 6 finish Farm near Rostov, then move to plains hill with the wine and scrub. Wine won't aid happiness until road to it is built, so workers should build road as they move toward wine; otherwise, they lose turns moving onto and off the same tile twice.
Worker 12 stops work scrubbing and builds a road.
Near St Pete:
Worker 4 scrubs grass hill and mines.
Near Yaroslavl:
Worker 3 and 10 (can they scrub fallout in enemy territory? Yes, pigs are already half scrubbed. Had to move worker off pigs because couldn't keep cat there [needed for support south] to defend against possible worker capture by French galley. Note that, although road to pigs is built, it does no good as long as in French territory.) if so, they could scrub the Pig tile as it should be ours fairly soon? (Now at 55% French and 44% Russian) If not, scrub plains hill north of Worker 3s location and scrub. Consider scrubbing sugar tile.
Near Yekaterinburg:
Worker 11 starts chopping next turn.
Workers 2 and 7 join Worker 11 and chop in two turns. After chop completes, move to Ivory tile and scrub and build Camp.
Workers 5, 8 and 9 scrub plains hill and mine If those are workers near GPFarm, you may need to use them to road to facilitate unit movement, depending on what French units do..
Units:
Move War Elephant 1 to the mined grass hill near Yekaterinburg and prepare to attack French Axe and Sword (superman?)
Move Sword and Cat near Yaroslavl south to Yekaterinburg area.
Move stack on grass hill, south of Novgorod, to the Yekaterinburg area. Keep 'em moving S until threat is gone. (Don't forget peace with France is probably possible if things get desperate.)
The primary objective is to destroy French units in the Yekaterinburg area first.
The question is whether we should float some unitys over to threaten Paris or move to take Rheims and Orleans first? Once GPFarm secured, need to determine if more French units are headed south.
Tech Continue with Paper when we have some Gold to go to 100% research.
Trades I like zs idea of gifting, or selling cheap, Aesthetics to Mao to try to set up a Currency Calendar trade? Other than that, we keep looking for good deals that advance our cause.
Took another look at this.
Chopping the forest requires 4 Worker turns. Roading the grass tile east of Yek requires 3 Worker turns. There is 1 Worker in the forest and 2 on the grass tile. Then there are 3 more Workers on the roaded plains hill.
After change of turn, the Worker in the forest can start chopping, leaving 3 more Worker turns to complete chop. If the 2 Workers on the grass tile build a road, it will not complete that turn.
Perhaps a better way may be to do as you suggest and have the 2 Workers road and the one chop. Of the 3 Workers on the plains hill, two could move by road next turn to the forest, providing the 3 needed to complete the chop the next turn. The last Worker could begin scrubbing the plains hill?
"Chopping the forest requires 4 Worker turns." Are you sure that's not counting IBT (or the present turn) as a turn?
Did he just move there or had you set him to chop one turn yet? Sorry, cannot tell.
I clicked on him and rolled the cursor over the chop forest option and it says 4 turns to chop.
I clicked on him and rolled the cursor over the chop forest option and it says 4 turns to chop.
Grifftavian
Emperor
My comments in Maroon.
Preliminary Plan
Sounds good & looks like you and CP have the city builds and Worker actions pretty well worked out!
...SNIP...
Units:
Move War Elephant 1 to the mined grass hill near Yekaterinburg and prepare to attack French Axe and Sword (superman?)
Yes - don't forget to put those Kryptonite tips on the WE's tusks!
Move Sword and Cat near Yaroslavl south to Yekaterinburg area.
OK, but this leaves Yaro undefended. Keep an eye out for French Galleys, and consider getting an Archer or Axeman in there for city garrison duties. (Alternative, use overflow from whipping Galley for an Archer of Axe?)
Move stack on grass hill, south of Novgorod, to the Yekaterinburg area.
You might consider unstacking Chariot 3 from this stack in order to get it down south sooner.
The primary objective is to destroy French units in the Yekaterinburg area first. Agree.
The question is whether we should float some unitys over to threaten Paris or move to take Rheims and Orleans first?
With just one Galley, not sure how much we could threaten Paris. It looked pretty well defended last time we saw units there, and De Gaulle is running Nationhood Civic, so he can Draft units for defense. However, you might consider dropping off the Horse Archer with an Axeman to defend it, and pillaging the French resources. They could take out that Corn Farm for starters, and the Galley might be able to pillage the Parisian Clam Boats before retreating back to safety in Yaro! When in doubt, starve them out!
Re: Rheims & Orleans - although Rheims is very tempting with those Gem resources, Orleans is sitting on De Gaulle's Iron resource, which should make it a higher priority target in a war. However, Orleans in on a Plains Hill, and would be a tough nut to crack, especially with De Gaulle in Nationhood. Rheims is on flat ground, and we could attack from the Forest 1E of city, so it may be easier to take than Orleans.
Tech Continue with Paper when we have some Gold to go to 100% research. OK.
Trades I like zs idea of gifting, or selling cheap, Aesthetics to Mao to try to set up a Currency Calendar trade? Other than that, we keep looking for good deals that advance our cause.
I'd favor selling cheap, once Mao has a little more
"You might consider unstacking Chariot 3 from this stack in order to get it down south sooner." Chariot is not tied to a stack, and none of the other units are either. Stacking should be generally avoided as a team practice this early in a SGOTM.
"Did he just move there or had you set him to chop one turn yet?" Don't remember for sure, think not, but you can find out before making any moves next turn.
"Did he just move there or had you set him to chop one turn yet?" Don't remember for sure, think not, but you can find out before making any moves next turn.
Frederiksberg
Deity
First my usual disclaimer about not having seen the save etc..
Having said that I would like to point out that we seem to be closing in on Education. I assume that we are growing a GS that will come soon to bulb part of Education. He can probably do about 60% of the turns required for Edu. I suggest some effort is done to calculate how many turns to Education. Then we know when we need to have 6 libraries. And we have a deadline for when the last units for the war is built since continuing war post Edu will delay universities and Oxford with serious consequences for tech speed.
Next we should try to calculate the number of units we can build knowing that we also have to build a few libraries and then asses if this number is sufficient to meet our goals for the war (Capturing Paris?). If not we should adjust our goal (capture some smaller French cities?) or even go for immediate peace with France.
Having said that I would like to point out that we seem to be closing in on Education. I assume that we are growing a GS that will come soon to bulb part of Education. He can probably do about 60% of the turns required for Edu. I suggest some effort is done to calculate how many turns to Education. Then we know when we need to have 6 libraries. And we have a deadline for when the last units for the war is built since continuing war post Edu will delay universities and Oxford with serious consequences for tech speed.
Next we should try to calculate the number of units we can build knowing that we also have to build a few libraries and then asses if this number is sufficient to meet our goals for the war (Capturing Paris?). If not we should adjust our goal (capture some smaller French cities?) or even go for immediate peace with France.
"Next we should try to calculate the number of units we can build knowing that we also have to build a few libraries and then asses if this number is sufficient to meet our goals for the war (Capturing Paris?). If not we should adjust our goal (capture some smaller French cities?) or even go for immediate peace with France." Given the uncertainties we're faced with right now, probably too soon to make a reliable assessment, but agree this needs to be done as soon as it can be done well.
Did some rough numbers. I think things may be clearer when we get Paper?
Paper is achievable in about 8 to 9 turns. At our current rate, with no additional Gold, Education is looking to be about 40 turns. That time will be reduced with The Great Library and our GP farm up and running.
The next GP requires 168 GPpoints. We are making 3 in Moscow currently. That will increase to 9 with TGLibrary. That puts us about 22 turns away from now. If we hire a 4th scientist, that bring the next GS in under 20 turns. Perhaps we should hire a second scientist now?
We currently have Libraries in Moscow, Novgorod and Rostov. We need to build them in St. Pete, Yaroslavl and Yekaterinburg. We have Creative trait and double speed Libraries. St. Pete now requires about 5 turns. Even in thier current states, Yaro and Yek will eachneed 12 turns, but that will be reduced as they develop.
The bottleneck appears to be Great Scientist production.
edit - We could change citizens from grass cottages to Clam and hire a scientist. Then St. Pete could work the vacated cottages? Gold production drops by 2 gpt while research picks up by 5 bpt.
Paper is achievable in about 8 to 9 turns. At our current rate, with no additional Gold, Education is looking to be about 40 turns. That time will be reduced with The Great Library and our GP farm up and running.
The next GP requires 168 GPpoints. We are making 3 in Moscow currently. That will increase to 9 with TGLibrary. That puts us about 22 turns away from now. If we hire a 4th scientist, that bring the next GS in under 20 turns. Perhaps we should hire a second scientist now?
We currently have Libraries in Moscow, Novgorod and Rostov. We need to build them in St. Pete, Yaroslavl and Yekaterinburg. We have Creative trait and double speed Libraries. St. Pete now requires about 5 turns. Even in thier current states, Yaro and Yek will eachneed 12 turns, but that will be reduced as they develop.
The bottleneck appears to be Great Scientist production.
edit - We could change citizens from grass cottages to Clam and hire a scientist. Then St. Pete could work the vacated cottages? Gold production drops by 2 gpt while research picks up by 5 bpt.
Grifftavian
Emperor
^I was looking at this, and came up with basically the same numbers as Leif.
Next GScientist in Moscow requires 200 GP points; we have 32 in the bank, and are making +3/turn with the current 1 Scientist Specialist, which = 56 turns to get the 168 GP points we need.
If we reassign citizens as Leif suggests to add a second Scientist Specialist in Moscow, we're making +6 GP points/turn, and when The Great Library is built (hopefully), the two free Scientists would get us to +12 GP points/turn. So (6 turns x 6 GPP) + (11 turns x 12 GPP) = 17 turns to get the 168 GPP needed for the GScientist to be born.
I also came up with the same estimate as Leif for completing Paper & Education, 9 turns & 40 turns respectively. But if Fred is correct about the GScientist knocking out 60% of Education via light bulb, then it's around 16 turns for Education.
So ~25 turns to keep building units and complete the three remaining Libraries before we start on the six Universities, if my math is correct.
Next GScientist in Moscow requires 200 GP points; we have 32 in the bank, and are making +3/turn with the current 1 Scientist Specialist, which = 56 turns to get the 168 GP points we need.
If we reassign citizens as Leif suggests to add a second Scientist Specialist in Moscow, we're making +6 GP points/turn, and when The Great Library is built (hopefully), the two free Scientists would get us to +12 GP points/turn. So (6 turns x 6 GPP) + (11 turns x 12 GPP) = 17 turns to get the 168 GPP needed for the GScientist to be born.
I also came up with the same estimate as Leif for completing Paper & Education, 9 turns & 40 turns respectively. But if Fred is correct about the GScientist knocking out 60% of Education via light bulb, then it's around 16 turns for Education.
So ~25 turns to keep building units and complete the three remaining Libraries before we start on the six Universities, if my math is correct.
Mad Professor
Deity
Assuming that CP's twighlight zone RNG results won't be repeated, what we can produce in 25 turns should be enough to take what we need of France...? Remember the remaining libraries also need to be finished in those 25 turns. We also want to plan it so that the universities and oxford can be produced in the minimum number of turns after education is in. It really makes a very significant different to tech speed.
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