SGOTM 12 - Xteam

Grifftavian · Jan 7, 2011

Ronnie1 said:
Draft 1 PPP

<SNIP>

No other city changes, cities needing new builds after completing current builds will be set to wealth or ??? if there is an obvious need for something.

Overall plan looks good.

During my turn set, dirty rotten foreign spies destroyed the University in Orleans and a Bank in Guangzhou. I didn't rebuild them during my turn set. The University may be worth rebuilding, the Bank may not be worth rebuilding, unless we have to come off of 100% Science at some point.

Mad Professor · Jan 7, 2011

Remember that as soon as we get superconductors we want to build a bunch of research institutes. I guess the cities to build them in are the high research cities (for the research bonus) and the high production cities (for the spaceship building bonus). Perhaps it would be good to make a list of the cities we want research institutes in?

Cactus Pete · Jan 8, 2011

"The length of the war depends on how soon Churchill will talk. In my experience the AI will talk very soon if you are capturing many cities. Don't know for sure if 1 turn is possible but I doubt that we have to wait 6 turns." Played very little BTS except in SGOTM, but in Vanilla there is a spread sheet available that gives the number of turns of war each leader requires before being willing to talk. The least number of turns for any leader is six. (Church is not in Vanilla.) Never seen any correlation between cities taken and willingness to talk.

WW increases with each unit killed and especially with each city taken. Would seem logical to minimize WW by not taking cities until X number of turns after war has been declared. X being Church's number of turns required before being willing to talk.

Church has a frigate that could destroy the net at Kras in 4 turns, but best solution may be to build a workboat after the tower is complete to deploy after the war is over. That frigate could also sink the galleon near Miami if it is not careful. Is that galleon headed to pick up workers from Dover to scrub the islands south of Miami?

Recommend that you try to cut off the road to Leeds as soon as possible in order to prevent all of Church's workers from escaping there. One tank staged WSW of Hastings can do that in 2 turns.

Asking civic change for peace?

Ronnie1 · Jan 8, 2011

Cactus Pete said:
"The length of the war depends on how soon Churchill will talk. In my experience the AI will talk very soon if you are capturing many cities. Don't know for sure if 1 turn is possible but I doubt that we have to wait 6 turns." Played very little BTS except in SGOTM, but in Vanilla there is a spread sheet available that gives the number of turns of war each leader requires before being willing to talk. The least number of turns for any leader is six. (Church is not in Vanilla.) Never seen any correlation between cities taken and willingness to talk.

WW increases with each unit killed and especially with each city taken. Would seem logical to minimize WW by not taking cities until X number of turns after war has been declared. X being Church's number of turns required before being willing to talk.

Except we already have a lot of built up WW. I believe the number of cities and troops lost has an impact on how soon the AI will talk. I think we will be OK if we take the cities ASAP as planned.

Remember that as soon as we get superconductors we want to build a bunch of research institutes. I guess the cities to build them in are the high research cities (for the research bonus) and the high production cities (for the spaceship building bonus). Perhaps it would be good to make a list of the cities we want research institutes in?

I think I counted the top 8 hammer producers as being viable candidates as well as Paris and Orleans based on research. But we can't afford to build them all at once if we want to maintain 100% science. Maybe it will be better to go 0% and build a up some cash, but I was going to wait the 2 additional turns after SC is completed to see if we get lucky and get another Great Merchant.

I only plan on playing those 5 turns up to a mid set pause anyway.

Frederiksberg · Jan 8, 2011

Going 0% science is no good and there is practically no effect of binary research this late in the game anyway.

We can get a GM out of Yekat before the end of the game. As I mentioned earlier we should stop working the mines there and hire two extra merchants. We can hire a few more as the city grows. Just make sure that we get a GP out of Yaro first for the two golden ages (together with the GS we have and the GE we get from Fusion). We also get 600-700 gold from the 5 cities we are about to capture.

Be prepared to use the the culture slider when war is declared. I checked an auto save at T256 and saw that Churchill would make peace despite war declared at T253. So there is certainly no 6 turn minimum. Delaying the war is risky under all circumstances because we don't know when Churchill will get Assembly Line and infantry - could happen any time. When we make peace we should certainly make Churchill adopt Caste to decrease unhappiness from Emancipation.

If we can't build all research labs immediately then focus on (some of) the high hammer cities.

Cactus Pete · Jan 8, 2011

Did some research that contradicts Fred's info: After declaring or re-declaring war, it will be 8 turns before Church will talk, regardless of past history. For G it will be 6 turns before willing to talk, Mao is 8, and Roose requires 10. Link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=3359) Be interesting to see what is correct. There may be a self-interest factor built in that is not reflected on the spread sheet, but I've bever experienced it, and I fight a lot of wars.

In peace, potential WW goes to zero in time (can't find out how fast this happens), so should be reduced when we re-declare on Church.

Ronnie1 · Jan 8, 2011

starting now

HAKA!!

zamint3 · Jan 8, 2011

I guess Churchill is down to Leeds by now... :mischief:

Good luck!

Ronnie1 · Jan 8, 2011

zamint3 said:
I guess Churchill is down to Leeds by now...

Good luck!

Well YES and noooo

He was, but he founded another city on an icy island in the North Sea (figures), luckily for us there is no fallout there.

Turnset notes

Open Save

Make city changes, trades and DOW Churchill,
WW is bad and I immediately go 50% culture and adjust city tiles and specialists, long time
Move units according to attack plan, except I missed the group at Liverpool.

, but not a problem

IBT - Churchill's only attack is a Frigate loss for us

St Petes Inf > Transport
Yaroslavl Marine > Marine
Brighton Library > Factory
Yakutsk worker > worker...I decided we need more workers
Tours Recycle > wealth

Capture all cities according to plan except Liverpool, move stack there.
Capture 4 workers tring to beeline for Leeds, move 4 of our workers onto Fallout square at Leeds.

IBT - nothing

Yaroslavl Marine > Marine
Yakutsk worker > worker
Dover Forge > Theater

Capture Liverpool, Churchill still won't talk, which is OK because we still need to scrub that 1 tile

IBT - Roosevelt steals Electricity

Yakutsk worker > worker
Dover Theater > wealth
Guangzouh Library > wealth

Tile at Leeds scrubbed, PEACE with Churchill for Caste System ! ! !

Science set to 100%, city tiles and specialists adjusted, this is taking a lot of time now.

IBT - Roosevelt switches civics to THEOCRACY!....WAR MODE

Yakutsk worker > worker
Krasnoyarsk Eiffle Tower > Observatory
York Granary > wealth
Chengdu Factory > wealth

IBT - Discover SC > research set to Fission, we need to decide between Artillery -vs- Flight for path to Rocketry.

Switch city builds to RI's or Observatories (needed for RI's)
Now almost -500g/t

IBT - GREAT MERCHANT born in Yaroslavl

Rostov 3G Dam > RI
Rheims Observatory > RI
Yakutusk Worker > Observatory
Xian Library > Forge

GM heads for west coast for trip to Delhi

interim save game is here

Ronnie1 · Jan 8, 2011

The Autolog

Spoiler :

leif erikson · Jan 8, 2011

Nice work R1!! :hatsoff:

A bit surprised Churchill didn't have more Workers. :sad:

Looks like we had better get our troops moved north if Roosie is thinking war! :eek:

Should we take Macau and Tianjin from Mao? Lots of tiles need scrubbing. :rolleyes:

Is the Great Merchant enroute to Delhi? Once he completes his mission, is it Gandhi's turn?

Are there any of Roosie's cities we want? Perhaps New York with Notre Dame? Then we sort of need Seattle, Atlanta and maybe Boston to reduce cultural pressure? Not sure we need the 2 Happy Faces that badly?

Look some more later.

Cactus Pete · Jan 8, 2011

Looks good, R1. Puzzled but pleased at the easy peace. Learn from playing these SGOTMs.

FR has too much on his hands, so we probably need to move some tanks north. R1, do you know how long he's been in a pre-war state? If war with FR is likely, should we not consider Artillery or Flight as the next tech?

We could engage FR for ten turns (especially if he starts it), get cease fire or peace, scrub liberated areas while attacking another civ, allow WW with America fade, then attack FR again, perhaps last.

Frederiksberg · Jan 8, 2011

Next target should probably be Mao or Gandhi. I think we can leave Mao with Hangzhou since it doesn't require any scrubbing. I would like to save Roosevelt for later and avoid a real war with him, that is, we send in stacks of tanks and workers to scrub and thats basically it. Perhaps capture a few of his island cities if they are not heavily guarded. It's important that we keep pushing for war - there is no time to waste with less than 50 turns left to the launch.

Right now a scrubbing war doesn't make sense because our workers have plenty to scrub in our new territories.

A number of cities are badly in need of MM.

When we are done with the Research Labs we should be building only wealth, science and workers. No need for more military except some marines out of Yaroslavl and no need for more transports. We have plenty of galleons. The last GG should probably be attached to a tank, but let's keep our options open.

Regarding tech path I say we save the 1600 beakers and opt for Artillery. Haven't seen any convincing case for why we should spend hammers on bombers, our current military should be strong enough to handle the remaining wars.

Grifftavian · Jan 8, 2011

Good job, R1! :salute:

Not sure we are Roosevelt's target, we have a lot of trade deals with him, but those former Chinese cities are defended by weaker units, so getting some Tanks up there not a bad idea.

Tough call on Artillery vs. Flight. We get to where we need to be a little sooner with Artillery, but just noticed that Roosevelt has Flight now. Does that change our thinking any?

Cactus Pete · Jan 8, 2011

"Next target should probably be Mao or Gandhi." Fred, are you confident FR will give us a choice?

leif erikson · Jan 8, 2011

Grifftavian said:
Tough call on Artillery vs. Flight. We get to where we need to be a little sooner with Artillery, but just noticed that Roosevelt has Flight now. Does that change our thinking any?

The longer we wait, the more it affects things. Roosie with Bombers does not bode well for the soft war of scrubbing. :eek:

If Artillery will allow us to go after him, then that may be the best route. Although, does he have oil? Without it, Flight is a useless tech for him.

Let me go check. :scan:

edit - not only does he not have any, I do not see how any of the others civs will provide him any? Churchill is the closest as his new city, Birmingham, has it in his 9-tile city square. While DeGaulle has some, he'll never be able to access it and it looks like Mao may be in the same boat. Gandhi doesn't seem to have any either. Doesn't this make Flight mute for Roosie?

Ronnie1 · Jan 9, 2011

edit - not only does he not have any, I do not see how any of the others civs will provide him any? Churchill is the closest as his new city, Birmingham, has it in his 9-tile city square. While DeGaulle has some, he'll never be able to access it and it looks like Mao may be in the same boat. Gandhi doesn't seem to have any either. Doesn't this make Flight mute for Roosie?

Just looked at those situations myself. So I agree completely that Flight is mute at this stage.

Tech path will go back to Artillery > Rocketry > etc...as I posted before unless someone sees a reason to attack that path differently.

As for the rest of the plan.

I propose to go after Mao's southern cities and then Gandhi, leaving Roosevelt for last. We can scrub war on the continent, and either scrub war or capture the island cities. We need a few decent defensive units and a few tanks on the Roos border, the rest of the units can head for Mao.

As for Stalin, I propose to hit all 3 of his cities on the same turn with Marines or Amphibious Infantry if we have some making his nukes mute also. Transports/Galleons will be free after we take Mao's and Gandhi's cities.

I will go back and load individual autosaves to see when Roos went war mode. Although, from looking at the "glance" screen, I believe we are his target, and he went Theocracy 2 turns ago IBT.

EDIT: Roosevelt went WHEOOHRN between the 1765 and 1785 interim saves. At that time, Stalin was low man on the totem pole at "0", we were tied for second at +1 with frenchy! See screen shot

Ronnie1 · Jan 9, 2011

The question we really need to discuss is when to kick off our golden ages. We will have 24 turns of GA to use, I don't see any way we could possibly get 3 more different great people for a 3rd GA.

A number of cities are badly in need of MM.

Please tell me what you see and don't like, I definitely could have missed something, there are a lot of cities to manage right now.

Cactus Pete · Jan 9, 2011

If we go after Mao and G, let's not make ourselves too vulnerable to an attack by FR.

Ronnie1 · Jan 9, 2011

I plan to play some more in the next 8 - 12 hours.

Plan is to take Mao's 2 southern cities, then stage for attacks on Gandhi.

I will also be reinforcing our northern border with Roos.

Tech path will go Artillery > Rocketry

Builds will be RI or Observatories > RI or wealth and Marines in Yaroslavl.

Pretty basic IMO, do not expect much resistance from Mao's Muskets and Grenadiers.

SGOTM 12 - Xteam

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