SGOTM 12 - Xteam

[The-Hawk]

Definitely missing something here: What is the pressing importance of courthouses?

Good question . In space games, I tend to build courthouses early, probably overly paranoid about hosing my economy when REXing. I figure I will eventually be building them in most cities because maint gets pretty painful over the long haul. My thought process tends to be build them early so as to start getting the benefit early. Maybe there are better early builds, especially in the cities closer to the capital.

I curious if folks have a rule of thumb for courthouses? I typically will try to build them if maint is -5 or so.

 

[zamint3]

I recommend:

Build:
Moscow: Switch to research and whip the settler when city site is ready putting overflow into cat or axe.
Novgorod: Overflow into settler and then switch to research.
St. Pete: Barracks or research after granary

Workers:
At least 4 workers should road to and prepare next city site, pigs site!?
Leave 3 workers improving of our existing cities.

Trade:
Make peace all way round if possible, and gift techs until we can trade. As Hawk says it's a space race and we want the AI to do some of the research.

Research:
Construction - Aesthetics - Literature (we should pick up Polytheism from trade)

The warmongers amongst us should try to figure out what it'll take to go after France

Edit: I don't think one turn of 0% research will give us enough gold to upgrade a warrior...

 

[Frederiksberg]

I agree that peace with the AI on our own continent (except France) is the main priority. If we are going to war against France using cats and elephants we should probably go all in and start building units in most cities - at least those with Granary and Barracks. Making peace with France and then declaring again will have negative diplomatic repercussions with the other AI.

Otherwise I think the long term strategy can be pretty standard: Get to Litterature and Currency in the short term (Construction first if we go to war) and then beeline Education to get Oxford. My guess is that in a Space Game with no Vassals and restrictions on warfare the best strategy is to go for early Communism/State Property and then get some factories and workshops up and running for wealth production. This casts some doubt on the usefulness of Courthouses and my suggestion is to wait with these. Maybe we don't want any at all or perhaps only the minimum 6 it takes to be able to build the FP. Anyway it seems to be far to early to build courthouses.

 

[Ronnie1]

Moscow: Switch to research and whip the settler when city site is ready putting overflow into cat or axe.

Moscow will finish this settler in 3 turns, no reason to whip. The Axe in the que there already has 24/35H, I would hold off building it until the hammers start to decay, more on that later. We can get the site scrubbed by the time the settler gets there if the 2 workers on the cows and the worker scrubbing N of St Petes go together to the site and scrub.

Workers....

3 to new site, no roading allowed, just get there and scrub.

Worker #8, St Petes, finish rice farm, then chop forest for Moscow.

2 workers are dedicated to getting the Ivory hooked up, both workers should road now that they are in place. Then scurb>camp, should be a total of 8 turns for the 2 workers.

Worker #1 by Rostov needs to go back to the rice when the archer clears. 1 turn to scrub, then 6 turns to farm.

Worker #2, between Rostov and Novgorod, needs to road, 3 turns, then free for ???

Back to Moscow's builds...
I think Moscow should build more workers after the settler. We could run research for 3 turns if we wanted to let it grow, need to work a 2F tile instead of a scientist. But then we would be size 8, and able to work all the resource tiles and 2 scientists, and still +2 food. As a side note, it would be great to see a lighthouse here soon somehow. Still, very strong size 8 before we even start any cottages.

Here is what I would like to see for Moscow

Settler = 3 turns
Research = 3 turns to grow
Worker = 1 chop + 2 turns
Worker = 1 chop + 2 turns
Finish Axe before decay

 

[Ronnie1]

It may be possible to get peace for techs.

It is a bummer that you don't get the "what would make this deal work" option when negotiating peace, would make life much simpler.

About France, I have seen people advocate for both sides, peace-vs-no peace, I would like to have the reasoning there discussed a bit. Diplomacy is probably my weakest game point, it would be great to get some insight here.

 

[The-Hawk]

Peace allows us to REX without worry. I'm also concerned he will spam units if we are at war. Maybe if we are at peace he will prioritize buildings in his cities.

Hard for me to see any reason to stay at war, we can redeclare whenever we want.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I agree that peace with the AI on our own continent (except France) is the main priority. If we are going to war against France using cats and elephants we should probably go all in and start building units in most cities - at least those with Granary and Barracks. Strongly agree. Making peace with France and then declaring again will have negative diplomatic repercussions with the other AI. This concerns me. Research will be speeded significantly if we are eventually able to trade for techs. Is it not the case that additional negative diplo points are likely to delay or perhaps even prohibit tech trading? What about holding off peace with France unless we really need it to rex or to get out of a tight situation? Having weak French units coming at us is not all bad once we have units built that can win battles and gain promotions.

Otherwise I think the long term strategy can be pretty standard: Get to Litterature and Currency in the short term (Construction first if we go to war [Yes]) and then beeline Education to get Oxford. My guess is that in a Space Game with no Vassals and restrictions on warfare the best strategy is to go for early Communism/State Property and then get some factories and workshops up and running for wealth production. This casts some doubt on the usefulness of Courthouses and my suggestion is to wait with these. Maybe we don't want any at all or perhaps only the minimum 6 it takes to be able to build the FP. Anyway it seems to be far too early to build courthouses.

We'll need at least two galleys to pull off a semi-suprise attack on Paris. If it's on a hill, we would want to know it, as that will influence number of units needed to take city, number we're likely to lose, and thus the need for additional unit(s) to hold the city. Something like 4 cats, 2 WEs and 2 CR2swords would probably be sufficient initially with some reinforcements coming. Medic chariot and axes could constitute most of reinforcements, if losses minimal. If at war, galleys could scout city, and we could adjust plan to fit defenders.

 

[The-Hawk]

Making peace with France and then declaring again will have negative diplomatic repercussions with the other AI. This concerns me. Research will be speeded significantly if we are eventually able to trade for techs. Is it not the case that additional negative diplo points are likely to delay or perhaps even prohibit tech trading? What about holding off peace with France unless we really need it to rex or to get out of a tight situation? Having weak French units coming at us is not all bad once we have units built that can win battles and gain promotions.

I missed Frederiksberg's comment on diplo impact. I guess this is a reason to stay at war. I guess the question is, which is worse? Negative diplo, or potential for more defenders if he is spamming military?

 

[leif erikson]

Interestingly, Churchill and Roosie are cautious towards De Gaulle while Gandhi is Annoyed with him and Mao is Pleased with him. Some have Mutual Military Struggle bonuses with De Gaulle, +4 for Mao while Churchill and Roosie are at +2 and Gandhi has none. Making peace with everyone but De Gaulle should, pretty much, wipe this bonus out. It looks like only Mao would get a negative for "You Declared War on our Friend"?

Should we trade Alphabet and they begin to trade with one another, then I think that they will become more friendly and a declaration would hurt us with YDWooF.

None of them have contact with Stalin.

Should we trade Alpha, I think we should not make peace with De Gaulle. If it is necessary to trade Alpha, then we should stay at war with De Gaulle?

The other consideration is that should we make peace and De Gaulle beats us to a nice city site down south, I would hate to wait to take it and get it developed. Rather get it going sooner and get it settled and defended.

edit - should we also make peace with Stalin?
Could we get any of his High Tech before we have to kill him off?

 

[Mad Professor]

I might have a little more time coming up again soon. It's nice to be "back from the dead" in the that way...

Now I just have to catch up with what you guys have been doing...

None of them have contact with Stalin.

Wiping Stalin out is one of the victory conditions. It will therefore be no pushover and he might be hard to get an army to.

I think Physics and therefore the arrival of blimps is going to be an interesting moment for us. Remember we have to remove all fallout too. What are the odds of there being some remote arctic (more likely antarctic since we're in the northern hemisphere) island with fallout on it that none of the AI's are going to settle on and remove the fallout for us?

 

[Ronnie1]

Am I to play more???

I don't believe anyone made a decision.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Interestingly, Churchill and Roosie are cautious towards De Gaulle while Gandhi is Annoyed with him and Mao is Pleased with him. Some have Mutual Military Struggle bonuses with De Gaulle, +4 for Mao while Churchill and Roosie are at +2 and Gandhi has none. Making peace with everyone but De Gaulle should, pretty much, wipe this bonus out. Won't that take some time leif? If so, how much? It looks like only Mao would get a negative for "You Declared War on our Friend"?

Should we trade Alphabet and they begin to trade with one another, then I think that they will become more friendly and a declaration (Are you positing what would happen if we made peace with France, then declared against him later?) would hurt us with YDWooF.

None of them have contact with Stalin.

Should we trade Alpha, I think we should not make peace with De Gaulle. If it is necessary to trade Alpha, then we should stay at war with De Gaulle? And the corollary: If we don't need Alpha for peace, then we can make peace and later re-declare with France?

The other consideration is that should we make peace and De Gaulle beats us to a nice city site down south, I would hate to wait to take it and get it developed. Rather get it going sooner and get it settled and defended. It would have to grow to size 2 first, anyway. Not sure this is a serious issue.

edit - should we also make peace with Stalin?
Could we get any of his High Tech before we have to kill him off?

If tech trading shows itself to be viable, why not make peace with him?

 

[leif erikson]

Am I to play more???

I don't believe anyone made a decision.

I think you have completed about 12 turns. I have no objection if you wish to play to the completion of Construction. Not sure we have solidified tech priority, but it seems we need construction before we can war with France?

Won't that take some time leif? If so, how much?

I'm not entirely sure. Went back and checked previous saves and Gandhi, once we made peace, shows no Mutual Military Struggle bonus back to turn 68. However, I went back further and found that the AI must not have known each other when the game began because they have no relations prior to turn 52, so perhaps it did not have time to build up?

(Are you positing what would happen if we made peace with France, then declared against him later?)

And the corollary: If we don't need Alpha for peace, then we can make peace and later re-declare with France?

Yes, I was thinking that once we trade them Alphabet, then they will trade and begin to build + relations for their trades. Without Alpha, they cannot make those trades and so cannot get the + bonus for trading tech. Could be all wet as I am no code diver either...

If tech trading shows itself to be viable, why not make peace with him?

Yes, I agree, why not.

Looking at the available techs to trade, it doesn't look good good for making peace without giving Alpha. The only techs we have available to trade Mao for peace are Alpha and Meditation. The others look better. When we make peace with Roosie, we should see if we can then trade for iron Working? He is the one we have the most tech available to trade, perhaps sweeten his deal when we make peace? Does anyone know when Rosie will trade, at negative ? relations?

Seeing this, it seems like staying at war with France would be preferable?

Anyone having trouble with the interface? It would not let me change the tech slider?

 

[Grifftavian]

...Anyone having trouble with the interface? It would not let me change the tech slider?

IIRC, the latest save was uploaded with the game paused. You probably just need to un-pause the game.

 

[leif erikson]

Griff.

We should try not to upload it that way in future.
Some of us are not smart enough to figure it out...

 

[Cactus Pete]

No trouble with interface here, leif.

We could delay peace with China and France until we need it, allowing us to attack some vulnerable units, gain promotions, and perhaps reduce the price for peace. If we are at risk of being pillaged or worse, then we can trade for peace.

Concur with Construction next and happy for Ronnie to play until it is learned.

 

[Ronnie1]

IIRC, the latest save was uploaded with the game paused. You probably just need to un-pause the game.

I pause the game a LOT, I find it helps me to not make any accidental moves. I have to un-pause before I do something crazy! I will try to remember not upload any paused saves in the future.

The few turns to Construction are pretty straight forward with one glaring exception.

The Peace deals....what are we willing to give up for peace and to whom?

 

[Grifftavian]

<snip>

The few turns to Construction are pretty straight forward with one glaring exception.

The Peace deals....what are we willing to give up for peace and to whom?

Synopsis of recent discussions seems to be...

• Peace with Mao for Alphabet & Meditation
• Peace with Roosie for minimum number of techs not including Alphabet
• Remain at War with De Gaulle with the goal of capturing Paris (& maybe other French cities, but not eliminating him????)
• Remain at War with Stalin, since he must be eliminated as victory condition

Is this how everyone else sees it?

 

[leif erikson]

A little bit differently perhaps.

Peace with all the civs except France. Stalin is supposed to still have many advanced techs. In fact, if you look at the power curve, he is way, way ahead. It leaves me wondering what the downside to peace with him might be as we may be able to pick up some techs from him before we finish him off? I have a feeling he has tac nukes, so it is going to be a while before we can take him out anyway?

With Roosie, I hope we can wrangle Iron Working from him. Making peace needs to leave as many options open as possible, including gifting a tech after the peace deal if necessary.

 

[Cactus Pete]

If we get a cease fire rather than peace with France (perhaps possible if we kill off a few of his units), then would we get negative diplo when we go back to war?