SGOTM 12 - Xteam

[Grifftavian]

OK, but do we also whip/chop the beginnings of an army just in case we CAN'T get peace for Alphabet?

IMO, yes. We are still everyone's worst enemy, and everyone except Gandhi and Stalin are in WHEOOHRN mode (see attached screen shot).

If we whip the Barracks, we get a 35 hammer overflow that builds the next Axe in one turn. We can then chop a forest to get a second Axe the next turn and, if we need a third, chop the second forest as well. We get three Axes for the price of 1 pop and two chops, and they will be CBT1 promoted.

We can get another Axeman if we change the build in Novgorod to an Axeman now; it will be completed in 7 turns, but the city will grow to size 4 in four turns, and we should be able to whip it out after that.

The French Archer represents an excellent opportunity to promote one of those Axes to Shock to gain an advantage over Churchill's stack. There is a forest and three hills he must pass to get to our cities, however, he can bypass them?

Those hills and forest make good defensive positions for our new Axemen. Perhaps we could use Chariot 2 (Moscow) to lure Churchill's stack to continue north, instead of heading NW toward Moscow & St. Pete.

 

[leif erikson]

Hawk did at T71:

Missed that. Thanks zamint.

I must be missing something . . . Why can't we just switch to Alpha at 100% and get it in six turns? That takes care of the English, and we'd only have to worry about the French archer south of the ivory should he head north. Are we not certain that we can get peace for Alpha?

Yes, why not try it. Maybe he'll take a tech for peace, if we have one?

I think we should still build some Axes as 6-turns might allow Churchill's units to be on the forest tile near the two Gold Hills.

 

[Frederiksberg]

My advice would be to start building the axes but don't do any whipping before we know if we can get peace with the AI in return for Alpha (or some other techs). If peace is made we have plenty of time to let the axes finish and we can concentrate on whipping workers and settlers which is much better.

 

[leif erikson]

Fred, a 6-unit stack could be 2-turns from attacking Moscow in 6-turns. Waiting may leave no time to defend ourselves.

 

[Cactus Pete]

The reason could be that Gandhi had already researched most of AH. Gifting a tech should in most cases give us +4 diplomatic points for fair trade.

Wouldn't we get some credit? Also, there is no indication of negative diplo points with G as a result of not giving him CoL. This is a puzzle it behooves us to solve, as trading tech could certainly mean the difference between winning and loosing. Any ideas?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Yes, why not try it. Maybe he'll take a tech for peace, if we have one? Wouldn't it show up on the tech screen if someone already has Alpha (as it does for G)? Could be that an AI has partially researched it and diminished its value, but my experience is that Alpha is quite low on the priority scale of most. What I'm not reading is someone reporting experience with trading tech for peace with someone other than G during testing. I think I remember reading that many posts ago, but would certainly like some reassurance. Prefer play not to continue until this is clarified. Further testing perhaps?

I think we should still build some Axes as 6-turns might allow Churchill's units to be on the forest tile near the two Gold Hills.

Concur with Fred that whipping units is inefficient and to be avoided if possible. Unfortunately, combatting the British stack outside our cities will be difficult, so if we have to do it, it may require going all out. Found that AI often will avoid attacking multiple units on a forest and just go around them. We can put an axe on a forest and probably sacrifice him, defeating one AI axe and wounding another, which should bring us eventual victory, but not before expending hammers to build units not yet needed (and increasing maintenance), some of which we'll loose and get no ongoing value from. Also, we'll very probably be pillaged significantly in the process.

Is it not true, that when we get peace with an AI, then we will have at least ten turns before he/she is allowed to declare on us again?

 

[Conquistador 63]

Although I'm taking a break from Civ, I'm still able to follow this thread, and think I can help with the above questions.

1. From the leaderheads XML, Gandhi is the only leader which gains no negative diplo points from rejected_demands. We can safely ignore all of his demands.

2. The positive diplo points gained from fair trade (e.g. tech gifts) are a function of the value of the gift (beakers, gold, whatever), but also inversely proportional to the number of turns since the contact with said AI has been established. In this game we know everyone since t0, so I'd expect that only a heftier gift like CoL (not saying that we should actually do it) could make a significant impact on the diplo scores.

Keep up with the good work!

 

[Ronnie1]

Thanks for the input C63.

So the "funny" diplo situation with Gandhi is explainable, that is good to know.

That does not help us with Churchill's stack.

Here is what I propose, mostly for Moscow.
1) Put 1 scientist back on the gold now, this increases hammer output to 15/t, Barracks done this turn with 5 hammer overflow.
2) We have 2 forests, these are worth a total of 90 hammers under Bureaucracy(most of 3 Axes, 108 total required).

3) OPTIONAL, chop the 3rd forest for another 36 hammers, I believe these will go to St Petes.

This allows us to get at least 4 axes (3 promoted), before Churchill's stack is in range and requires no whipping as of yet. We can still whip Novgorod if we have to. I am really more worried about that stack going north and putting us in a chase position.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Most helpful, C63. Thanks.

Still looking for some insight on tech trading for peace. Reluctant to commit to all out defense.

 

[Ronnie1]

Still looking for some insight on tech trading for peace.

Where exactly are you looking???...I will help, if I know where to look.

 

[Ronnie1]

The thing that I see right now, we can get Alphabet in 7 turns(done in 6, but not available until after the IBT). By then the stack can be on the gold next to Moscow. Do we want to put ALL of our eggs in that basket?

We want to cottage those forest tiles anyway. I know we would probably rather chop those into setters or workers, but the margin for error here is very slim.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Someone could test using the test save if it's possible to trade Alpha (or some other tech) for peace. That would increase our confidence. My guess is that it should be possible. One thing you could try to confirm directly from the save is that all AI are willing to talk. If you can't get confident that peace can be obtained then it sounds reasonable to chop some axes.

 

[leif erikson]

Where exactly are you looking???...I will help, if I know where to look.

Someone could test using the test save if it's possible to trade Alpha (or some other tech) for peace. That would increase our confidence. My guess is that it should be possible. One thing you could try to confirm directly from the save is that all AI are willing to talk. If you can't get confident that peace can be obtained then it sounds reasonable to chop some axes.

Fred is correct. I think CP, and us as a team, need to know whether tech trading will, in fact, lead to peace? If the odds, or the SDK, show that we have a good chance of getting peace by trading, there will be less need to build an Army. Should a test show that tech trading will have a small chance of success in getting a peace deal, then we had better start chopping and whipping or we will end up on the dustbin of history!


edit - perhaps zamint or hawk have some experience with this in their test games? If not, is the latest test game for the road to CS sling available to run some tests?

 

[Ronnie1]

The last test game is a long ways off from the current situation. I don't really have the time to try and figure out how to make it closer to reality.

All of the leaders WILL talk to us now at the very least.

Roosevelt, DeGaulle, Stalin will make peace now for the city of St Petes.

The other option is to just build the axes without the chops or whip. Moscow can make 15H/t meaning we can have 3 axes when the stack reaches our doorstep if I did the math right.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Fred is correct. I think CP, and us as a team, need to know whether tech trading will, in fact, lead to peace? If the odds, or the SDK, show that we have a good chance of getting peace by trading, there will be less need to build an Army. Should a test show that tech trading will have a small chance of success in getting a peace deal, then we had better start chopping and whipping or we will end up on the dustbin of history! Yes, all of the above.


edit - perhaps zamint or hawk have some experience with this in their test games? If not, is the latest test game for the road to CS sling available to run some tests?

Can a test game be altered quickly to add Alpha to our techs researched file?

 

[leif erikson]

Can a test game be altered quickly to add Alpha to our techs researched file?

Yes, no problem at all. Here is one of Griff's 1000BC saves.

 

[Grifftavian]

^I used the modified test save above and was able to trade techs for Peace with Churchill, Stalin & De Gaulle. I was able to do it trading away minor techs like Meditation and Agriculture. In the test save, the AI attitudes toward us are not quite as bad as in the competition save; about -11 test save vs. -13 actual, IIRC.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Yes, problem. In this save, everyone will grant a cease fire without any tech offered in exchange. Were no warriors slaughtered in developing this test?

 

[zamint3]

I took an earlier test save and nuked everybody bringing the AI to -13 (Churchill was at -14 because I nuked his friend ) and waited 10-15 turns until ww was gone. (Nuking seems to make people soft... )

Churchill took peace for Writing (at -14)!

In one test I had peace for 35 gold (I had 134 g) and in another peace for nothing as soon as I had Alphabet.

The other AI reacted pretty much the same, after peace I had to gift valuable techs to get +4 diplo (Math and Alpha in some cases only gave me +1) and that was in most cases necessary for further tech trading. (But I had different results, must depend on "worst enemy" and other stuff I don't know much about. )

No warriors were slaughtered in this test save.

If Churchill does not have Writing we can not trade him Alphabet
Worst case is if Churchill is all most done researching Writing and he has all the other techs we have....

 

[Cactus Pete]

"The other option is to just build the axes without the chops or whip. Moscow can make 15H/t meaning we can have 3 axes when the stack reaches our doorstep if I did the math right." Perhaps something like this is the way to go then. Plan for French archer also needs to be made. Do move chariot2 NW initially.