SGOTM 12 - Xteam

[Ronnie1]

To summarize.....

Next tech = Construction, Binary research, about 6 turns

Builds,
Moscow, finish settler(3), 3 turns Research to grow
St Petes, finish granary>barracks
Novgorod, overflow into Settler, 3 turns Research to grow, finish settler
Rostov = Library

Kill french archer when on flat ground

Prep to found new city at location in screenshot

Make peace with China for Alphabet + Meditation
Make peace with Roos for as little as possible

QUESTIONS

Do we try to gift and trade immediately?
If so, are there any of our techs that are off limits? Those leading to Liberalism maybe.

What to do about France. IMO, staying at war is not necessarily that bad. He may build a few more units, but he is slowing his tech pace down at the same time. Hopefully that pays off for us with weaker defensive units. I don't know if re-declaring after a cease fire brings a penalty with it.

I could be swayed pretty easily to the other side of this argument if there is NO penalty for a re-declare. But the possibility of a penalty worries me.

 

[leif erikson]

Next tech = Construction, Binary research, about 6 turns

Agree.

Builds,
Moscow, finish settler(3), 3 turns Research to grow
St Petes, finish granary>barracks
Novgorod, overflow into Settler, 3 turns Research to grow, finish settler
Rostov = Library

Kill french archer when on flat ground

Prep to found new city at location in screenshot

Make peace with China for Alphabet + Meditation
Make peace with Roos for as little as possible

Do we try to gift and trade immediately?
If so, are there any of our techs that are off limits? Those leading to Liberalism maybe.

Not too enthusiastic about trading CS.
CoL's is always a good one to trade to get the AI to build courthouses for us so when we take their cities, there is a chance they will remain.

What to do about France. IMO, staying at war is not necessarily that bad. He may build a few more units, but he is slowing his tech pace down at the same time. Hopefully that pays off for us with weaker defensive units. I don't know if re-declaring after a cease fire brings a penalty with it.

I could be swayed pretty easily to the other side of this argument if there is NO penalty for a re-declare. But the possibility of a penalty worries me.

I think the penalty would be "You Declared War on our Friend". We can ill afford any diplo penalties if we want to make trades. That is why I think we should remain at war? However, I could be swayed by a passionate argument as well.

Looks good from here.

 

[Grifftavian]

To summarize.....

<snip>

Looks good, R1!

<snip>
Not too enthusiastic about trading CS.
CoL's is always a good one to trade to get the AI to build courthouses for us so when we take their cities, there is a chance they will remain.
<snip>

Agree!

I'm not sure 100% sure, but I would think there would be some additional penalties if we broke a Cease Fire, so staying at War with France for now is probably the safe bet for now.

If you get the new city founded, what would be the first build? Given it's proximity to French territory and the fact that we're staying at war with France for now, should we consider a Trireme as the first build? Also, since it appears Paris may be just across the water from the new city, maybe the new city is a good location for the Confucian Missionary; would give us the option of building a couple more Culture producing buildings there to fight the border push from Paris.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I'm not sure 100% sure, but I would think there would be some additional penalties if we broke a Cease Fire, so staying at War with France for now is probably the safe bet for now. Okay.

If you get the new city founded, what would be the first build? Given it's proximity to French territory and the fact that we're staying at war with France for now, should we consider a Trireme as the first build? This would be wise, if we see a French trireme sailing about (and if he has one, it's likely not to stay in harbor); otherwise, a galley. The AI never seems to attack boats at equal strength unless one is carrying troops. Also, since it appears Paris may be just across the water from the new city, maybe the new city is a good location for the Confucian Missionary; would give us the option of building a couple more Culture producing buildings there to fight the border push from Paris.

Expect we will take Paris, which would render such buildings wasted.

Don't see additional workers in the plan.

 

[Ronnie1]

Don't see additional workers in the plan.

You are correct of course. The trade off, as I see it, is growing the cities and building research -vs- getting new workers sooner.

Novgorod really needs to grow for 3 turns to get the silver back. I suppose we could overflow into a worker here instead of a settler, grow for 3 turns then finish the worker. Probably a better plan long term. My original thought on the settler here was that we get 50% bonus added to the overflow because of our trait.

Moscow could also forgo growing and follow the settler with a worker. This would add 2 turns to completion of Construction. That would not be terrible.

 

[Frederiksberg]

If Moscow can grow it must grow! The Bureaucracy Capital should be about to exceed happy cap before any worker or settler is whipped there.

I hope you agree that "not terrible" is setting the bar a little low

 

[Ronnie1]

If Moscow can grow it must grow! The Bureaucracy Capital should be about to exceed happy cap before any worker or settler is whipped there.

I hope you agree that "not terrible" is setting the bar a little low

It does sound kind of funny now that I read it.....what I meant was something along these lines. Delayed Construction may be appropriate considering that we don't have any cities waiting to build cats anyway.

Here is the thing about growing Moscow right now. We are already working all of the improved tiles and a scientist. The next pop will probably be assigned as a scientist unless we have a cottage ready to work. We actually need to come off the current scientist and work an unimproved tile to even grow in 3 turns.

Best possible option might be to chop out workers with the forests in Moscow and get those cottages built.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Chopping workers may be good idea.

 

[Ronnie1]

I played a few more turns,

IBT we will get Construction.

I built the setter, 3 workers, granary(St Petes), next turn we settle new city.

French Archer is dead.

We have peace with China and America. We are everyone's worst enemy, even Roos after the gift of CoL, and no one will trade with us.

We have the next Settler qued up in Moscow, done in 3 turns.

I declare my turnset complete.

The Upload log

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 275 BC to 100 BC:

Turn 104, 275 BC: The borders of Moscow have expanded!

Turn 105, 250 BC: Catherine's Chariot 3 (Moscow) (4.40) vs De Gaulle's Archer (3.00)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Combat Odds: 86.6%
Turn 105, 250 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Catherine's Chariot 3 (Moscow) is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Catherine's Chariot 3 (Moscow) is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Catherine's Chariot 3 (Moscow) is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 105, 250 BC: Catherine's Chariot 3 (Moscow) has defeated De Gaulle's Archer!
Turn 105, 250 BC: Gandhi adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 106, 225 BC: You have trained a Settler in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Axeman.

Turn 108, 175 BC: You have made peace with Mao Zedong!
Turn 108, 175 BC: You have made peace with Roosevelt!
Turn 108, 175 BC: Roosevelt converts to Buddhism!

Turn 109, 150 BC: Moscow has become healthy.
Turn 109, 150 BC: Roosevelt won't trade Archery, Iron Working, Polytheism, Sailing
Turn 109, 150 BC: Mao Zedong won't trade Archery, Iron Working, Sailing
Turn 109, 150 BC: You have trained a Worker in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Axeman.

Turn 110, 125 BC: St. Petersburg has grown to size 2.
Turn 110, 125 BC: The borders of Novgorod are about to expand.
Turn 110, 125 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ? for Moscow.
Turn 110, 125 BC: Novgorod will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 110, 125 BC: You have trained a Worker in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Axeman.
Turn 110, 125 BC: The borders of Novgorod have expanded!

Turn 111, 100 BC: Moscow can hurry Axeman for 1? with 23? overflow, 17? added to the treasury, and +1? for 10 turns.
Turn 111, 100 BC: Novgorod has grown to size 3.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Sounds like good progress.

My comments are purely based on the discussion and pictures in the thread so they will be of a more general nature. I'm glad to hear that we have got 3 more workers - we certainly need to cottage a few more tiles around Moscow in order to take full benefit of Bureaucracy.

 

[leif erikson]

Nice work R1!

We are at peace, for the most part, and expanding again without threat.

Updated Roster
Active:
Cactus Pete - UP
leif - On Deck
Mad Professor
Grifftavian
zamint3
Ronnie1 -

Lurker:
Conquistador63
da_Vinci
Frederiksberg
Rusten
The-Hawk


Should look at getting some troops and Workers down south to the GP farm, France has built a city nearby and we may have to defend it.

Looking at the diplo screen, no one has met old Stalin yet?

If we get a chance, changing to Buddhist religion would be a big positive for us, hope it spreads to us soon. China, America and India are all in Buddhism.

IW next followed by Paper, or should we detour for The Great Library?

 

[Grifftavian]

Nice turn set, R1!

<snip>

Should look at getting some troops and Workers down south to the GP farm, France has built a city nearby and we may have to defend it.
Agree. Perhaps we should let Moscow complete the Axeman in 1 turn before the Settler is produced? The Axeman could be heading south while the Settler is finished. The Chariot that just killed the French Archer near Rostov could head back toward Moscow for Settler escort duty, unless we think we need to keep him near Rostov for defensive purposes.

Looking at the diplo screen, no one has met old Stalin yet?
And he still has only one city. He may be isolated on a small island and hard to get at until later in the game.

If we get a chance, changing to Buddhist religion would be a big positive for us, hope it spreads to us soon. China, America and India are all in Buddhism.
Gandhi founded Buddhism, but won't do an OB treaty at this point. Mao & Roosevelt will not go for OB either. It doesn't appear that we're close to the Buddhist Holy City. But I agree this is a good idea if we get the chance to do it.

IW next followed by Paper, or should we detour for The Great Library?
I'll vote for The Great Library for the Science boost. IMO the alternative is to go with IW (to reveal Iron and build Swords) and HBR (for Horse Archers & War Elephants) with the goal of capturing Paris.

Still not much discussion about what to do with our Confucian Missionary. I'd like to propose this for Team consideration: send the CM to St. Pete to spread the word, and when we have enough population in St. Pete to support it, build a Temple in order to run a Priest Specialist and hopefully generate a GProphet in the future. Although it may not be the ideal site, we could consider building The Moai Statues in St. Pete to aid in the GProphet generation. (Moai only gives us 6 in St. Pete, but with existing Copper Mine, and three hills for mining, it would make St. Pete a nice production city)

The GProphet would build the Confucian Holy Shrine in Rostov, which we would develop to be a Wealth City. Rostov already has Fur Camp and Marble Quarry which provide 7 commerce, and we can eventually add 1 Wine and 7 riverside cottages within its BFC.

Comments?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Sounds good, Ronnie1.

I have a busy weekend coming up. i can get a plan ready before then, but not sure I'll be able to play until Monday. Do you want to switch, leif, or just be patient with me?

 

[leif erikson]

No problem being patient.

RL is eating my lunch, atm.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Looked at save and have some first thoughts:

"Agree. Perhaps we should let Moscow complete the Axeman in 1 turn before the Settler is produced? Yes, but first let the overflow and a forest chop go to the settler this IBT. The Axeman could be heading south while the Settler is finished. Concur. The Chariot that just killed the French Archer near Rostov could head back toward Moscow for Settler escort duty, unless we think we need to keep him near Rostov for defensive purposes." The axe now near France can do this and start in that direction now.

R1, did you see any French units wandering around that may now be in the fog and potential problems?

Regarding research: Considering Currency next to be able to trade tech for cash to fund research. Does a trade of tech for cash get the same diplo benefits as a tech-for-tech trade or a gift of tech? IW soon, though, because I'm reluctant to found the GP site with the possibility that a tile east or west could include iron or not (and we need it for swords anyway). HBR and Sailing before considering GLib techs.

Have we offered available techs to Stalin for peace?

Plan to gift deer to China for long term diplo benefit.

Plan to produce a workboat in Moscow after axe and settler to sail south to explore and be used by future GP farm city.

 

[leif erikson]

In case anyone missed the discussion in the Maintenance Thread, an extension of finish date has been granted to 20 Jan 2011. That'll help but we still need to keep moving along.

 

[Ronnie1]

R1, did you see any French units wandering around that may now be in the fog and potential problems?

I think everything is to our east now. That is why the the one chariot is headed back down by the bananas, wanted to make sure nothing was hiding down there.

Have we offered available techs to Stalin for peace?

No

Plan to produce a workboat in Moscow

I thought about this also, we may want to check that bit of land to our north also. There could be a galley route eastward.

The Chariot that just killed the French Archer near Rostov could head back toward Moscow

I thought about leaving the Chariot up north just in case frenchy decides to drop a galley load. We don't really need him south just yet.

I Like Currency next!

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks for the response, R1.

One clarification, though. You wrtote: "I think everything is to our east now." The ocean is to our east, so please explain more fully.

After further review, additions to the plan:

Next settler will take 9 turns to get to GP farm site, and can get Currency in 6, so proposed tech order is Currency, IW, Sailing, HBR

Will not settle west coast galley city (GC) until workers have cleared fallout from grassland tile so that city can start growing; otherwise, will cost maintenance without growing or producing much.

Proposed builds:
Moscow: axe, settler, workboat, cat
St. Pete: barracks, unit to be named later
Rostov: library, research, eventually whip worker
Novgorod: (first take citizen off silver onto grass for one turn to get additional pop in 2 turns) barracks, unit to be named later
GC: granary until sailing available, then 2 galleys (possibly whipping both, depending on need, taking some long-term unhappiness heat), complete granary

Are there any important diplomatic contingencies that anyone anticipates occurring during my set?

Looks like I could play Friday morning -- otherwise, not until Monday. Need some feedback on the plan and on when I should start playing.

 

[leif erikson]

Had a look at the save. A couple of things:

I think we have two fairly immediate objectives for tech research.
1. Get to Literature and build the Great Library in Moscow.

2. Get to Education and build Universities in our cities and Oxford in Moscow.
I think this means we need to beeline those two techs.

On the Diplo front, I think we should consider gifting Code of Laws to Churchill and Gandhi. Apparent trade needs are Iron Working and Monarchy; Calendar would be nice too but now I think I am reaching.

We could fight France with Cats and Axes if need be. Swords would be better.

In Rostov, suggest we work Deer and Rice to grow next turn. Also, would like to see an Axe there in case France wants to send a Galley there. Once Rostov grows to size 4, I think we can start producing Settlers and Workers there as needed and that will leave Moscow free to maintain a large size (perhaps with an occasional pop) for Great Library and units until University and Oxford are ready. We will need a Great Scientist to help with Education. Stabilizing Moscow would help with that.

There are three food resources west of Rostov that might work OK for a secondary GP farm, between the Corn and Fish?

edit - crossed with CP. Looks like a few differences?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Had a look at the save. A couple of things:

I think we have two fairly immediate objectives for tech research.
1. Get to Literature and build the Great Library in Moscow. My first priority is to get techs needed to take French cities. Think this will have more powerful long-term benefit than earlier GLib.

2. Get to Education and build Universities in our cities and Oxford in Moscow.
I think this means we need to beeline those two techs. French cities will speed this.

On the Diplo front, I think we should consider gifting Code of Laws to Churchill and Gandhi. Apparent trade needs are Iron Working and Monarchy; Calendar would be nice too but now I think I am reaching. I have no problem with making these gifts, but why do you think they will change the worst enemy status?

We could fight France with Cats and Axes if need be. Swords would be better. Not a fan of axes for city taking. Agree that swords would be much better, and iron knowledge may give up a great production tile somewhere as well.

In Rostov, suggest we work Deer and Rice to grow next turn. Noted. Also, would like to see an Axe there in case France wants to send a Galley there.
We could always get peace, and I wouldn't expect this until France has run out of expansion possibilities. Once Rostov grows to size 4, I think we can start producing Settlers and Workers there as needed (Concur, see my post.) and that will leave Moscow free to maintain a large size (perhaps with an occasional pop) for Great Library and units until University and Oxford are ready. We will need a Great Scientist to help with Education. Stabilizing Moscow would help with that.

There are three food resources west of Rostov that might work OK for a secondary GP farm, between the Corn and Fish? Think that's better than the banana site?

edit - crossed with CP. Looks like a few differences?

Nothing we can't resolve. Where's the rest of the team?