adrianj
Deity
1
in a city is actually often equal to 1.2 for the empire, since for most techs you get a bonus relative to the prerequisites. Until we have libraries, etc, 1 will always equal 1
as far as the city production is concerned.
SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
in a city is actually often equal to 1.2 for the empire, since for most techs you get a bonus relative to the prerequisites. Until we have libraries, etc, 1 will always equal 1 as far as the city production is concerned.
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Are we exploring a radius around us, to fine new homes, or in long rays away from us, for eventual circnav, and to find other civs? Which has priority for that one boat?
dV
adrianj
Deity
Given that for a reasonably long time we don't plan to settle very far away, I think that first boat shuold travel as far away as possible. Cutting no corners to be sure we don't miss any coastal links. It would be great to establish ASAP is we are isolated.
bcool
Deity
I think we can delay an exploratory workboat since the Oracle plan is cutting close to the dates that the AI get the Oracle.
I think we can get a 4th workboat maybe with a 20 turn delay and still do the 3 wonder plan by T151.
And an getting Code of Laws with the Oracle just so can build courthouses isn't a good enough reason to choose it. Because by the time we want/need to build courthouse we could have teched it ourselves. The Oracle---> metal casting --> GE ---> Pyramids & Colossus is just too good to justify choosing Code of Laws to found a religion.
edit: even though lighthouse are cheap, testing seems to show that we can put off the lighthouses in favor of the granaries and still get better results
I think we can get a 4th workboat maybe with a 20 turn delay and still do the 3 wonder plan by T151.
And an getting Code of Laws with the Oracle just so can build courthouses isn't a good enough reason to choose it. Because by the time we want/need to build courthouse we could have teched it ourselves. The Oracle---> metal casting --> GE ---> Pyramids & Colossus is just too good to justify choosing Code of Laws to found a religion.
edit: even though lighthouse are cheap, testing seems to show that we can put off the lighthouses in favor of the granaries and still get better results
adrianj
Deity
I defer to everything you've said, since it seems you guys are all getting good results with your chosen priorities. Just checking we've considered everything, including our trait.
Ronnie1
Deity
@aj, I know we get 1/2 price Lighthouses, but in my testing, an earlier Granary seemed to actually be more beneficial. I have been getting BOTH Pottery and Sailing before going down the Myst>Poly>Priest path because I think Sailing is next most important after Pottery. Because of this I have not been able to get the Oracle before T103. But I will figure out a way! I totally agree about WB#4 for exploring, maybe even 2 WB's for exploring.
And yes spreadsheets work great, but for some reason I really like taking notes on paper! I do fully understand that those hand written notes do not translate very well in bits....so I will endeavor to get them into a spreadsheet if the results warrant it.
Someone asked for my test game results earlier.....
Here is a file,....it did not attach..but when I try to attach it now, it says it is already there, which it clearly is not.
Here is a work around
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=283976&d=1298751250
And yes spreadsheets work great, but for some reason I really like taking notes on paper! I do fully understand that those hand written notes do not translate very well in bits....so I will endeavor to get them into a spreadsheet if the results warrant it.
Someone asked for my test game results earlier.....
Here is a file,....it did not attach..but when I try to attach it now, it says it is already there, which it clearly is not.
Here is a work around
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=283976&d=1298751250
Ronnie1
Deity
Maybe I won't....I don't seem to be able to speed up the Oracle any faster than T104 (Whipped T103) unless I leave Sailing out of the que until AFTER Priesthood, which I think is a bad plan for a number of reasons.
So, how comfortable are we with a completion of the Oracle at T104?
Can we discern any information from the Demographics screen that may give us even more of a clue as to who our opponents may be?
I think we have enough consensus to SIP and put barracks in the que and play the 10 turns to Fishing. Anyone else have different thoughts?
Here is the Demo screen for those that actually know how to interpret it! Adrian
EDIT: I got WB#4 exactly 20 turns after my earlier attempt also bc, great call!
EDIT 2:
You are very correct, but because we can get Lighthouses in 1-2 turns either from a 2 pop whip of something overflowed or from just investing 1 turn of hammers and a 1 pop whip of the LH itself, what seems to make Pottery more important is being able to get the Granaries in the que sooner. In my best test, I actually produce LH's in both cities before Granaries are built, even though the Grans were started earlier. I will try a game or 2 again with Sailing first and see if I can get any better results.
Grifftavian
Emperor
For the record, I'm OK with SIP & 2 cities on the home island. But I went ahead and took another shot at Settling on the FPH. Whipped Oracle on Turn 106, and whipped Colossus on Turn 149. Pyramids built IAFAL on T172 with my build 15 turns from completion, but I had already changed to Caste System and didn't have the opportunity to whip it 
QUESTION: I don't see a reason to delay researching Code of Laws until after the 3 Wonders are built, just have to resist the temptation to switch to Caste before the Wonders are built IMO, am I missing something?
Five cities with 24 population at 10 AD. Bad Luck with the GP-RNG, got a GMerchant with less than a 10% chance
Could have used him to bulb Currency, but started a GA since I was still building Pyramids at the time. Also, started research with Fishing>Sailing, since I thought I would need Galleys sooner to get off the Island with Settlers. That might have been a mistake, as it delayed the ability to whip production, Here are my game notes...
So if we name our first three cities Elba, Wrist & Thumb, does that lock us in to Index, Middle, Ring and Pinkie for the next four?
QUESTION: I don't see a reason to delay researching Code of Laws until after the 3 Wonders are built, just have to resist the temptation to switch to Caste before the Wonders are built IMO, am I missing something?Five cities with 24 population at 10 AD. Bad Luck with the GP-RNG, got a GMerchant with less than a 10% chance
Could have used him to bulb Currency, but started a GA since I was still building Pyramids at the time. Also, started research with Fishing>Sailing, since I thought I would need Galleys sooner to get off the Island with Settlers. That might have been a mistake, as it delayed the ability to whip production, Here are my game notes...Spoiler :
So if we name our first three cities Elba, Wrist & Thumb, does that lock us in to Index, Middle, Ring and Pinkie for the next four?
Grifftavian
Emperor
Here is the save from this game.With a Barracks as the first build (initial build time 75 turns), I completed the 1st WB and never got a waring about losing hammers. So I started a 2nd WB, and completed it without getting a warning. I started a 3rd WB, and on turn 44 I got a warning saying I would lose 1 hammer on the Barracks in 19 turns. On turn 46, the 3rd WB was completed, and the Capitol grew to Size 4, but there were still 17 or 18 turns remaining before I would lose a hammer on the barracks build. So I started a Settler at Size 4, working 3 Clam Boats and the FPH (except for the first turn, where I worked 2 Clam Boats, unimproved Corn & FPH). On T56, I whipped the Settler for 2 pop w/ 42overflow, and started completing the Barracks. City #2 founded on T59 and Barracks completed on T61 without losing any hammers.
Ronnie1
Deity
Sorry....I am GREAT with Elba for obvious reasons, but am having a hard time with Wrist & Thumb.
As far as the FPH test game goes, settling there forces city #2 off the island, meaning we really do need Sailing and a Galley BEFORE the first settler. IMO, it just slows down C2 so much that it doesn't work very well. I tried a number of test games that way because my initial thought was that FPH had to be the best capitol site, but we have so many good tiles to use, it really takes 2 cities to work them all, all of the time given the amount of whipping we will be doing.
adrianj
Deity
Ooo, I do enjoy trying to decipher these things.Here is the Demo screen for those that actually know how to interpret it! Adrian
For whoever is playing the first turnset, is it possible to take demographics screenshots for all of the first 10 turns?
Some things from that screenshot:
Obviously, one player has already settled a city. This is the AI who has been gifted the GLH. They are currently first in pretty much everything I would say. They are working a 2
1?
tile, and have 6/9 land tiles, ie, 3 coastal tiles near their capital.Soldiers: They do NOT start with mining or the wheel.
Approval rating of 83% is due to
/mad:+) of 5/6. Ie, they are not Charismatic.Their Life expectancy is 87, ie,
/health:+
) = 7/8. It's hard to tell if they are Expansive, as it could just be high because they are surrounded by forest or next to a river.Interesting that their GNP is 24. That's relly quite high for only 1 population.
Base case: 8
from palace + 1 from city tile + 1 bonus = 10. Researching a tier 1 tech that stays at 10, otherwise it could be 12 or 14. Add in 4
and 2
and you get a minimum GNP of 16,18 or 20.A creative leader gets an extra +2 to GNP from their extra culture. So 18,20 or 22.
There's only one way to get that high as far as I can tell, and that is they are Financial and working a good
tile. palace + 4 from tiles + 1 bonus = 13 raw = 13, 15 or 18. There is only one AI that I *think* can get to 24 GNP on turn 1 and that is Willem van Oranje working seafood or something, and teching animal husbandry. He also fits the other criteria in that he doesn't start with mining or the wheel, and isn't charismatic.edit: FYI http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=328461
Ronnie1
Deity
What I would prefer to see, I picked this up from an old Murky Waters thread, save all of your autosaves so we can go back and look at specific turns if we need to!
My plan is to make sub-directories for each turnset I play and fill those directories with those saves.
Ronnie1
Deity
Interesting, I would not have guessed WvO, because of the Dutch position on the side OF France in the War. It was noted that there was some artistic license taken, but that seems like a lot of license! Now, if it is WvO, and he has the GLH, we really want to take him out before he gets Astronomy and definitely before he gets Steam Power or he will be very tough in the end game.
bcool
Deity
I'm pretty sure this number includes the culture from the GLH so isn't that 6 of the GNP?
adrianj
Deity
Soldiers: 14000 is the normal rate for an emperor AI who starts with 2 archers (3000 each), hunting tech (2000) and archery tech (6000). I'm curious about the 11000... has the map maker removed one of their archers??
12666*6 = 76000. Less the best and worst leaves 51000 split between 4 AI. This gets even more confusing as again there are at least two more players who have less that 14000, and no more than two AIs have 11000. *Perhaps* this map isn't actually an original Emperor level game. For example, a monarch start gives the AIs one archer (3000), archery (6000) and either a starting warrior or hunting (2000) for a total of 11000.
Could somebody double check that it is in fact Emperor level on the F8 screen?
12666*6 = 76000. Less the best and worst leaves 51000 split between 4 AI. This gets even more confusing as again there are at least two more players who have less that 14000, and no more than two AIs have 11000. *Perhaps* this map isn't actually an original Emperor level game. For example, a monarch start gives the AIs one archer (3000), archery (6000) and either a starting warrior or hunting (2000) for a total of 11000.
Could somebody double check that it is in fact Emperor level on the F8 screen?
adrianj
Deity
AAAAHhhhhhHH. Of course! I was thinking "does GP give GNP?" when in fact I'd forgotten the culture.
Ok. this changes things. The GLH owner must be pulling in 12
if they are not creative. Only 10 if they are creative. Unfortunately, it's impossible to tell if they are a creative type researching a tier 1 tech, or a non-creative researching tier 2. We do know they aren't researching AH.mabraham
Deity
Okay, here's some comments on things people said over the weekend.
Yep. The 3-wonders approach is predicated on being fairly isolated. That increases our need for fast tech, and gives us some breathing room in which to prioritise it.
Yep, that's essential in a many-islands scenario. We need to remember that they can't enter ocean in our culture borders, so we can retreat there if needed. Also, they prioritise attacking over pillaging (unless maybe they're already on the pillage-able tile), so you can often run the galley around an island keeping ahead of the barb galley until you can hack it off with a trireme. Or duck in and out of a city likewise. Of course, if we had had work to do with our galley, we might have had to offer (defensive) combat. The earliest barb galley I have seen is T131. Mostly I start seeing them in the 140s.
Another use for random Great People is a Golden Age at the time we switch to Nationalism. Presumably you had that in mind with Music (else wouldn't something else be better?). We might have some vigorous whipping under Police/Vassal/Slavery/whatever/Theocracy before subsiding into our long-term endgame civics.
Agreed on all points. The camera flying seems to suggest we'll have more access to forests than in Grifftavian's test game. That's good, because we can still get some hammers during the caste phase. Caste certainly needs all the bonuses it can get.
You mentioned building 6 swords to deal with barb cities. Early on, I think there is much to be said for dumping a warrior on a city site any time before the settler arrives. Defogging the site so no city spawns is much better than losing a sword or two to take it. We only need to farm a level-four miltary unit in the late stages of the-push.
I think the latest evidence is that a fast city #2 is the best approach. Oracles have to be targeted before T100. I've made a few reports of AIs in the range T91-97, but more often they're later.
I'm not too fussed about a clean gene pool. A Great Merchant can be saved for a trade mission, or used to bulb Paper, or used for a Golden Age. A Great Engineer will pop our Globe Theatre (this is an elephant in the room - even running post-Guilds Caste with two 13 workshops and the two mines, Elba will take more than 30 turns to finish this sucker). A Great Prophet is not much use at all, unless maybe we pop Confu or Tao. However the start-of-the-art tests games build the Oracle in a city that will hopefully never pop a Great Person.
Yep. My 3-wonders T94 Oracle built only a granary before the Oracle.
I found Wrist shortly after Pottery, and build only the Granary. An MP, a monumnet and a lighthouse would all be nice, but they do not speed up the Oracle.
Meanwhile I have whipped Elba to the ground to get out a worker fast. Tile improvements are now critical for a fast Oracle with maximal growth. Elba regrows building its granary, planning a galley next to get the off-island mines working, then a forge for a 3-wonder run.
At about this time, Wrist only has corn+nets+PFH as useful tiles to work, so I juggle tiles when Wrist is at size 2 and 3 between the two cities so that Wrist gets to size 4 just as PH is due, maximizing the number of on the granary but below 45. Then a 2-pop whip flows up to 44 onto the Oracle. Extra food at this point is OK.
It is also important to get the northern GHmine up before the PFHmine, because the former is +2/turn, the latter +1/turn. It doesn't matter how fast we get the lump of 30! Note that the worker should move onto the GH tile the turn before Elba pops the border.
During the Oracle, Wrist again juggles its tiles (mostly working corn+PFH) to grow to size 3 when the Gmine comes up, and to size 4 somewhat before the target date (spreadsheeting will be key - I've been guessing and reloading if I wasn't quite right). Most of the go on the Oracle at size 3 working corn+Pmine+Gmine. Of the 225, I get about 35-40 from overflow in, 30 from the chop and 44 from the final 2-whip. The other half come from the 7-8/turn we get at size 3. At size 4, I'll work a citizen (or two!) and lose food if that'll get us to the Oracle whip-target (181, IIRC) a turn faster. We have a granary for a reason.
I've never wanted an MP during the Oracle run in Wrist. Once it has its three mines up, a warrior is 2-3 turns then. Much better deal.
I've been putting the Colossus in Elba, because that's where I have the forge. Wrist is busy building exploring workboats. A forge there is too big for its value under the time pressure we have.
We won't have time to spread it and use it.
Indeed. I have sacrificed on expansion, on the theory that fast expansion can choke us off before we even get to CoL. My uploaded 3-wonders runs also skimped on exploration, which we will need to do properly in the real game. The galley is mildly useful in this regard, and I had a few workboats do a lap of an island before returning to become a net, but there weren't any fire-and-forget workboats.
Roughly we'd have had 225+750+375 = 1350 into about 7 settlers with supporting workboats, workers, galleys, triremes. But who thinks we can support about 11-12 cities, even if we can find the sites fast enough? How is that scenario going to tech MC (triremes), CoL (courthouses) and Currency (trade routes)? Perhaps someone can Worldbuilder 11 cities, with the inner half with courthouses and see how fast they can tech Currency.
Also, said bureaucracy capital will take time to move the palace (and will that be central enough?) and time to build and grow the cottages.
Good idea.
Yep, that's what I've been doing.
A good idea. I've not been too fussed about the Colossus. It's a nice pick-me-up as we grow and whip before Caste, but since it goes out with Astronomy, it's not what we're running the game around. Colossus in Wrist also makes for a higher chance of an inconvenient Great Prophet.
That's what I've been using it for.
I juggle the tiles according to who's regrowing, and who's building something of higher strategic importance. So Wrist gets priority during the Oracle, Elba gets it during the forge.
That's hard to answer definitively, but denying useful wonders to the AI seems to me like it has to be useful for us.
Yep - and the copper will improve our Colossus. Not settling on it doesn't gain anything if we've already settled in place - unless that south-east GH is settleable.
OK great.
Yep. But a granary returns well over twice the advantage of a lighthouse, which I think is enough to offset the longer time before the advantage accrues. For example, during my fast Oracle runs, Wrist sometimes only works one food tile - that might as well be the corn.
I've tried to get Maths+Currency out before T150 and don't go close. Maths is nice for the chops onto the Colossus, but that's a bit "meh" really. That aqueduct for Elba is not to be sneezed at, however. We may be in desperate need of (though a harbour is not far off!). For the moment, I agree we should prefer CoL for courthouses and caste access.
Also, you want early MC to get some triremes in many scenarios.
Yep. I use a crappy old laptop on the desk next to me. It can browse forum and run an editor for notes. Perfect. Spreadsheet if desperate.
Yep. However getting it out pre-Oracle delays the Oracle by about 5-6 turns. This will be a tough decision.
I think the first boat should go long. The galley has a few windows for radial exploration. A second boat can do a circle around us to fill gaps. Then we judge.
Agreed on all.
Yep. The 3-wonders approach is predicated on being fairly isolated. That increases our need for fast tech, and gives us some breathing room in which to prioritise it.
Yep, that's essential in a many-islands scenario. We need to remember that they can't enter ocean in our culture borders, so we can retreat there if needed. Also, they prioritise attacking over pillaging (unless maybe they're already on the pillage-able tile), so you can often run the galley around an island keeping ahead of the barb galley until you can hack it off with a trireme. Or duck in and out of a city likewise. Of course, if we had had work to do with our galley, we might have had to offer (defensive) combat. The earliest barb galley I have seen is T131. Mostly I start seeing them in the 140s.
Great people/research
I switched to pacifism with caste system after a whipping courthouse phase. I popped 2 great scientists 1st GS was from the 2 clam city which got an early library. 2nd GS was from the capital (some risk of Great engineer with the pyramids). I got a great merchant from a side city running merchants (probably could have afforded to run scientists since I was getting some gold from trades with the AI)
I'm not trading Astronomy to the AI, seems like something we want to keep as a military advantage if possible.
I got beat to music and the free Great Artist by 1 turn
I got an academy in the capital with 1 GS, and 1 GS partially bulbed Astronomy.
The Great Merchant waits to do a trade mission with the AI.
Another use for random Great People is a Golden Age at the time we switch to Nationalism. Presumably you had that in mind with Music (else wouldn't something else be better?). We might have some vigorous whipping under Police/Vassal/Slavery/whatever/Theocracy before subsiding into our long-term endgame civics.
Agreed on all points. The camera flying seems to suggest we'll have more access to forests than in Grifftavian's test game. That's good, because we can still get some hammers during the caste phase. Caste certainly needs all the
bonuses it can get.You mentioned building 6 swords to deal with barb cities. Early on, I think there is much to be said for dumping a warrior on a city site any time before the settler arrives. Defogging the site so no city spawns is much better than losing a sword or two to take it. We only need to farm a level-four miltary unit in the late stages of the
-push.I think the latest evidence is that a fast city #2 is the best approach. Oracles have to be targeted before T100. I've made a few reports of AIs in the range T91-97, but more often they're later.
I'm not too fussed about a clean gene pool. A Great Merchant can be saved for a trade mission, or used to bulb Paper, or used for a Golden Age. A Great Engineer will pop our Globe Theatre (this is an elephant in the room - even running post-Guilds Caste with two 1
3 workshops and the two mines, Elba will take more than 30 turns to finish this sucker). A Great Prophet is not much use at all, unless maybe we pop Confu or Tao. However the start-of-the-art tests games build the Oracle in a city that will hopefully never pop a Great Person.Yep. My 3-wonders T94 Oracle built only a granary before the Oracle.
I found Wrist shortly after Pottery, and build only the Granary. An MP, a monumnet and a lighthouse would all be nice, but they do not speed up the Oracle.
Meanwhile I have whipped Elba to the ground to get out a worker fast. Tile improvements are now critical for a fast Oracle with maximal growth. Elba regrows building its granary, planning a galley next to get the off-island mines working, then a forge for a 3-wonder run.
At about this time, Wrist only has corn+nets+PFH as useful tiles to work, so I juggle tiles when Wrist is at size 2 and 3 between the two cities so that Wrist gets to size 4 just as PH is due, maximizing the number of
on the granary but below 45. Then a 2-pop whip flows up to 44 onto the Oracle. Extra food at this point is OK.It is also important to get the northern GHmine up before the PFHmine, because the former is +2
/turn, the latter +1/turn. It doesn't matter how fast we get the lump of 30! Note that the worker should move onto the GH tile the turn before Elba pops the border.During the Oracle, Wrist again juggles its tiles (mostly working corn+PFH) to grow to size 3 when the Gmine comes up, and to size 4 somewhat before the target date (spreadsheeting will be key - I've been guessing and reloading if I wasn't quite right). Most of the
go on the Oracle at size 3 working corn+Pmine+Gmine. Of the 225, I get about 35-40 from overflow in, 30 from the chop and 44 from the final 2-whip. The other half come from the 7-8/turn we get at size 3. At size 4, I'll work a citizen (or two!) and lose food if that'll get us to the Oracle whip-target (181, IIRC) a turn faster. We have a granary for a reason.I've never wanted an MP during the Oracle run in Wrist. Once it has its three mines up, a warrior is 2-3 turns then. Much better deal.
I've been putting the Colossus in Elba, because that's where I have the forge. Wrist is busy building exploring workboats. A forge there is too big for its value under the time pressure we have.
We won't have time to spread it and use it.
Indeed. I have sacrificed on expansion, on the theory that fast expansion can choke us off before we even get to CoL. My uploaded 3-wonders runs also skimped on exploration, which we will need to do properly in the real game. The galley is mildly useful in this regard, and I had a few workboats do a lap of an island before returning to become a net, but there weren't any fire-and-forget workboats.
Roughly we'd have had 225+750+375 = 1350
into about 7 settlers with supporting workboats, workers, galleys, triremes. But who thinks we can support about 11-12 cities, even if we can find the sites fast enough? How is that scenario going to tech MC (triremes), CoL (courthouses) and Currency (trade routes)? Perhaps someone can Worldbuilder 11 cities, with the inner half with courthouses and see how fast they can tech Currency.Also, said bureaucracy capital will take time to move the palace (and will that be central enough?) and time to build and grow the cottages.
Good idea.
Yep, that's what I've been doing.
A good idea. I've not been too fussed about the Colossus. It's a nice pick-me-up as we grow and whip before Caste, but since it goes out with Astronomy, it's not what we're running the game around. Colossus in Wrist also makes for a higher chance of an inconvenient Great Prophet.
That's what I've been using it for.
I juggle the tiles according to who's regrowing, and who's building something of higher strategic importance. So Wrist gets priority during the Oracle, Elba gets it during the forge.
That's hard to answer definitively, but denying useful wonders to the AI seems to me like it has to be useful for us.
Yep - and the copper will improve our Colossus. Not settling on it doesn't gain anything if we've already settled in place - unless that south-east GH is settleable.
OK great.
Yep. But a granary returns well over twice the advantage of a lighthouse, which I think is enough to offset the longer time before the advantage accrues. For example, during my fast Oracle runs, Wrist sometimes only works one food tile - that might as well be the corn.
I've tried to get Maths+Currency out before T150 and don't go close. Maths is nice for the chops onto the Colossus, but that's a bit "meh" really. That aqueduct for Elba is not to be sneezed at, however. We may be in desperate need of
(though a harbour is not far off!). For the moment, I agree we should prefer CoL for courthouses and caste access.Also, you want early MC to get some triremes in many scenarios.
@R1 - go to .ini file and set fullscreen mode to 'no' or 'ask'. Then use a spreadsheet
Yep. I use a crappy old laptop on the desk next to me. It can browse forum and run an editor for notes. Perfect. Spreadsheet if desperate.
Yep. However getting it out pre-Oracle delays the Oracle by about 5-6 turns. This will be a tough decision.
I think the first boat should go long. The galley has a few windows for radial exploration. A second boat can do a circle around us to fill gaps. Then we judge.
Agreed on all.
Grifftavian
Emperor
Attached is the Demographics Screen from the actual SGOTM 13 game. We know an AI Civ has been pre-settled and given a Lighthouse and the GLH. In theory, all other AI opponents have not yet settled at T0/4000 BC. Does that fact that the GLH owner already has a Lighthouse add anything to the totals. Can we narrow down who the owner of the GLH might be from this?
bcool
Deity
Okay I played out an early wonderless game out to the same date I played out the pyramids game.
quick summary: expansion without early wonders could be competitive
-assuming we can get AI trade routes (big assumption)
-and we have some forests to chop out and aggressively whip courthouses
-take this comparison with a big grain of salt
--pyramid game had huts so AI was bit more advanced and possibly trades were a bit better
--My play is probably about the same quality but who knows
--the map was subtly different
Here are some quick screen shots of those two games
Quick statistics
No early wonders game
11 cities, 57 pop, at 100% research 204 science & -75 gold / at 0% research +75 gold // edit: 17 gpp split 2 cities ///edit#2 : 298 GNP at 100% science, 74 Prod, 166 Crop
Pyramids game
8 cities, 49 pop, at 100% research 234 science & -9 gold / at 0% research +108 gold // edit: 100 gpp split 4 cities ///edit#2 : 367 GNP at 100% science, 42 Prod, 108 Crop
screen shots of builds and research and capital
no early wonders game
pyramids game
link to earlier post about pyramids game out to 655 AD
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10256099&postcount=172
quick summary: expansion without early wonders could be competitive
-assuming we can get AI trade routes (big assumption)
-and we have some forests to chop out and aggressively whip courthouses
-take this comparison with a big grain of salt
--pyramid game had huts so AI was bit more advanced and possibly trades were a bit better
--My play is probably about the same quality but who knows
--the map was subtly different
Here are some quick screen shots of those two games
Quick statistics
No early wonders game
11 cities, 57 pop, at 100% research 204 science & -75 gold / at 0% research +75 gold // edit: 17 gpp split 2 cities ///edit#2 : 298 GNP at 100% science, 74 Prod, 166 Crop
Pyramids game
8 cities, 49 pop, at 100% research 234 science & -9 gold / at 0% research +108 gold // edit: 100 gpp split 4 cities ///edit#2 : 367 GNP at 100% science, 42 Prod, 108 Crop
screen shots of builds and research and capital
no early wonders game
Spoiler :
pyramids game
Spoiler :
link to earlier post about pyramids game out to 655 AD
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10256099&postcount=172
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Hmm, I was trying to get an earlier start on the Oracle and went for sailing after priest in my tries (admittedly with interrupted worker start) and that got me to 103 Oracle at best.
Didn't mab have a run where he got Oracle at T 94 or so? Doesn't that make the mids and colossus come faster? So isn't that the plan to beat at this time?
Wrist and Thumb were jokes, of course. Maybe the second city should be Ajaccio (or maybe the cap is Ajaccio and the second one is Elba?) Everything else can be appropriately French.So if we name our first three cities Elba, Wrist & Thumb, does that lock us in to Index, Middle, Ring and Pinkie for the next four?
edit: @ mab: tremendous reply post above!
dV
