SGOTM 13 - Maple Sporks

I am sure that if AlanH were here he would like to remind us all to have our autosave settings programmed to autosave each turn. Pretty simple fix if I recall.

Otherwise, the turns are looking pretty good.

Perhaps the next player can play their set a bit more in stages to allow us to make informed decisions. Play 1 turn to get currency to start (there has to be a way to micro that) and finish up after sufficient discussion. Or cabert can play the single turn...and by playing a single turn there should be little reason to worry about a crash.

If Joao sufficiently spreads his shrined religions I see him as the best target.
Lisbon with Stonehenge and two shrines looks awfully juicy!
autosave is set to 1, don't worry
it's not possible to get currency in 1 turn, I tried to tweak things around, and it didn't work.
Well, I didn't push all things towards it, but it didn't seem within reach (something like 20 beakers missing). edit: well, if you're ready to lose out on production you can get 20 beakers more
I'll play it to currency, now that I'm cooled down a bit ;).
 
one...more...turn

tweaked things to get currency this turn (costs a
turn on the colossus)

IBT barb galley in the east
TURN 144
tweaked things around again to get the colossus
moving
checked trades
Spoiler available trade pictures :

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sold priesthood to victoria for 50 gold

game uploaded
 

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I'd prefer settling 1S of the iron, which gets both clams, iron and plain hills in first ring. I'd also still prefer settling on top of lower furs to get more workable coast.

I agree that Joao looks like the best first targer. With maces and catapults?

How about if we invest some breakers towards Monarchy and then trade it from Cathy for Alphabet? I don't see any need for Mononotheism or Hunting just yet.

Some minor mm things:

- I'd rather get LH -> Library in copper city to get two scientists up quicker.
- Tours should have whipped the WB for copper city (but now there's 3 turns left, so worth the wait?).
- I think the worker should be better spent mining the grass hill for Tours.
- Let Orleans grow to 4 and start settler for the iron?
- Lyons needs to start worker now, since it grows unhappy in two turns.

Next objective to get iron and furs cities up quickly? Should we do the whip overflow towards Colossus in Paris once more?
 
Will look at the save tomorrow. I should have time to play this weekend.
 
I'd prefer settling 1S of the iron, which gets both clams, iron and plain hills in first ring. I'd also still prefer settling on top of lower furs to get more workable coast.

I agree that Joao looks like the best first targer. With maces and catapults?

How about if we invest some breakers towards Monarchy and then trade it from Cathy for Alphabet? I don't see any need for Mononotheism or Hunting just yet.

Some minor mm things:

- I'd rather get LH -> Library in copper city to get two scientists up quicker.
- Tours should have whipped the WB for copper city (but now there's 3 turns left, so worth the wait?).
- I think the worker should be better spent mining the grass hill for Tours.
- Let Orleans grow to 4 and start settler for the iron?
- Lyons needs to start worker now, since it grows unhappy in two turns.

Next objective to get iron and furs cities up quickly? Should we do the whip overflow towards Colossus in Paris once more?

- Lyon can be MM to finish the trireme this turn, then start a worker (don't forget to mm it back to normal!)
- Orleans can finish its LH then start a settler (2 more hammers from the LH!)
- Tours should whip a granary for 2 pop right after the WB is done. better not stop the growth too much, although a mine can always be good.
- I would let Paris finish this wonder naturally. There are already 3 points of whip anger there. I'd like it to whip a market when we have the fur, and for this we need to get rid of some unhappiness.

General note : we are globally poor on health. We could use the crab up north.
 
Lyons could finish trireme and grow in 2 turns and start a settler. There's this bug that when you have an unhappy citizen it won't consume food when you build a settler. We could make use of that... In that case I'd whip it when possible (after 6 turns building it) and have it go to crab/fur, while meanwhile Orleans prepares a settler for iron/2clam. Lyons after that whip will be size 3 and could build a worker (or even 2) naturally to have its whip anger decay a bit.

We definitely start to need more workers now, Tours needs 2 mines, fur should be camped, iron be mined and roaded, the PH next to it mined. And after all that we can always start chopping those jungles. Would take the worker of that cottage-build now, it'll take a good while before we'd profit from that and imo there's more urgent things to do.

Paris, maybe indeed let the wonder finish by itself. Do like the market. Note we have a lot of hammers in a galley there, which will decay eventually.

Orleans, would switch to settler at size 4, whip it for iron. Overflow should finish LH, regrow on granary.

Rheims could use a market as well, we might want to hire merchants here as well, once it grows more (and once happy cap increases).

Tours: could go either way with whipping the WB now. WB granary makes sense. Moai after that?

Marseilles: monument, LH, granary. Oh wait, see Meiz mentioned LH, library. Might make sense as we don't need the border pop that badly from monument, though a monument is still a happy.

Great people use:
GPr: settle in Paris.
GE: if still available, wouldn't mind at all rushing the mids in Paris. Alternatively, settle (?). Or would it bulb machinery maybe (will check that)? EDIT: Checked, machinery is actually the very first on the GE-bulb list, so could make sense.
GS: Academy. Paris or Rheims? Rheims actually has a higher beaker output already (even if you fire the scientists for coast), but Paris might get bureau-bonus soonish.

Tech. Well, appreciate the idea to try investing something in monarchy to try to setup a monarchy/alpha-deal, but if we do end up having the mids, we can completely forget about monarchy... Or backfill it much later. So not sure. If we go for CS now, we need both CoL and math. But both are known already, but AIs won't trade it. Would need machinery as well for maces, but is a heavy tech to research, especially without bureau. So I don't see a very clear winner here. :p Maybe indeed CoL and hope for a math trade (CoL might actually make good trade fodder to pick up monarchy from WvO or somebody else later as well)? Or math to open up construction as well?


Sengir is indeed up to complete the first round. Then it's back to Cam_H, who is on deck (as a good old pirate should! :D).
 
It would appear that Ragnar is situated south of the dye islands.
Our next set should prioritize scouting that area out...so we don't lose out on any other prime sites. Double dye horse will be an excellent spot with the addition of a seafood resource.

The tech situation is pretty unclear at the moment.

I think right now I like Math to unlock Calendar and Construction hoping that we can trade for CoL and dive right in on Civil Service.

I might also consider Aes and Lit for trade fodder and to unlock National Epic (I would consider the GL if we end up with a GE for the Mids) but that seems a diversion from conquest. Although, we will easily get a Level 4 unit with charismatic. Heroic Epic will be useful with our lack of hammers.

Compass for harbors is going to boost our commerce a great deal so we should trade for that as soon as it is possible.

Math>CoL (via trade)>CS>Construction>Mach seems like the best path right now.

Does anyone else like Lisbon as a potential Globe city???
 
I don't want to sound like a parrot, but I agree with a lot of nocho's post :rolleyes:

If we do get a GE, I'd prefer Machinery bulb.
 
Some more ramblings.

Maybe it's a good idea to switch Rheims to a market immediately. It's near the happy cap, so a granary right here right now is not that urgent. I think we could set up a nice 3-pop whip of a market here and let the overflow (nearly) finish the granary, which at that moment will be more needed for quick regrowth. I'd let the city grow now to size 7 into unhappiness (pre-fur) and whip down to 4 (or maybe it could even go 8->5). With fur and market happy cap will increase by 2, so after that at size 8 it could work 3 sea food, gold and have 2 scientists and 2 merchants and still have a small surplus of 2 food. A market asap in our highest commerce city will be worthwhile all by itself as well ofc.

I'm slightly wary of barb galleys, so I think our trireme in the north should come back and be available for "zone defense" of the east. And escort the galley to iron-island once we have a settler for that. I appreciate it scouting a bit, but it shouldn't get too far off, imo. For the same reason the trireme we get from Lyons shortly can do some scouting near the dyes and horses, but I wouldn't have it make a full tour of the island where the Vikings are (curious we didn't meet them yet btw. Maybe the nearby WB can try to make contact).

I assume the scouting WBs will be used for hooking up sea food for our new cities. IIRC the fur-crab is already within our borders, so maybe the Viking-WB can hook that up, even before we actually settle fur. As noted by cabert, we are close to health caps. Well, it might unfog a bit more north of Rheims as well meanwhile, though again, I'm slightly wary it may run into barb galleys.

Though it's not highly urgent yet, we should start thinking of barracks for the eventual first invasion. Ideally we should have them in place already the moment we can start building maces (and/or cats?). Don't want to lose time having to build barracks first at that moment still. I'm guessing all cities can use them for subsequent mace-whipping/building, maybe apart from Rheims.

On tech I'm still undecided. I do think though we should go asap to CS+Machinery plus maybe construction to get our first invasion going asap. We should seize the advantage when it's still there and preferably before we have to fight numerous longbows on hills... So I'd skip aest+lit for now. Aest is already known by Vicky, so that lessens it's worth as trade fodder. I think we might better just backfill aest+lit later when it's available more widely and when maybe we already have that level 4 unit for HE. Well, once we trade for aest, literature would be a small enough tech to tech ourselves if it's not available at that moment.
Anyway, I "fear" we may just have to tech both CoL and math by ourselves as neither may become available easily nor shortly. Maybe slightly prefer CoL first to math, as I think there's a slightly bigger chance to get math in trade than CoL. At least I'd sit on currency and MC for a while, so then CoL might make trade fodder for math, but the other way around is less likely, also given the beaker values. And CoL will serve better to rake up monarchy.
If we don't get to bulb machinery (only 30ish % chance for a GE and we may not agree on bulbing) we could also go that first, but it seems more natural to me to first go to CS.

Finally, I'm thinking that maybe after fur and iron cities we might settle another city for horse/dye (depending on what we find there), but maybe then we should stop expansion, unless we find an utterly fantastic spot somewhere. With ORG of course we have more leeway expanding, but it'll have its limits as well. Besides, we'll obviously expand through force after that.
 
I used the trireme to fogbust while staying in the vicinity.
Once we have a second trireme, we can double fogbust and still be within reach, for defense zone.

I noted the position of a barb galley to our east on the map. I'm not too wary, because with our free movement point we can outrun barb galleys with ease.

I'd let the granary finish in Reims, because it's simply the best building when you whip.
 
Teching CoL next would most likely let us trade it for Maths and Monarchy. I agree that Aest / Lit can wait for later (trade). Beeline for maces and catapults and conquering Portugal sounds very good :)

We should get those three cities (iron, furs, horse) up quickly and then start to prepare for war.
 
I'm fine with going Math or CoL first.
We should decide which one to tech by determining which one of the two is more likely to be acquired by trade. Then we tech the other.

I wasn't seriously considering going for Aes>Lit next...I was merely thinking out loud without access to the save.

Once the other civs start to meet each other we should see a hotbed of religious strife.
4 different religions are currently being run. We may want to dogpile on someone elses DOW.
After we take out Joao of course!

Not going to comment on the city builds without looking at the save.
But the ideas discussed so far seem to be on point.
 
I'm sorry ...

Great Engineer ... Settle? Bulb Machinery? Honestly, there's only one sensible choice. :egypt:

Great Prophet ... bulb Theology (req. Monotheism via Catherine deal). Massive back-trade value.

Also not wanting to sound like a Parrot, but agree with nocho that a Settler would seem like a good move in Lyons.

I'd like to see if there is seafood in the fog of that eastern Horse city (which we will next turn). If we want to settle that island, it might help determine the right spot for Iron-Clams-Clams.
 
City builds:
Paris: Finish Colossus manually; put a turn in the galley to prevent decay. Other option is to start Marketplace right away and 2- or 3-pop-whip it for overflow into the Colossus. This would get us the Colossus at about the same time, but would give us a marketplace at the cost of lower population (as the marketplace gives us a happy, the whip is neutral). After that it can slowly grow, while the whipanger decays and start building our navy, which we're going to need pretty soon

Orleans: Start settler at size 4 > Whip it > overflow into LH > Granary

Rheims: Start Marketplace and whip it

Lyons: Trireme > Settler (whip) > Worker (does the bug also includes workers? then I'd go worker first as we really need a couple more).

Tours: Whip WB > Overflow into Moai > Granary > Moai > Barracks

Marseilles: LH > Lib > Granary > Monument


Tech:
I'd start on CoL, try to get Math in trade. Then onto CS + Machinery.


GP:
I'll stop when the GP is born, so we can make a decision based on what kind of GP we get.

Worker:
Stop the cottage and move it to the Grass Hill at Tours for mining. Not sure whether he has time to build the other mine as well before he has to move on to either Iron or Fur city. Also depends on Lyons spitting out workers.

Misc:
Have scouting WB's return for hooking up resources. Keep triremes close, only explore nearby islands.
 
Sengir, sounds like a plan :). I do like the idea of whipping market in Paris and putting the overflow for colossus.
 
the market doesn't give us a happy unless you get a settler on the fur AND tech hunting or trade for a happy resource somewhere

edit : the "bug" (it's a feature, really) includes the workers (unhappy and unhealthy food loss doesn't count)
 
In general I like the plan.

I only have some reservations about whipping the market in Paris. While in principle it may be a good idea, I think it does delay Colossus maybe a bit too much. Without seeing the save, let me do this calculation...

Market costs 150h normally, 225h on epic. A whip is 45h. So if we 3-pop whip the market for maximum overflow, we first need to invest slightly less than 225-2*45=135h in it. We make 12hpt in Paris, so that would be 11 turns for 11*12h=132h. If the whip is to go to Colussus that'd give about 42h in overflow (not counting the bronze bonus yet). Colossus is 250*1.5=375h on epic, IIRC right now we still have 8 turns to go with our 12hpt+bronze bonus, so we still need something short of 192h. So we get 84h in overflow but then still need another 100-110h to finish Colossus, which would be 5 turns. However, if we whip we likely don't have the population to make 12hpt, so it'd be more turns. We could continue Colossus first and switch to market until max overflow would finish the job immediately, but then we'd still be looking at a minimum of 11+5=16 turns. With respect to finishing the Colossus now that's 8 turns of a difference, which would amount to at least 80 commerce lost (we have about 10 sea food resources being worked now, as a minimum of tiles that get an effective Colossus bonus by being worked). We also miss out on some GPP and might run a slightly bigger (though still minimal, granted) risk of losing out on Colossus. I don't think the earlier market really makes up for that.

Also we'll likely get decay of hammers on that galley. I'm not entirely sure how decay works, but I'm under the impression that even if you work on it for a turn (postponing Colossus even more...) the decay will happily continue next turn when you work something else again. On the other hand, I seem to recall (and I noticed the same in earlier tests) that the BUG/BUFFY message about when something starts to decay is not correct on epic. The message doesn't seem to take into account the game speed. So it actually starts to decay later than when it says it will.

Anyway, I think it's better to just finish the Colossus now. A market is nice, but by itself I find it a rather expensive building for the benefit, especially with the slider still well over 50%. We'll settle more cities which will drain the coffers, but Colossus also counters that. So while I like a market in Paris, I'm not entirely convinced yet about cost/benefit in any case. I see Rheims' market as more compelling, in case you wonder, as eventually I'd like to hire merchants after the scientists (it can support 4 specs). I don't see us hire merchants in Paris for time to come (engineer and scientists would go first, if we hire anything beyond the engineer in the first palce).

To add, I think we can use that galley from Paris rather soon as well. Maybe it can be done optimally with just the 1 galley we have now, but if we get that 2nd worker and if we get 2 settlers roughly around the same time, it might prove a bit complicated moving them all around with just 1 galley to different destinations, without workers and settlers being idle on their respective islands for too much time.

I'm not very sure about the timing and current whip anger in Paris, but conceivably you *might* continue Colossus for a bit, then switch to galley and do a simple 1 pop whip for good overflow to finish Colossus. Possibly that could be a whip from pop 6 to 5. Then to let whip anger decay it could build yet another settler for dye/horses if that proves to be an attractive spot.

Sorry for this wall of text to talk about just 1 city. Good I agree with the other cities. ;)

Oh, by the time we settle fur, indeed make a trade for hunting. I guess we should be able to get it in a larger deal as a side goody. If we go CoL first, we'll have that a bit before we likely have the settler in place, so that'd be convenient for bartering CoL around.

Good idea to make a break when the GP is born, the discussion will be more easy when we can focus on just one type of great person. :)
 
I saw a dream were AlanH posted in this thread and recommended us to go straight to Colossus :D

(and I'm not kidding)
 
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